Can BPD's be stable with some partners?

[Think About It...]

I was talking to my T on Thursday.  She was saying that it seemed like I tolerate alot of people because I'm a nurse.  And have been in nursing since I was 16.  But that I don't seem to know how to turn off the tolerance when I leave work.  I have to agree.  

From my perspective, our issue(s) isn't our "tolerance."  I grew up with personality disordered parents and extended family members, it wasn't that I was tolerance of their dysfunctional behavior, it felt familiar to me and so I gravitated to it.  Having that kind of a background just also allows you to put up with more drama (i.e., other people's drama) than other people and also instills in you a deep motivation to "fix" people (i.e., "fix" mom and/or dad in order to "prove"/"secure" love).  I don't know if you have such a background, but being able to keep your head during a crisis and wanting to fix people would give you a good impetus to be a nurse.

And intellectually, I will tell you that I don't want this stuff in my personal life.  I like my life calm, structured (if possible with 2 teenagers), and want to regroup in a quiet home each evening.  But what I seem to allow, is an entirely different story.  

I believe I thought that way for a big chunk of my life; i.e., what I thought I wanted and what I got, in terms of interpersonal relationships, seemed to be way off.  In my case, I had to come to a realization: I kept getting what I wanted.  It's just that I didn't accept what I really wanted; that is I was in denial of what I was consistently seeking.  An innocuous analogy is the person who wants to lose weight but doesn't realize he is confusing comfort food for love; "I want to lose weight but I keep losing control."  Until he finds a way to love himself that does not involve food, he will fail because to deny himself food feels like he is denying himself love.

In my case, I wanted love.  I thought I wanted a respecting, considerate partner to love me.  I kept finding... nay, seeking out... personality disordered people.  I kept using "chemistry" as a basis for determining who I wanted to start relationships with.  In retrospect, I was using "familiarity" as the basis for selecting partners, and considering what I was familiar with, I kept selecting partners that would make me miserable.  What was "familiar" felt more like love than another person's healthy definition of love.  It was my choice.  It was an unconscious choice.  But it was my way of putting the same lesson in front of me, until I learned what I needed to learn.

I can also say, that all those other people who were not personality disordered, that I did not choose to date, they scared the beejebus out of me.  Because they were not familiar to me.  But also because I was deathly afraid of rejection (and did not realize it).  I kept selecting people who were in no position to reject me; i.e., people who were messes.  Because if those basket cases rejected me, then it was not because I was not worth dating, it was because they were idiots.  But if a whole and intact person rejected me, then that meant I was not worth dating.  Another way of looking at it is, if I kept trying to help or "fix" those I was interested in dating, and they rejected me, then they were idiots because they refused what I could do for them; they wouldn't be refusing *me*.  But if there came an opportunity to date someone who didn't seem to need helping or fixing, I would rationalize why it wouldn't work out and chicken out because in this scenario, if they didn't want to date me, they would be rejecting *me* and not what I had to offer them.

Buried in what we "allow" in our lives, is the truth of what we want for ourselves.  And the trick is to understand what we want, especially if it's something painful we need to accept and "fix" in ourselves.  No one can fix us.  We can't fix anyone... except ourselves.

After talking with my T, I decided that I needed some alone time and to stop dating while I think about and change whatever behaviors I have that are attracting these men.

That is a great plan of action.  I would suggest, go find five or six things that make you happy, that don't involve dating other people.  Happiness is a great talisman against mental illness.  Feigned happiness, is another deal.  Don't just try to look happy... be happy.  And if you find that you cannot, then find out why.  Nothing is more attractive to other people, to healthy people, than happiness.

I was dating someone on and off for a few months.  I got rid of him Thursday after I left my T.  His behaviors had been bothering me since I met him.  His stories didn't make sense, employment sounded spotty, and I had no trust because I caught him in lies.  He also seems to have an anger problem and I was tired of rotten emails from him if I confronted him with even the basic of questions that he saw as challenging him.  I just cut him off at the knees on Thursday with one of his emails, blocked him on FB so he can't send anymore emails, and I'll avoid his phone calls.  He's probably still in shock over what happened.  I don't care.  He wrote to my sister that I'm mad at him again so she'd better unfriend him on FB.  I'm not mad, I'm just done.  And I don't care.  

It's fine that you don't care.  You are not obligated to care.  When you are dating you are obligated to looking for a partner that can add to your happiness.  A partner whom you feel you can add to theirs.  You cannot add from a deficit.  You owe them no more than any commitment to make to them.  But be careful with whom and how you make commitments.  Sometimes you might make a commitment without realizing you have; and don't let them make commitments for you.

A sure sign that the person you are dating is not good for you is when you find that he or she is motivating you to accommodate them via feelings of fear, obligation or guilt (i.e., F.O.G.).  Stay away from those.

But Lucky Strikes--  It's true that I also seem to attract these people.  Because of something I do or tolerate.  I need to focus on that and change it.  

I would say that one of the easiest ways to "attract" personality disordered people, is to be available and vulnerable to their ways.  If you did not put up with their F.O.G. or you did not tolerate their tendency towards drama, they might prefer someone who is more susceptible and/or willing.  When people don't choose you, it is not necessarily only reflect upon you (i.e., I am not desirable, I am not worthy) but rather them selecting what works for them (i.e., someone with whom they can dysfunctionally enmesh).

