Do these kids know anything about gratitude?

[Think About It...]

Just wondering if lack of gratitude is part of this disorder?  I took my daughter down to Florida with me and her 7 month old son and she has done little but btch and complain for this entire month.   I just don't get it.  My sister came down from Alabama for a week and was trying to help her by getting her a sweatshirt that would fit her (Yes, she's pregnant again) and all she got for her trouble was to be told off for "smirking". 

I've taken her out for dinner.  Bought her treats.  Given her money to get ice cream or whatever she wants.  Bought her baby boy tons of cloths and supplies.  She is fixated on getting a $30 sweatshirt.  That's all she cares about.  She tried to con me, our family, her boyfriend into giving her $ for it.  I said if she does get any $ she should buy the baby the probiotics that cost the same amount and said I refuse to do give in to this...It has gone on for 5 days!  All she says is she hates it here, can't wait to go home, and hates me. 

She doesn't even live with us.  She has never had this opportunity to spend this kind of quality time with her son.  And, again, all she does is complain about him.  I could just cry.  Or smack her. 

[Alabama]

Just wondering if lack of gratitude is part of this disorder?  I took my daughter down to Florida with me and her 7 month old son and she has done little but btch and complain for this entire month.   I just don't get it.  My sister came down from Alabama for a week and was trying to help her by getting her a sweatshirt that would fit her (Yes, she's pregnant again) and all she got for her trouble was to be told off for "smirking". 

I've taken her out for dinner.  Bought her treats.  Given her money to get ice cream or whatever she wants.  Bought her baby boy tons of cloths and supplies.  She is fixated on getting a $30 sweatshirt.  That's all she cares about.  She tried to con me, our family, her boyfriend into giving her $ for it.  I said if she does get any $ she should buy the baby the probiotics that cost the same amount and said I refuse to do give in to this...It has gone on for 5 days!  All she says is she hates it here, can't wait to go home, and hates me. 

She doesn't even live with us.  She has never had this opportunity to spend this kind of quality time with her son.  And, again, all she does is complain about him.  I could just cry.  Or smack her. 

[Violet719]

Yes, I think lack of gratitude can be part of BPD.  In order to feel gratitude, you have to understand what the other person sacrificed or gave up on your behalf. My BPDD cannot comprehend that the things I do for her and her two young children are sacrifices for me.  That I would actually spend my time differently - I would HAVE A LIFE OF MY OWN -  if I weren't spending it looking after her kids and cleaning up after all three of them.  She can't imagine that I have that much else to do.  She simply expects it and takes it for granted. ("Well, you're going to spend the evening at home anyway; why can't you just babysit?") She doesn't seem to realize that the thousands of dollars I've spent because of her early motherhood mean that I have to put off getting things that I wanted or fixing up my old house.  Her response is, "who cares what the house looks like?"  She doesn't get it, because she can't see the world through anyone else's eyes or feel their pain. Maybe it's lack of empathy; maybe something else.  But I'm sure it's part of the BPD. And the sad thing is that I would have given all these things freely, without expecting anything in return, if she had simply told me honestly and directly that she needed and appreciated them.  But she never really ASKS (she does, but there is no choice of answers), and she never expresses any appreciation of how we have changed our very lives for her.  I don't think she is capable of understanding that.  

[sophieb]

I have wondered this myself.  The very thing that i feel saved my life was gratitude..  appreciation.  i have practiced appreciating what i had, no matter how small..  and it's been to my HUGE benefit.
that was one benefit/teaching from my mother... appreciate what you have is better than complaining about what you don't.
My daughter has had a people in her life willing to do what they can... staying with others with major disruptions, a warm place, yadda, yadda, yadda but all she does is tell me how horrible it is.. while staying.. 

Today i am at my wits end...  i have left my ungrateful spawn to stew in her own garbage for the afternoon.

sophie

[j's friend]

DD has many Npd traits and I have often wondered if she is more Npd than Bpd because of her lack of gratitude.

DD just expects things to fall into her lap and gets into a rage when they dont. If she asks for it today...she expects it tomorrow. She doesnt appreciate all the hardwork people put in for her and how they try to accomodate her. Even her college tried to accomodate her to keep her there, but it still wasnt good enough for her and she decided to leave.She always seems underwhelmed  with what we give her and do for her on her birthday, she never takes care of the things she is given, only expecting them to be replaced again, doesnt care that I have given up my free time to drive her here or there or to pick her up,( once I was 5 mins late as she got into a rage), or even about the countless meals I cook that she doesnt come home to eat. ?

[tiredmommy2]

DD just expects things to fall into her lap and gets into a rage when they dont. If she asks for it today...she expects it tomorrow. She doesnt appreciate all the hardwork people put in for her and how they try to accomodate her.

