Defining the Male Waif

[Think About It...]

. As if his family relied on him and he would never let others in his life, except his family. But then other times he would tell me that we don't need our families, we only need each other and no one else. So he fluctuated between this extreme devotion to being there for the family (and shutting me and others out).

Yes!  This is it exactly!  A strange fluctuation that I could not understand at the time.  At first, I put it down to some sort of cultural obligation to his family that I could not fathom (he's from a very different culture and background from my own), but after reading some of the excellent posts by "2010" on this board, I think it has more to do with the sense of servitude that waif BPDs have ...which is quickly followed by a sense of engulfment.  Apparently they struggle with feeling like a slave, feeling enmeshed into others' needs and craving escape, but then feeling shame and fearing abandonment if they do not do what is expected of them.  

It's a complicated and sad equation for them.

Mine had a crazy r/s with his family. At times, doting on every single thing, being an over-the-top "parent" to the one son (would do his college papers for him). The next day the kid would be a "expletive."

He went 10 years without speaking to his mother, but came to a reconciliation when I was with him, doting on her and really going, again, over the top...but then in the next breath, tell me his family's opinions don't matter to him and not wanting me to be involved in their shi(p) or think too highly of them. At times, he couldn't wait to take me to his mother's and for me to spend "quality" time with her, and at others, he didn't want us to go anywhere near there and he had negative things to say about her.

After our breakup, I can see he's back to hardly contacting them at all.

M

[ellil]

. As if his family relied on him and he would never let others in his life, except his family. But then other times he would tell me that we don't need our families, we only need each other and no one else. So he fluctuated between this extreme devotion to being there for the family (and shutting me and others out).

Yes!  This is it exactly!  A strange fluctuation that I could not understand at the time.  At first, I put it down to some sort of cultural obligation to his family that I could not fathom (he's from a very different culture and background from my own), but after reading some of the excellent posts by "2010" on this board, I think it has more to do with the sense of servitude that waif BPDs have ...which is quickly followed by a sense of engulfment.  Apparently they struggle with feeling like a slave, feeling enmeshed into others' needs and craving escape, but then feeling shame and fearing abandonment if they do not do what is expected of them.  

It's a complicated and sad equation for them.

Mine had a crazy r/s with his family. At times, doting on every single thing, being an over-the-top "parent" to the one son (would do his college papers for him). The next day the kid would be a "expletive."

He went 10 years without speaking to his mother, but came to a reconciliation when I was with him, doting on her and really going, again, over the top...but then in the next breath, tell me his family's opinions don't matter to him and not wanting me to be involved in their shi(p) or think too highly of them. At times, he couldn't wait to take me to his mother's and for me to spend "quality" time with her, and at others, he didn't want us to go anywhere near there and he had negative things to say about her.

After our breakup, I can see he's back to hardly contacting them at all.

M

[HowPredictable]

At times, he couldn't wait to take me to his mother's and for me to spend "quality" time with her, and at others, he didn't want us to go anywhere near there and he had negative things to say about her.

Ah!  Same here.  ExBPD frequently split his mother black/white.   Mine also splits some of his siblings -- hasn't talked to one of them for years, yet praises and adores another one like she can do no wrong.  The father seems to be perpetually painted white though.

Gosh... so many similarities.  Eerie.   I wish I had known then, what I know now.  At the time, I put it down to him just having some baffing family dynamics (I mean, we all have crazy-making moments and weird relationships with family members).  But it's only after realizing the BPD element that the extreme and sudden vacillation between good/bad becomes a clear red flag.

[ellil]

At times, he couldn't wait to take me to his mother's and for me to spend "quality" time with her, and at others, he didn't want us to go anywhere near there and he had negative things to say about her.

Ah!  Same here.  ExBPD frequently split his mother black/white.   Mine also splits some of his siblings -- hasn't talked to one of them for years, yet praises and adores another one like she can do no wrong.  The father seems to be perpetually painted white though.

Gosh... so many similarities.  Eerie.   I wish I had known then, what I know now.  At the time, I put it down to him just having some baffing family dynamics (I mean, we all have crazy-making moments and weird relationships with family members).  But it's only after realizing the BPD element that the extreme and sudden vacillation between good/bad becomes a clear red flag.

My ex has two sisters, one he doesn't speak to and the other can do no wrong (sounds familiar, huh? ). Paints the mother black/white frequently. His father was murdered when he was 20 years old and has been probably the DEFINING moment of his life after that point. He harbors great guilt over the murder.

