When do I stand up for myself and when do I let it go?

[Think About It...]

I'm really not trying to be negative here and I want to learn as much as I can, but right now a lot of this does not make sense to me.

That's OK - it didn't make sense to most of us at first either

So let's take your example. We are sitting around the table eating dinner and my wife says "its a crappy world." and I respond with "yes, there is a lot of suffering in the world...".

How about instead something like "wow - it must be painful to see the world as crappy "

You don't validate facts (or "facts"); you validate emotions.

And you aren't lying ... you can see that it is painful to see the world as being crappy. That is painful.

How would you handle that? I give them the milk and my wife criticizes me and doesn't speak to me for the rest of the day.

I wouldn't let fear of her criticism stop you from doing what you think it right.

That said, another option might be "OK, we'll do water for now. I'll schedule an appointment with the pediatrician to talk about how much milk is healthy. What days are good for you?"

[Auspicious]

I'm really not trying to be negative here and I want to learn as much as I can, but right now a lot of this does not make sense to me.

That's OK - it didn't make sense to most of us at first either

So let's take your example. We are sitting around the table eating dinner and my wife says "its a crappy world." and I respond with "yes, there is a lot of suffering in the world...".

How about instead something like "wow - it must be painful to see the world as crappy "

You don't validate facts (or "facts"); you validate emotions.

And you aren't lying ... you can see that it is painful to see the world as being crappy. That is painful.

How would you handle that? I give them the milk and my wife criticizes me and doesn't speak to me for the rest of the day.

I wouldn't let fear of her criticism stop you from doing what you think it right.

That said, another option might be "OK, we'll do water for now. I'll schedule an appointment with the pediatrician to talk about how much milk is healthy. What days are good for you?"

[CodependentHusband]

JoeSchmoe,
    Very good questions and observations. I recognize that it is hard to see how you can apply these methods and be true to yourself. They seem diametrically opposed, and seemingly cannot coexist. You, like a lot of nons, are likely an eternal optimist. There is a joke that goes like this: "Pessimists say that the glass is half empty. Optimists say that the glass is half full. Engineers say that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be." You can't change your wife. You have the ability to look at the glass as half full AND see that it is twice the size that it needs to be. Your wife, on the other hand, can only see that it is half empty. Do the right thing in front of and for your kids, but not to spite your wife. You can't control her negativity, but you can control how you let it get to you.

... Now, if the half full glass has milk in it... Lol.     Try to ignore your wife's negativity. It is hard. I know it is.

[artman.1]

JoeSchmoe,
     I have been married to my UBPDW for 43 years, and found out in January 2011 that she is BPDW, and I am Codependent.  My first change for seeking sanity was to establist my first boundry.  I developed this in my own mind: I will not stay in the same location/House and allow myself to be abused in any way, including humiliations, Filthy Names, or any other type of abuse.  I never told her my boundry, instead, I just acted.  I discovered that actions speak much louder than words to a BPD.  The first time, I went upstairs to the computer room for a few hours.  The second time, she tried to follow me upstairs while raging, and I pushed around her, and left the house, going to 24 hour Fitness with my gym bag.  I came home six and a half hours later at 2:30AM saturday night.  she was in the family room, and said nothing as I went by her to bed.  The third time, I went to the computer room, and she left me alone.  The fourth time, she cought herself, and said to me, "If I say that, you will leave." and she did not rage, and has not really raged since then, and that was last spring.

Art

[CodependentHusband]

Firstly my older kids would say, "daddy, that is not what you teach us, why would you say that?" And I would totally agree. I can't lie to appease my wife's incorrect view of the world. They will see right through it.

Secondly I don't want to lie and pretend to be something I'm not or say something I don't mean. I don't want the kids to see me act one way with my wife and a different way with them. That is very confusing to them. They are young and impressionable.

Don't ever lie. If you can't validate something, anything about what your wife says, just don't respond to it. When doing what is right for the children (which, I agree, you MUST do), try not to do it in a way that makes your wife feel that she is being challenged. That's invalidating. You will have situations like you described where there is no way to do the right thing, AND not be invalidating to your wife. You can ease the blow by not saying anything about it, and simply doing it. Don't justify your actions to your wife. You don't need her approval, but you don't need to tell her that you don't need her approval.