Same here, and my daughter has been like this for as long as I can remember. I have been trying to teach my daughter to be grateful since she was a toddler, and like many other things, she doesn't really have a concept of this. She'll say that she's grateful sometimes (maybe because she knows that I want her to be), but her behavior doesn't show it.

I've also taken my daughter on trips where she behaved like a spoiled brat. I bought her things (souvenirs, clothes, ice cream ect.), but she always wanted more, and when I eventually say no, she'll have a meltdown. Saying no is all it takes to send her into a rage where she'll start demanding that I take her home. Who cares if the rest of us are having fun, right?   

To avoid the drama, I try hard not to take her on any family vacations. Despite this, she tries to sabotage my vacations from a distance, and actually succeeded a couple of times, so I've learned my lesson about that, and always try to have a plan for when I go away.  It's so sad that it has to be this way.

I know that you're both in FL together, but could you get away for a day so that you can actually enjoy yourself? Or perhaps a few hours?  It would be a shame to be on vacation and not able to enjoy it.

[Alabama]

Sounds like we have all given birth to the same child...

It was so bad that I actually decided to pack it in a few days early and go to my sister's for a couple of days before heading back home.  DD(BPD) is always just a little bit better around other people.  She was ok with my sister and wonderful when my momma and aunt came over for a visit.  But they have her number...I found out at the end of the visit that my mom, aunt, and cousins didn't come to meet us at the beach as planned because of DD's ongoing behaviour.  That made me so sad.  Especially because they missed out on visiting with the baby.  My mom (and her twin) are 81 this year and I feel sad that they didn't come on vacation because of DD.  I had also hoped to be able to go out for a few hours with my sister and family while we were in Alabama but my sister was brave enough to tell me that she didn't want to leave DD in her house alone (DD stole $ from me on this trip to buy cigarettes and has stolen from several other family members in the past).  That really limited what we could do together.  So I just gave up and drove home yesterday (14 hours! Ugh!)

I dropped DD off at my other daughter's today where she will stay for 2 weeks.  This is her 8th residence in 8 months.  All I can do is sigh in relief that she is gone.  And she was not one bit grateful for this trip or the time she was able to spend with her son.  All she did was cuss me out that she has to go back to supervised access through CPS! 

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[lbjnltx]

many w/BPD/BPD traits have an incredible sense of entitlement.  they can never get enough...one "no" amongst 100 "yes's" can send them into a rage.  after therapuetic inpatient care i can remind my dd15 of all the "yes's" she received in the recent past and just yesterday i told her "perhaps you get so many yes's that no is hard to hear"...no reply.

they live in the moment...every request is the be all and end all for many of them.

lbjnltx

[wileybunch]

Sounds like we have all given birth to the same child...

Yes, we have. And, it's frustrating because she was taught and the behavior was never acceptable, but you can't control what another person does.  In my daughter's case, her dad left when she was just turning 2 and I think that scarred her or set off what may have been part of her make up and I don't think she's ever figured out how to deal with that loss.  We divorced and he literally spent her entire life and her sister that's 16 mo older wasting time messing up his life. He's in her life now for the past several years, but she'll be 30 this year and she still have serious issues with not recognizing normal boundaries and we always feel so hurt and used when we do so much for her and her kids and then she writes us off over some imaginary terrible offense.  We try to have healthy boundaries. It's just not possible.  Although we feel used when the depth of her ingratitude is bottomless after going out of our way to do things for her, but I don't think she purposes "uses" us. I think she just literally disconnects everything into separate pieces and has a very immature and highly emotionally charged way of dealing with any irritation or frustration in her life and she turns little things into WW3.  She's very mercenary in her way of dealing with people.  I wonder if she'll ever outgrow it.

[mikmik]

Funny on this, my dd18 asks me to list off what I have "ever done for her".  When I list off things, she says that is all just normal stuff that parent are supposed to do for their kids.  WHAT special have you ever done for me, she demands.  Then she lists off stuff I do with her sister and classifies that as special, like attending her plays, concerts, going to movies with her.  Sis is in college and majoring in performance.  So, yes, I drive to see her in events. like three or four times a year.  I tell dd18 that if she were in productions or displayed her art, or any such thing, I would attend those as well and celebrate her tremendous talent as an artist.  But, as she chooses not to participate in those things, it is hard for me to attend "special events".  I ask dd to watch movies with me, go out shopping, go to the zoo, anything, but she refuses. When I point out that I try to find special things for us to do together, she says I don't get it.  When I ask her to let me know what would be special for the two of us to do together, she tells me if I were a good mother, I would know.  Loose loose trap.