...And also my ex removed a foster child from their home after 2 yrs, for some crazy teenage issue.  The wife and the teenager were very close, and he ripped her away when she had a teenage screw up and returned her to foster care.  They had been talking about adopting her, looking at colleges, teaching her to drive.  I think he became jealous over the bond between the wife and the girl and got rid of her at first chance.

Bingo, the minute the wife became attached to the foster child, the foster child was seems as a source of competition for her attention, of which he would only tolerate a monopoly.

So yes, his wife sold her soul to keep peace with him.  There's other stories that seem odd to.  So I need to change my view of what I consider to be "stable".  And at who's expense?  His wife is now dead from Lung Cancer.  Never smoked a day in her life.  Who knows what causes cancer?  Maybe swallowing your anger and dreams.

Certainly that kind of unhappiness doesn't not help when fighting disease.

Best wishes, Schwing

[schwing]

I was talking to my T on Thursday.  She was saying that it seemed like I tolerate alot of people because I'm a nurse.  And have been in nursing since I was 16.  But that I don't seem to know how to turn off the tolerance when I leave work.  I have to agree.  

From my perspective, our issue(s) isn't our "tolerance."  I grew up with personality disordered parents and extended family members, it wasn't that I was tolerance of their dysfunctional behavior, it felt familiar to me and so I gravitated to it.  Having that kind of a background just also allows you to put up with more drama (i.e., other people's drama) than other people and also instills in you a deep motivation to "fix" people (i.e., "fix" mom and/or dad in order to "prove"/"secure" love).  I don't know if you have such a background, but being able to keep your head during a crisis and wanting to fix people would give you a good impetus to be a nurse.

And intellectually, I will tell you that I don't want this stuff in my personal life.  I like my life calm, structured (if possible with 2 teenagers), and want to regroup in a quiet home each evening.  But what I seem to allow, is an entirely different story.  

I believe I thought that way for a big chunk of my life; i.e., what I thought I wanted and what I got, in terms of interpersonal relationships, seemed to be way off.  In my case, I had to come to a realization: I kept getting what I wanted.  It's just that I didn't accept what I really wanted; that is I was in denial of what I was consistently seeking.  An innocuous analogy is the person who wants to lose weight but doesn't realize he is confusing comfort food for love; "I want to lose weight but I keep losing control."  Until he finds a way to love himself that does not involve food, he will fail because to deny himself food feels like he is denying himself love.

In my case, I wanted love.  I thought I wanted a respecting, considerate partner to love me.  I kept finding... nay, seeking out... personality disordered people.  I kept using "chemistry" as a basis for determining who I wanted to start relationships with.  In retrospect, I was using "familiarity" as the basis for selecting partners, and considering what I was familiar with, I kept selecting partners that would make me miserable.  What was "familiar" felt more like love than another person's healthy definition of love.  It was my choice.  It was an unconscious choice.  But it was my way of putting the same lesson in front of me, until I learned what I needed to learn.

I can also say, that all those other people who were not personality disordered, that I did not choose to date, they scared the beejebus out of me.  Because they were not familiar to me.  But also because I was deathly afraid of rejection (and did not realize it).  I kept selecting people who were in no position to reject me; i.e., people who were messes.  Because if those basket cases rejected me, then it was not because I was not worth dating, it was because they were idiots.  But if a whole and intact person rejected me, then that meant I was not worth dating.  Another way of looking at it is, if I kept trying to help or "fix" those I was interested in dating, and they rejected me, then they were idiots because they refused what I could do for them; they wouldn't be refusing *me*.  But if there came an opportunity to date someone who didn't seem to need helping or fixing, I would rationalize why it wouldn't work out and chicken out because in this scenario, if they didn't want to date me, they would be rejecting *me* and not what I had to offer them.

Buried in what we "allow" in our lives, is the truth of what we want for ourselves.  And the trick is to understand what we want, especially if it's something painful we need to accept and "fix" in ourselves.  No one can fix us.  We can't fix anyone... except ourselves.

After talking with my T, I decided that I needed some alone time and to stop dating while I think about and change whatever behaviors I have that are attracting these men.

That is a great plan of action.  I would suggest, go find five or six things that make you happy, that don't involve dating other people.  Happiness is a great talisman against mental illness.  Feigned happiness, is another deal.  Don't just try to look happy... be happy.  And if you find that you cannot, then find out why.  Nothing is more attractive to other people, to healthy people, than happiness.

I was dating someone on and off for a few months.  I got rid of him Thursday after I left my T.  His behaviors had been bothering me since I met him.  His stories didn't make sense, employment sounded spotty, and I had no trust because I caught him in lies.  He also seems to have an anger problem and I was tired of rotten emails from him if I confronted him with even the basic of questions that he saw as challenging him.  I just cut him off at the knees on Thursday with one of his emails, blocked him on FB so he can't send anymore emails, and I'll avoid his phone calls.  He's probably still in shock over what happened.  I don't care.  He wrote to my sister that I'm mad at him again so she'd better unfriend him on FB.  I'm not mad, I'm just done.  And I don't care.  

It's fine that you don't care.  You are not obligated to care.  When you are dating you are obligated to looking for a partner that can add to your happiness.  A partner whom you feel you can add to theirs.  You cannot add from a deficit.  You owe them no more than any commitment to make to them.  But be careful with whom and how you make commitments.  Sometimes you might make a commitment without realizing you have; and don't let them make commitments for you.