M

[dah1029]

My ex is the same way with his family.  He blows them off for weeks physically, but will interact by text or facebook.  Has negative things to say or would be silent if I complimented something about them, but seems to be ok with his mother.  I can tell even at the age of 80 that his father has a mood disorder which gets everyone annoyed.  Seems to enjoy the neices and nephews that he deems as "white".  Has rotten things to say about the others that aren't as "succesful or making choices that he agrees with".  And he's another one that rants about "all the things he does for others".  I would thank him pretty much daily for things he did for me-- even when I didn't ask for him to do something.  But yet in the end, he also threw that statement at me when I confronted him about behaviors and demands I had for him to continue in my life-- which was to get a  physical and get his depression treated.  But he went off the deep end over that demand.  How dare I, right?  After all he's done for me.  And you can't just thank them and move on,  They want adoring praise forever.  Whatever he did would get brought up months later even though I had thanked him. He had to keep remembering and reminding me of  whatever he had done for me.  

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[HowPredictable]

I'm so glad this thread exists, with its little "checklists" and multiple stories of similar experiences.  (And I'm grateful the moderators have allowed it to go on a bit longer than usual.  It's received a very large number of "views" already, so we must have hit a chord).

I know that if someone had put it in front of me when exBPD stopped idealizing me and started with his baffling behavior, I would have run for the hills.

More to the point, I am immensely consoled with the knowledge, that we may be saving some poor woman out there a lot of grief if she finds this thread.  Even a simple Google search for "boyfriend bites nails" could very well lead her here and save her alot of heartache.  

[redberry]

Mine had parents who seemed to demand perfection and, as anyone would, he routinely fell short of their expectations.  I think they would come down on him for some of that and it caused him to have these really inconsistent views of his parents that seemed to change from day to day.  One day they were pretty good in his mind, one day they seemed to be on his annoying people list.  But as soon as he needed something, he didn't hesitate to call them.  Of course, if they didn't give him what he wanted, he got upset with them--ignoring the many times they came to his rescue in the past.  But yet, I could tell he still felt like he had to measure up to this perfect child that they wanted him to be.  It was really a messed up relationship.  I can say, though, they have no idea some of the things he has done that are clearly against the value system they want to uphold.  It's like he lives a double live with them...  And everyone else.

[redberry]

The original thread was locked because it reached the limit for posts.

http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=169748.0

The contributions you guys have given to this thread have been incredibly helpful.  I hope to continue it here...

Mine had parents who seemed to demand perfection and, as anyone would, he routinely fell short of their expectations.  I think they would come down on him for some of that and it caused him to have these really inconsistent views of his parents that seemed to change from day to day.  One day they were pretty good in his mind, one day they seemed to be on his annoying people list.  But as soon as he needed something, he didn't hesitate to call them.  Of course, if they didn't give him what he wanted, he got upset with them--ignoring the many times they came to his rescue in the past.  But yet, I could tell he still felt like he had to measure up to this perfect child that they wanted him to be.  It was really a messed up relationship.  I can say, though, they have no idea some of the things he has done that are clearly against the value system they want to uphold.  It's like he lives a double live with them...  And everyone else. -Redberry

[PDQuick]

Ok folks, we have gone over 4 pages. Gotta put 'er in the stall and lock 'er up.

[HowPredictable]

Redberry, thanks for continuing the thread.  I was roaming around the Boards just now, looking for information on another aspect of BPD, when I happened to see a post of yours from 6 months ago.   Honestly, virtually EVERY one of these fits my exBPD as well.   (I'm starting to think we dated the same guy.)   

I hope you don't mind, I am reproducing your post, to keep the discussion going:

Redberry wrote on September 27, 2011:
I thought of starting a similar thread!  Interested to hear what quirks people name.  Here are mine...

-constantly texting me.
-did not really talk on the phone, only texted.
-if he did call, it was while I was at work or class or in the middle of the night.  Bad times.
-would call and if I missed it, he would sometimes come by.
-long drawn out texts, no conversation in person.
-wanted to move in with me within a week of dating.
-didn't want me to see other friend's or family, only him.
-wouldn't let me be alone, had to be with me all the time.
-dumped his friend's to be with me
-wanted sex constantly
-picked fights over nothing
-always quiet, rarely talked
-as soon as he started drinking, he was a different person and talked more
-bites his nails all the time
-seems to be mean to his dogs, they are well trained but seem scared of him
-hangs on me all the time in public, won't leave me alone to talk to friend's
-constantly wanted to touch, hug, kiss, in public to the point of embarrassment.
-baby talk and sort of whining
-would respond to friend's who wanted to hang out and tell them to come over but wouldn't tell me, they'd just show up and I didn't know they were coming.  Thought that was strange.  It's like he compartmentalizes relationships and didn't communicate basic info like that.
-would get all worked up over something trivial.
-stared off into space often
-attached to people and ignored me if we were fighting in public or he thought I was being difficult
-didn't like any of my friend's and made negative remarks about family
-sweats a lot (constant anxiety maybe?)
-lied to his friend's often when he didn't want to do something with them
-deleted texts from girls in his phone who he swore were just friend's.
-terrible with money, gambled with money he didn't have
-super competitive, bragged when he won got upset when he lost
-changed jobs often
-used everybody around him for something he needed/wanted, no true friend's
-interrputed constantly when I was talking and would never concede a point in an argument
-never used self depricating humor or made fun of himself
-had lots of trouble sleeping
-constantly changing flatmates
-rarely looked in mirrors it seemed
-rarely laughed unless he was drinking, didn't really talk unless drinking either
-would focus like a laser on minor projects and obsess over them

