Bail DD out of jail - another DUI charge bf's crack pipe in car

[Think About It...]

This time I feel OK with paying the $500 bond and allowing her to be in our house while she waits for her preliminary hearing. Her bond conditions are very close to what will be there under probation. Since she refused the blood test the DMV revoked her license for 1 year - the police took her license away. I saw the revocation form she signed. She has to check in with the case worker at community justice center who is managing the court ordered monitoring for drugs and alcohol. She has random breathilizers and UA's. She mostly slept through this first week in a kind of depression. I see her starting to wake up now - ie. wanting her pot back to settle her nerves. The 6 week wait for her next hearing gives her lots of time to think and worry. Being at home she can take care of her health - be on her meds., eat good food, smoke her cigarettes ;p . She is pre-diabetic and the high-carb jail food is really hard on her health. Was the same while homeless - free feeds were a lot of carbs. She is allergic to lots of foods too.

DD has been in jail before - 3 days for her first DUI Feb 2009, though she was so sick from her extreme alcohol levels it didn't really have much impact. She pleaded guilty and started probation - did not take it serious. Was doing lots of narcotics with new bf - ended up in a big fight when he attacked her to break up with her - they both ended up in jail. We did not bail her out, and got a RO to keep her from coming home. My 'enough is enough' point. She was in jail 65 days, pleaded guilty to 3rd degree assualt to get out of jail with time served and no probation. But living homeless could not manage the rest of her DUI probation and ended up with 30 days in jail to finish that sentence in Aug 2010. This was not a good experience for her - she was transferred to another county jail and they never got her registered in their computer system. I had trouble getting a phone account set up for her (we had rescinded the RO before this). She was not on the list for  clean clothes for a couple of weeks . I am sure the stories she told me were not the 'whole truth' - overheard her with friends after she got out and saw some of her paperwork left lying around kitchen. She was in 24 lock down a couple times for her attitude, under-her-breath comments with the meds nurse.

Based on this last experience she really seems motivated to stay out of jail this time. My job is to STAY OUR OF HER WAY. I just need to keep praying that they offer her the PACE program (partnership probation/mental health) and she is willing to work it. If they convict her on the DUI-2nd offense charge she will have a mandatory 10 day jail sentence and probably 2 years probation. The only way for her to get through this as an indigent person (no money) is in the PACE program, or the Drug Court Diversion Program. The PACE would be better since it has the mental health peice - she gets county disabilty benefits for mental health already-very small stipend. At least until they find out she has been denied on her SSI recently. The alternative sentence is 90days-1 year in jail plus lots of fines. The programs waive or reduce most of these fines and fees.

It is just way too complicated. I get obsessed with all the options. And from past experience I believe she can only hold her current level of panic in control by not getting too much information. I need to allow the system to give her the info she needs as she needs it. I tend to dump it all on her at once - my own stress relief. She has a check in with her court case worker in a couple weeks.

So I am focusing on enjoying gd6, being present when at my job, and trying to not think about DD all the time - or talk with dh about her every chance I get. He is getting good at saying enough - and I am getting better at being quiet. Need to find ways to quiet my mind in the middle of the night. gd woke me about 2 for bathroom moment and i struggled to go back to sleep. the melatonin is just not working right now.

I really really need you all to keep talking to me. This support is helping me keep my focus on letting go of DD - she is in capable hands with the court system. After all the reading on DUi's in Colorado I have done - there is so much help there for her. She just has to find the courage and willingness to do it. That is my prayer for her - guidance, courage, willingness. And to remember that she has her own higher power putting angels in her path.

qcr  

[qcarolr]

This time I feel OK with paying the $500 bond and allowing her to be in our house while she waits for her preliminary hearing. Her bond conditions are very close to what will be there under probation. Since she refused the blood test the DMV revoked her license for 1 year - the police took her license away. I saw the revocation form she signed. She has to check in with the case worker at community justice center who is managing the court ordered monitoring for drugs and alcohol. She has random breathilizers and UA's. She mostly slept through this first week in a kind of depression. I see her starting to wake up now - ie. wanting her pot back to settle her nerves. The 6 week wait for her next hearing gives her lots of time to think and worry. Being at home she can take care of her health - be on her meds., eat good food, smoke her cigarettes ;p . She is pre-diabetic and the high-carb jail food is really hard on her health. Was the same while homeless - free feeds were a lot of carbs. She is allergic to lots of foods too.