A sure sign that the person you are dating is not good for you is when you find that he or she is motivating you to accommodate them via feelings of fear, obligation or guilt (i.e., F.O.G.).  Stay away from those.

But Lucky Strikes--  It's true that I also seem to attract these people.  Because of something I do or tolerate.  I need to focus on that and change it.  

I would say that one of the easiest ways to "attract" personality disordered people, is to be available and vulnerable to their ways.  If you did not put up with their F.O.G. or you did not tolerate their tendency towards drama, they might prefer someone who is more susceptible and/or willing.  When people don't choose you, it is not necessarily only reflect upon you (i.e., I am not desirable, I am not worthy) but rather them selecting what works for them (i.e., someone with whom they can dysfunctionally enmesh).

...And also my ex removed a foster child from their home after 2 yrs, for some crazy teenage issue.  The wife and the teenager were very close, and he ripped her away when she had a teenage screw up and returned her to foster care.  They had been talking about adopting her, looking at colleges, teaching her to drive.  I think he became jealous over the bond between the wife and the girl and got rid of her at first chance.

Bingo, the minute the wife became attached to the foster child, the foster child was seems as a source of competition for her attention, of which he would only tolerate a monopoly.

So yes, his wife sold her soul to keep peace with him.  There's other stories that seem odd to.  So I need to change my view of what I consider to be "stable".  And at who's expense?  His wife is now dead from Lung Cancer.  Never smoked a day in her life.  Who knows what causes cancer?  Maybe swallowing your anger and dreams.

Certainly that kind of unhappiness doesn't not help when fighting disease.

Best wishes, Schwing

[dah1029]

Thanks Schwing.  Alot of people have written very helpful insights to me.  Thank you everybody.

[MarshaDole]

Schwing, what you wrote is really helpful to me today. I have taken a break from dating for quite a few months already. By bits and starts, I'm well on the way to total recovery, but my concern about dating is perhaps to fall for the same type of scenario again without realizing it. Therefore, I've been seeing a T for six months already, and the primary topic each week is starting to be more about how to move on and find a healthy relationship rather than to continually rehash what happened in the last one.

I myself, like you, grew up in a very dysfunctional situation. With my present perspective, I believe my parents had a strong NPD/BPD component in their relationship. I grew up thinking my primary responsibility was to make my mother feel better. And she lived to a ripe old age, so that dynamic continued right up until the week she died. She was a queen N with a very strong will. Lately I've come to see she had a lot of BPD going on with her as well. She thrived on drama. My dad was withdrawn most of the time and passive/aggressive or overtly angry most of the rest of the time. He was also a workaholic. As the youngest child by quite a few years, as a teenager I was alone with my mother most of the time. She told me what to wear even when I was well past legal age.
I used to come home from high school each day and find her on the couch with a wet cloth on her head, complaining constantly of headaches, stomach upsets, hives and other ailments. I was supposed to accept this as normal and cater to her needs, and I did. As an adult child, I often spent an hour or even more on the phone with her each and every day, longing desperately to hang up and have her leave me alone for the remainder of the day, but she ALWAYS called back, sometimes three or four times. She always had some kind of drama going on, if not with me than with one of my siblings. My father finally left and went to another state for some peace and quiet when they were retirement age, so I really had my hands full with her after that. My father used to talk to me before he left about wanting "peace and quiet." When he finally decided to make the break, I was the adult child who helped him move. My brother took my mother's side and wouldn't speak to my father again until three days before he died.

Now flash forward many years later to the day I met my exBPD bf. He was then in a relationship with a queen N, extremely controlling woman, a relationship that when I look back, was very much like the one my parents had. My mother was the classic N with some BPD mixed in, and my father definitely had some BPD traits.

When I met my exBPD bf through work, he confided in me that he longed for peace and quiet but couldn't leave the relationship he was in for financial reasons and fear of his partner's vindictiveness. She owned a business that was the only source of income he had, and his paycheck was very small (as were his duties). He was captivated with me chemistry-wise and in other ways, and I was mutually smitten. We tried to keep a lid on it for a while, but the attraction was powerful and compelling. One day he called me and said he was leaving his partner because he had finally had enough, just as my father had called me years and years ago. I was elated, and was even more elalted when he asked me to come and pick him up and help him move in with me. And in that same conversation he also asked me to marry him. Although that felt like way too much way too soon, I said, "yes, but let's give it a while of living together first." Than I went to pick him up. He moved in with me that very night.

There was no dating relationship, as you can tell from reading this. So one of the many lessons i've learned from this is to spend at least a year getting to know any new person and doing a lot of evalutation and soul-searching before combining households or talking about marriage.

My exBPD bf is now back with the very same woman he couldn't wait to be "liberated" from. After raking her over the coals for months on end, he suddenly painted me black and took off, claiming he couldn't live without her. The truth is, he ran out of money, and when I suggested he tackle some type of work ASAP to make ends meet, he suddenly decided he had had life pretty good over where he was before. Never mind the controlling, N behavior. It was what he had been used to, and it was where all his bills and needs were taken care of for him by someone else.