That's all I can think of for now.

[redberry]

Howpredictable, I am glad you could identify with that post.  What points, specifically, stick out for you and how did it make you feel to date someone who acted this way?

[bobbyc]

The predator the I call my ex always was chewing her finger tips, it would drive me insane. It I never mentioned it because her knowing I was unhappy from her childish behavior would only stroke her immature 5 year old baby like ego

[HowPredictable]

Howpredictable, I am glad you could identify with that post.  What points, specifically, stick out for you and how did it make you feel to date someone who acted this way?

It's much quicker if I just list the ones that did NOT resonate:  He didn't ask to move in, and had no flatmates, because he still lives with his parents. (!)  He has no dogs, and I wouldn't say he sweated alot.  But other than that... the entire list is him.   The *entire* list.

As for your second question:  How did I feel?  I have often pondered the question, of what (in retrospect) I must have been feeling at the time.  I kept a daily journal and I will have to go back and read it.  I do recall that I recognized the oddities, yet accepted most of these things without questioning them too deeply.   I never realized that I was being virtually beaten senseless with red flags...

[MarshaDole]

My exBPD bf has another trait that hasn't been mentioned here for male waifs, or at least I haven't seen it as yet on this board. He constantly loses and misplaces things. He lost his driver's license twice while with me, and his entire wallet twice within a year, plus his cell phone at least once. He constantly leaves things somewhere, and often they're quite important. He doesn't put his wallet in a secure pocket like most men but in a jacket pocket where it can easily fall out. Or he uses one of those attachments that clips to a belt but he was careless about that to the point I was always finding them around the house in odd places.

Now you would think that when something like this is missing, he would be worried and upset and search until finding the item. Nope. He was totally casual about it. He would say, "I don't know where my keys are (his key ring included copies of my house keys), but I'll just look for them tomorrow."

I never saw anyone so unconcerned about losing items of real importance. He had a post office box and lost the key to it several times. It cost him plenty (a hundred dollars each time) but it never seemed to bother him in the least.

On a more trivial note, he must have had something like 500 socks and none of them matched. He told me it was eaiser to just buy new ones than bother with sorting them, yet he never threw any of them out. He kept them in boxes on the floor on his side of the bed. The mess and disorganization of all this drove me crazy, but I loved him and did my best not to let it bother me.

But after he left and I was so upset at first, I started counting my blessings. No more stress and no more mess. Not to mention the sheer waste of his carelessness. He had entire boxes of gaedgets and routinely lost one of the parts or the directions or some crucial thing that went with a given item, and then he would just go buy new ones.

Can any of you relate to this? Did your male waif lose things, misplace things, waste things, accumulate added copies of things he couldn't find the parts to?

[redberry]

Howpredictable, I'm amazed that the list was so accurate for your ex.  The patterns for this disorder are so strong, and easy to see how the disorder is hidden.  Any five of those points could just be dismissed as quirks.  Taken together, though...  Big red flags.

Marsha, I can identify with losing things.  With mine, I would say it was a broader general carelessness.  He lost things, broke things, wrecked his bike, wrecked his car, lost his wallet all the time, lost his phone, lost keys, ID, credit cards, you name it.  Anything important and he lost it multiple times.  Not just misplaced, but completely lost with no idea where it is.  And he would repeat the behavior that, caused him to lose or destroy something before.  Never learning from past mistakes.  His carelessness unnecessarily cost him hundreds of dollars while we were together.  Money he didn't have.  Which only made him more upset.

[PDQuick]

OK folks, Im sorry to be the hair in the cake here. We can all go on about what our ex's did, and compare it to each other's stories. But in the end, all we will have done is amplify our confusion, and dig our heels in the sand so to speak. None of us are victims here, and that is something we all have to realize. By staying in the relationship, and our lack of tools, most of us enabled our ex's in their own behavior that we are describing. It is a simple truth.

