Does anyone have any positive experience on confronting behavior or lies?

[Think About It...]

My experience is not good with confronting unacceptable behavior or lies.  My son seems unable to
stop lying to others and to himself.  The lies make it so difficult to work with him because we never know
what is true and can never really trust anything he says.  How do you have a relationship under those
circumstance? 

I have seen him grapple with trying to change behavior   I really think he tried to
change some really despicable behavior; I listened to the struggles.  But basically the demons won.

My only conclusion is that all I can do is set boundaries; determine what I can and cannot tolerate in his behavior toward me.  I have
no clue as to whether I should express disapproval of his behavior toward others, including the grandchildren; whether it is tilting at
windmills and alienating. 

Another problem we have is he keeps telling us how much better he is doing and how much progress he is making with his therapist.  But I fail to comprehend how you can be that much better if your behavior toward others is hurtful, mean, and cruel and you lie all the time. 

Anybody else have any wisdom to share?

LadyLinnet

[More than sad]

My experience is not good with confronting unacceptable behavior or lies.  My son seems unable to
stop lying to others and to himself.  The lies make it so difficult to work with him because we never know
what is true and can never really trust anything he says.  How do you have a relationship under those
circumstance? 

I have seen him grapple with trying to change behavior   I really think he tried to
change some really despicable behavior; I listened to the struggles.  But basically the demons won.

My only conclusion is that all I can do is set boundaries; determine what I can and cannot tolerate in his behavior toward me.  I have
no clue as to whether I should express disapproval of his behavior toward others, including the grandchildren; whether it is tilting at
windmills and alienating. 

Another problem we have is he keeps telling us how much better he is doing and how much progress he is making with his therapist.  But I fail to comprehend how you can be that much better if your behavior toward others is hurtful, mean, and cruel and you lie all the time. 

Anybody else have any wisdom to share?

LadyLinnet

[Sadforson]

Never had a positive experience in confronting lies.  Doesn't seem to work just creates more denial.  Yes he lies when he is being sneaky but In fact, I think we have also come to the conclusion that our son does not actually have a long term emotional memory so what seems to be lies to us are simply what he absolutely believes what happened.  He will be in a situation where we will say, "you said such and such" and he will deny it.  He will deny it even if ten people were in the room at the time and say that they all clearly heard him say such and such.  It's so illogical and he so does not really believe he said that that we have concluded that it's an emotional malfunction rather than an deliberate lie. 

[snowwhite]

Have you read the book "Get Me Out of Here"?  The author is a recovered borderline.  As she tells her story of the 5 years of therapy she went through, she deals with the lies she told her therapist and her husband.  She had to progress to a certain stage to confront each fear individually.  Only when she was ready to confront a given issue did she reveal the truth to her therapist.

It is a long process, with one step forward and two back during the process.  Do not think your pwBPD is not making progress even if he continues to act out.

[Battle Weary]

Sadforson,
I like your turn of phrase of him not having much of a longterm emotional memory.  So on point and explanatory of some of the seeming lies. 

Snowwhite,
Haven't read the book, but it seems it could be overwhelming to admit to the lies (the ones that are not due to faulty long-term emotional memory).  I am convinced that one of the reasons my dd stopped seeing her old therapist (not DBT) is that she  started out glossing over the truth or outright lying a lot and at some point realized she was actually in pretty deep trouble but couldn't work anything out with the therapist because that would require admitting how much she had lied.  So now we are on to a new therapist.  I am hoping history doesn't repeat itself...

[Thursday]

I have had some success in getting my SD to admit she was lying and also have gotten her to admit intentions that she previously denied.

I was able to get her to admit these things through earnest, straightforward discussion, logic and pointing out the truth, or rather, what I had determined to be the truth.

There have been certain things she has done that she would NEVER admit to. Well, maybe now she would as she is working her AA steps and trying to change.

I have always gotten the impression that for SD it is a relief, as it is with nonBPDs to get a big lie off her chest. I think this dance to find the truth has been helpful to her. I hope she gets that I have been hanging in there with her!

Early on, such confrontations would end with her putting herself down...tearful, recalcitrant. Then soon afterwards she would cycle into overly cheerful, uber helpful, baby talking, even sometimes lisping or talking with an accent. (I think she would take herself to this person so unlike her normal self to escape the way the truth made her feel)

I don't really think confronting lies is really all that important though. Other things have been more important in her growth and beginnings of healing...such as firm boundaries and her Dad not continuing to enable her.

Sometimes I used to just listen to her versions and then tell her point blank, I don't think so. And sometimes I would even take a stab at telling her what I thought had actually happened. I quit this when she started "swearing on her deceased Mom" that something was the truth when my telling what I surmised was a more truthful version would spark her to defend her position in the most expedient way possible.

She has been sober for a year now and her behavior is better. Thus, she doesn't seem to have so much to lie about anymore. It is working itself out.

Thursday

[Battle Weary]

Thursday,
Babytalking?  I thought mine was the only who did this.  So great to have this board and find out how many of these behaviors one finds truly baffling and at times exasperating are ones others are also dealing with.

[INFORMATION ABOUT THE 'SUPPORTING A CHILD' BOARD]

INFORMATION ABOUT THE 'SUPPORTING A CHILD' BOARD Our objective is to learn how to support our loved ones and to find peace and understanding in our own lives. There is real help and real hope available for families. For information and guidelines please click here :

[peaceplease]

Never.  I really don't bother confronting as it would just lead to an arguement.  And, I pick my battles. 