DD has been in jail before - 3 days for her first DUI Feb 2009, though she was so sick from her extreme alcohol levels it didn't really have much impact. She pleaded guilty and started probation - did not take it serious. Was doing lots of narcotics with new bf - ended up in a big fight when he attacked her to break up with her - they both ended up in jail. We did not bail her out, and got a RO to keep her from coming home. My 'enough is enough' point. She was in jail 65 days, pleaded guilty to 3rd degree assualt to get out of jail with time served and no probation. But living homeless could not manage the rest of her DUI probation and ended up with 30 days in jail to finish that sentence in Aug 2010. This was not a good experience for her - she was transferred to another county jail and they never got her registered in their computer system. I had trouble getting a phone account set up for her (we had rescinded the RO before this). She was not on the list for  clean clothes for a couple of weeks . I am sure the stories she told me were not the 'whole truth' - overheard her with friends after she got out and saw some of her paperwork left lying around kitchen. She was in 24 lock down a couple times for her attitude, under-her-breath comments with the meds nurse.

Based on this last experience she really seems motivated to stay out of jail this time. My job is to STAY OUR OF HER WAY. I just need to keep praying that they offer her the PACE program (partnership probation/mental health) and she is willing to work it. If they convict her on the DUI-2nd offense charge she will have a mandatory 10 day jail sentence and probably 2 years probation. The only way for her to get through this as an indigent person (no money) is in the PACE program, or the Drug Court Diversion Program. The PACE would be better since it has the mental health peice - she gets county disabilty benefits for mental health already-very small stipend. At least until they find out she has been denied on her SSI recently. The alternative sentence is 90days-1 year in jail plus lots of fines. The programs waive or reduce most of these fines and fees.

It is just way too complicated. I get obsessed with all the options. And from past experience I believe she can only hold her current level of panic in control by not getting too much information. I need to allow the system to give her the info she needs as she needs it. I tend to dump it all on her at once - my own stress relief. She has a check in with her court case worker in a couple weeks.

So I am focusing on enjoying gd6, being present when at my job, and trying to not think about DD all the time - or talk with dh about her every chance I get. He is getting good at saying enough - and I am getting better at being quiet. Need to find ways to quiet my mind in the middle of the night. gd woke me about 2 for bathroom moment and i struggled to go back to sleep. the melatonin is just not working right now.

I really really need you all to keep talking to me. This support is helping me keep my focus on letting go of DD - she is in capable hands with the court system. After all the reading on DUi's in Colorado I have done - there is so much help there for her. She just has to find the courage and willingness to do it. That is my prayer for her - guidance, courage, willingness. And to remember that she has her own higher power putting angels in her path.

qcr  

[Matt]

I think from your Al-Anon you are probably very familiar with the concept of "rock bottom" - when someone has experienced something that finally motivates her to change...

...and I think I've told my story about that - my son doing 4 months in state prison - a really bad and humiliating experience - and telling me very sincerely that he was never going to drink again - and I'm convinced that he meant it - and then relapsing less than 48 hours after coming home.  He hadn't hit his "rock bottom" - really hard for me to accept, but there's no way to gauge how strong the drug's grip is on someone.  We can only know what was really someone's rock bottom afterward - long afterward - when they have climbed out of that behavior.

So...I wonder if you are thinking each time, "Surely this is her rock bottom." (like I did).  And not fully accepting that what looks like a pretty darn good reason to make changes to you, doesn't impact her in the same way, because of the disease...?

(I realize I'm projecting my own experiences - maybe your mind works differently.  But, just as there are very clear patterns common to most addicts, from what I've seen, there are also very clear patterns common to most of us who are to some degree co-dependent - which I think means most parents of addicts.  We don't all deal with it the same, but we seem to go through pretty much the same struggles...)

