Those of you who left...

[Think About It...]

 Hi! Most of the time I hold fairly strictly to my position on the Staying board, but I have some questions that can only be asked to you guys and gals.

Advice on this would be welcome from any of you, but to be honest, I am looking mostly for replies from people who were in long term r/s's that involved children (yours, theirs, only yours) and DV was involved.

Some of you may have transitioned from staying or undecided and know my story, but for those of you who don't, my H is uNPD, with a bit of uBPD as well. He is occasionally very violent, and rages nearly every day.

He, being a narcissist, really doesn't think there is anything wrong with how he behaves and doesn't know yet exactly how I feel about it.

So, while I am still really hoping that some miracle will happen and my marriage can be saved, I do realize it's not likely.

I guess mostly what I am looking for is a catalog of breakup stories... the straw that broke the camels back, how you told them, how they took it. I have a serious fear of the unknown, and I don't like doing anything without researching it solidly before-hand. I realize this is kind of strange, but humour me, please 

Thanks in advance

-M

[momtario]

 Hi! Most of the time I hold fairly strictly to my position on the Staying board, but I have some questions that can only be asked to you guys and gals.

Advice on this would be welcome from any of you, but to be honest, I am looking mostly for replies from people who were in long term r/s's that involved children (yours, theirs, only yours) and DV was involved.

Some of you may have transitioned from staying or undecided and know my story, but for those of you who don't, my H is uNPD, with a bit of uBPD as well. He is occasionally very violent, and rages nearly every day.

He, being a narcissist, really doesn't think there is anything wrong with how he behaves and doesn't know yet exactly how I feel about it.

So, while I am still really hoping that some miracle will happen and my marriage can be saved, I do realize it's not likely.

I guess mostly what I am looking for is a catalog of breakup stories... the straw that broke the camels back, how you told them, how they took it. I have a serious fear of the unknown, and I don't like doing anything without researching it solidly before-hand. I realize this is kind of strange, but humour me, please 

Thanks in advance

-M

[jessicapuppy]

Hi there

I don't have kids, but I am just out of a longterm relationship (3.5 years).

For me I got fed up of his lack of want to see a therapist (he was NPD and BPD), despite me telling him how upset and miserable I was.  It came to a head on Xmas night, when he started a rage on me...Xmas Day!...honestly!   

The next day as I dropped him at the train station, I told him I thought a break would do us good, and so he agreed.  I told him about a week later that the break would not end until he committed to therapy.  I did it this way, because I felt it was better to pass the buck to him, as I had heard that narcissists can be nasty when you try to end things.

Sure enough, after 3 weeks of a break, he ended things permanently, blaming me for the breakdown of the relationship.  I believe that was easier for him, than to admit he had a problem, and face it.

I do know of a good site (that you may already know about) that discusses Narcissistic behaviour and breaking up from a narcissist:

http://breakupwithanarcissist.com/

Best wishes,
JP
 

[Munch]

 Hi!

I was married to my h for 34 years, 2 children now adults.  Recently separated, because I finally figured out that Mrs. Fixit can't fix it, period.  In other words,  you cannot change someone, anyone that does not want to be changed.  It is as simple as that IMHO.

It is so hard to be in this kind of relationship, you get used to the dynamics and find it very difficult to leave/change; so you adapt and try to cope. 

I have been out now for 7 months, and I can tell you that the peace in my life now cannot be undermined again.   Being out of it really makes you realize what you have missed - a sense of normal daily living.

You are still young, I know it's very hard to leave... been there.  I was on the staying board when I first came here 7 years' ago.  Absolutely nothing changed.  So think about your futre and that of your children.

I don't think there is a straw really,  you just reach a point when you KNOW you can't do IT anymore.

 

Munchxo

[stonehead]

Hi momtario,

I don't have anything good to advice you, since my relationship was very short (6 months before the breakup). But I would say, don't expect any miracle from these people, because there won't be none. It would only be a dream (by you), or a mirage, insteady of any real hope. In the end you will be hurt again and again, unless of course you decide to join their ranks and becoming as crazy as they are, in order to practice their art.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[Munch]

Hi again Momtario,

I didn't mention that he didn't take it well at all.  He is still thinking he is coming back.  His abandonment issues have kicked in and he is seriously hurting.

