Can BPD's be stable with some partners?

[Think About It...]

@MarshaDole:

I hate to ask this question, but if we're seeking a healthy relationship with real intimacy, what does that real intimacy consist of, and how can we distinguish it from the glow of the honeymoon stage with our ex-pwBPD?

I'm sure this kind of a question will ellicit many different opinions.  I think some of the things I write might create such a question because often I will say that in a BPD relationship, especially early on, these is little "true" intimacy.  I think I am short-cutting my point when I do this.

For me a healthy kind of intimacy involves many factions including: trust that is earn, familiarity born out of consistency of behavior and reliability, and a vulnerability that we allow ourselves to feel.  I guess I feel that often when we feel intimate with our BPD loved ones, it is not "true" in the sense that sometimes the trust is not there or is not warranted.  Or sometimes we might feel familiar with them but in truth we do not know who they are or what they are thinking, especially in those situations when their disordered behaviors manifest.  But I don't doubt that the vulnerability is there... if it were not, we would not be in the kind of pain that many of us find ourselves.

I think it is hard to answer this question because what may be true for one person may not be true for another.  I think a good approach might be: when you have a healthy relationship with yourself, you will have a better sense of what a healthy relationship with someone else might look like.

I thought he and I would grow old together. We went biking and swimming together, took long walks, listened to music together and watched movies with a bucket of popcorn shared between us and our arms around each other, told each other we wished we had met right out of college, told our families to expect a wedding (he initiated this and got on the phone and told his elderly parents and siblings that I was the one he'd waited for all his life), etc.
How do you tell when you've found the "real thing" versus what I've just described? What is genuine intimacy?

I think for you, the intimacy you felt was very much real.  But the truth is that he was incapable of maintaining that kind of relationship, and so he was incapable of sustaining that intimacy that you felt.  I cannot speak to how he felt.  Perhaps he felt that intimacy and trust and vulnerability for some time.  But it did not last for him because of his disorder.  IF he were a healthy person, it would have persisted and evolved more subtly.  It would not have turned into the roller coaster ride that it became.

So time and patience can help make this determination.  But without being able to truly look into another's heart, I think we need to depend upon our personal judgement to make that call.  I think, though, it is safe to say that in time we are made wiser by the revelation of our choices, so long as we continue to take good care of ourselves.

[schwing]

@MarshaDole:

I hate to ask this question, but if we're seeking a healthy relationship with real intimacy, what does that real intimacy consist of, and how can we distinguish it from the glow of the honeymoon stage with our ex-pwBPD?

I'm sure this kind of a question will ellicit many different opinions.  I think some of the things I write might create such a question because often I will say that in a BPD relationship, especially early on, these is little "true" intimacy.  I think I am short-cutting my point when I do this.

For me a healthy kind of intimacy involves many factions including: trust that is earn, familiarity born out of consistency of behavior and reliability, and a vulnerability that we allow ourselves to feel.  I guess I feel that often when we feel intimate with our BPD loved ones, it is not "true" in the sense that sometimes the trust is not there or is not warranted.  Or sometimes we might feel familiar with them but in truth we do not know who they are or what they are thinking, especially in those situations when their disordered behaviors manifest.  But I don't doubt that the vulnerability is there... if it were not, we would not be in the kind of pain that many of us find ourselves.

I think it is hard to answer this question because what may be true for one person may not be true for another.  I think a good approach might be: when you have a healthy relationship with yourself, you will have a better sense of what a healthy relationship with someone else might look like.

I thought he and I would grow old together. We went biking and swimming together, took long walks, listened to music together and watched movies with a bucket of popcorn shared between us and our arms around each other, told each other we wished we had met right out of college, told our families to expect a wedding (he initiated this and got on the phone and told his elderly parents and siblings that I was the one he'd waited for all his life), etc.
How do you tell when you've found the "real thing" versus what I've just described? What is genuine intimacy?

I think for you, the intimacy you felt was very much real.  But the truth is that he was incapable of maintaining that kind of relationship, and so he was incapable of sustaining that intimacy that you felt.  I cannot speak to how he felt.  Perhaps he felt that intimacy and trust and vulnerability for some time.  But it did not last for him because of his disorder.  IF he were a healthy person, it would have persisted and evolved more subtly.  It would not have turned into the roller coaster ride that it became.

So time and patience can help make this determination.  But without being able to truly look into another's heart, I think we need to depend upon our personal judgement to make that call.  I think, though, it is safe to say that in time we are made wiser by the revelation of our choices, so long as we continue to take good care of ourselves.

[luckystrikes]

thanks again schwing, that was exceedingly helpful.

i think thats kinda the direction ive been heading. ive realized to some extent, enforcing my boundaries (ive always been decent at this but need to get better) will to some extent weed 'bad' people out and/or keep me protected. i found myself in the past three months chasing a girl, hard to say if there was a PD, but probably had more red flags than my ex.

it dawned on me when i learned about BPD that i had begun to equate my stubborn willingness to persevere, and, even, to tolerate abuse, somehow made me that much more appreciable, when it was backwards. thats not appreciating myself. and like you said in another post, i tend to believe happy/healthy people naturally attract health/happy people. i think...if i can CONSCIOUSLY appreciate myself more, place myself in better places, like youre getting at, my standards will kind of catch up, and be more firm. 

it is a long lesson of unlearning patterns. i expected it to kind of already be ingrained, that i might run at the first site of a red flag, but its not. but it does register a bit louder. it still takes an AWFUL lot, but i feel like at some point it gets ridiculous enough that i say "i just cannot like this girl." progress, at least.