[lbjnltx]

dearest qcarol,

i have been praying daily that God would provide a way for your dd to get and accept the help that will turn her life around in every way.  i also pray that when that help comes you will have the strength and faith to allow it to happen.  as meer human beans we can't always see or understand how God answers prayers...it is a mystery indeed...having faith is the key..."all things work for the good of those who love Him and live according to His purposes..".

interfering with His plan may also mean interfering with the road to recovery of mental, addiction, and spiritual healing.  let go and let God.  listen for His voice, look for His hand at work in all of this, when things look the darkest He is hardest at work on your and your dd behalf.  

lbjnltx

[qcarolr]

lbj - thank you for your prayers and reminders. Even tho I know all these things - in my mind - it is so hard to practice them in my feelings and actions.

This is DD's life. I cannot know what is in her mind or heart, and my assumptions based on the tidbits she shares are so unfounded. So I am trying to let her know only the things that are important in our household each day. Like she cannot bring pot back into our house even if she gets her waiver.

Some reading of the Dalai Lama today, a man of wisdom, has given me something to think on today other than DD.

"If you have fear of some pain or suffering, you should examine whether there is anything you can do about it. If you can, there is no need to worry about it; if you cannot do anything, then also there is no need to worry."  In other words, let go and let GOD.

"In dealing with those who are undergoing great suffering, if you feel "burnout" setting in, if you feel demoralized and exhausted, it is best, for the sake of everyone, to withdraw and restore yourself. The point is to have a long-term perspective."

Off to work now.
qcr

[Reality]

dear qcaroir
I was thinking a long time yesterday about the Dalai Lama.  I have lost a son.  He has lost his country and still he moves about our world, smiling such kindness and joy.  On with my robes!  Every time I read one of your posts I learn something helpful, because you are so good at clearly articulating the content of each twist and turn. 
I guess if we face the eternal, we will be moving towards...or at least seeing something beautiful and reflecting.
Reality

[qcarolr]

These thoughts stirred quietly in the background of my day. Work, drive for gd, drive to child T, drive home, meet neighborhood at park - seemed like all the kids and moms were there enjoying the 75 degree afternoon, walk gd's friend home, get back home. dh grumping about that DD left angry to get BA for her bond monitoring - he let G drive and reminded DD she cannot drive. GROWL - it was as bad as I could imagine when she got home. I did reasonably well at keeping my voice down, breathing, and asking her to take a break to cool down, which she refused as usual - so said she needed to cool off or she would be evicted withing 3 days. dh and gd and i went out for a burger. gd's comment sometime during this "gramma, is this more grownup stuff?". She is so smart.

dh and I are both confused about best action tonight. we talk about getting lawyer to at least do free eval of her case. her friends back her up that they were doing nothing wrong that night - no drugs or alcohol. So I was able somehow to stop thinking about what I needed to say and just say what was in my gut and in my heart and on my mind - maybe just a little bit of Wise Mind tonight. It seemed to work. First told DD that i never intend to make her feel angry or disbelieved. I only want to help make things better and for so very long any time I intervene it seems to make things worse. Whether she is innocent or not of DUI, she refused blood test - the sheriffs at jail refused to do BA or UA. So the DMV takes her license for a year. That is the law - not much anyone can do about that. She is feeling trapped and isolated in our basement, unable to get out to see her friends. Also the final denial of her SSI is a big blow to her plans to become more independent. Still need to find a lawyer willing to take the case to district court by end of March. I offered to find a DUI lawyer to do at least an eval of her case. Maybe the result is that the PD can do as much as a private lawyer. If they think they can help minimize jail time, we can see how much they will cost and what kind of payment plan they will offer. We would be loaning the money to DD. We can borrow the funds if our equity line comes through next week - it is in process. This will ease my worry and maybe give DD an outside source of support to ease her panic. Then she will be better able to cope with whatever is to come. Still will be facing monitoring until the case is settled.

While tucking gd into bed DD came and gave her a big hug, gave me a big hug and an apology for the yelling and name calling, then gave dh a big hug and apology too. She seemed to be breathing again - color back in her face.

Then heard water hissing when putting clothes in dryer - hot water heater going out. YIKES, don't need this $500 repair, but not much choice. Then dh's truck has a big crack in the windshield - most likely a basketball bounce from the kids. Another $300 - this will have to wait now. Then the $575 for bond, the SSI denied, the puppy died $225 for vet. I ask GOD - isn't this enough for now? I am just waiting for my weak tooth to break from the clenched jaw - that would be another $1000.

