What to do with tax refund?

[Think About It...]

Taxes are done, yay!  Found out getting a decent return.  Question is what to do with it, especially to those of you relatively familiar with my situation.  My inclination is to use it to pay down debts (medical school loans, etc)  H is not working and the only true bill he pays is his car payment ($350/month).  He is getting unemployment in approximately the amount of his salary.  He feels entitled to half, tells me every year.  I have never given it because I feel like I carry 95% of our finances.   I thought about figuring out what percentage of the taxes that we paid were paid by him and giving him that percentage of the return.  Opinions?

[nowheretogo]

Taxes are done, yay!  Found out getting a decent return.  Question is what to do with it, especially to those of you relatively familiar with my situation.  My inclination is to use it to pay down debts (medical school loans, etc)  H is not working and the only true bill he pays is his car payment ($350/month).  He is getting unemployment in approximately the amount of his salary.  He feels entitled to half, tells me every year.  I have never given it because I feel like I carry 95% of our finances.   I thought about figuring out what percentage of the taxes that we paid were paid by him and giving him that percentage of the return.  Opinions?

[JustSaying]

My inclination is to use it to pay down debts (medical school loans, etc)

100% yes.

[Steph]

Taxes are done, yay!  Found out getting a decent return.  Question is what to do with it, especially to those of you relatively familiar with my situation.  My inclination is to use it to pay down debts (medical school loans, etc)  H is not working and the only true bill he pays is his car payment ($350/month).  He is getting unemployment in approximately the amount of his salary.  He feels entitled to half, tells me every year.  I have never given it because I feel like I carry 95% of our finances.   I thought about figuring out what percentage of the taxes that we paid were paid by him and giving him that percentage of the return.  Opinions?

The year we were separated, my H figured out how much was mine and how much was his...and he deposited that into my account, without my consent. It seemed fair, even tho I didnt like him just doing that. I did learn, tho, that I was legally entitled to half of it...

[Auspicious]

I think it depends a lot on your situation. I took complete financial control when my wife was basically bonkers ... as things have improved somewhat, we've gone back more to a somewhat (but by no means completely) shared situation.

Paying down any joint/shared debts seems pretty safe (though as always, seek legal advice if you need it - we can't give any here).

[nowheretogo]

All debts are in my name...house, truck, camper, student loans, etc.
The only debt he has is his car.  I don't know.  And if I ask a lawyer they'll probably not be very clear either.  If I tell him what I plan to do with it and he agrees to that, then that should probably be ok, would you think?

[Auspicious]

And if I ask a lawyer they'll probably not be very clear either. 

What makes you think that?

I would trust a lawyer's opinion over an agreement with a mentally unstable person any day, frankly.

[catnap]

If he does not agree to pay off debt, what about starting or adding to an educational fund for your children? 

[yeeter]

Hi nowhere

A difficult question to ask other people what to do with your money.  Even harder is to ask others how you, as a couple, should handle finances

In my situation I work and have the outside income, but my wife controls ALL finances. I am patiently waiting for the right time to change this dynamic, and for me at least a change will mean a discussion including her. 

If we cannot agree, then we each can make individual decisions.

Lots of couples have conflict over finances.

If you do decide to take a path that he doesn't agree with, maybe give visibility to your goals, and then where the money is at towards these goals.  This way will help with the trust ( don't be secretive about it )

Otoh - some people are very secretive about their money.

[o2bz14u]

You are asking for "opinions" but you are bound by the laws of your state (or country). I haven't followed your story, but even if you are not residing with your H you may have to treat your finances exactly the same as if you were, if you have not filed for divorce proceedings. Do you know if you live in a community property state? There are many things that guide distribution of wealth in a marriage. If you do not have the money for an attorney you can find many of the answers to your questions on the .gov sites. Even if you do decide to use an attorney, going in armed with knowledge, (and the necessary paperwork and documents) can expidiate the appointment, saving oodles of money on attorney fees.

[nowheretogo]

I think the question has been answered for me.  I just realized that the balance of a loan I took from my small private radiology company when I signed on is now due because the contract is ending.  The balance is over $23K.  I can just barely afford to pay it, and the tax money will definitely help.  Since H was a big pusher of taking this loan (originally $50K...on my own, I probably would have borrowed about $20K), I am going to explain this situation to him and ask if he has any problem with me including the return as part of this payoff.  Seems pretty reasonable to me...