The subject for this thread is, "When do I stand up for myself and when do I let it go?" In my opinion, the answer really is neither. In order to make things better with yoru r/s you don't stand up to anything, you just do it without seking her approval, without justifying your actions to her, and without feeling that you need to prove her wrong. Yes, you are human, so you may well feel that this would be compromising your integrity to the core. You CAN learn how to do this without giving up your integrity. It is VERY difficult to see that right now. I recognize that. Stay true to yourself and validate what you can... start small. You might try first to be less invalidating. Yes, it may go against the accepted logic of the 94% in this world that do not have BPD, but that IS the BPD's reality. Continuing to challenge her reality will get you more of the same. Acceptance is what it's all about. You don't have to agree with her. You don't have to embrace her reality, but accepting it will help you more than you can imagine.

[beyondbelief]

JoeS

There is no magic bullet you take today and beginning tomorrow everyone lives happily every after.  There is a lot of learning to do and it will take time.  You will need to discover things that help your situation and that means trial and error.  To complicate the situation your wife will likely sense something is different and react negatively at times.

You are really in a process of making things better it is not an event that happens.  I suggest picking one situation and work on that.  Often it helps to make it a small situation.  Once you get that down then move on to something else.  Over time each little piece may seem inconsequential but over time they can add up to huge changes.  

You will make plenty of mistakes along the way and you can minimize them by learning the tools here.  Here is a link about stopping senseless arguments.  I suggest you read it and pick a couple of the ideas to try out.  Then practice them when you can in real life situations.  She will likely change her behaviors sometimes for the good and others times for the worse.  So you have a solution for at least a piece of the problem.  Then expand from there.  It is often better to master a little than try a lot and master nothing.

How to stop circular arguments

We have a lot of resources here.  I picked this one to share because it is really possible to reduce arguments considerably in a relatively short time (certainly much shorter than the time you have spent arguing so far) and you can learn a lot of tools along the way.  How much better would your life be if even a little of the fighting went away?

I know I am repeating myself but once again Validation is a skill that takes most people a lot of practice to learn.  Boundaries are a much easier starting point.

[CodependentHusband]

Art,
     Good exmaple.

You are really in a process of making things better it is not an event that happens.  I suggest picking one situation and work on that.  

BB,
   So very true. It isn't an event, but, rather a process. However, JS, you will one day think, "I GET it! I see what they mean now! Now wonder it was hard to tell me how to get here... I'm not ever sure how I did get here." You see, you are going to figure out how to do this and you will find that you have a newfound peace, and you wife didn't have to do a thing! Hopefully you will find, like I did, that you still love your wife as much as I do mine. Your wife is sick. She isn't doing the things she is doing on purpose.

[artman.1]

Thank You, CH,
     I have another little addition here.  Since I have learned the problem in Jan.2011, I studied BPD traits, and books, and many resources for a year.  At the same time I was reading all I could find on Codependence.  The first of this year, I started going to CODA meetings.  CODA=Codependents Anonomous.  The group in CODA were reading Melody Beattie's "Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps," and started working on the 12 step program myself.  I no longer concentrate on her BPD except doing my best to use the communication styles, and boundry, which actually fit the 12 step guidelines.  Note: The first step: "We admitted we were powerless over others -- That our lives had become unmanageable."  Now, if you are confused, so was I.  Melody Beattie uses examples to illustrate these principles, and then spells them out simply.  The first part is all about acceptance of powerlessness to control, and the second part is all about Detachment with love.  If we are powerless to control, we then become detached with love, such that our SO can take responsibility for themselves rather than us saving them all the time.  That is all about my boundry, and the loving part is about my patience with her behaviors.  I must say, that without doing anything to inform her, or control her, my RS has significantly improved.  She has not yet allowed Intimacy, but I believe that will come.  As for now she has refused all intimacy for the last 35+ years.

Art

[JoeSchmoe]

Thanks to everyone who is contributing to this thread. I really appreciate the advice. It is really making me feel better about everything.

The think I understand the lesson being taught, and I will try to practice it more and more each day.