So have to let this all go, and trust that God has my best interest out there for me to find. One day at a time, one day at a time.

Not sure where this fits with everything I have been pondering - need to give DD access to her due process rights and for us all to know what to expect. And she needs someone to speak on her behalf in court as her emotions can get her in deeper. And she most likely will still have significant consequences - maybe this is the time for some change to happen, and maybe not. This is out of my hands.

So will try to get better sleep tonight. Did not sleep well past few nights. But did get lots of sunshine today - that is always good. And support of life in general from sharing trials of other moms at the park. Supposed to snow tomorrwo - colorado weather for you. Then in the 70's again on by Friday.

qcr  

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[Matt]

Maybe you and your husband could decide now - before talking to any attorneys in detail - what your upper limit might be.  Maybe even tell your daughter that.  Then your daughter can talk to as many attorneys as she wants to, and see if she can find one to take the case for that much or less.  And she can also find a public defender (I think) so at least her rights will be protected.

I got my son a very good attorney for his first two DUIs.  On one of those - he was unquestionably guilty of all of them - the attorney had him plead innocent so he could have a "bench" trial (in front of a judge not jury).  The attorney questioned the police officer about his report, and was able to show that the officer was not telling the truth about one issue (whether my son had blood on his shirt).  It really didn't matter - his blood test showed he was drunk and the officer saw him driving the car, and my son even admitted it.  But once the attorney showed that the officer had lied, the case was weak, so the prosecutor asked to talk with the defense attorney, and they worked out a plea agreement - a reduced charge and 24 hours in jail (rather than several weeks).

On his third DUI, I decided not to pay for an attorney, and my son had a public defender.  The PD never met my son til court - literally introduced himself to my son right there in front of the judge, and said, "How do you want to plead?" and then repeated the plea.  Basically all he did was make sure the process was done right (which it would have been anyway) - a nice guy (he talked with me later) but very overworked so he did zero preparation.

A paid attorney is likely to produce better results, but at a significant cost - my son's attorney cost $5,000 if I remember right.

By telling your daughter, "If you can find a good attorney, we'll loan you the money, but the limit is $X, and please don't ask for more." then you won't get sucked into a huge bill.

One thing I did when I faced issues like this was think about the other things I could do with that money, like put it in my younger kids' college fund.

The other thing to consider is - leaving aside the need to make sure your daughter's rights are protected, which even a public defender can do - whether it is really in your daughter's interest to get a lesser consequence, if in fact she was driving under the influence.  I had to consider that, when the attorney got my son a 24-hour sentence;  later I had to wonder, if he had gotten a longer sentence then, whether maybe he might have gotten his drinking under control before getting in even more trouble.

[Thursday]

qcarolr,

Your update has a lot going on within the paragraphs. I so very much see my S/Os heart in many of your postings although he isn't a worrier. (afterall, that is my job ). It helps me understand him to read what other parents have to say (oh my, he confuses me sometimes but I   him so much) and I know it is very important he be able to detach  from at least some of his desire to paint Sd with what I call the brush of denial. 

I don't know if getting to the truth is important for you. It IS for me and for my S/O. So, in light of that, if your DDs friends are telling you that everyone was sober that day, maybe they have a reason to do so. Maybe your DD asked them to tell you this- seems understandable. I don't know which friends are telling you that there were no drugs or alcohol that day...are they friends that get rides in your car? Obviously bfG has a reason to stay on your good side.

Truly q, if  she was sober, why would she have refused the very important "truth" found within the drug test? After the fact, she seems keenly interested in you understanding that she was sober. In the past my SD would actually be excited to test if she knew she was clean, almost kindof an "in your face" attitude. Always, if she knew the test would show she was using, she would hem and haw, make excuses, stall the process, ask leading questions such as "I ate a bunch of poppy seed bagels wouldn't that make it turn positive?" (we were testing for benzos, so...NO and really, on what planet did SD purchase or borrow a "bunch of poppy seed bagels". I never buy poppy seed bagels and in my knowlege, SD doesn't seek out such foods, Cheetos are more like it) She would always confess in the end with some sort of minimalization of how much of the drug she did...it was always just once a few days before) and many times we were able to save the expensive tests for another time...a good thing!

