Is sleep an issue with your pwBPD?

[Think About It...]

In reading some of the recent threads, some members have suggested trying to find commonalities among our BPDs.  I have seen that in a few reads, that sleep is an issue.  It is with my dd18!  Night owl.  As a baby, she began to stop napping around 12-15mos.  Stopped altogether at 18 months.  Even in preschool, when all the kids were sleeping at rest time, she was wide awake.  Family doc, P, T, us, everyone has told her to regulate her sleep.  She refuses (or can't?).  Sleeps into the afernoon.   If on the rare occassion she goes to bed at a normal time (before midnight) she still feels exhausted (her words) after hours of sleep.  P knows this, and says it isn't her meds.  Maybe part of the depression aspect of BPD?  Got medical leave from her first semester of college. Hard to go to class if you are sleeping.

 For me, it seems SO simple.  Go to bed, get sleep, get up, go to school.  Do your homework, chores, etc.  I did it, so it must be right (ha).  Are any of you having sleep issues with your pwBPD?  Has it always kinda been there, the sleep issue?  Signs were there for me, but it really came about when her BPD emerged just before the 7th grade.  It feels like if we can comprise a list, it would be of some benefit to us as well as parents of younger kids, maybe even help them in their school journey.  My d's HS and Middle School had no clue about BPD and what the issues are surrounding this disorder. My  dd was diagnoised after HS graduation.  And can someone tell me where spell check is on this site?  I rely on it.


mikmik

[mikmik]

In reading some of the recent threads, some members have suggested trying to find commonalities among our BPDs.  I have seen that in a few reads, that sleep is an issue.  It is with my dd18!  Night owl.  As a baby, she began to stop napping around 12-15mos.  Stopped altogether at 18 months.  Even in preschool, when all the kids were sleeping at rest time, she was wide awake.  Family doc, P, T, us, everyone has told her to regulate her sleep.  She refuses (or can't?).  Sleeps into the afernoon.   If on the rare occassion she goes to bed at a normal time (before midnight) she still feels exhausted (her words) after hours of sleep.  P knows this, and says it isn't her meds.  Maybe part of the depression aspect of BPD?  Got medical leave from her first semester of college. Hard to go to class if you are sleeping.

 For me, it seems SO simple.  Go to bed, get sleep, get up, go to school.  Do your homework, chores, etc.  I did it, so it must be right (ha).  Are any of you having sleep issues with your pwBPD?  Has it always kinda been there, the sleep issue?  Signs were there for me, but it really came about when her BPD emerged just before the 7th grade.  It feels like if we can comprise a list, it would be of some benefit to us as well as parents of younger kids, maybe even help them in their school journey.  My d's HS and Middle School had no clue about BPD and what the issues are surrounding this disorder. My  dd was diagnoised after HS graduation.  And can someone tell me where spell check is on this site?  I rely on it.


mikmik

[pattyt]

My undiagnosed BPDDD20 has always (from birth?) shown traits of this disorder.  It was mostly kept in check with healthy food and adequate sleep in stable home environment. 
Once she turned 18 she moved out of our home and in with a boyfriend who has big issues of his own, and lives in squalor, eats junk, doesn't sleep.  This has caused her to go from "normal with quirks" to full-blown BPD. 

Before, she was in school, had hobbies, accomplishments, goals.
Now, nothing but heartache, depression, stalled-out life.

We tried to turn it around.  She (and boyfriend) moved in with us for a month.  Nothing to show for that experiment except we are out $2,000 spent on their needs, they moved out in a huff and we haven't heard anything from them for over a month - no answers to phone calls, texts or e-mails (even though they only live a few miles away).  All they left was bad feelings and fleas (from the cat who was forced upon us).

Taught us we need some boundaries.  Trying to learn how to talk to her (if she ever talks to us again) and how to deal with all this.

Yeah, seems like sleep is a BIG issue here.  Sleep is difficult for me, too, worrying about her.

[Reality]

I compiled this list hastily in the Aspergers thread.

Early Indications for BPD
1. A family history of Aspergers or Autism, Highly Sensitive Personality,
2. Characteristics of an HSP (maybe that sweet quality, the charm, as in a trance)
3. Odd behavior at an early age, maybe a zaniness or could be a withdrawn, non-reactive,       outsider stance
4. Not achieving at potential in Elementary School
5. High Verbal IQ
6. Slight awkwardness with fine motor skills, indicated by reluctance to write
7. Sleep issues at an early age, with difficulty settling at night
8. Usually very good-looking children ( I think that is why they are at risk.  They don't look as if they could ever have a problem in the world.  How could such a beautiful child be experiencing feelings of abandonment, nobody liking them when he/she is obviously a star? )
9.  Brilliant sense of humour
10. Artistic ability
11. Unusual attachment to familiar physical objects
12. Likes broken objects, castaways, old clothes
13. Cold hands and feet

Immediate Interventiom for Team of Support, including Mental Health Workers and Special Education teachers is critical with the following:
1. Drug Use
2. Poor Attendance at school, a month of poor attendance should raise the red flag FAST
3. Anger Management issues
4. Sleep Issues, creating a crazy daily pattern

I have added some more ideas.  Any feedback would be appreciated.
Reality

[pattyt]

Early Indications for BPD
5. High Verbal IQ
8. Usually very good-looking children
9.  Brilliant sense of humour
10. Artistic ability

Immediate Interventiom for Team of Support, including Mental Health Workers and Special Education teachers is critical with the following:
3. Anger Management issues

Any feedback would be appreciated.
Reality

The above are the only things that applied to my dd as a child.  Except for the anger management issues, seems like she'd have it made, huh?

