When an accepted diagnosis isn't...

[Think About It...]

I need the good people of the board to sort out some phenomena I've seen recently in my wife.  Tell me if this makes any sense.

First, let me give you some background for those who haven't been around the whole time.  My wife was originally diagnosed during a partial hospital program after attempting suicide a couple of years ago following a 3 day stay in a psych ward.  My wife was diagnosed by 2 different mental health professionals at this facility, then was referred to DBT and screened by 2 more professionals before being accepted into the program.  She was thrown out roughly 6 months later for missing too many of the group sessions of DBT.

Fast forward to the current time.  A couple of weeks ago, my wife unprompted asked me if this site had any resources for people with BPD.  I said no, but if I did come across a similar site, I would pass along the information.  I checked out some of the sites listed under "Resources for people with BPD on here" and kindly passed along the links.  Initially, my wife was happy finding a community where the people were like her, with all the emptiness, shame and the instability of identity.  The problem was many of the people on some of these sites were open with some of their issues, like drugs, adultery, cutting and what have you.  Once my wife got into some of those topics, she was turned off because it reminded her of the group portion of DBT.  Her chief complaint about that was during the homework, the other class members would mention their struggles as a result of BPD, and it made her feel depressed.  Back to the boards, she said that she related to some of the struggles, but she wanted her own site "on her level" because she "wasn't that bad". 

Now, to make it clear, she's never denied the diagnosis, and she got it without any pushing from me.  She also doesn't deny the BPD per se.  It's just that she doesn't want anything to do with anyone with BPD that exhibits any sort of impulsive behavior.  She feels that as empty as she is, she's under control.  (Of course, she isn't, in my opinion at least.  The binge eating and random shopping sprees are two of her trigger behaviors.)

The question is how do you deal with such a mindset.  I'm not sure how to validate or otherwise deal, because I was confused.  Odd one...

[iluminati]

I need the good people of the board to sort out some phenomena I've seen recently in my wife.  Tell me if this makes any sense.

First, let me give you some background for those who haven't been around the whole time.  My wife was originally diagnosed during a partial hospital program after attempting suicide a couple of years ago following a 3 day stay in a psych ward.  My wife was diagnosed by 2 different mental health professionals at this facility, then was referred to DBT and screened by 2 more professionals before being accepted into the program.  She was thrown out roughly 6 months later for missing too many of the group sessions of DBT.

Fast forward to the current time.  A couple of weeks ago, my wife unprompted asked me if this site had any resources for people with BPD.  I said no, but if I did come across a similar site, I would pass along the information.  I checked out some of the sites listed under "Resources for people with BPD on here" and kindly passed along the links.  Initially, my wife was happy finding a community where the people were like her, with all the emptiness, shame and the instability of identity.  The problem was many of the people on some of these sites were open with some of their issues, like drugs, adultery, cutting and what have you.  Once my wife got into some of those topics, she was turned off because it reminded her of the group portion of DBT.  Her chief complaint about that was during the homework, the other class members would mention their struggles as a result of BPD, and it made her feel depressed.  Back to the boards, she said that she related to some of the struggles, but she wanted her own site "on her level" because she "wasn't that bad". 

Now, to make it clear, she's never denied the diagnosis, and she got it without any pushing from me.  She also doesn't deny the BPD per se.  It's just that she doesn't want anything to do with anyone with BPD that exhibits any sort of impulsive behavior.  She feels that as empty as she is, she's under control.  (Of course, she isn't, in my opinion at least.  The binge eating and random shopping sprees are two of her trigger behaviors.)

The question is how do you deal with such a mindset.  I'm not sure how to validate or otherwise deal, because I was confused.  Odd one...

[eeyore]

sounds like a convenient excuse not to have to be introspective.

[Wanda]

yep i beleive what eeyore says she is not accepting there is a problem all the way, most BPDs have some type of addiction or did in the past. she sounds like she doesn't want to see it so she doesn't want anything to do with BPD orgroups she would have to face her fears.
 all you can do is mention this and hope she overcomes it, but in the mean time take care of yourself, let her take care of this you can't force her to go or get help.   

[Chihiro]

Does she feel like dealing with other people's impulsive behaviors maybe is triggering to her? Maybe just see if she can elucidate how reading about others' impulsivity makes her feel.

[iluminati]

Does she feel like dealing with other people's impulsive behaviors maybe is triggering to her? Maybe just see if she can elucidate how reading about others' impulsivity makes her feel.