I know that my dd took a gas dicount card, last week.  I told her that I wanted the money that I would have saved.  She denied taking it, and called me crazy.  Long story, short.  She never verbally admitted to taking it.  But she did make restitution.  I let it go after that.

I overheard her talking aobut working so much.  She does  not have a job, now.  I think that by confronting her and letting her know that I heard would only cause her to rage.  She would be furious that I was listening to her phone call.  I wasn't intentinally listening, I just happened to hear her.  By confronting her, she would feel shame.  She already feels shame about not working.  She feels shame about not being able to keep a job. 

  I can't see any positive about it.  In the past, I thought, otherwise.  I thought by embarassing her, she would quit lying.  I was wrong. 

[Battle Weary]

It is almsot always useless unless one really has one's ducks in a row.  I noticed some of my jewelry had gone missing--asked her if she had borrowed it and got denials.  Then I found a receipt from a jeweler on her floor.  Visited store--it buys and sells jewelry--and lo and behold there were some of my pieces on display.  I told the owner I didn't want to involve the police and my dd had mental health issues and arranged to buy it back at what they paid her.  They didn't want the police either, although strictly speaking they had bought stolen goods and should have reported it. But it was a family owned business and the owner was very sympathetic to my situation. He also told me he'd had parents in a similar situation who'd gone through with reporting to the police and the kids ended up with a criminal record--in his experience there was absolutely no allowance for psychiatric problems.

Then I sat dd down and said I was going to talk to her about something and didn't want to get the police to be involved but I would involve them depending on how truthful she was to me.  She is terrified of the police and I got all kinds of truth out of her even beyond the theft that I'd never get under any other circumstances.  So there you have my situation--if it involves criminal activity and I can credibly invoke possible police involvement I can confront the lie and get the truth.  But no chance otherwise.

[Reality]

Valerie Porr's book, Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder, deals extensively with this issue.  It explains  the useful strategies to use in a way that makes it very clear how to be with our pwBPDs.  Thanks to heronbird for the recommendation.  My favorite BPD book yet.
Reality

[Thursday]

Battle Weary,

Every time I've mentioned the baby talking here someone chimes in,

Same Here.

My SD calls her father DaDa.  

thursday

[Reality]

Addendum
For some reason, I am intuitively asking for truth with my BPDs23 right now.  I sense it helps him cut through his own confusion and it connects him to outside reality.  I tell him that I don't care what he has done, because the truth is the most important piece, so that I can understand what is really happening.  He actually responds well to this firmness on my part and seems relieved to be able to re-count exactly what has happened.  I think it strengthens the cognition deficit significantly.  I think he sees this firmness, as a welcoming to the real world and a new sense that maybe the real world is way less scary than his inner place.
I wait patiently for him to answer honestly.  I can easily tell when he lies, so I keep repeating that I think he is dodging the facts and I will wait for him to give me the goods.  I think the lying gig is what really starts the whirling maelstrom.  My BPDs23 was born a trickster.  He loves being what he is not.  But add drugs to that stance and he was drawn into another dimension, from which even he, the ultimate trickster, could not extricate himself.  The panic attacks come from that vortex suffocating him.  My BPDs23 watches movies non-stop, always searching for the clue, back to life.
The underlying emotional dysregulation with it's powerful and brutal severing of any cognitive control starts as a friend of the imagination and ends up being the ultimate trickster.  
A trickster tricked!

[More than sad]

thanks everyone.

Pretty much my experience is that confrontation unless tempered with a lot of validation and use of the S.E.T. principles is fruitless.

And sometimes even with those kinds of interactions don't end well.

Big sigh.


LadyLinnet

[parent of bpd daughter]

When I went to DBT for 6 months with my BPDD - the lies just kept coming from her, and I watched our therapist - say "That must have made you feel horrible" and things like that - to validate. Even though I sat there fuming at the false accusations and then cried after each session from the emotional pain, I learned to say "that must have made you feel horrible", so that's all I say now when she lies about most things.

Unless - it's about stealing out of my home - she is 32 now - and I won't tolerate theft anymore - I confront that when it happens - mostly she doesn't come to my home at all - that's how to avoid the theft.

I guess it depends on the lie - if it's a lie that conceals criminal behavior or harm to herself or someone else - I will confront. If it is a lie about things or events that happened - I just say - that must have felt horrible and let it go.

It is true - their long term "emotional memory" doesn't seem to work - which is good - or else they would be miserable given all the pain they cause themselves and others.

My own therapist and psychiatrist agree that BPD's don't think before they speak and don't remember much of what they say - sad but true.

Being sober helps considerably as others have stated.

[heronbird]

we have had lies from at least the age of 12 with dd, of course we confronted her time after time at first. Now 5 years later, whats the point, mostly she would never admit anything to us, and so what if she is lying, theres no point anymore. So when she goes out, I naturally say, where you going, who you going with, as soon as I say it, I know I shouldnt of because she is not going to tell me. Its sad because everything she says you cant believe, how can you ever have a relationship with someone like that.

The only possitive experience I have had is by not confronting her, so I have learnt when she goes out, I just say please just phone or text me once if you are not coming home, thats the best I can expect. Confronting behaviour, we are experts on, and it never ever did any good at all.

I did tell her the other day, that everything I have said no to has ended up bad, she went to a weekend of gigs with a bf, I told her not to go she went and it ended up very badly, this is normal, happens a lot actually. Shes just so damn stubborn always has been.