I wonder if she just does not know what will satisfy her.  She sees the efforts we make with sis, but is blind to the extreme efforts we make for her.  Sis will seldom even come back home due to dd18.  Due to BPD I have effectively lost two children.  Are you pwBPD at a loss to know what to do that will bring them joy?


mikmik

[Battle Weary]

mikmik,

Ah yes--the old " If I were a good mother, I would know" routine.  The fact is they don't really know what would fill the emptiness and soothe the pain anymore than a baby knows what is making them cry and how to make it go away.  With a baby it's your job to know whether it's food, a change of diapers or whatever.  These kids think it's still your job to figure it out for them and tend to it because they can't do it for themselves.  Therein lies the problem.  Until they can fill the hole themselves, they look to us and blame us because we can't do this for them much as we would like.

[heronbird]

Wow, so interesting, good thread

My dd goes absouloutly mad if she cant find any food in the house, well you know what I mean, theres always food but it has to be what she wants, which is difficult because she goes through fazzes.

One day, she wanted to make eggy bread and there was no eggs, she went mad says things like, come on Mum this is just not on, its ridiculas, I am paying keep (minnimum) and then she carries on ranting and raving, we live two mins from the shops, she just sleeps all day and lazes around, gosh shed be so upset if she knew  I said that

Then shell storm off to her room and be so angry. I fortunatly have a good neighbour, so I went and asked her if I could borrow some eggs last week, white bread this week, oh yes has to be white, we had brown but thats no good.

But yes I agree they do not seem to have gratitude mostly, but maybe when they are in normal mode from time to time thats when she will say to me, thankyou for getting the eggs for me, and I have to just say oh thats ok, and be cheary, hopefully she might learn from my ways. Big hopes, actually I like that for a name for me, heronbird is bit strange hehe

[Reality]

heronbird
By the way, I love your name, as it reminds me of those wise ancient birds, that I love more than any other creature.  It is true.  I have always been stilled whenever I see a Great Blue Heron up north.  That is my imput, so maybe you won't change your name.  Ha ha
What you said about your daughter's demands for food, that it has to be just so, is totally like my son.  I will make a delicious pasta with seafood and he will tell me that no, he really doesn't like seafood anymore and why didn't I know that.  That's the weird eating issue piece of BPD, again caused by the emotional dysregulation.  Everything has to be their way or the high way, probably because of that pain-stone they carry.
It is very exhausting.
Yikes!
How do we bear this trouble?
Reality

[heronbird]

I love herons thats why I used that name, but it looks like heroin 
Your pasta dish sounds lovely, yes isnt it strange about the food.  She eats the same thing over and over again then gets sick of it because shes obsessed with it, at the moment its wraps with chorizo and cheese in. So I have to make sure I have wraps in the cupboard, but then that changed a few days ago and its eggybread all the time.
She went to a Church holiday once about 3 years ago and I told the caterer that dd loves rice pudding,  she was crazy on it. She said to the caterer she hates it, but the caterer kept giving it to her because I told her that haha
And the amount of times Ive thrown stuff away, you watch, it will be eggs and white bread next haha

[bigtoe]

My daughter absolutely has no gratitude for anything. I think its part of the whole lack of empathy for others. No ability to see beyond their own selfish needs. My daughter demands, demands, demands. She will fixate on one thing that she perceives she needs and then is relentless in her quest to get it. Constant and repetitive phone calls and when I don't respond to those, a barrage of texts an emails. Its like an itch that can't be scratched. It s almost a game that she wants to win and then if she gets that need satisfied, its on to something else. I have finally learned this and don't give in anymore. Its difficult because she tries to bully me into getting what she wants until I finally give in just to shut her up.
I am divorced single mother of 4 who's BPD/ASPD husband lives in another state and has never paid child support or had any contact with his children. I sacrificed to buy her a small SUV which she never appreciated and wrecked several times . Never apologizing and just expecting me to keep fixing it and paying expenses. I finally had to take it away and sell it. After that, in a weak moment I let her have an older family car to drive. She considered it beneath her to drive it and told me that she would drive it into a concrete barrier if I didn't supply her with another better car. She did this (drove it into a concrete pylon on . purpose) and more- drove it drunk twice resulting in wrecks. Fortunately, no one was injured, unfortunately, she wasn't charged. I paid to tow and fix this car 3 times and then finally took it away as well. I couldn't keep paying for it nor live with myself if she hurt someone else. She considers me "mean" for taking away the cars. Now she has contacted her father ( just out of rehab himself) and has manipulated him into buying a car for her. It scares me to death but its not my problem anymore. Her latest fixation and demand from me is a valuable violin (she will hock it) and dance lessons. I just don't respond with arguments anymore. I just say no or don't respond at all. Its very freeing. She doesn't care how hard I have to work or how tired I am. She doesn't appreciate that I pay her rent, utilities, college tuition ( which is now into the 6th year because she keeps dropping out). She has no job and I doubt she can get one because her work record is so spotty- not showing up, getting fired, being drunk.
She is now 23 and I am in the process of trying to get her off the dole. I just can't keep doing it- physically or financially.