[JustSaying]

Since you say you'll ask him, what happens if his answer is 'no'?

[nowheretogo]

I told him that I picked up the return and we were getting a refund.  He replied, oh good, now we can get xyz (can't remember which of a million things he wants that he said).  I said, I was thinking we should use it to help pay of the $24K.  He said "I knew you would say that."  But didn't argue.  He actually offered to take his approx. $10K retirement fund out to help pay it, but would be taxed, so I won't allow it.  As far as I know, he has no other savings either, and I'm not trying to sabotage him.  He did also comment on the refund was all his because he claimed no dependents on his W4.  I told him that the accountant did run the taxes separately, and that yes, he wouldn't gotten a small refund while I would have had to make a sizable payment.  He seemed as though he would have been ok with this.  Ii stressed that by filing jointly, we got a refund rather than a net loss as a family unit had we filed separately. 

He was still annoying me last night about his newest obsession:  trying to start his own landscaping business for which he claims he needs an EZ-dumper (kind of trailer for hauling/dumping), showing me ones like he would need, in the approx. $6K price range.  I was actually going to help get him one that was around $2K, but 6 seems like a lot given everything else right now.  He is advocating "payment plans" so that I don't have to make a large payment and so that he doesn't have to try to pay off the cost of the thing this summer.  I was originally told that the cost of one of these was around $4K and that he could make that in just a couple of jobs.  The 2K one turned out to be "not good enough".  Again, in his behalf, he did say there was no pressure, it's just something he's thinking about doing, an idea.  I said I am not ready to take on any new debt, and I am not sure how quickly I can come up with 6K.

I am so tired.

[LoveNotWar]

It sounds like finances and being in debt is a big worry for you.

This is a judgement on my part, but a grown man ( or a grown woman for that matter) who wants to start a business gets a job...any kind of job...even a second job...to save enough money to start that business. Or, like a student loan for college, goes to a lending institution and borrows money that they take responsibility for paying back.

My other thought is if you really want to help him ask yourself if it's going to hurt you or cause you hardship before you buy that dumper thing.

[JustSaying]

nowhere, you know I agree with LoveNotWar, right? I've started multiple businesses. You don't start one by borrowing from your spouse without a plan and experience. This isn't his first "give me money to start a business" request, iir. Other business ideas, other sums of money.

You have an accountant. Ask him/her the wisdom of extending yourself further. Ask him/her the efficacy of H's business plan. Oh, he doesn't yet have a business plan, cash flow projections, etc? Hmmmmm.

You realize that any investment in a business is more properly called the first investment, right? There will inevitably be need for further inflows of cash under the threat that without them the business will not succeed and the initial investment will be lost. You've seen this with your own practice, I expect.

[buterfly]

I have a tendency to hoard money when it comes in, thinking that I will need it someday, but it obviously depends on your situation.

Although my BP and I have separate bank accounts we file taxes together.  I am supposed to get a refund as I work a full time job with taxes taken out every month.  He is a part-time independent contractor so he pays back at the end of the year.  This year he didn't make enough to save for tax time (he usually does), so I wiped out my savings paying back his taxes.  It didn't really bother me as I know this marriage is a partnership and if he needs the help this year I am glad I could provide it.

Of course because of his BPD he made me feel guilty for not helping him out in the past, and said numerous times he didn't want my help, and even after I helped him he told me that I would throw it back in his face later (obviously projecting what he would do to me onto me), but in the end I know I made the right decision for helping us both out. 

[nowheretogo]

JS, keep it coming at me, because I need to hear it!  Apparently, he has "dumped" the dumper idea for the time being anyway.  We did order the outdoor playset for the kids, which he agreed to put together.  He of course said, "I find it funny that you have $2k for the swingset but not for the dumper."  I said "It's not 2K (it's $1300), and I was going to spend $2K on a dumper, but not 6K."  Then he told me "I"m done, drop it."  So I did.  He is renting a tractor to dig down our yard and pull out stumps tomorrow.  He will be doing this with the neighbor.  Can't do anything on his own it seems.