Instead of complaining, and co-miserating here on the board, lets make this a productive discussion about what we saw, versus what we thought, and if you can see it clearly, what we should have done. We can't learn anything about the dynamics of these relationships, simply by listing their bad habits. We have guidelines that keep us productive, and on the path towards a happier, healthier life. Lets use this thread to learn, not just vent.

Excessive Anger, Excessive Blaming: It is recognized that most members have suffered emotional loses and abuse in their relationship with a “borderline”. Recognizing that the “borderline” is mentally ill, and understanding the role of this mental illness in the relationship is an important part of healing and recovery. Coming to terms with the abuse and/or understanding our roles is also part of healing and recovery.

[redberry]

Hi PDQuick, I can't speak for everyone here, but this has been one of the most helpful threads for me.  I just printed it out again before I read your post, so I was a little surprised by your message.  Maybe my tone isn't coming through properly in writing (and for that, I take fault), but I am certainly not trying to complain, just understand; and I don't consider myself a victim.  Frustrated at my behavior, sure, but that frustration is helping me to change.  I can't say the posts here have amplified my confusion; quite the opposite, in fact.  I am seeing this disorder with more clarity than I have ever experienced thanks to others who share so many stories of similar, hugely validating experiences.  I certainly played a role here, one I am discussing with my T.  In fact, our best session so far was yesterday afternoon--talking with the T about this particular thread.  Point by point, we dissected it to talk about both his behavior and my behavior.  Miles of progress.

 

[PDQuick]

Im really glad to hear that Redberry.   I wasn't talking about anyone's post in particular.

The greatest gift this board has given me was the hindsight into my role in this relationship. Once I started looking at my role, I could see why it all perpetuated. It completed my understanding of the dynamics of the relationship, and allowed me to completely understand. It is helpful to acknowledge similar traits, and to bond with others experience. It helps us feel not so isolated. But too much can lead to us being stuck in the though process as well.

Im just trying to keep it moving along. You are doing your part, and seeing that your own behavior in the relationship is frustrating. You are on the right track, as you can see by your success in your appointment yesterday. GREAT JOB!

[redberry]

Im really glad to hear that Redberry.   I wasn't talking about anyone's post in particular.

The greatest gift this board has given me was the hindsight into my role in this relationship. Once I started looking at my role, I could see why it all perpetuated. It completed my understanding of the dynamics of the relationship, and allowed me to completely understand. It is helpful to acknowledge similar traits, and to bond with others experience. It helps us feel not so isolated. But too much can lead to us being stuck in the though process as well.

Im just trying to keep it moving along. You are doing your part, and seeing that your own behavior in the relationship is frustrating. You are on the right track, as you can see by your success in your appointment yesterday. GREAT JOB!

I fully agree!  I'm trying not to get stuck and am making progress.  Slow, but solid progress and I am thankful for that--and for all of you!  The good people here and excellent moderators have been a godsend.  My focus is slowly shifting from my ex to me--which is the best way I know to make progress.  Getting there, one step at a time.

   to you all for keeping me strong and making the journey less lonely.

[seeking balance]

I can't speak for everyone here, but this has been one of the most helpful threads for me.  

Can you share with us what was helpful and why/how it effects your detachment process?

[united for now]

I'm trying not to get stuck and am making progress.  

Imagine that there is a commercial airline crash in the Atlantic Ocean near Rio de Janeiro and  216 passengers and 12 aircrew are killed.  

The NTSB is called in to assess the situation to determine what went wrong so that changes could be made for safer future commercial travel.  Suppose you are sitting and listing to the hearing, and you hear the following from the testifying investigators:

• 2 passengers overpaid for their tickets,
• the overhead storage latches broke when the plane hit the water,
• the pilot had a history of hemorrhoids,
• many of the trashcans at the airport had not been emptied,
• 1 flight attendant didn't pay her income taxes in 2003,
• the coffee pot had been broken for two days,
• and we, at the NTSB, really feel like we are making progress.

What would you think?

I would think they were lost and grasping at straws.

According to the APA, they key elements of personality disorders are defects in two of the following four - intimacy and/or empathy, self direction and/or self identity.  The definitions and scales for each are located here:
http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=468

Step 2 (in the margin) ---->

SELF-INQUIRY [Stage 2]:  Breakdown the loss (the situation) to understand it in a clear and balanced way - your part, your partner's part; what is normal relationship "stuff", what was abnormal; what was malicious, what was weakness, or what was ignorance. It's very important to detach from your emotions for this and look at things in a analytical way (use your inner witness). The best location for these discussions is [L3] Leaving: Detaching from the Wounds of a failed BPD Relationship. There are excellent reference articles and workshops discussions located in suggested reading.


By the way, the misleading stopping and starting of the aircraft stall warning alarm confused the pilot who then tried to increase altitude when he should have been decreasing it causing the plane to stall and fall from the sky.