As I've written earlier in this thread, if that's someone's idea of a "stable" relationship, it's definitely not for me. I was overwhelmed with chemistry and unexpected feelings of once-in-a-lifetime love and blissful togetherness, and I thought he was like my father had been, passively tolerating a controlling, Type A woman for the sake of familiarity and financial security. I remember feeling almost gleeful about helping him obtain "liberation" much as I felt that way on my father's behalf years earlier.

Alas, the exBPD bf's liberation turned into a BPD suicidal nightmare, one which I lived through and never want to repeat.  

[schwing]

Hi MarshaDole,

I myself, like you, grew up in a very dysfunctional situation. With my present perspective, I believe my parents had a strong NPD/BPD component in their relationship. I grew up thinking my primary responsibility was to make my mother feel better. And she lived to a ripe old age, so that dynamic continued right up until the week she died. She was a queen N with a very strong will. Lately I've come to see she had a lot of BPD going on with her as well. She thrived on drama. My dad was withdrawn most of the time and passive/aggressive or overtly angry most of the rest of the time. He was also a workaholic.

My mother was the consummate waif and my father was the NPD rescuer.  Like yours, my mother thrived in drama and my father was emotionally withdrawn.  With this combination, it had been very difficult to find the "right" degree of intimacy and connectedness with partners; what was familiar for me was either complete enmeshment or else emotional distance.  I imagine you might be dealing with similar difficulties.

As the youngest child by quite a few years, as a teenager I was alone with my mother most of the time. She told me what to wear even when I was well past legal age.

"Legal age" to decide what to wear for yourself?  What country are you in?  Ha.  I jest.

I used to come home from high school each day and find her on the couch with a wet cloth on her head, complaining constantly of headaches, stomach upsets, hives and other ailments. I was supposed to accept this as normal and cater to her needs, and I did.

My mother is also a hypochondriac. It makes it far too easy for us to feel at home to drop what is important to us, in order to "rescue" whoever needs rescuing.  Certainly for those who are sincerely in need, this is an admirable trait in someone.  But likewise does it make us vulnerable to those who manipulate through their own helplessness.

My father finally left and went to another state for some peace and quiet when they were retirement age, so I really had my hands full with her after that. My father used to talk to me before he left about wanting "peace and quiet." When he finally decided to make the break, I was the adult child who helped him move. My brother took my mother's side and wouldn't speak to my father again until three days before he died.

There was a time between college and graduate school that I spent time with my parents.  And my mother became so clinging, that I practically scolded my father, reminding him that she is not my wife, but his.  When your father left your mother, it seemed like most of your family expect you to replace his role with respect to your mother.

When I met my exBPD bf through work, he confided in me that he longed for peace and quiet but couldn't leave the relationship he was in for financial reasons and fear of his partner's vindictiveness. She owned a business that was the only source of income he had, and his paycheck was very small (as were his duties). He was captivated with me chemistry-wise and in other ways, and I was mutually smitten.

Not to diminish your attractive qualities, which I am certain you have, but I would guess that what he was most captivated by with you, was your responsiveness to his "helpless" situation.  He wanted someone to rescue him from a situation of his choosing, and you probably seemed like someone to him whom might thrive in the role.  And as a reward for filling that role, he played the role of your soulmate.

And in that same conversation he also asked me to marry him. Although that felt like way too much way too soon, I said, "yes, but let's give it a while of living together first." Than I went to pick him up. He moved in with me that very night.

All or none.  Completely enmeshed or else totally disconnected.  These are the only binary modes that pwBPD seem capable of being in with regards to interpersonal relationships.  It makes sense though; what makes us the "perfect" partner in the beginning is that we do not seem to trigger their abandonment fears the way their intimate partners do.  And this is because the relationship is so new that there is very little "true" intimacy (intimacy which can only be developed over time and through familiarity).  This is why they need to rush relationships.  Because if they did not, then they would become all too aware of their own disordered emotions, and *pop* goes the fantasy.

There was no dating relationship, as you can tell from reading this. So one of the many lessons i've learned from this is to spend at least a year getting to know any new person and doing a lot of evalutation and soul-searching before combining households or talking about marriage.

"Instant" intimacy = "disposable" intimacy.

My exBPD bf is now back with the very same woman he couldn't wait to be "liberated" from. After raking her over the coals for months on end, he suddenly painted me black and took off, claiming he couldn't live without her. The truth is, he ran out of money, and when I suggested he tackle some type of work ASAP to make ends meet, he suddenly decided he had had life pretty good over where he was before. Never mind the controlling, N behavior. It was what he had been used to, and it was where all his bills and needs were taken care of for him by someone else.

I would guess differently.  The money is only an issue of convenience.  I think that while you were "new" with little true intimacy to trigger his disordered feelings, he really preferred to be with you.  But as that intimacy developed, then he would have to change partners in order to continue avoiding his disordered feelings.  He would be running back to his ex, yes.  But I would guess that given his ex's disposition, she is less capable to generating the kind of intimacy that triggers his disordered feelings.  They are a better "match" in the sense that their dysfunctions compliment each other; i.e., NPD's are less capable of intimacy, etc..

He *believes* that the reason why he didn't want to be with his partner was because of the lack of "peace and quiet" in their relationship.  What he truly wanted to avoid was his growing fear of abandonment.  But by abandoning her first, he avoided that fear.  And by abandoning you before you would choose to leave him, again he avoided that fear.  I am certain the next time his fear of abandonment begins to overwhelm him, he will seek another rescue.

