Those of you who left...

[Think About It...]

Momtario, I won't tell you of all of the stories that I endured, or the dynamics of my past relationship. It was worse than yours, and the kids were not mine, but hers.

When the relationship started, the kids were 2 and 5. That was 18 years ago.

I always stayed in the relationship because of the kids. My master plan was to leave when they both went to college. When I met their mother, she didn't have custody, or visitation of them. After 1.5 years, we had full custody, and their dad was gone, out of their lives. I felt an obligation to those children, because if I hadn't come into the relationship, they would still be with their father. He wasn't much of a prize either.

The one thing I wish I could have changed was that I really wished that I was the kids father, and that I could have left the relationship early, and developed a good, stable home, with a loving mate, so that the kids could at least see what that looked like.

When one parent is abusive, and the other stays, the children will grow up in an abusive house, without the benefit of seeing another side. When the parents live separately, and one is healthy, the kids still see the abusive side, but they also see the healthy side, and can compare the two.

I'm not trying to tell you to leave, but I am just giving you my regrets, and my ultimate wishes for two young, lovely ladies that I love.

[PDQuick]

Momtario, I won't tell you of all of the stories that I endured, or the dynamics of my past relationship. It was worse than yours, and the kids were not mine, but hers.

When the relationship started, the kids were 2 and 5. That was 18 years ago.

I always stayed in the relationship because of the kids. My master plan was to leave when they both went to college. When I met their mother, she didn't have custody, or visitation of them. After 1.5 years, we had full custody, and their dad was gone, out of their lives. I felt an obligation to those children, because if I hadn't come into the relationship, they would still be with their father. He wasn't much of a prize either.

The one thing I wish I could have changed was that I really wished that I was the kids father, and that I could have left the relationship early, and developed a good, stable home, with a loving mate, so that the kids could at least see what that looked like.

When one parent is abusive, and the other stays, the children will grow up in an abusive house, without the benefit of seeing another side. When the parents live separately, and one is healthy, the kids still see the abusive side, but they also see the healthy side, and can compare the two.

I'm not trying to tell you to leave, but I am just giving you my regrets, and my ultimate wishes for two young, lovely ladies that I love.

[harmony1]

I also wanted to share that my dad was physically abusive when I was a child to me and my brother.  My mom never stood up for us..a very lonely feeling..also why I subconsciously chose the men I have as an adult..dv begets dv..sad but true   also makes you believe you deserve it when your mom does not acknowledge anything...lots of therapy here     when this occurred in my marriage I always taught my kids it was wrong, why I stayed..if he picked on them (not his children)  I stood up for them  um yeah he didnt like that much

[jacksondog]

I couldn't say it any better than SUZN I was abused as a child and I'm 55 years of age and still go to a T for help. You never  totally  get rid of the pain. You do not want your children to go through this. Theres lives are going to be altered forever.The physiological  scars are very painful . trust me.get out of that situation.

[harmony1]

I couldn't say it any better than SUZN I was abused as a child and I'm 55 years of age and still go to a T for help. You never  totally  get rid of the pain. You do not want your children to go through this. Theres lives are going to be altered forever.The physiological  scars are very painful . trust me.get out of that situation.

truer words were never more written ^^^^^

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[momtario]

This is the point we are at right now- I stand up for them, and he doesn't like it much. I also have always allowed my children to express whatever feelings they have about it to me after every incident- it's not a replacement for leaving, but I hope it does make a difference.
On the flip side, if I leave, I will have to send them into visitation with a man I can't trust to be alone with my children, because even on good days, when alone with them, he is very neglectful.

Regarding the stuff the children don't know about... I don't particularly like to talk about it, but I can see how I may be being confusing, and I am asking for the same type of honesty from you guys. uNPDh has it figured out that if he wants to stuff me back into the FOG, all he has to do is rape me. That's his trump card, and I can't figure a way around it.

[jessicapuppy]

Especially after your last post, I am actually going to suggest you to GET OUT...for goodness sake!

Tell the police and the courts exactly what he has done to you and what he has threatened to do to you!  There is little chance the courts would give him unsupervised access, if you tell them all of that.  I would suggest that holding back information, is the best way to get him access!

By staying there, you are sending a lot of negative and confusing messages to your kids, and they could well end up entering abusive relationships themselves, one day!

I would seriously think about getting yourself into a women & children's safe house, as soon as you possibly can!  If you don't take this emergency action to keep yourselves safe, and then eventually do leave him, he is far more likely to get access to them, because anything you say at that point, will look like you are just trying to deny him access!  I'd imagine a court would ask that if things were really that bad, why did you allow yourself and your children to stay.