At a lot of levels I feel empathy for him, the fact that he is suffering and has very serious fears, but I will no longer be on the other side of that.  He has to go to therapy and understand and accept that his actions and words have caused alot of suffering to other people that he loves.  Until he can do that, there is nothing else to be done.

He is the master of his future - not me anymore.   Sorry if I am so concise, that is just the way I am  

   again

Munchxo

[harmony1]

I left.  there was dv involved.  it will be final tomorrow and I could not be happier.  let me know if I can help in any way. 

[Intime]

Hi Momtario:

It has been a month of NC for me and my uBPDbf, but we broke up more times to count.  We had no children together (thank god) - - but his children were abused and terrorized by him.  All I can say is when their good, they're very good, but when they're bad - - they are demons.  I have been hit (DV), called every name in the book, ankle broken, lost jobs, manipulation, lies, you name it. All in the Name of Love.

Though I cannot prove infidelity, I do know that third parties were involved - - emotional affairs. I even had it out with her on the phone (2) times.  The third time was the charm, I had enough of the double standards, keeping a replacement on stand-by to see what would happen with our relationship.

I ended it, but he called the cops on me and turned it all around to his benefit.  The emotional scars are the worse, I am starting therapy soon, and moving 100 miles away for a fresh start. The BPD leaves you such an emotional wreck - - you are no good to anyone.  Four years of trying to do everything right, but you cannot please them - - and when their minds tell them to seek out someone new, oh believe me they WILL!

Take care of yourself and your kids--GET OUT NOW = = I really doubt it will get any better.

INTIME

[jacksondog]

HI MS. Momtario , Read the quote from G.J. she has a pasted link on her quote regarding narcissism. Very educational. This should help you do what ever it takes to live a healthy life. Good Luck!

[suzn]

Can I ask a question or two momtario?

What does this DV look like in your home? Do the children see this happening? I recall you saying something in another post of yours that he abuses them, am I remembering that right?

[momtario]

 Hi! all and thank you for the replies.

The actual physical violence is never bad enough to cause anyone injury- yes, he is both verbally and physically abusive to our children (mostly our oldest- D8). The worst the physical violence has been has been an open handed slap in the head, to D8 in October, and a few weeks ago he shoved me and I hit my head, pretty hard. The kids weren't there at the time.

There is mostly verbal abuse toward myself and the children. Things that can vaguely be considered physical abuse, like threats, wreckless driving while enraged, hitting walls, hitting the pets- Ok, that's real violence, but not toward us, and blocking/restraining.

He left a mark on D8 for the first time the other day. There's other stuff, but the kids aren't affected by that, and there's no chance I'd bring it up in court, if the time ever comes that I can detach.

[suzn]

  Let me just give you a different perspective here all together. I was a child who was physically abused. It wasn't in DV situations but nevertheless, it happened. My mother, was to afraid to put her foot down about it, allowed it. I can't tell you how these memories are deeply burned in momterio. They are painful and I'm pretty sure will be there forever. I don't visit those memories often or for very long when I do. But there will never be a day they are gone forever, nothing will take them away.  I just would like you to know if there was a way to go back and do things differently my mother would. She carries a lot of guilt for what she allowed to happen back then. My brother and I definately carry the scars on the inside.  

[eeyore]

I left.  there was dv involved.  it will be final tomorrow and I could not be happier.  let me know if I can help in any way. 

 Hi!   &   

[eeyore]

 Let me just give you a different perspective here all together. I was a child who was physically abused. It wasn't in DV situations but nevertheless, it happened. My mother, was to afraid to put her foot down about it, allowed it. I can't tell you how these memories are deeply burned in momterio. They are painful and I'm pretty sure will be there forever. I don't visit those memories often or for very long when I do. But there will never be a day they are gone forever, nothing will take them away.  I just would like you to know if there was a way to go back and do things differently my mother would. She carries a lot of guilt for what she allowed to happen back then. My brother and I definately carry the scars on the inside.  

that took a lot of courage to share.  I think it's better for parents to end things than for children to experience/witness any type of abuse.  It is the abuse that causes many to feel shame for telling others about it.

[GreenMango]

Momtario,

I'm really sorry that this is happening in your house to you and your children.  I thought originally of sending this to you in private, but then I thought dv and abuse in households is not spoken about enough.