Compared to his relationship with his partner, one might say that it was more "stable" that his relationship with you.  But only because he was less stable in the face of more real intimacy.  He was "stable" with his partner only because their relationship was more dysfunctional.  Not really something you would want for yourself.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[MarshaDole]

Hi Schwing:

Your analysis is most likely 100 percent on the mark in each and every instance. You make several points, too, that I hadn't really thought about, and those points filled in a few more gaps. Gradually, things are increasingly clear to me about what happened in this relationship and why.

Your prediction that he will need "rescuing" again at some point down the road is one reason I keep returning to this board. Thus far I've nipped in the bud each and every attempt he has made to reengage me in his drama. There's no doubt in my mind that this man would very much like to keep a triangle going on in some way indefinitely. I have told him clearly that it will never happen. In the beginning, I only half believed that myself. Now I know I mean it. But coming to this board reinforces just exactly WHY I mean it. Thanks for taking the time to write back, because I got a lot of insight from what you wrote today, and probably everyone else on here did too!  :-)

[luckystrikes]

oh my god schwing, you really are the best around. that bit you wrote earlier spoke to me in every single way. i did not grow up around personality disordered parents, but ive been around personality disordered and troubled people my entire life. my best friends, who, i would stress, are the very best friends a person could ask for, came from broken homes. its kind of strange. i can pick male friends who have some damage, who are the best choices ive ever made. go for a girl with some damage, and its never just "some", and its totally over my head.

ive been living exactly the same dynamic that you describe. how is it that you finally came to truly live up to your standards, and hold other people to them? i too know precisely what i want and deserve. why is it even though i know that, and ive thoroughly identified my bad patterns, do i continue to do it?

[SunflowerFields]

He was "stable" with his partner only because their relationship was more dysfunctional. 

This is the key.

The absolute key.

I can vouch for this from seeing my ex's life, whose first wife was a woman in touch with her feelings (they lasted only a few years), his second wife lasted 20 but their r/s was very dysfunctional (all in terms of real intimacy), and I could not live without real intimacy - I would not budge - thus I ended up triggering him tremendously - and he had to flee.

Schwing, if there was anyone from this board I would love to meet in person, it would be you, my friend (and, of course, get hours of free threrapy in process  ). Hope you are well.

[dah1029]

I feel like I'm very in touch with my feelings and like to psychoanalyze why I do what I do all the time.  It's one of the reasons why I find my ex's inability to verbally communicate to me very frustrating.  So much could be cleared up or would have never happened if he had the ability to effectively communicate.  Perhaps his ability to have stayed with his now deceased wife for 18 yrs is that they didn't require this intimacy of eachother.  I don't really know.  I do know that when I felt more attached to him, told him I loved him a few times this past summer (1 1/2 yrs into our R/S), he stiffened, things changed, and he started withdrawing.  It's interesting that when we split up he wrote me one of his rotten emails accusing me of an inability for an intimate R/S.  He was almost angry that I claimed to love him.  Stated that I didn't act like it and that I didn't know how to love.  But yet later on stated that he was the one that is incapable of loving, feels so empty, and feels he'll never be able to love again.  And let me say that if putting up with this nonsense for the past 7 mos isn't a proclamation of love, then I don't know what is. 

I've stepped away now.  I have to. But I'm still weak. And if he called me tomorrow asking for help, I'd be there.  I know I would.  What I want to figure out is what I would expect after being there to pick up the peices.  Am I doing it looking to re-engage?  Or am I doing it out of concern for a "friend" ?  I'm not sure where I categorize him right now. 

[MarshaDole]

I hate to ask this question, but if we're seeking a healthy relationship with real intimacy, what does that real intimacy consist of, and how can we distinguish it from the glow of the honeymoon stage with our ex-pwBPD? I thought he and I would grow old together. We went biking and swimming together, took long walks, listened to music together and watched movies with a bucket of popcorn shared between us and our arms around each other, told each other we wished we had met right out of college, told our families to expect a wedding (he initiated this and got on the phone and told his elderly parents and siblings that I was the one he'd waited for all his life), etc.
How do you tell when you've found the "real thing" versus what I've just described? What is genuine intimacy?

[goinbonkers]

I hate to ask this question, but if we're seeking a healthy relationship with real intimacy, what does that real intimacy consist of, and how can we distinguish it from the glow of the honeymoon stage with our ex-pwBPD? I thought he and I would grow old together. We went biking and swimming together, took long walks, listened to music together and watched movies with a bucket of popcorn shared between us and our arms around each other, told each other we wished we had met right out of college, told our families to expect a wedding (he initiated this and got on the phone and told his elderly parents and siblings that I was the one he'd waited for all his life), etc.
How do you tell when you've found the "real thing" versus what I've just described? What is genuine intimacy?

I feel that genuine intimacy is more actions than words.  I am usually a sucker for just the words though.  And that's where I erred.

[GP44]

Can they be more 'stable' with some partners? What does stable mean? Lack of fighting, lack of drama? A relationship that has a day to day dynamic that is mature and adult? Sure, for some of them, that can be the case, for awhile anyways. At the end of the day they are people too. Most relationships have a honeymoon period where both people are on their best behavior. All but the most dysfunctional trainwrecks can navigate a honeymoon period. To me this is an attachment disorder and it deploys when the sufferer has their engulfment and intimacy issues triggered.