Your DD has a lot to lose if she crosses that line you have about her staying sober as evidenced by you reminding her about three day eviction if she can't hold things together. She cools down and quickly gives apology. That speaks LOUDLY to me. And tells me that your boundary about no drugging is effective. Well, let's hear it for an effective, useful boundary. Remember this if you waver in your resolve. She doesn't want to be out on the streets anymore.

OK, now a recent story. Before SD came into the chunk of money from her GM, reported by me here in January, she asked her Dad to "loan" her money so that she and friends could go to an event at Universal studios. It was 50 bucks to get in. She even had a plan for paying him back. At that point he was still giving her money every week for her cigarettes and gasoline. She was working but only very part time. He ran this by me before giving her the money. I was really appalled. How was she going to pay him back if, even though working part time he was still funding her? She had explained that she had extra money on the next paycheck that she was going to use to pay him back. I asked him if he was still going to give her money for cigs and gas and he said he was. How then was this payback anything more than his paying for a nice outing for her if he was going to let her use her extra money on paycheck to pay him back AND still give her money for her cigs and gas.

In my mind if you loan someone money there has to be something in place that will enable them to pay you back. And that something is not a fantasy plan. (Ok, I know that sounds pretty harsh! )There is much to be gained, learning wise, when you loan someone money with a plan for payback and you follow through.
All my S/O did in this case was give her money. She didn't have a way to pay him back.

And true to my SDs typical form, the next paycheck came and there were no extra dollars. She had "calculated" wrong. S/O was sunk and since there had been a minor stink between the two of us about my thinking if she wanted to go to this event and she had extra money coming in a paycheck maybe she should WAIT to go to the event until she could pay for it herself...he was embarrased to tell me that she had once again, tricked him into paying for something frivolous. It was extra sad because even though she is doing much better this was certainly a replay of old, predictable behaviors. He had a choice of another way of dealing with her, a way that would have put something on HER and a way where he didn't have to feel guilty for enabling her.

And you know what? She got this huge money from her grandmother only a few months after this and HAS NEVER OFFERED TO PAY HIM BACK. We are running on fumes here, so broke. At this point she has way, way more money than we do. Still, he takes her to lunch once a week. She orders the most expensive thing on the menu and has never batted an eye nor reached for the check when it comes. (she has explained the difference between HER money (it's hers) and his money (it's there to help her)).

So, I am wondering, if she is to pay you back, is this just high hopes or is there a plan?  I would come up with a plan, chores, yard work, etc. and make her start NOW before any more moola leaves your pocket.

Bottom line, when someone borrows money and can't pay it back isn't that a failure? In my SD's case, the less personal failures she racks up the better. Low self esteem building isn't our goal here. I was SO PISSED at my s/o for allowing all of this to occur. I'm pissed that the second she got that money that he didn't put out his hand to her. Don't let her just gloss over her promise...even if she has forgotten, don't YOU forget, s/o. Grr.

This is a side bar...you mention that your DD is good at laundry. Maybe she could take in neighbor's laundry and do it for pay? Charge her for use of machine, soap and electricity. Help her structure how she accomplishes this, an easy to follow chart? A checklist of what is brought in and what leaves to keep her organized?

So I was able somehow to stop thinking about what I needed to say and just say what was in my gut and in my heart and on my mind

GOOD JOB! Sometimes, the truth has to get SAID outloud especially these truths of your gut. There is a place, inside the BPD's head and heart and gut, where they know they are not acting right, no matter how disregulated, and they can hear at least some of what we need them to. If everyone pussyfoots around this, do they ever hear it? This is some of what I struggle with. S/O will do A LOT to avoid any sort of nasty confrontation with her. This has only added to our problems. That and his really hating to tell her NO (due to big rages when he has pulled it out of his soul and hung firm with her and due to a lifetime of giving her what she wants when she wants it because...because...I couldn't tell you why). Or course, you do have to chose your battles, you have to chose a time when they can hear...during a rage, not going to happen. My best time for true talk was when I was driving her someplace. We didn't have to face each other eye to eye and at the end, she could escape to her activity. She hardly ever raged or cried when she had something to do on the end side.