What exactly WOULD this man have to do to you or your kids, for you to stop rationalising and excusing his behaviour to allow yourself to stay there?

You and your kids deserve so much better than this!  Please put yourselves first and get away from this abuser!

I am thinking of you, and sending you positive thoughts and energy!

Best wishes
JP
 

P.S.  I too was the victim of abusive parents, and although they carefully moderated just HOW abusive they were, it left me with massive scars emotionally.
I have also been the victim of rape.

[magwitch]

My uBPDw and I have now been married for 15 years and have 4 children (d14, d12, s9, & s7) together. We are now in the middle of the divorce process.

For me the straw that broke the camels back was me starting to go to counseling which she told me I needed to do for years. Through therapy I started to learn a few things about myself and about her. Most importantly, I learned about boundaries.

When I started setting some boundaries that I had let slide for years her opinion of counseling changed. In her words, "counseling isn't doing you a damn bit of good... your worse than ever.."

Specifically, the boundary I started with was yelling, cussing, and calling names. Over the course of a couple weeks, if any of these behaviors popped up I would calmly explain that if it didn't stop then I would end the conversation by simply getting up and leaving the room. After a week or two of warning her I started doing just that.

In the end, with my counselors help formulating how to say it, the last boundary I set was communicating with her my need for her to get some help by seeing both a psychiatrist and a counselor. I gave her no ultimatums or "do this or else" statements which I would have done without my counselors help. I simply communicated my need for her to get help.

She responded by filing for divorce two weeks later. I was in the process of filing myself when I was served the papers.

Hang in there and please take care of yourself! I know it doesn't help much but you will know when it is time! People used to tell me that and it did nothing but frustrate me more. But I know now, that I knew when the time was right!

By the way, my kids seem to be doing well to date. I think with the yelling, cussing and name calling they seemed to know it was coming. I think they know more than we give them credit for. My concern now is that despite it being 6 months since the divorce process started my uBPDw is still in the home. I believe with my boys her still being here along with my maintaining as low contact as possible so there is no more yelling or other raging has created some confusion within them. I am pretty sure that I will have to have some discussions with them at some point when the time comes.

[jessicapuppy]

It certainly seems very common for the person with the Borderline/Narcissistic personality disorder to leave when they are sussed out and asked to seek treatment.  With my ex it was easier for him to blame me than to look at himself.  He doesn't know that this is going to come up in any future relationships he has, because  I was his first proper relationship.  He really didn't know how good he had it, and how many chances I gave him and exceptions I made for him.

I think another thing for me that made me know it was time, was reading my own posts back to myself.  What would YOU advise, if someone else had written your post?  I think that's a pretty good way to be objective about things.

[mscj]

Jessicapuppy, I was thinking the same thing.

Momtario, if you were in the shoes of someone you think is a sensible and healthy person, what would you say?  I have actually been using that idea with myself lately. I ask myself what a balanced healthy person would do right now?  For me, I admire Maya Angelou and imagine to myself what she would do.  It helps me to get myself moving.  In fact, I am going to use that right now for me.

mscj

[azmomm2]

I haven't left yet, but as I've told you, my situation doesn't include physical violence.

BUT - I grew up in a very emotionally abusive household. I remember being scared to go to sleep. I remember being scared to make a noise. I remember everything.

The more I read from you, the more I think your husband REALLY has you brainwashed. You aren't just in a FOG... you really do think he'll get custody. You really do think he's a "good guy" with problems.

He is NOT a good guy. He's the worst kind of bad guy... a guy who puts his needs - sexual, physical, control, everything - over yours and your childrens'. When he is being "good", it is simply because you are meeting his expectations at that moment, so there's no reason to keep you in line. It's not because he loves you and the kids and just loses control when he's mad. It's because it is ALL ABOUT HIM. Don't fool yourself, and don't believe his brainwashing.

Instead of saying that you don't know whether separation and divorce is in your future, start saying you don't deserve this, your kids don't deserve this, and you WILL LEAVE. There's no question. You will leave. Don't accept anything else.

There are men out there who would let you be free to live your own life. There are men who would never force themselves sexually on a woman. There are men who would never hurt a child. There are men who are logical, rational, and loving. And HAPPY.

You need out. And you need out soon. Keep working on it. Keep working on yourself. Know that your situation is NOT NORMAL.

[momtario]

Yesterday morning, actually, I decided to start the detachment process. I wrote out my last post on this thread, and it just suddenly fell into place.