I think what the OP is really asking is can they be healthier with some partners? Every relationship is unique. The chemistry and the personalities are unique. Maybe healthier, I suppose, but I don't know about healthy ultimately. A relationship that lasts a long time with a BPD might have some built-in distance, be it emotionally, geographically or otherwise.

They didn't save their behavior for just us. Indeed, the better you treat them, the closer they get to you, the worse they treat you in the end.

[luckystrikes]

I feel like I'm very in touch with my feelings and like to psychoanalyze why I do what I do all the time.  It's one of the reasons why I find my ex's inability to verbally communicate to me very frustrating.  So much could be cleared up or would have never happened if he had the ability to effectively communicate.  Perhaps his ability to have stayed with his now deceased wife for 18 yrs is that they didn't require this intimacy of eachother.  I don't really know.  I do know that when I felt more attached to him, told him I loved him a few times this past summer (1 1/2 yrs into our R/S), he stiffened, things changed, and he started withdrawing.  It's interesting that when we split up he wrote me one of his rotten emails accusing me of an inability for an intimate R/S.  He was almost angry that I claimed to love him.  Stated that I didn't act like it and that I didn't know how to love.  But yet later on stated that he was the one that is incapable of loving, feels so empty, and feels he'll never be able to love again.  And let me say that if putting up with this nonsense for the past 7 mos isn't a proclamation of love, then I don't know what is. 

I've stepped away now.  I have to. But I'm still weak. And if he called me tomorrow asking for help, I'd be there.  I know I would.  What I want to figure out is what I would expect after being there to pick up the peices.  Am I doing it looking to re-engage?  Or am I doing it out of concern for a "friend" ?  I'm not sure where I categorize him right now. 

i feel the same way about myself, which is one of the reasons i was so shocked, and to some extent, felt like a sucker when i learned about BPD. how could *I* be fooled? i spent three single years before my ex, sorting myself out, living in my head, seeing the error of my ways, vowing to change it, better understanding myself, figuring out, to an even greater extent, what i wanted, etc. all of this before i consciously thought "its time to get back out there, even if its another crazy one. ill learn this time. ill beat it this time. this time ill be able to walk away". you can count the errors in that thinking. i now feel lightyears beyond where i ever thought i was.

i too am someone who strives for resolution. to some extent, thats what kept me hooked. along with the constant fighting, there is constant "resolution" and "making up", and the appearance that this person finally "sees the light". so yes, the absence of logic or reason or rationale in a pwBPD would be very frustrating to someone like us. why dont they get it? we do. at the same time, we are the ones on the support group trying to figure ou where we went wrong. we havent been listening either.

as far as the rest of your post goes, i assume you can see and have added up the significance of when you told him you loved him, and his subsequent pull away. it also appears that with that just came even more expectedness on his part. "if you really love me, youll do anything for me", more or less. i think my ex understood that i "loved" her. that doesnt mean it computed properly. if it had, shed have known, sub/unconsciously tha i would not have abandoned her. but again, i dont think she ever consciously thought "hes going to abandon me". its just a matter of triggering the fear. you also show an example of his projection, i think.

not being clear on how you feel about him, the urge to help, etc, is normal, and will sort out. but thats one of the reasons members stress NC. youve got to protect yourself from that. your intentions are admirable. but this person cant be a "friend" to you. and in most cases, any "help" you gave would not only be enabling, and not only put you in emotional danger, but would just further the pathology of his disorder. if for no other reason, try to let that serve as motivation. you cant save this person. remember he is an adult, and although i am all for helping those in need, he needs to be responsible, before he asks for help.

when it comes to a pwBPD, we cannot trust our best intentions.

[desertbuck]

I think that true "stability" is impossible with some who suffers from a disorder which, by its very nature, causes deep seated emotional instability.  However, if we are questioning whether someone with BPD can be in a long term relationship, I think the answer is an equivocal yes.  Obviously, most of us on this board have had long term relationships with these people.  From my perpective, the ability of a person suffering with BPD to be in a long term relationship is directly tied to the needs of the non.  Just as with any relationship, we all have certain physical and emotional needs that must be met.  Regardless of whether we are codependent or emotinally distant, we continue to maintain any relationship, healthy or otherwise, when these needs are met.  Some of us may be less emotinally needy than others, or some of us may not get as agitated by the emotional volatility of the BPDso (this definitely wasn't me!).  Depending on our specific needs, conscious or latent, we continue to mainatin these relationships until we make the decision to leave since we know that people with this disorder will almost inevitably attempt to recycle the relationship.

[GP44]

I hate to ask this question, but if we're seeking a healthy relationship with real intimacy, what does that real intimacy consist of, and how can we distinguish it from the glow of the honeymoon stage with our ex-pwBPD? I thought he and I would grow old together. We went biking and swimming together, took long walks, listened to music together and watched movies with a bucket of popcorn shared between us and our arms around each other, told each other we wished we had met right out of college, told our families to expect a wedding (he initiated this and got on the phone and told his elderly parents and siblings that I was the one he'd waited for all his life), etc.
How do you tell when you've found the "real thing" versus what I've just described? What is genuine intimacy?