These are my buttinski thoughts. I hope there is something useful in here for someone. A BPD kid/adultkid is a lot of work, isn't it? No rest for the weary.

thursday

[peaceplease]

qcr,

I agree with much of what thursday posted.  Your dd had a reason for refusing blood test.  If she was going to fight the charge, that actually works out to benefit if client is found not guilty.  But, if test shows positive results for controlled substance, then license is still revoked. 

And, IMHO, you should not get a loan for an attorney.  I was in your place, and seriously considered getting a loan.  And, that was the year I paid to cover an overdrawn account.  It was forgotten by her when she received her income tax refund last year.  However, she did make up for it, this year.  My point is that she would have never made enough to pay back the loan that I would still be paying on, today.  And, perhaps a lesson was learned.  After, I gave her the money and she never repaid me, I proised to never help her, again. (After my T really reprimanded me for doing so.  It really helped me to enforce my boundaries.  I did a 180 degree turnaround after that)  I stuck to that, too. 

Just realize that it will not be a loan.  $3,000-5,000.

OTOH, a public defender does just look at the case before going before the judge.  However, it is free. 

I understand what you are going through.  I am really sorry.  Just really give it a lot of thought.

 
peaceplease

[Kidnapped]

Gotta say, I had the same response.  She's not going to the electric chair.  She's going to not drive, and be grounded by the county for a little while.  That's all.  It's not a life or death thing, it's only another drama thing. 

Here - I'll bring the drama just for a sec:
 
Only days ago, you were contemplating hiring a lawyer to keep the fight for her SSI going. (A fight she has not been willing to actively participate in by staying i some minimal amount of treatment, I might add.)  But it's ok, because you can make up for her own poor judgment.  After all,  hanging out with her friends and dumpster diving are far more profitable uses of her time, correct? Bu that's ok. You will have a home equity line to make up for dd's lakc of income. Problem solved!

Or, if that's not interesting enough, she can threaten you again with violence so that you have to call the cops to your house.  And do you bail her out THAT time?  Do you dig deeper to hire a lawyer to defend her, because she has no job and blew her money and after all...all she was gonna do is kill you?  She has rights...right?  Or at least she'd try to put you in the hospital.  But that's ok...you will have a home equity line to pay for the lawyer and the bail and the medical costs, right?   Problem solved!

Well, ok. At least the SSI case holds the possibility of some kind of return for dd, even if  the expense never finds its way back into your own pocket.  It at least holds the potential for trading having dd drain your pockets throughout the month into a lump sum payment. Unless you dig deep for the next little drama, of course.  And THEN you can sacrifice your home for that one.  But you've got that covered.  Problem solved! 

Ohhhh. But this new 'crisis' has you trying the case in your head and in the court of bff's.  Didn't cost a dime. And of course, she was found innocent of all charges. So. Problem solved!

But uh-oh!  The county disagrees.  And dd needs to be protected from the police force that you called when she appeared to be the bigger threat...because  they're the bad guys, right? Arresting dd is only ok when you say it is, right?  And we know that works, because she stopped threating you with violence and settled for just getting your car impounded.
But that's ok.  You were able to make bail an pay the impounds on your car.  Plus, you don't have to let dd borrow your car any more, and you still have enough gas money to take
gd to the T so she can find her way through the mama drama.  Problem solved1

Still have to fix that thingie with the county, though.  Borrowing your home equity to pay for defending acts which will be defended anyway is ok.  After all,  dd will pay you back. She ALWAYS pays you back, right?  Soon as you pay for the lawyer to  get that SSI claim through for her so she'll have some cash.  THERE you go. Problem solved!   

Ohhhh, forgot.  When the snow is gone, you can sell the trailer to finance whichever crisis is at hand by then. so you're good to go.  Plus, there's still some snow. So you'll have time to practice explaining to gd why you have to say no to so many things because dd 'needs' all the family resources instead.  But, you still have enough gas money to take her to the T so she can get through this.  Bingo. Problem solved!

So all that's left to do after that is moving out of the house and into the street yourself so you won't have to make those silly house payments any more.  And since you won't have the house payments or the travel trailer...might as well skip the credit card payments, too.  You don't need it any more, because you're free to go dumpster diving so you can save up for bail money and a lawyer next time.  Problem solved!