It still is awful, but I think I'm done. It's not anger (though I am angry) and it's not hatred. I don't particularly want to leave. I'm just- done. It's different this time, as I said in another of my threads. The other times I considered leaving, it was in the heat of the moment- I never said it aloud, but I can't count the times that I thought "that's it- I've had enough, I'm leaving tomorrow"

This is just different. It's sad, but I really am just done.

[jessicapuppy]

Hi there

yes, we have all at some point said in an argument that we've had enough of the relationship, but I think, like you said, there is a very clear difference when you get to the end point in a relationship.

For me, things were much more calm.  I didn't feel any particular feeling in a strong way, it was pretty much matter of fact.  Part of me was a little numb, and a bit sad, too, because the relationship I'd fought so hard to improve, was now over.  I think it's a normal part of acceptance.

I also think our bodies go into this numb, calm sort of state, to allow us to logically deal with the practical aspects of leaving the relationship.  If we shut down from the emotional turbulance, we are better placed to think about the practical things that need to be done.

That's how it was for me, anyway.  Once I'd made the decisions and cut the ties etc, and got my space and he was gone, THEN I was able to start emotionally grieving for the loss.  

Everyone is different in the way they deal with their grief and acceptance of such trauma.  I researched quite a few books in advance of splitting, that I ordered into my local library, to pick up when he was gone, and help me through the split.

JP
x

[mscj]

Momtario, I think that you have made a wise decision.  I remember that I had that same kind of feeling when I hit the end with the BPD that I just left.  I felt it to the core of my being that I was finished.  I was like a door shutting between me and her.  I expect in a little while that I will go through other things but for the moment, I am busy setting up my new life and handling all that business so it is ok.  I know that you will have good and bad days while going through this process but know that you can continue to get support here when you need it.

mscj

[GonnaMakeIt]

I stayed with my BPDh for longer than I should have 'for the kids' sake.' Then I read somewhere that kids would rather say they came from a broken home than to live in one. Also my sister remembers a lot of the abuse my dad put my mom through before she got rid of him and she keeps telling me it would have meant everything to her if she had seen my mom stand up for herself.
I have been in counseling off and on all of my adult life. My counselor helped me get out of the situation with my husband. Mostly all she had to do was speak truth that I was unwilling to look at or acknowledge. I kept saying the kids weren't that affected because the abuse was directed at me. She kept pointing out how wrong my outlook was. They were part of it and were being raised to accept it. Once I realized and accepted that, I knew I had to leave 'for the kids sake.'
Keep strong!
 

[momtario]

Thank you for the replies. I really needed them today after the barrage of second  thoughts I have been having today.

I just really feel thw guilt right now, even though I'm not the guilty one.

[jessicapuppy]

Thank you for the replies. I really needed them today after the barrage of second  thoughts I have been having today.

I just really feel thw guilt right now, even though I'm not the guilty one.

A dip back into the FOG...perhaps?

Totally understandable, though x

[momtario]

I wish it were just the FOG. It's more that  everything  I have worked  for, for 11 years, is crumbling around me. I feel like I am failing everyone, mostly myself.

I guess I'm just tired today. All the coffee in the world couldn't  take away  this horribly empty feeling  that  I'm  giving up.

[GreenMango]

I wish it were just the FOG. It's more that  everything  I have worked  for, for 11 years, is crumbling around me. I feel like I am failing everyone, mostly myself.

I guess I'm just tired today. All the coffee in the world couldn't  take away  this horribly empty feeling  that  I'm  giving up.

Hey M,
Are you seeing a T to help you through this?  Might be a good idea to build a very strong support network and "soft place" for yourself while this is going on so you don't feel the need to look to your relationship for it.  Hope you feel better soon. 
-GM

[jessicapuppy]

I wish it were just the FOG. It's more that  everything  I have worked  for, for 11 years, is crumbling around me. I feel like I am failing everyone, mostly myself.

I guess I'm just tired today. All the coffee in the world couldn't  take away  this horribly empty feeling  that  I'm  giving up.

You worked hard and did your very best for 11 years.  It's not your fault that you are where you are.  You should be proud of what you did for those 11 years, and proud of what you're doing now.   Many people would rather stay unhappy than rock the boat.  It's that whole taking a step back to move forwards saying.  When you and your kids are somewhere happy, safe and balanced, you will be proud of what you are doing now.

[G.J.]