I saw an ad for a job as a home inspector, that includes training.  Says PT makes $30K and FT makes $75K.  I thought this might be a reasonable possible job for H, who doesn't like to be accountable to others in charge.  If anyone has any input on this by experience or anything, I would appreciate it.  However, I know he will be pissed off that I am even suggesting that he get a job when I know that he wants to start his own business, etc.  But I like the idea of saying that it doesn't have to be for forever, but to help get some $$ to use towards starting a business.

rebeldee,  I hear what you're saying about the projection.  MY H does it too.  "I don't want any of your money.  You've made it clear that the house and everything in it is yours.  (he is the one that always says this, not me)  You never support me."   Recently I was told that he is just very said that I am the way I am (non-supportive, not willing to give him everything he asks for...in his words selfish and greedy).  I could go on and on.  I never know what to do, because no matter what I decide, it's WRONG.

On a tangent, I have now been accused of doing nothing but playing with the kids all day.  I said Really?  He replied, "Yeah, your job is real demanding!"  (I am a radiologist).  Talk about hurtful.  I know I am not to take this personally...so I am trying not to.

[nowheretogo]

Also rebeldee, I am a saver as well.  Thank God, because how else would I pay of this $24k loan balance...but H is all about instant gratification, no worries about retirement, etc.

[buterfly]

Are you married to my husband? j/k it's amazing how the things that our BPD's say are so similar.  It validates what we are going through, and we need that validation too!

 I feel like I hear the same things, "I don't want any of your money," My husband took a loan from his parents without even telling me. Of course the house and everything in it is his, not mine. and I never 'support' him either. Of course I am also selfish and greedy. My favorite is "Yeah, your job is real demanding!"  I'd imagine being a radiologist is very demanding!  I am an elementary teacher!  Trust me it's demanding. 

Anyway, I understand you asking this question and maybe that's why I hoard my money because I am afraid that he will eventually tell me that I am doing the WRONG thing with it.  It's hard to tell what the right thing is so I just don't do anything    All I can say is stand your ground, because in the end what ever you decide will be RIGHT!

[nowheretogo]

, I think I am married to your H, rebeldee!  At least I know my job is more demanding than his (unemployed).

Another favorite of mine is something about a secret savings account that I have.  And when I denied, the accusation that I am a liar.  I mean, this must be projection.  He does indeed know of all my accounts, and I have never hid my money, which he has accused me of several times. 

I have often wondered why the same salary via unemployment doesn't stay in  his account when his only monthly bill is a $350 car payment.  He buys his alcohol and chew and puts gas in his truck and does  buy occasional groceries, for a grand additional total of probably another $500 or $600 a month.  Where is the other $500 or so going?  Of course, he may just be that bad with money that he makes enough small expenditures to take care of it.

[KateCat]

nowheretogo,

Time is not really on your side in this tough situation. If, in a few years' time you and your husband are before a judge dividing your finances, and if your husband can show that he has been no-income or low-income for an extended period of time, he'll be in a good position to be awarded significant spousal support. I think anything you can do to demonstrate an expectation that he contribute to the family finances now is a good thing.

[nowheretogo]

Thanks, KateCat, for thinking like my H.  I can't help but think that he is purposefully doing this for legal reasons.  So why do I keep letting him do it?  I was told if we're married less than two years, he won't get alimony, etc.  So I filed before two years.  But he has been so uncooperative, that we are "trying to make it work" because I couldn't stand the alternative.  I know he hasn't forced my hand, but it feels like it.  We've now been married for two years and 4 months and time is ticking.

[KateCat]

Ha, ha, I can easily think like your H! At bottom, he knows all good things in his life flow from you. I suspect he also thinks that if you knew the unspoken truth(s) about him, you'd reject him and all the good things would go away.

It's a little harder for me to think like a healthy person, but I think that looks like the suggestions JustSaying has been making. Clear expectations that your husband find work. If a field interests him, secure a job as an employee in that field in order to "test drive it." A class or two at the local community college in the business department might also steer him toward a good business plan. And then the loan . . . from someone other than you.

I think you need to set a boundary now. Some kind of employment, secured on his own, or the divorce is on. He will have to act, because he does not want a divorce at this time. He needs a few more years to solidify his identity as a stay-at-home dad with low income. I think he'll actually respect you more if you don't give it to him.