And life is pretty good now, because now you'll have even more money for gas to run gd to the T so that she can learn to deal with the screaming 'grownup stuff'.  And besides - if you ever DID run out of gas money, bfG will doutless be living in your other car, there to mediate all concerns so that you can do it dd's way because after all, she knows better. bfG said so nicely, didn't he?  So it MUST be true!  HAH! Problem solved!

And they all lived happiy ever after.

The end.
*****************************************

Sorry 'bout that, carol.  I just don't know how the heck else to shake your awarenes back to earth and reality. 

You just can't fix this with lawyers and money.  And you can't fix it by protecting the very person who brings the harm.   These people and events don't live in the space between your ears where love and compassion alone will conquer all and lead to a bright new future, even though it's a beautiful place in there.   

Nope.  These things live on the ground, where resources are limited, and learning new things can be really tough.  Where lessons get repeated over and over until you finally get them.   Where all the nice talk in the world doesn't un-change a little child's experiences.   It's not a bad place, just a physical place.  Where pointing your mom's car the wrong way at the wrong speed at the wrong place can get you or somebody else squished until they can't stay here any more and all the sorry in the world can't make time go backwards, and all the attorneys in the world can't make you learn what you needed to know. It's a place where other humans may try to stop you from learning the worst way by giving you a safer way to learn that lesson...unless your mom gets in their way enough, anyhow.

It's ok to not like it.  It's ok to wish with all your might that you could fix all the boo-boos and make them better.   That's the hardest, hardest part - to love them just like they are right here on earth and accept that they will get some boo-boos we can't fix.  It's ok not to like that part one little bit...and roll with it anyway.  That's the one that takes all your heart and guts and prayers to do - to not have all the answers, and not have to fix everything.  You've got all the stuff.  Just gotta trust it, that's all.

Keeping a good thought on you today!
   

[lbjnltx]

wow kidnapped!

at a loss for words to type that wouldn't be unkind.

lbjnltx

[Thursday]

Kidnapped,

I understand your excellent intentions. I can see you (and me too) are trying to help qcarolr sort out her feelings, find the path again, gain clarity, step out of some fogginess that comes from the extreme situation she finds herself in.

I do think, in the words of Alicia Silverstone's Clueless character Cher,

"that was way harsh"

Thursday

[Matt]

A common problem on this site:  how to offer ideas intended to be helpful, and make them very clear, and also be kind.

Sometimes "blunt" is exactly what's needed.  Other times it pushes people away.  In Real Life, we can look each other in the eyes, and sense if our words aren't helping, and dial it back a little.  Here, we don't have that feedback, so it's hard to gauge what is helping and what is hurting.

qcarolr, you'll have to guide us on this please - let us know if you need more TOUGH love, or more tough LOVE.

[Kidnapped]

Not meant as unkind or harsh in the least, beyond just putting it out there as the tough scenario it wants to become.  Sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable.  

I think carol knows I see in her kindness and the love she holds for her family, and that I know it's a beautiful thing - beyond all comparison.  I know this thing is very, very difficult and painful for her to navigate from moment to moment.  She's been getting emotionally beat up for years with all this stuff, and she doesn't deserve that.  What I want is for her to have a way to say stop. No more.  Not to other people, but to herself - so that she can be happy and bring her loving, beautiful stuff to the table rather than the worried conflicted stuff.   What she has as a human and as a mother and wife is SO valuable and SO strong.  

Sometimes, when you just take things all the way down to their ugliest, darkest-possible place, it can make clear where the light really is.   Just go alllll the way there and see what it would look like, if our confused children got to have it all their way.  This could already all have gone so much worse than it did.  But that DIDN'T happen.   It could all become so much worse. But that doesn't HAVE to happen.  And it doesn't HAVE to be the horrendous struggle it has been for so long.  You get to take all that  tremendous amount of love and care and use it to make radically different choices.  But it has to begin with each of us - not the others in our lives.  They can't do that.  They don't know how.  

carol, I hope that you're feelin' it the way I'm dealin' it.   If anything I said early made you think, "That's crazy!"  or "That's just plain stupid!",  then you saw that I purposely took everything to the very wildest extremes only to make the point.  We CAN'T live like that!  That's not who we are or what we want for ourselves or our children. It IS too ugly and too mean.  Maybe they can't see where they're going or appreciate the effects of their actions on others. But we can.  If we can dare to look without prettying it up at all, then we can choose something vastly different for them AND for ourselves.  Because that's all it really is  - their demands against our reality.      
    