Hi momtario,

Been wondering how you're doing.  If you haven't already, read this article (and some of the free eBook PDF's that are offered).  This REALLY put things in perspective for me, and I'd now characterize my dxBPD-exbf the same as your H:  NPD with a bit of BPD.

http://www.melanietoniaevans.com/articles/narcissism-understood.htm

The "No Contact" PDF is especially good, even if you're not going to go NC.  It explains a LOT about the way they think.  She has a healing program that's pretty expensive, but I downloaded it and plan to go through it.  Either way, the content has really helped me stay firmly rooted in my own reality and not fall for the tricks anymore.


As for my Leaving Story...  My ex had two kids that lived with us part-time.  I don't have any children of my own.  Other than grabbing my suitcase from me and throwing it across the bedroom, and physically blocking me when I'd try to leave -- my ex never hit me or anything.  But he sure did scare me, and we had several guns in the house that he'd often go "play with" when angry.  So, not a mirror image of your situation, but I do remember our situations being quite similar, so I'll toss it out there in case it helps:

The straw that broke the camel's back for me, was when I became so distracted, anxious, fearful and overwhelmed with what was going on at home, I couldn't concentrate on my job.  I failed an important test at work (which I take every 9 months, and had NEVER previously failed in my 20 year career), and risked getting fired.  The next night, I ended things with him.  (In retrospect, I should have ended things LONG before then.  But I couldn't see that while I was still in it.)

The actual break-up was relatively benign.  At the advice of my T, I had a spare set of keys, a spare credit card, and a few hundred dollars cash in the glove box of my car.  I packed a bag with what I would need for a few days.  And I purchased a lock box that I hid in the basement and put my guns in there.  (I decided I would have to take the chance on his guns, so as not to tip him off and incite to riot.)

I started by telling him I was extremely concerned about the health of our relationship and where it was headed.  That I really needed MUCH more change than I had been seeing.  He defaulted back into a position of, "There's nothing wrong with me, there's something wrong with you."  He then tried to turn the tables on me and started asking outrageous nonsensical questions.  When I refused to play the game, he said I better answer him or he could no longer be with me.  I said, "That's your choice."  We calmly discussed him moving out of my house, where to leave his keys, what he should take, etc.

Then he got nasty and started putting me down.  "At the first nasty word" like Steph says, I knew that was my cue to leave.  So I grabbed my suitcase and purse, and without a word, immediately walked out the door.  He walked after me and kept calling out to me, but he didn't try to block me like he had in the past.  (But that was always after things had gotten TOO heated.)  I think the fact that I did it while things were still calm, and the swiftness of my actions, took him off guard and didn't give him much of a chance to react.

I left and drove to a parking lot a little ways away and sat there for about an hour, making sure he hadn't followed me.  Then I drove to a hotel.  I told them not to give out my room number or forward calls to my room.  I think seeing my driver's license from a nearby town, gave them a heads-up on what was going on.  I parked where I could see my car from my room.

My ex called me 150 times the first day.  Over 100 times the second day.  And about 50 times the 3rd day.  Countless texts and emails.  He was in hysterics crying.  Begged.  Pleaded.  Apologized.  Promised.  Threatened (both to make me pay, and to commit suicide).  Used every tactic he could think of.  I didn't respond to ANY of it, and ended up turning off my phone for most of the day.  (Honestly, just observing the behavior from a removed position like that was actually really eye-opening.)

After 48 hours had passed, and I was getting NO indications that he was moving out, my friends encouraged me to go to the Police.  Reluctantly, I did.  I filed a report with them, and asked for my options.  They said that because he had blocked me from leaving my home in the last week, they could probably get a TRO.  (FYI: If the Police ask if he has harmed you recently, tell them it was in the last week.  There were no witnesses.  Your word against his.  Apparently the longer ago it was, the harder it is to get a TRO.)  Because we had guns in the house, that was going to make the TRO and getting him removed from my house a little more dramatic.  I decided to give it another 24 hours.  Luckily, he moved out on his own the next day (I had neighbors watching the house).  But he absolutely could have waited me out.  He was just chillin' at home.  I was the one at a hotel with only a few days' worth of clothes.

Problem became, he kept leaving me voicemails and texts saying that he was out of the house -- but then he would come back.   Stay for another 2 hours, and then leave a message saying he had left again.  Then he started parking a few blocks over and walking back into the house.  (Thank GOD for retired neighbors that like playing Private Eye!)  He did this a total of 4 times.  He was hoping that I would return and "Surprise!"  He's still there.  That could have gotten REALLY ugly if I had fallen for it.

When it truly seemed like he had given up and left for good, I went back to the Police Station, we called a Locksmith from there, and the Police went through my entire house to make sure he wasn't there, that he hadn't stolen or broken anything, and that he hadn't left any surprises for me.  The Locksmith changed my locks then and there, and the Police gave me some tips on other things to change (garage door code, etc).