ADDED: At two years you still have a short-term marriage. Spousal support awarded now would be short-term and aimed at getting him back in the job market.

[nowheretogo]

I like all of the suggestions from JustSaying and yourself.  It is just so difficult for me to voice my opinions, thoughts, feelings, or really anything to H for the quickness and fiercenss of counterattack and then the refusal to listen.  ie, I filed for divorce.  He basically told me NO, like he does with all of my other requests or suggestions.  This is where I need to work on myself.  Getting my voice out and then sticking to what I said.  I am so open to suggestions!

[yeeter]

Hi Nowhere,

Im a little unclear on your situation - its my understanding that you filed for divorce, but are not divorcing?  Or its on hold? 

I ask because I was in this mode - I had filed and we were living together for over 4 months.  Very stressful.  And my wife was adamant that she would not participate in any way that enabled it to happen.  But at the end of the day, she cant necessarily stop it (but she can drag it out and make it difficult, that is for sure).  If you arent strong in your conviction to divorce, its easy to give in and not go forward.

At the last minute I aborted the divorce to take another attempt with the marriage.  For me it was an either/or thing... either all the way in, or all the way out.  'Half in' wasnt working (this was somewhat my feelings leading up to filing.

So if you are half in, this would make every interaction defensive positioning on his part.  Of course he has to protect himself.  And of course you have to protect yourself.  In my wifes case (as I would bet is the case with most BPD), what was 'fair' protection of her was never really within balance (that is, it was always heavily biased in her favor, or else she 'felt' it wasnt fair).  This is another place feelings = reality in her mind.

In my case I make all the money and have zero visibility/control of it.  Its always been my philosophy towards relationships (we are in it together and whoever is able, pays) - UNTIL now.  Now I realize that although this works great with rational partners, it doesnt work with BPD's.  So my advice is to KEEP YOU MONEY SEPARATE.  Especially given you are in the middle of a divorce? (at least kinda).  Make your own decisions on your money, and spend it in the manner that makes sense for you.  Ultimately he will have to go find work anyway (if divorced), unless he ends up landing enough child support (as the stay at home parent) that he doesnt have to work (flip the genders and see how your state makes award claims - it can be pretty frightening).

In fact, you might ask some of these questions over on the legal boards...

 

[nowheretogo]

Yeeter,

Don't worry, I'm confused too....

Yes, I filed.  Before the first 24 hours after being served were up, he was begging to try again.  After a month or more, we had a huge fight, and I decided to commit to trying to make it work, but not to withdrawing the papers.  So the divorce is unofficially on hold.  I am not calling the attorney or moving forward at this point.

He stays at home because he lost his job at the end of August.  I was ready to file then, but put it off yet again because of this and finally did just before Thanksgiving.  He "asked" to be the stay at home dad, but I argued that the kids need to keep their routines and be around other kids, have scheduled days, etc, and that he has no patience with kids (he doesn't).  He was highly offended and angry, but continues to take D1 to daycare each morning and pick both D1 and S6 up from daycare each day.  I take S6 to daycare in the mornings on my way to work.  Until D1 was about 18 mos of age, I always took her in the mornings, too.  I always got up with her every night until like 15 months.  Miraculously, shortly after H lost his job, she started sleeping like 12 hours, and so he gets to sleep in with her every morning and then take her to daycare around 9 or 9:30.  I would not call him a stay at home dad.  And I don't NEED him to do any of this.  I could still get D1 up and take her in myself.  I COULD pick them up as well.  I COULD  hire a nanny or other caretaker to help with meals, etc, after work.  He claims to cook dinner every night.  Several nights he really doesn't.  Or he puts a frozen pizza in the oven or heats up a frozen dinner.  So what.  He cleans.  But not that much.  I could hire a housekeeper.  Actually, I can keep up with most of the house work on my own.  He only started doing laundry a few months ago, and still leaves most of it for me to put away.  He is not really looking for a job.  He wants to ride out his unemployment for as long as possible and to start his own business with my money (and boy does he get mad when I say "with my money!").   
He would have to get 50.50 custody to get child support.  Maybe he would get it.  My attorney told me no.  D1 is so young, she has a brother at home with me, he drinks a lot of alcohol, etc...but he is adamant that he will have 50/50.  Although the way he plans to get it is to force me to agree or else he will go for all my money.  Fine, he will have to go for all my money.  I don't think he is a good environment for D1.  He loves her and wouldn't ever physically hurt her, but emotionally he is so unstable and immature and that will only transfer to her.