Well, I did ask her to elucidate about that whole scenario.  What she told me was that if she couldn't specifically relate to what was going on, it was upsetting to hear about the pain of someone else, and she didn't want to hear it at all. 

To me, it seems a bit self-centered not to be able to emphasize with other people's issues.  However, this is a disorder where there's a massive lack of empathy.  I probably shouldn't be surprised.

[argyle]

Dunno.  People are people - and there are differences between people - including perfectly sane ones. Even if people seem the same from outside, they'll see differences. This is just normal.

If those are behaviors that she doesn't exhibit - she may well find them upsetting - particularly if she's highly sensitive.  Seems reasonable to me. If they're close, or things she's tempted by, they'll be more upsetting.  Normal too.

--Argyle
*Ranging from Mandarin Chinese who shun Cantonese Chinese, to gay men who shun tranvestites and transexuals, heck, even to people who get irritated at the whole 'Asian' label**...humans aren't really that good at empathy.  All nice people...and people I've met.
**Y'know, lumping together cultures where the typical ideal solution towards the other culture involves genocide...eh.

[Chihiro]

I would agree with Eeyore that it sounds like she is avoiding reflecting on her own impulsivity in her avoidance of contemplating others'.  That is her right to do, but as you know, it's her issue, not yours.

Also, can't she do a simple google search for BPD on her own?  Why is it left to you to find a forum that suits her needs/wants? 

One other thing - her response that reading about other people's pain that she can't directly relate to is too upsetting to her doesn't sound like a lack of empathy - it sounds like maybe an overload of it.  Like she feels their pain too much and can't deal with it. 

[chiyo]

i agree with chihiro; my BPDh is very controlling about what media we watch together; nothing can be too sad or upsetting or it ruins his night! only lowbrow comedies for us...but i think he is so sensitive it really does bug him that much. as for the lack of empathy, true, i have firsthand experienced a lot of being "blacklisted" by him, but i think that lack of empathy is reserved for people he knows very well; people who dare to be human and make mistakes..
    ...i do feel bad for him that he is so sensitive to be bothered by every little thing, even by popular shows or normal dramas or reality tv. can you imagine feeling hurt by that? how terrible!

[real lady]

I would agree with Eeyore that it sounds like she is avoiding reflecting on her own impulsivity in her avoidance of contemplating others'.  That is her right to do, but as you know, it's her issue, not yours.

illuminati: I wonder if she is "minimalizing" her own behavior by saying "I am NOT AS BAD as them"; helping her to stay in denial. Focusing on their impulsivity as being outstanding; she can say that there are others who are "worse" and she "can't relate to them".

good luck with that...

[CodependentHusband]

Also, can't she do a simple google search for BPD on her own?  Why is it left to you to find a forum that suits her needs/wants? 

I'm not trying to negate your point here, because I think I see what you are after: How much of an interest is Illuminati's wife taking in educating herself on BPD? Have you read the majority of what comes up when Googling BPD? Most of it, I'm discouraged to say, is so overwhelmingly negative and biased that I'm glad my wife (to my knowledge) hasn't been reading a lot about BPD online. One of the main reasons I frequent THIS site is that it seems to be the most objective, and actually offers some hope for improvement, no matter what decisions one chooses.


Anyway, I think I can see how a support group for BPD's may be triggering to some of the high-functioning BPD sufferers. For those of you who don't know or remember, my dBPDw is my second marriage... My first marriage was to an alcoholic. I see some similar patterns in behavior here with denial. My first wife seemed to have some recognition of what alcohol has done to her life. So much so that she went to a few AA meetings. After about three meetings she said, "That's not for me. Those people are all on skid row." I don't know if that is some kind of rationalization, or if there was a genuine inability on her part to identify with stories that seemed more intense than her experience. No matter what the case is, I can relate to the sense of dashed hope when someone you love with BPD seems so very close to finally getting some real help, only to watch them backslide. Bottom line is that she either needs to find a way to endure it to get the help that she needs, or find some other source of help that she can relate to... You already know this, I'm sure, but the key thing is that SHE has to be the one doing it.

[iluminati]

Bottom line is that she either needs to find a way to endure it to get the help that she needs, or find some other source of help that she can relate to... You already know this, I'm sure, but the key thing is that SHE has to be the one doing it.