(And the next time I get MY emotional behind kicked and all confused, I hereby invite any one of you to put it right in my face, too.  Help me get my head clear and my feet back on the ground, because I can't always do it on my own, either.  Don't pretty it up.  Unicorns and rainbows have not once helped me do a good reality check.  I promise, I'll know you mean the very best and would not do me harm.)
      

[GameGirl]

Kidnapped

I think that your intentions are good, but that was really, really harsh.  It reminds me of 12 step hard core addict talk, which is all well and good in some situations but not in this one for a simple reason.  The addicts on this site are all suffering from co occuring disorder - addiction and mental illness.  That is a totally different situation, one in which I think is not well served by the "in your face" approach.  This situation is just not that simple.

I like the Alanon saying"

Mean what you say
Say what you mean
and don't say it mean.

[Reality]

gamegirl
My understanding of BPD is that the substance abuse is part of the criteria, so from that perspective it is not a concurrent disorder persay.  This different paradigm is critical when seeking treatment.  As I mentioned in another post, DBT has been found to be very helpful with the substance abuse piece and thus offers a one stop treatment, which has been the correct model for my son. 
These kids are complex nuanced thinkers.  A dialectical approach frees up the ambivalence problem and the black and white thinking.  I am a huge fan of Radical Acceptance and Skills Training. 
Nothing like Kindness and Cognition and Common Sense.
I am finding this post very dialectical and helpful with all the points of view.
Reality

[blackandwhite]

This thread has been reopened at the threadhost's requests. These are serious matters, and our emotions and hearts get engaged. We ask members to be mindful of our guidelines on advising and supporting others:

Advising and Supporting Others: Members shall offer only compassionate, well founded, fact based advice. While it is anticipated that most members have little or no formal training in therapy, members are expected to read and have some reasonable foundation before giving advice to others. Collectively the membership is here to learn and grow as a group and it is important that we not recycle or reinforce incorrect or unhealthy ideas.

Members should offer advice as peer opinions targeted directly to the host of the thread. Members shall be patient and understanding of other members that are in different stages of the learning or healing process or have different opinions that their own.

Members critiquing, or challenging the advise of others should offer their comments in a respectful, positive and constructive manner. Members should respect and embrace the opinions of others, not deride them, and recognize diversity is an important part of the learning process. Forum is the exchange of ideas, not a debate or an argument to be won. Our common interests and goals are what brings us together - let it not be what comes between us.

Member should not "hijack" the threads of others by changing the subject. All posts should be targeted to the subject matter introduced by the host of the thread. Our individual thoughts and ideas are important to each of us.

Thank you.

B&W

[Thursday]

I've participated in another bulletin board that was not moderated and things often got heated, sometimes ugly.

I appreciate the moderation, however, I think everyone did very well.

I especially appreciate that qcarolr asked for the thread to be reopened. That's what I call facing it. 

Also deserving of kudos...kidnapped. Your reply to my "way harsh" quote was clear and thoughtful. I never doubted your best intentions and your words reaffirmed them.

I feel like everybody here has everybody's back. Heartwarming.

From ODAT (alanon publication One Day at a Time)

"Let not my thinking become confused by listening to too many opinions, but let me consider each one individually to see if it can be of help to me."

Thursday

[Kidnapped]

Know what, thursday?  It's ok.  I had a moment there, same as carol.  But I needed to stop and take a good look at my own actions, too.  I might not have, but for the criticisms.
So thank you for that.  It was a good thing.

Best part, I absolutely agree, is that we got through it ok.   Flaming and closed threads happen all over the internet.  It's re-opened threads and making peace that's the truly rare thing.  Funny thing is, I used to mod a large board where I had to be the one closing threads because people were not treating one another well.  Can't recall a single instance where the members and mods sorted it out like this.  I'm grateful today because I actually got to see that happen.  You guys are alllll right.  More than all right.  I'm glad to have the opportunity to know you.

kidnapped
     

[Reality]

My friends, the Jungians, call this process holding the tension.  Wow!  I think they had this dialectical piece figured out long ago.
When that happens, new life begins.
So cool to witness the process.
Reality