[Reality]

mikmik
I hope you are okay with this list on your thread about sleep.  You mentioned a list and I thought it might be useful for you and others; however, now I realize I should have started another thread.  Sorry.
Reality

[Reality]

mikmik
I have moved my hi-jack to a new thread.  Thanks for the inspiration.
Reality

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[Hopefulmum]

Yes! Yes !  As a child my daughter was always falling asleep everywhere...we have pictures of her before kindergarten sleeping on the back of the sofa, in the midst of toys, asleep half way through a meal, everywhere.  I put her in afternoon kindergarten because I didn't think she could get up for the morning one.  She went to bed at 8 p.m. or latest 8:30 - but she needed a lot of sleep in elementary school.   We insisted on decent bedtimes until probably the end of 10th grade at which time we started to let her make many more decisions about these things (thinking she was going to be an adult soon).

We also had a difficult time keeping her in her own bed - we never knew whose bed she would be in in the morning.  She would sneak into her brother's bed or try to get in ours and if that didn't work she would sleep on the floor beside the bed.

A huge problem is that she doesn't seem to comprehend that you need sleep to function and even if the doctor talks to her about how important it is - she just doesn't seem to get it.  She often complained in recent years of nightmares and difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep.  Then again she doesn't do things that would help you sleep - like not drinking tons of caffeine drinks and red bull.

Hopefulmum

[j's friend]

I think I noticed that dd17,s sleeping habits changed when she was about 14. Either she was really tired or she could stay awake for days. For a few years she always wanted to stay up late to watch something or the other on tv but seemed ok to get up for school in the morning, but then last year it seemed to change again.Sometimes she would need to go to bed as soon as she came home from school,sometimes it would be for a few hours or she would sleep the whole night, and at other times she would stay awake way into the morning on school nights and I would often wake up to find dd flicking through the tv channels. I would tell her to go to bed and then I would hear her tossing and turning all night, and when I would wake her up for school she would often say that she had only gotten a few hours sleep and she was still awake at 4am.

[j's friend]

I forgot to add that dd likes to sleep with her phone beside her in bed. Shes been doing it for years now and she says that she feels lonely without her phone. Has anyone else noticed this?

[trytrytry]

Once again, Yes, Yes and Yes again.  My DD had some sleep problems as a child but come the teen age years  it was either she slept all the time, or she could not sleep.  Also complaines of back pain in bed although we tried several mattresses.  Also, nutrician not ideal- Loves fats and sugars. Veggies, not so much.  God I'm glad I found this site. You all know what I'm talking about.

[heronbird]

 Hi! So glad you started this topic.
We are having so so much trouble with dd not sleeping, its got worse, she is sometimes awake all night, and then she is so upset about that in the morning. She is angry that the P wont give her more sleeping tablets, but they are addictive, when the P gave them to her in the past, she was allowed two weeks worth only, then what do you do after the two weeks? so she nags for more all the time and does not understand why she cant have one every night, I  managed to get 7 tablets from P but they have to last three weeks at least, I got half strength and told dd it was double strength haha, its good I can do this while I am in control and she is under 18.

But the real thing is how can we help them with this terrible problem.

Now she is scared to go to bed because she fears she wont sleep.
When she has been awake all night she is terrible in the morning, black eyes, doesnt know what shes saying, slurrs her speech, feels cold, and more dysregulated.

When she was little, shed fall asleep everywhere, I have a photo of her asleep in her cerial, she even fell asleep standing up once, I dont remember her dropping her daytime sleep early, just dont remember really.

[heronbird]

Sleep Dysregulation
Though trouble sleeping is not one of the diagnostic criteria for BPD many people with this disorder seem to struggle with sleep probs.
Sleep dysregulation is an understudied component of BPD despite its prevalence amoung people with BPD, either beginning in infancy, in childhood or as adults. Sleep problems range from sleeping during the day, being unable to sleep at night, not sleeping through the night difficulty regulating sleep-wake cycles such as not sleeping more than 2 hours at a time or just plain insomnia. Sleep deprovation can make anyone irratable and is even utilized as a method of torturing people. Add the problem of sleep deprovation to a highly reactive, highly sensitive individual and his entire system can become even more dysregulated.
How do you feel when you dont get enough sleep? Insomnia is a very aversive experience leading to rumination, anxiety, and a sense of isolation.
For many pwBPD, getting up in the morning is extreemly difficult.

Marsha Linehan would always make afternoon appointments  for her patients who are just starting DBT
After being in DBT for a little while they seem to be able to cope  some how and reset their body clocks.