Please read some work by Alice Miller.  I was a child of physical abuse.  My father never hit my mother that I can remember, but during his bi-polar episodes he would hit his kids, the dog, the car, the wall, whatever ever got in his way...so now that I think about why the hell wouldn't he have hit her, or pushed her, or whatever else.  He was out of control for a very long time, but his episodes were rare yet memorable.

I'm going to relate a very sh!tty story to you about my childhood:

My father during one of his out of control emotional breakdowns slapped me in the stomach when I was eight.  This left a man's hand print bruise on my stomach for a week.  My mom dressed me the next day for school and begged me not to show anyone.  I showed my best friend, that's it.  I didn't want to get my parents in trouble.  I remember this so vividly.  Kids are great aren't they.

There was a study, I can't remember which journal and I'll try to find it, where biologists/psychologists had two clutches of baby ducklings.  One real duck mother with her babies and one robotic duck mother who the other ducks imprinted on at hatching.  The robotic duck would randomly peck, for no apparent reason (warning of danger), at the ducklings.  Well guess what, the ducklings stuck to the robo-mama duck like white on rice.  They wouldn't venture away and were constantly trying to get the robo-mama duck to preen them.  The real mama duck who didn't peck at her babies had ducklings who would swim farther away to explore and then come back, like this all day long.  They were well adjusted.  The lesson: that pecking at your children by a parent can cause serious developmental, attachment and adjustment issues.

Even after coming to terms with my father's illness, my mom's permissiveness, his apologies, and their sincere attempts to make amends you know what never really made sense to me...why she never left?  What was my mom so scared of that she wouldn't leave him and take us with her when he lost it?

You know how this had played out in my life...one, only the hard boundary of physical abuse or a threat of physical harm was my leaving point and two, my threshold for bull$hit and pain, ie emotional and verbal abuse, is way too high.  I'm wasn't sure I even knew emotional and verbal abuse counted or what it was because it didn't seem anywhere near as painful as getting hit.  Is it any wonder I spent 8 years, and 5 years in a relationship, with someone with BPD.  My ex, a victim of decades of emotional and physical abuse from an npd/BPD father, became one himself.  I turned into the kid who revolted to fight it who paired up with the victim who refused to see it.  And it has taken me a long time to get to the point where I can see this history for what it is...and let it go.
 
Sometimes its seems like your kids won't get it, and yes as kids we are pretty great at being resilient, but they see it and it has long term ramifications.  It's a generational cycle that keeps repeating itself over and over again, until someone stops it.  Call it out and expose it for what it is: wrong.

Now I'm not saying a parent needs to be perfect.  You do the best you know with the tools you have at the time.  But if you know and you have the tools please don't underestimate your role in this...

Take care of those kiddos-
GM

[mscj]

I, too, am the child of an abusive household and it was on many levels.  My Dad's idea of spanking for punishment was quite brutal.  Eventually he molested me.  My mother was verbally abusive and that eventually started to turn to physical with an open handed slap.  I left home soon after that one.  My Mom never hugged or kissed me in my memory.

Trust me.  Your kids will remember all of this mental abuse and now the begins of physical abuse.  They will have to heal from it at some point in their lives.  You getting them out of there and protecting them will go a long ways toward helping them to heal.  I told my Mom that my Dad had molested me and she told me that it was all in my imagination and then left me there alone with him.

I am uncomfortable with the statement that you feel that you would never bring up in court the fact that his has hurt the kids.  Your children need you to protect them and if you do not mention all these facts then he will be allowed visitations and maybe weekend custodies etc.  If you are not there, then guess who will be getting the brunt of his craziness.  Your kids.  I know this sounds a bit harsh but truly I want you to protect yourself and your kids in every way that you can and keeping silent is the best friend of an abuser.

Everyone here will be there for you to discuss things, get ideas and help from, and just in general let you vent what you need.  None of us can force you to take these steps but please think very seriously about what everyone has said. 

     
mscj

[mscj]

Wow Green Mango.  I have not heard about that duck story but it makes so much sense.  I also really connected to what you said about having way to high an acceptance level for bull... and abuse.  I get it.  The dots are connected for me.  I knew that part of it was feeling the need to fix things but I never thought about why it took me so long to react to abusive people, far too long.  Hopefully this understanding will help me to turn another corner in my life.

mscj

[momtario]

Oh, no, please allow me to clarify. Anything and everything he has done to the kids would be brought up in court, if court is where my marriage ends. It's the stuff I put up with- stuff that doesn't and never will have any effect on our kids that I wouldn't bring up in a courtroom.

mscj- and everyone- I am so sorry for the way your parents treated you. While it is reasonable that your mother, mscj wouldn't want to believe your father was capable of molesting a child they shared (or any child) trying to make you deny it was terrible.