[KateCat]

I would not call him a stay at home dad. 

But that's what he will likely be called in a divorce. Yeeter's suggestion to check out the frustrations of divorcing primary-wage-earners (mostly men) on the "Divorcing" boards is a good one.

[Auspicious]

Although the way he plans to get it is to force me to agree or else he will go for all my money.  Fine, he will have to go for all my money.  

I think it's important to check your fears and opinions with a lawyer ... how exactly would he "go for all your money"?

I don't think he is a good environment for D1.  He loves her and wouldn't ever physically hurt her, but emotionally he is so unstable and immature and that will only transfer to her.

Check your fears and opinions both ways, though. It's important to get a realistic, balanced picture.

Proving in court that he would be a bad parent for D1 can be quite difficult, without 1. objective evidence that 2. the court will consider.


Check with a lawyer about your beliefs and fears before making decisions based on them, even passive decisions!

[catnap]

I thought not too long ago you gave him money to get his PI license and now he is talking doing lawn care and wanting a $6k dumper? 

I am with JS, he needs a business plan and to find a business loan that he can get under his own name.  Otherwise, if the PI or the lawn care does not work out, you will ultimately be blamed and out money. 

No, I do not think he really qualifies as a stay at home Dad.  The kids are in daycare, not a day or two for a few hours, but all week.  So you pay for that, while he stays doing very little and keeps all of his unemployment, of which little to none directly benefits the family as a whole. 

KateCat has a good point, set a boundary that he gets a job or secures financing on his own for a business.  He has had ample time since August.  He is all over the place on his own business, which I suspect is all talk and no action.  He will always need something else from you to make a go of things. 
 

[yeeter]

I thought not too long ago you gave him money to get his PI license and now he is talking doing lawn care and wanting a $6k dumper? 

I am with JS, he needs a business plan and to find a business loan that he can get under his own name.  Otherwise, if the PI or the lawn care does not work out, you will ultimately be blamed and out money. 

No, I do not think he really qualifies as a stay at home Dad.  The kids are in daycare, not a day or two for a few hours, but all week.  So you pay for that, while he stays doing very little and keeps all of his unemployment, of which little to none directly benefits the family as a whole. 

KateCat has a good point, set a boundary that he gets a job or secures financing on his own for a business.  He has had ample time since August.  He is all over the place on his own business, which I suspect is all talk and no action.  He will always need something else from you to make a go of things. 
 

I agree on the business plan.  (we have a saying for early monies raised by the 3 F's:  Friends, Family, and Fools...)

My kids are all in school or preschool.  I work.  My wife does not.  This makes her a stay at home mom - focused on raising the kids instead of working.  Doesnt matter how many hours she does, or does not put into it.  Yes the courts have gender bias so you may get a break, but dont assume just because he has free time during the day that this will be seen as something other than stay at home dad.

Yes seek legal advice on this - every state is different, and rarely does everyone feel the courts are 'fair'. (also seek advice on PASSIVE agreements! )

[KateCat]

No, I do not think he really qualifies as a stay at home Dad.  The kids are in daycare, not a day or two for a few hours, but all week.  So you pay for that, while he stays doing very little and keeps all of his unemployment, of which little to none directly benefits the family as a whole.

This is where I wonder if things get more worrisome. (Those craigslist ads you stumbled on.) How can a woman be sure of protecting her health if her husband has a lot of free time, his own money, and is secretly fighting some aspects of his sexuality?

[doryswimsagain]

Hey nowhere...bear with me...I may be stepping my toe into the wrong pond on this board

BUT...here is my question for you: IF you do NOT end up staying, would you go for primary custody? If so, then I think you need to be very careful to document these behaviors along the way. Difficult to do, I know, when you are trying to wear an honest "staying cap" but necessary all the same.

I believe he would in fact be viewed as a stay at home Dad. Being that you make 100% of the income, I can tell you that his child support and awarded proprty (if you are in a 50/50 state) would be quite handsome.