My wife does something that I have (to myself) dubbed the "hit and run". If she is angry at me for any reason, she will walk into a room that I am in and pretend to do something, like she has a reason for being there, then she will say something ugly and walk out. Or she'll say it on her way out the door. She does this so that I cannot respond. If I want to respond, I have to follow her out, then she accuses me of starting an argument. So I have learned to just ignore it. The things she would say used to hurt and that was her purpose. They don't anymore, but the really hard part is trying to be nice to her after she does that. If I ignore it, she will be nice to me again a little while later (almost like it didn't happen), but I have no desire to be nice back to her. She just took a shot at me and now doesn't understand why I'm not warming up to her like she wants me to at that moment. It takes me a while to get over it (longer than she expects) and she acts like I am being all cold towards her. Well, I am, but she doesn't understand why. And of course I don't explain it because that would just start her up all over again. So she often complains that I am cold and emotionless. I never used to be but have become that way simply due to this action of her's.

Should I continue to just ignore the hit and run? How do you warm up to a person after they do something like that?

[sadsamiam]

Thank You, CH,
     I have another little addition here.  Since I have learned the problem in Jan.2011, I studied BPD traits, and books, and many resources for a year.  At the same time I was reading all I could find on Codependence.  The first of this year, I started going to CODA meetings.  CODA=Codependents Anonomous.  The group in CODA were reading Melody Beattie's "Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps," and started working on the 12 step program myself.  I no longer concentrate on her BPD except doing my best to use the communication styles, and boundry, which actually fit the 12 step guidelines.  Note: The first step: "We admitted we were powerless over others -- That our lives had become unmanageable."  Now, if you are confused, so was I.  Melody Beattie uses examples to illustrate these principles, and then spells them out simply.  The first part is all about acceptance of powerlessness to control, and the second part is all about Detachment with love.  If we are powerless to control, we then become detached with love, such that our SO can take responsibility for themselves rather than us saving them all the time.  That is all about my boundry, and the loving part is about my patience with her behaviors.  I must say, that without doing anything to inform her, or control her, my RS has significantly improved.  She has not yet allowed Intimacy, but I believe that will come.  As for now she has refused all intimacy for the last 35+ years.

Art

Artman, I am very new to this forum (joined this morning).  I have always known my wife had some issues from her childhood (alcoholic/controlling father).  I have just come to realize that I believe she has BPD.

One of her issues is Intimacy.  She often rejects any forms of affection.  What I have found works at times is that I force her. I am not saying I rape her.  What I do is when lying in bed, I will reach over and hug her.  She will push my arm away, or move away, trying to show me to 'leave her alone'.  I will just put my arm back and hold it there firmly.  When she tries to push it away, I just hold it there.  She gets mad. My arm is on top of the covers. There is no real contact.  I will say, I am just going to hold you.  She will get angry and move to the farthest part of the bed.  Most times though, she won't leave the bed.  I will just keep my arm on top of her.  Then I try to start a conversation with her about a planned holiday, or the house or something that I hope won't trigger her to get angry.  

Eventually, after as much as 30 minutes, she seems to relax.  She will eventually put her hand on mine.  It seems like I have to force her, but eventually she takes the wall down.  We may or may not end up having sex.  This typically happens once every month or two.  When this happens she will talk about how great everything feels.  How great it is to be held.  How we should do it more often.

The next day, she may accept a hug or two.  But eventually, the following day or night, she gets cold again, rejecting all forms of affection. She will create an argument out of nothing, just to put space between us.  When reading about BPD, it really made sense to me in regards to her pulling me in and pushing me away, as she just won't let anyone get too close to her.

I have to tell you that 25 years of being rejected can really take its toll. Lately, I have not tried at all and when I do, it is getting very easy for me to just leave her alone when she rejects me.  As hard as it is, if I want to survive in this relationship, I have to push harder for affection.

[beyondbelief]

If she is angry at me for any reason, she will walk into a room that I am in, then she will say something ugly and walk out.

Should I continue to just ignore the hit and run?

I deliberately shortened your post to concentrate on ONE behavior at a time.  If you get this ONE down then you can move on to the other.

NO.  This is an example of an ineffective boundary.  She does something and you respond, either by ignoring her or "starting and argument".  Your responses are not being effective and that means if you want something to change you need to change what you do.