I never got a TRO -- although I'm still eligible if he continues to harass or threaten me -- especially now that I have a report on file.  Since then, it's been up and down.  He kept calling, texting and eventually showing up at my door.  At the time, I was VERY worried about him committing suicide (he attempted to years ago, and threatened it several times to me) so I was more compassionate than I should have been and agreed to talk to him.  He promised to get more help.  Promised to change.  Promised to do everything I had begged him to do for the last 20 months.  There was actually about a week and a half period where I TRULY questioned ANY of his diagnoses.  (No kidding.  I had NEVER seen him so normal, so calm, so rational, so understanding...)  He begged me to take him back, but I refused.  But I did still talk to him, which was a big mistake.

Of course his "normalcy" went back to "crazy" -- crazier than I had ever seen him.  Barely took 2 weeks.  He had been lying about all kinds of stuff the whole time.  Doing stuff behind my back.  Went back to controlling me in the blink of an eye (and we weren't even together!  I was just willing to talk to him once and awhile!)  It was sick and twisted and interesting (all at the same time) to watch from a removed point of view.

I set up blocking on my cell phone and filtered his email address.  Since then, I've had to block his work number, his dad's cell, his ex-wife's cell -- and as of today, now I'm going to have to block his kids' cell numbers because now he's using them to try to get to me.  He still sends emails and stops by my house.  Last week, he stood on my doorstep for 45 minutes banging on the door, ringing the doorbell.  Next time he does that, I'm calling the Police.  Today, he dropped off a gift for me.  Not sure if he stood out there for awhile -- I was out for several hours.

I have not responded to ANY of this, and I'm praying eventually he will give up.

Obviously, because you guys have kids together, you'll have to have some contact with him.  But I'm pretty sure that website's No Contact eBook gives some good advice for that.  Like email only -- no phone or text.  Or communicating through 3rd parties.

The key is, once you've gotten out, you MUST insulate yourself -- even IF you don't think you have to.  YOU DO HAVE TO.  Change your number or block his numbers.  Change your locks.  Get reinforced locks or a house alarm.  Have neighbors watching your house and people regularly checking in on you.  Do not be afraid to call the police.  In your situation, I would ABSOLUTELY get a TRO.  Heck, you could probably just go that route right now, and get him forcibly removed from your home, and avoid all this drama.

After that, he becomes the Police's problem.  Yes, a TRO is only a piece of paper.  But if you're careful in the first few weeks afterwards (don't leave your house without a friend, even set up Nanny Cams outside your house, get motion sensor lights outside your house -- that sort of stuff) he'll either cool down, or get himself locked up.  Police don't take this stuff lightly.  And neither should you.

As for the kids' involvement:  They weren't here at the time.  Maybe you could set up a sleep-over for your kids and have them already out of the house.  He never gave me the opportunity to talk to them face-to-face, but he did have them call me a few days after the breakup -- I'm sure as a guilt tripping ploy -- but I just told them that I cared about them immensely and that things just sadly didn't work out with their dad and I.  I didn't hear anything from them again until today, when his son texted me to say hello.  I know my ex had his kids this weekend, so I'm sure he put him up to it.  They never contacted me on their own even when I was in his life.  It killed me, but I didn't respond.  It makes me really sad.  I was hoping not to have to block them.  But the bottom line is, people are OBJECTS to NPD's.  He will use his kids to get into my home the same way he would use a crowbar.  You have no choice but to save yourself in these situations.  And protect your kids.  Hopefully, their mother will find a way to protect them.  I cannot.

The Police and DV Counselors can help you put a good plan together that will work specifically for your situation.  I was amazed at how many of these incidents they had seen, in my town alone.  The Locksmith had some AMAZING stories!  And his advice to me was:  "Do not EVER give this man keys to your house again.  You have NO IDEA how many times I'm back at the SAME house just a few months later, and this time, the woman has a black eye, broken arm, or worse."  Several times, he's had men try to run him down or shoot him.  He has a direct line to the Police on Speed Dial.  Unbelievable!

If I were to give you advice, I would go to your local Police and just ask "What are my options?"  They can help you come up with a plan, and at least then you know what your alternatives are.  Maybe while he's at work, you pack a bag, get your valuables and sentimentals, get your kids to someone else's house for awhile, file the TRO and get him forced out when he comes home.  You can leave a note saying you are filing for divorce.  And just leave it at that.  No fuss no muss.  Then bring the Police and Locksmith and Alarm System Company back into the house with you when you return.

Hope that helps.  Sending you big hugs.