Agreed.  I didn't force this on her.  She asked, and I freely obliged on the forum thing.  She told me she also told her Pdoc that she asked to re-enter the DBT program at her facility.  I'm not saying that's a guarantee, but it's at least something on her end showing that she freely wants help.

At this point, I don't care what she does.  She can get help, or not.  I'm moving on with my life.  I'm also not enough of a monster to deny her help when she clearly asks for it.

[CodependentHusband]

At this point, I don't care what she does.  She can get help, or not.  I'm moving on with my life.  I'm also not enough of a monster to deny her help when she clearly asks for it.

Of course not. To the contrary. You want the best for her, like we all do. You wouldn't be on the Staying board if you didn't want the best for her. So many of us wish our pwBPD were at the same place as yours. I would be floored if my wife ever asked ME for help! Anyway, keep looking for a match. Hopefully you can find something with a greater mix of high-functioning BPD's that she can relate to better.

[Steph]

 It makes sense to me.

She has a diagnosis where some peoples symptoms are different and worse than she shows and it makes her uncomfortable. I think it would be like someone who was just diagnosed with diabetes going to a support group and meeting people who have endstage kidney disease and amputations, as a result of the same illness she was diagnosed with. I can relate to that sort of pain and scary stuff and even fear..is this me in the future? What if I cannot control my illness and I end up like this?

  I think some validation might work well here..find out more about what is scares her and then strive to get it and let her know when you do get it.

If she IS scared, then she can learn that DBT and schema are there to help her manage the BPD symptoms.

Validation: Yea, I can see the differences there. BPD has lots of different symptoms and some people do xyz. You are right, that doesnt sound like you"

Validation: " It would be scary to read about how some people really have some huge struggles with this stuff! I get it"

etc etc etc..
" I am not that bad" is a typical human response to lots of stuff that is scary, not just BPD, and hopefully, she will give the sites another chance. Maybe she can take it in little doses and stick to the topics that are comfortable for now, as she puts her toes in the water?

 I am really happy she asked about this, and with a little support, I bet she will start to learn something helpful, as well.

[Auspicious]

A therapist (like, say, a DBT therapist) would likely also help her sort this stuff out - why others in the group might be worse off then her, etc.

If she were in DBT, the individual session therapist would address her concerns about group (assuming she made them known).

[iluminati]

Steph, I think you nailed it.  If you're scared of being sick, seeing the ultimate result of the disease wouldn't be fun.  Also, I think there might be some FOO issues mixed in as well, since my wife's FOO has a tendency to deny illnesses until they get to horrible points.  What was interesting to hear her say is that she doesn't know why hearing such things upset her, but they do.  If she doesn't know, she can't tell me.  I'll leave that question up to the pros.

Speaking of the pros, Auspicious, my wife will find out in the next week or two if she'll be readmitted to the DBT program.  They have to have a mental health team meeting to determine the next batch of patients to be admitted to the program.  Oddly, they've mentioned as a particular option enrolling her in a DBT skills class with a regular psychotherapist to help her out.  I suppose my wife will get more information one way or another soon.

[Steph]

Steph, I think you nailed it.  If you're scared of being sick, seeing the ultimate result of the disease wouldn't be fun.  Also, I think there might be some FOO issues mixed in as well, since my wife's FOO has a tendency to deny illnesses until they get to horrible points.  What was interesting to hear her say is that she doesn't know why hearing such things upset her, but they do.  If she doesn't know, she can't tell me.  I'll leave that question up to the pros.

Speaking of the pros, Auspicious, my wife will find out in the next week or two if she'll be readmitted to the DBT program.  They have to have a mental health team meeting to determine the next batch of patients to be admitted to the program.  Oddly, they've mentioned as a particular option enrolling her in a DBT skills class with a regular psychotherapist to help her out.  I suppose my wife will get more information one way or another soon.

 I am glad she told you that reading that stuff upset her. It would upset me, too, if that was me. Makes sense!

And I will keep my fingers crossed for the DBT thing to happen again. Can you somehow let her know that you know at least one person who is now happy, whole and well because of DBT? Its definately worth hanging in there with it!

[DeityorDevil]

Without  knowing much about your situation, I might suggest that a forum directed toward people who have borderline is going to have some inherent chaos, and a lot of airing of grievances. I don't think being put off by that is a denial of other people's suffering, or a lack of empathy. I think it would be fairly difficult for anyone to try and follow along myriad trains of rapidly shifting thoughts. Folks on this board are here to try and understand just one person with borderline, to say nothing of dozens, if not hundreds.