I don't know what your best response is.  You will need to try a few things and find out what works for you.  Many people may post lots of ideas, here is one:

"Wow, that is really bothering you.  Tell me more".  (This is an example of validation).  She will likely continue venting.  If it is tolerable then listen without defending or trying to change her.  If it gets to be too much say "That is really bothering you, I need to take a time out to process it all", then leave.  When things are calmer you can discuss things (or not).

[CodependentHusband]

Should I continue to just ignore the hit and run? How do you warm up to a person after they do something like that?

Good question, and a behavior that all of us nons can relate to, I am sure. Ignoring it is one effective way of dealing with it in how you relate to her. I can relate to your pain in realizing that you have become numb to these quick jabs over the years. It is sad that it comes to this. You are geeting good advice from others on how to work through this frequent behavior. I would only add that since you have already detached to the point that it no longer has you chasing after her to defend yourself (which, as you observed, just makes it worse), that you try to find a way to see this mean behavior as a symptom of her illness. She is processing some feeling she has in an unhealthy manner and this is how it is exhibiting itself in a dysfunctional way. Two things:

1. To support her: If you can find out what the underlying http://[i]feeling/emotion[/i] she has that is causing this specific incident (fear, no control, jealousy, resentment, etc), you might try to talk to her about it later, when she is calm and you both have time.

2. To support yourself: I compartmentalize my dBPDw's negative behaviours from the person she is. Reminding myself just how sick she REALLY is has helped me to deal with this kind of incidence.

I think that you will find that if you don't allow yourself to get drawn in when she does this, you will be able to be warm to her later because you won't resent her. To give you an analogy, think of her "hit and run" as her literally handing you a ticket to ride on an emotional rollercoaster. Don't take the bait. She is miserable at that moment and she wants you to join her because it is too painful for her to face alone. Fact is, she is going to be miserable for a little while (sometimes days, granted), but you don't have to join her.

[CodependentHusband]

One of her issues is Intimacy.  She often rejects any forms of affection.  What I have found works at times is that I force her. I am not saying I rape her.  What I do is when lying in bed, I will reach over and hug her.  She will push my arm away, or move away, trying to show me to 'leave her alone'.  I will just put my arm back and hold it there firmly.  When she tries to push it away, I just hold it there.  She gets mad. My arm is on top of the covers. There is no real contact.  I will say, I am just going to hold you.  She will get angry and move to the farthest part of the bed.  Most times though, she won't leave the bed.  I will just keep my arm on top of her.  Then I try to start a conversation with her about a planned holiday, or the house or something that I hope won't trigger her to get angry.  

Eventually, after as much as 30 minutes, she seems to relax.  She will eventually put her hand on mine.  It seems like I have to force her, but eventually she takes the wall down.  We may or may not end up having sex.  This typically happens once every month or two.  When this happens she will talk about how great everything feels.  How great it is to be held.  How we should do it more often.

The next day, she may accept a hug or two.  But eventually, the following day or night, she gets cold again, rejecting all forms of affection. She will create an argument out of nothing, just to put space between us.  When reading about BPD, it really made sense to me in regards to her pulling me in and pushing me away, as she just won't let anyone get too close to her.

I have to tell you that 25 years of being rejected can really take its toll. Lately, I have not tried at all and when I do, it is getting very easy for me to just leave her alone when she rejects me.  As hard as it is, if I want to survive in this relationship, I have to push harder for affection.

sadsamiam,
     Intimacy issues are pretty common, and many of us nons have had our challenges around that issue. In order to ensure that you get a direct response on this topic, I recommend that you start a new thread. More people on the Staying board will read it in a shorter thread and can provide you with some constructive advice.

[mrnacho1]

I find the behavior of my wife to be very abusive and I think it is inherently wrong. So when she criticizes me do I defend myself? Do I just let it go? Up to now I have just let it go to keep peace in the house, unless it is really grievous. But that seems to have emboldened her and made things worse. She sees me as passive and hates it. Yet she can't stand when I stand up for myself and say that I won't take her abuse anymore. The more I stand up for myself the hard she fights to keep me down.

I don't know where to draw the line.