Many parents describe their children as having sleep problems beginning in infancy.

This is from  Valerie Porrs book called Overcoming BPD.

The question is, how can we help.

[Battle Weary]

Sleep problems here too.  DD often claims she hasn't slept for three days.  How is this possible?  When she was in school often we'd drop her off and she'd immediately get on a bus and go back home to sleep.  She's tried melatonin, ambien, and says it doesn't work.  Convinced the pot smoking doesn't help--she smokes during the day as well as at night.  I can't believe I find myself telling her to just smoke at night, not during the day so she doesn't end up take hours-long naps and not being able to sleep at night. 

[mikmik]

Yes!  The question is how do we help!  I don't want to be "told" by docs that she needs to just go to sleep at a normal time, that she will feel better, etc.  Try telling someone who can't sleep cuz everything is too screwy to just sleep.  Or try fighting with a BPD to stay awake all day when they have been up all night.  Talk about flying into rages!  Sleeping pills scare me.  I wonder how addictive pwBPD are vs the rest of the population?  I don't know if melatonin is strong enough.  Don't think tea works (only on soap operas and movies), warm milk, no way.

I did see something on TV about foods that help you feel sleepier, like a certain kind of Cherry Juice (begins with a M), pumpkin powder, among other things.  They all seem like bandaids.  I have not gotten a good solid answer on how to fix the sleep issue from any professional.  I do know that good, regular sleep not only aides in maintaining a healthy weight (for those who have gained due to meds), it helps with mood and other triggers.  Sleep seems to be such a core issure to health in any person, but perhaps more in BPD?  Anyone have ideas on what has worked with your BPD to get them on a regular sleep cycle?

mikmik

[Battle Weary]

mikmik,
No suggestions, but my eyes glaze over as well when the professionals talk about instilling good sleep hygiene and list a bunch of things pwBPD find absolutely laughable or incomprehensible.  When I look at their list of suggestions to sleep better I really wonder what planet the people making them live on.

[heronbird]

Yes, last week dd was told to try to stay awake longer, that will help her sleep. Nothing works.
Melatonin no good she says. How about if I call melatonin, zopiclone, zopiclone is the sleeping tablet she has been given in past she likes that, but it is very addictive so its only ok for a short while.

How about relaxing music, I did think Id try that for her.

I feel so concerned for her about this, when I get up in the night at around 5 am and she still awake, so sad isnt it.

She wrote that canabis helps her sleep, I am so concerned about that, so is she going to get hooked on that. She insists to me that she doesnt take canabbis.

There must be some therapy that they can help her with. Im going to ask P today when I see her, again again ? ? ?
Isnt this the worse thing, you are supposed to be able to help your children arent you? its hard that I cant.

[mikmik]

Battle and Heron,

That is my fear, that these kids will become, or already are, desperate to somehow normalize.  I think because the docs don't understand the reason behind the sleep disorder factor of BPD, rather than taking on that challenge, they pass it off to us like they are passing the salt at the dinner table.

[mikmik]

Battle and Heron (hit the post button too quickly)

I wonder, if just the three of us, or if all who are reading this thread, would treat the T and P just as if we were consumers in any other market place.  Especially the P's.  We are paying for a service and to have part of "their" job passed onto us in not acceptable.  Let's hold them accountable as medical experts.  Telling us that we just need to get them to sleep on time is not an acceptable answer.   I think we can demand that they (in a nice way of course ) do more reasearch, contact other colleagues, read some journals, and come up with a solution or method that helps pwBPD.  Telling us to impose reasonable methods on unreasonable people does not work.   It is their job to serve these kids, to unravel this disorder, not just sit beind a desk and write out scripts.  What do you think?

mikmik

[heronbird]

Well, I went to see dds P today and told her again about the sleeping problem, she said that she was surprised that dd couldnt sleep because her meds are so strong and sheould make her tired at night.
However, she offered no soloution, I think she said she would talk to dds Psychologist, (she was the psychiritist)
I told her about this board, I mentioned this topic, she just asked me what everyone was saying.
Mikmik,
I was thinking of coppying and pasting your last post and send it to her via email haha.
But in reality, I dont think there is anything they can do.

She mentioned there is some funding available for my dd to join a gym or go horseriding, this could help. But we should of had this ages ago really.

[mikmik]

Heronbird,

Well, in a way I would not be at all reluctant to have them know about the board and what is said.  It could be a huge source of info for them, on a global basis...  Wonder if the moderators would allow them to join!  Maybe they are not cool enough  Ha.  But amazing how when you mentioned the board and pushed back onto the P, all of a sudden, funding for other outlets was brought up.  This is what I mean.  Asserting ourselves, demanding that they (docs, T, P, etc) serve our loved one, and taking them to task. Why wasn't the funding mentioned before?  I think they must become somewhat complacent, as do we all, and perhaps don't stretch their thinking unless provoked by someone who demands it.  Good for you Heron, and am sorry that the funding idea is a bit late.  Can you make any use of it at all?  Will see my dd18 P in about three weeks.  I will be asking for more investment in her care.

mikmik