Every relationship goes from the honeymoon phase to the committed phase. It is indeed hard in the honeymoon stage to determine what you have on your hands long-term. Most people, BPDs included, if they are relatively high-functioning, can navigate a honeymoon phase. But you really don't know who the other person is at their core until the oxytocin wears off and you go from "Everything is perfect" to "I am committed to this relationship and willing to put in the effort to make it work." BPDs have trouble with the committed phase. This is where their intimacy and engulfment issues are triggered. It's why no matter how well things are going in the honeymoon phase, you shouldn't make long-term plans. It's a lesson I've had to learn the hard way. Had I done this, I would still have been really hurt when my ex left me, but I wouldn't be hanging on to dreams of a future together that were denied.

[dah1029]

I'm doing well with the NC.  18 days !  And I'm trying to really look at my codependent behaviors.  To not offer help if it isn't asked for.  My ex's downfall this past August triggered me to want to "save" him.  And it's hard to care and want to intervene with a loved on, but when they reject I need to step back.  But then you read articles from people that were in need that have written "Thank God so and so put up with me, never walked away even when I was at my most miserable, checked on me...".  So then it would get me wondering what I was suppose to do.  I'm trying to really look at how I behave now.  Sometimes when people vent to me, they just need to vent.  They're not looking for me to solve their crisis.  I need to listen more rather than to be Miss Fix-It.  And my ex knows where I am if he was ever in need.  We ended interaction a few weeks ago on a positive note.  I want to leave it that way.  It's one of the reasons that I went NC.  To leave myself in the white.  And to save my own mental health.

[Chapboy]

I hate to ask this question, but if we're seeking a healthy relationship with real intimacy, what does that real intimacy consist of, and how can we distinguish it from the glow of the honeymoon stage with our ex-pwBPD? I thought he and I would grow old together. We went biking and swimming together, took long walks, listened to music together and watched movies with a bucket of popcorn shared between us and our arms around each other, told each other we wished we had met right out of college, told our families to expect a wedding (he initiated this and got on the phone and told his elderly parents and siblings that I was the one he'd waited for all his life), etc.
How do you tell when you've found the "real thing" versus what I've just described? What is genuine intimacy?

Every relationship goes from the honeymoon phase to the committed phase. It is indeed hard in the honeymoon stage to determine what you have on your hands long-term. Most people, BPDs included, if they are relatively high-functioning, can navigate a honeymoon phase. But you really don't know who the other person is at their core until the oxytocin wears off and you go from "Everything is perfect" to "I am committed to this relationship and willing to put in the effort to make it work." BPDs have trouble with the committed phase. This is where their intimacy and engulfment issues are triggered. It's why no matter how well things are going in the honeymoon phase, you shouldn't make long-term plans. It's a lesson I've had to learn the hard way. Had I done this, I would still have been really hurt when my ex left me, but I wouldn't be hanging on to dreams of a future together that were denied.

GP44 - That sounds tough. I have a feeling we both heard such bold promises, things that you always wanted to hear, but you must realize it was all her playing her game. She did it to draw you in, to make you fall even more, to have control. It was fake just like who you saw of her. Its tough (for me to) but you have to KNOW that.

[nylonsquid]

This is a question I've been asking myself for so long. Why did my relationship only last for less than 3 months? 5 months including unsuccessful recycle attempts.

I think I got intimate with her quick. I am a giving person but I also held my ground firmly but still lovingly. When she presented problems I'd just communicate instead of engage her. She broke up when things were very well and calm. The second time she ran away is when I successfully shot her a commercial and fell sick after. When I needed her she fled.

I believe that a BPD can have a longer relationship with someone who does not genuinely give love or intimacy. An NPD is probably someone of that sort. Their definition of love is just about themselves and boosting their ego. I'm pretty sure they want to control as well and would do anything to keep the BPD hence stretching their boundaries. I cannot see myself acting like that at all so if the outcome is a short stint then I'll have to accept it.

[sm15000]

Can BPD's be stable with some partners?

The dynamics of our relationship definitely enabled it to 'look' more stable than it was.  My r/s lasted for 13 years but we never lived together (15 miles apart).  We saw each other a few times a week and went wekkends away/holidays.  I never had any problem with this - we both had busy extended lives and he was responsible for his brother with learning difficulties - i didn't want any moving in myself for a long time although we did start talking about it towards the end (trigger?  ).  So, there was never any pressure from me and he was able to 'manage' his behaviour very well with the distance.

But combined with that was the 'effect' that we were always having a good time.  When, in hindsight, i saw strange behaviour or thought he made strange comments, i excused them because although 'strange' his behaviour was never abusive - he could be arrogant or sarcastic but it was scarce.

But, of course - the possibility of instability is always there - and when it happened it was very obvious and a lot of things from previous relationships i knew etc etc started fitting into place.  His ex (after a few!) said to me once "i don't know how you put up with him" - they had a child and lived together - i couldn't understand it as I had only experienced great times - I do now 

[seeking balance]

I hate to ask this question, but if we're seeking a healthy relationship with real intimacy, what does that real intimacy consist of, and how can we distinguish it from the glow of the honeymoon stage with our ex-pwBPD? I thought he and I would grow old together. We went biking and swimming together, took long walks, listened to music together and watched movies with a bucket of popcorn shared between us and our arms around each other, told each other we wished we had met right out of college, told our families to expect a wedding (he initiated this and got on the phone and told his elderly parents and siblings that I was the one he'd waited for all his life), etc.
How do you tell when you've found the "real thing" versus what I've just described? What is genuine intimacy?