[somuchlove]

I can certainly hear all that has been said here.  Some times m BPD is very appreciative.  It is interesting how she can be so  un appreciative and then when she wants something, I can always tell when she first starts the phone conversation, she is nice.  If she is in a mood I get the I am such a looser, sorry to bother you, the abrupt THANK YOU ! I can feel that one even in a text.  I sometimes think she uses it as a way to get validation, makes it ok if I say that is ok,  and then I should give her more.  It is probably guilt on her part, if she can feel that? I don't know,  CAN THEY FEEL GUILT?

What I also find interesting is her strong expectation of her little ones to say thanks and be mannerly.  She sees the importance of their doing it. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

I never know how to respond when something like,  I went to some work mailing a box of things to them, of which I was excited and hoped she would enjoy, yet I don't even get a text saying they got it.  If I ask did you get it I sometimes get yes,  then I ask, did they like it, or did it fit, or something and she responds with a yes,  Thankyou.

I just want to scream at her.  respond with you are so unappreciative, don't ever ask me to do anything for you again...  I know I can't do that  but boy do I want to tell her how it hurts my feelings.  I always think the next time she ask for something I want to speak my mind.   

This is so hard...I know I don't send for the thank you and I know it might upset her as she feels sometimes she ask to much of us, or she says she does.   which leads me to thinking, I might start another thread on my next question.

[lbjnltx]

My daughter demands, demands, demands. She will fixate on one thing that she perceives she needs and then is relentless in her quest to get it. Constant and repetitive phone calls and when I don't respond to those, a barrage of texts an emails. Its like an itch that can't be scratched. It s almost a game that she wants to win and then if she gets that need satisfied, its on to something else. I have finally learned this and don't give in anymore. Its difficult because she tries to bully me into getting what she wants until I finally give in just to shut her up.

inability to delay gratification...my dd15, as much as she has improved still struggles with this.  i have found that if i distract her to another subject or an activity that she gets off the demand and can wait temporarily for a response.  i am trying to teach her patience by replying..."let me give that some thought" or "i'll talk to dad about it and let you know our decision."  she is definitly getting better at waiting.

lbjnltx

[parent of bpd daughter]

No - they don't - whatever you give it will NEVER BE ENOUGH! Just try and say that to yourself each time you sacrifice your time, money, or whatever. They will NEVER BE HAPPY - NEVER HAVE ENOUGH...

It is sad and frustrating - but Very True.. they will never have enough.

I've learned to give FOR ME .. to make ME feel better - it has nothing to do with BPDD anymore - and ALL to do with me now... to make ME feel good. They cannot have gratitude - very sad to go thru life that way, I actually feel very sorry for them - being grateful is a wonderful feeling and warms your heart - but they cannot ever feel it - it is sad.

It is like they have a big hole in them that can never be filled.

[j's friend]

mikmik~ dd has also accused me of not ever doing anything for her.She had the family therapist convinced that I didnt spend anytime time with her even though I can reel off things I have done .Its hard when a stranger is accusing you of being emotionally cold to your own child and starving her of attention and affection and that you need more parenting skills but dd is so convincing.  ?


Heronbird ~ I thought my dd was the only one who gets obsessed with eating the same foods every day over and over again.
Its always the cheapest brands and quickest to prepare kinds of foods like, pot noodles, cheap noodles, beans with the tiny sausages and pizza... always lots of junk and carbs.
Even though my dd is actually a good cook  I dont think she can be bothered to take the time to prepare a good meal for herself. I have refused to get them anymore when I do the shopping because if they are there thats all my dd will eat. My dd hates food shopping and wont buy them for herself so she doesnt eat them so much now, but I think I could put up with your dd's choices of foods. Rice pudding and eggy bread doesnt sound too bad

[mikmik]

J'sgriend and Heron,

My dd only wants certain (the same thing over and over) restaurant food.  She will often say my food does not taste right (good?) and insist on a certain sandwich from certain restaurants.. If I do cook and if she does eat it, it the same three or four things.  It is hard to try new recipes.  I wonder if food is the next thing on the commonalities list, along with sleep issues, lack of gratitude, rages, lying...

dd18's dad tells me over and over, "No matter what you do, or what you don't do for her, it will be wrong".  I think this back to the idea Reality shared about their difficulty to self sooth, and they are so wildly looking to us to help them find comfort.   Trouble is, I guess, is they don't really know what they need and are so frustrated.  And as they are older, the tools they use to get our attention (vs a baby crying) are so annoying and counter productive to their endgame.  However, as I read this thread, it seems we mothers and fathers still try to sooth these kids.  Some primal connection we have keeps pushing us to try.  What are they looking for, what do they need? 

mikmik

[lbjnltx]

What are they looking for, what do they need? 

a sense of who they are
high level coping skills
emotional maturity
confidence