Even after coming to terms with my father's illness, my mom's permissiveness, his apologies, and their sincere attempts to make amends you know what never really made sense to me...why she never left?  What was my mom so scared of that she wouldn't leave him and take us with her when he lost it?

This is a really difficult one to explain- I am sure if you are on FtF you have read about FOG and the Stockholm Syndrome. Not that it makes it better or less confusing for the kids.

The truth is, I still don't know that separation or divorce are on my path- they are however options I am considering seriously.

The very next time my uNPDh gets violent, I am going to the police. That will be his warning. If he doesn't then get help, and I end up at the police station again, I'm not coming back. I hope.

[mscj]

Be safe dearest momtario!

I do understand the FOG and all that.  I understand it too well and the inertia.  I have been in the middle of it again.  But thanks to some help on this board and plenty of self work in my life time, I have forced myself to get moving even though I didn't want to.  I just saw an room to rent tonight and put the money down.  In a couple of more days, I will be out of the situation that I am in.  I am still scared and still want to just stop moving and pretend that really it will be all okay but I know better than that.

Just like Green Mango was saying my acceptance level for abuse is too high and I had allowed my longtime friend and for 3 years roommate get worse and worse towards me.  The scary moment came only when she almost pushed it to physical.  I have been putting up with mental abuse for quite some time and just accepting it and thinking that it was just something that I was doing wrong.

Why do you feel that you mustn't bring up what he has done to you in court?  I don't understand this part.

mscj

[GreenMango]

Momtario,

I am not judging you and I'm not judging my mom either.  She did what she knew how to do and she probably learned some of it from her family.  I realize that sometimes we get caught up in that fog and it's very difficult to find our way out. 

Forgiveness is different to each for us.  I don't advocate forcing an victim to forgive an abuser that has abused them, and to love them the same again; I believe that Alice Miller said something about pushing our morality or requirement for the victim to forgive only revictimizes a victim.  Everyone takes their own path in coming to terms with their history.  I forgive because I feel comfortable to forgive and see the work that has been put forth to make forgiveness possible.

Families can heal after events like these...it takes a lot of work.  In my family now, this is an open discussion and their are no "off" limit subjects regarding feelings or unacceptable behavior.  I was in my teens before my family started to make it's way towards this.  I think this was easier because my father is bi-polar, readily admits he has a problem, and owns responsiblity for his behavior now.   But herein lies the crux, it established a pattern for me that I knew for a long time and is present subconsciously even after the healing.  In addition, when dealing with someone with a pd, like BPD, having them come to the table and assume responsibility for their actions is very difficult.  The idealized version of how they see themselves is stitched up so tight to protect from shame that to get them to do it seems impossible...I'm not saying it is but it seems like it.  This is especially true with NPD.   This is compounded by the fact that their overwhelming emotions distort their ability to see the pain they cause and undermine change from their patterns.

This is why in respect to physical safety I am all for scaring the crap of them.  I am of the belief they need a beyond uncomfortable consequence, like in a jail cell for the night or week uncomfortable, to have the message that the abuse is unacceptable boundary stick.  They need to know you are not screwing around, and if this person leaves you because you won't allow them to abuse you or your kids you are better for it. 

-GM

[mscj]

I just went and re-read what you said

Oh, no, please allow me to clarify. Anything and everything he has done to the kids would be brought up in court, if court is where my marriage ends. It's the stuff I put up with- stuff that doesn't and never will have any effect on our kids that I wouldn't bring up in a courtroom.

I just want to let you know from my own history that the kids are much more aware of the things going on that you think they don't know.  It is a very scary thing for a kid and really messes with their trust in their safety in the world.  It also messes with their sense of what is okay and what isn't.  Talk to some more people about what it is like for children in the same position as yours.  I am sure there are plenty on this board who can share.

I just want to make sure that you have the facts so that you can make the best possible choices for you and your children.  I know that you are in a difficult position and I hope that you get to a better place sooner rather than later.

 
mscj