Marsha - this is a great question, deserving of it's own thread on the personal inventory board.  Please do start a thread with this topic over there 

[schwing]

@MarshaDole:

There's no doubt in my mind that this man would very much like to keep a triangle going on in some way indefinitely. I have told him clearly that it will never happen. In the beginning, I only half believed that myself. Now I know I mean it. But coming to this board reinforces just exactly WHY I mean it.

It is helpful to realize that any effort on his part to create a triangle dynamic may not necessarily be a deliberate or even conscious effort to both have his cake and eat it too.  From his perspective, it is you two who keep changing on him.  From his side, whenever things go well with one of you, around the same time "you" mess it up because suddenly he is overwhelmed by the fear of abandonment.  And so he is "forced" to run to the other person.  And if he can kept alternating between two (or more) partners, he can avoid facing his own issues, indefinitely.  Yet until he comes face to face with his issues and realize that it is HE who is the source of his disordered feelings, he will never hope to recover from his disorder.

@Luckystrikes:

ive been living exactly the same dynamic that you describe. how is it that you finally came to truly live up to your standards, and hold other people to them?

I don't know that I am living up to any "standard" of mine.  My primary endeavor is to secure my own happiness and that is a complicated (or simple depending upon your perspective) formula for me as it is for you.  But it does help to realize when one is selecting for friends and companions people who may not necessarily be adding to that happiness.  More importantly though, when I started paying attention to what I can do to keep myself happy, to provide support and love to myself... to take care of myself, then that necessarily changed the dynamic I cultivated in my interpersonal relationships.

We teach others how to treat us.  But if we do not treat ourselves well, we cannot teach others how best to treat us.  Or if we treat ourselves poorly, we cannot help but find people who similarly abuse us.  

For me, it meant learning not to be afraid... not to be afraid of being alone from time to time.  Alone does not mean lonely.  It also meant learning not to be afraid of rejection.  If I am too afraid of rejection, I will be too afraid to even inquire.  And if I do not inquire, how could I ever hope to find what might make me a happier person?  This applies not just to interpersonal relationships but intra-personal relationships... what am I denying myself if I am too afraid to seek out that which is new?

i too know precisely what i want and deserve. why is it even though i know that, and ive thoroughly identified my bad patterns, do i continue to do it?

Bad patterns, or habits are first learned in the higher portion of the brain.  But when they've been thoroughly repeated, they reside in the lower parts.  This is why we don't have to spent too much effort thinking about how to drive a car or type on the keyboard.  Our oldest patterns/habits are similarly entrenched.  And it will take some time to unravel them.  And the only way I know of that one can stop a bad habit, is to replace it with a good habit that touches a similar payoff.  So find out what kind of pay-off you are getting by repeating that bad pattern, and seek to replace it with a good habit (or multiple habits) that give you a similar pay-off.

For example, if I find myself easily falling in love with women who have BPD traits, I need to consider that some deep part of me equates those BPD behaviors to be love.  When I fight myself and tell myself that I should not want to seek out such women, I am in a sense telling myself I do not deserve love, which is self-defeating.  I need to find a new set of behaviors (preferably internally -- i.e., does not depend on someone/something outside of myself) that I can equate as love (i.e., if I do, x, y or z, this is a demonstration of love and care I have for myself... I must take care of myself)... and this is the trick.  Just because you do something that is good for you, does not necessary mean it is something that makes you feel loved or taken care of... you need to find that which instills these feelings in you.  They are out there.  But I can't tell you what will work for you, because I don't know you.  You must know you.

And so when have you developed these new set of patterns, habits that make you feel taken care of, you will have much less impetus to repeat that other bad pattern.

@dah1029:

I've stepped away now.  I have to. But I'm still weak. And if he called me tomorrow asking for help, I'd be there.  I know I would.  What I want to figure out is what I would expect after being there to pick up the peices.  Am I doing it looking to re-engage?  Or am I doing it out of concern for a "friend" ?  I'm not sure where I categorize him right now.  

I think that the most helpful way for you to "categorize him" is as a "trigger" for a set of ingrained behaviors you no longer wish to repeat.  *IF* both of you were willing and able to endeavor to change your dynamic, then that would give the two of you a fleeting chance to change the dynamic of your relationship.  But I believe that his motivation is to continue as he had before because his behaviors are very much tied to his personality disorder and are deeply cemented patterns.  The only way for him to change is to make strong in-roads into his disorder, which I doubt he is in any position to begin to do.  So the only person this leaves who has the wherewithal to change, is you.  And if you have decided to disengage from him, I think the only way you can do this is cold turkey.  He is not a "friend".  He is not someone who has the emotional maturity to alter his very dysfunctional behaviors.  And it is not in your interest to engage with those dysfunctional behaviors because it *triggers* your dysfunctional behaviors.

It does not make you a bad person when you have identified that someone is affecting you in a bad way and that you need to get distance from him or her in order to pick yourself back up.  At least wait until you feel like you have found your footing before testing it again.  But I think deep down you know that if you demanded that kind of space from him, he will be the one who cuts you off.  And what would that say about him?

...