[Chapboy]

Is there any way to have Schwings responses on his own thread? I really appreciate all your posts, they are tremendously insightful, thanks.

[GreenMango]

Schwing's post are really insightful...you can look up his post history if you click his profile and choose the link for his posts.   .  Sage wisdom.

-GM

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[Chapboy]

Green, thanks again! 

Schwing - how much do you charge per hour for personal responses?  ;p

[schwing]

Green, thanks again! 

Schwing - how much do you charge per hour for personal responses?  ;p

Feel free to start a thread with your specific questions and just send me a PM to let me know where to find it.  Then if you want to pay it forward, make a donation here.

[MarshaDole]

Schwing, I want to echo the comments made by others. Your posts are so helpful and insightful.
When I have time, I'm going to read more of your posts, including those you made before I found this site.

I think the battle many of us here are fighting is between the rational mind and the tug of the unconscious mind that pops up now and then to tempt us with our old patterns. It's a question of:
Can the rational, aware and focused mind take charge of decision making, and by making the decisions bring about new circumstances that lead to a healthy and lasting partnership?

I believe this is possible, but I also know it takes effort and the willingness to forego temporary
temptations in the interest of real change. I work out an hour every day. I read insightful books and visit this site each day. I'm taking up activities I've always wanted to pursue. And I'm doing a lot of thinking about what I really want in a partner as well as how I can make the changes in myself that will attract and retain such a person in my life. I realize that in the three most significant relationships of my adult life, I got involved too quickly each time. I have also been infatuated in a few instances with men who for one reason or another didn't connect with me. In every single one of these cases, though, whether there was an actual relationship or not, I let the feeling of falling in love take over my life. If the man reciprocated, we plunged way too quickly into living together or, in one case, marriage... if the man I was infatuated didn't reciprocate, my thoughts were consumed with him...until the next infatuation came along. I finally got out of that pattern and was contented on my own for several years. Then this latest relationship with a pwBPD swept me off my feet and then took me to the very bottom of my resources. So NOW it's time to change this pattern. i cannot let this happen again. Falling in love is not proof of  real, healthy love, and it's taken me quite a long time to see this. I will give the next relationship plenty of time to evolve. And I will keep coming to this board along the way. :-)

[Chapboy]

Green, thanks again! 

Schwing - how much do you charge per hour for personal responses?  ;p

Feel free to start a thread with your specific questions and just send me a PM to let me know where to find it.  Then if you want to pay it forward, make a donation here.

Hey Schwing, I'm fairly new; my intro and "short" story is here: http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=170855.0

I'd love your feedback and thoughts

Marsha - So I think I posted this in my short time here, but so is it possible to fall for a non-BPD quickly and truly? I think THATS the damage BPDs can have on our mindset...

[MarshaDole]

I'm not sure how to answer your question, Chapboy. Is it possible for us to fall in love with a non-BPD? For me, I'm quite certain the answer to that is yes. But there are other pitfalls to watch out for besides BPD. Not to mention personal preference clashes.

Addictions, immaturity, dishonesty and/or criminality, chronic unemployment, excessive financial difficulties, incompatability of sexual preferences or one person having an STD even though he or she is honest and upfront about it, etc. etc. 

Even something as simple as one person being allergic to the other's pet can be a problem. In fact, the entire issue of pets can be a really sticky wicket. I happen to have a problem with dogs barking in general, especially large dogs that also jump on people. I don't have a problem with dogs in general, for I've had some of my own that rarely barked and were very well behaved, and they were small dogs to begin with. I like both cats and dogs, and although I prefer cats, I can fall in love with a Sheltie or miniature collie at first sight. But if I were to meet someone who has a couple of large, physically active dogs that also barked a lot, it would drive me totally crazy. If every time someone comes to the door or the newspaper is delivered the dog or dogs start barking like crazy, and I had to worry about them jumping on me or someone I invite over, I won't be comfortable in that environment. It's definitely one of my quirks.


I think it's a numbers game, and you just have to put yourself in dating situations and be open to new ways of meeting people, but in general, finding someone to love who is not BPD seems very doable to me. Quickly? I've decided quickly is not for me. Quickly is what gets me in trouble, for I've been making bad choices and committing to them way too soon. At this point, I don't want it to happen quickly. I want to spend quite a bit of time getting to know someone before I even think about him being "the one" ...or not. I'm not sure this answers your question, but I'm determined to change the way I get into relationships and work on keeping a level head at the beginning of any new encounter. I do believe I can finally get it right. :-)

[Chapboy]

Hey Marsha - I'm not I followed most of your post; maybe I am just out of it... 

I'm assuming by this: "
Addictions, immaturity, dishonesty and/or criminality, chronic unemployment, excessive financial difficulties, incompatability of sexual preferences or one person having an STD even though he or she is honest and upfront about it, etc. etc. " --- you were listing typical features BPDs have... showing that they can't be in sustainable relationship, unless they commit to therapy and getting better. Do they typically lie about whether or not they have STDs?

The dog/cat comparison blew right over my head... 

I'm young. I'm not really worried about meeting "the one." I know it will happen. I met her in a unique place and I'm assuming I will meet a respectable girl somewhere else unique, by chance, or whatever. However, regarding this, I do feel as if I isolated myself from everyone, except my parents. My friends, especially girls, I've had no contact with. I used to be so out going to any girls around me, not I'm timid and not me. It'll pass... it is nice being able to even talk to girls now, weird and unique feeling.

But my question was more along the lines: Can you find someone who perhaps shows similar qualities to love that of a bod: "I will never give up on you." "I will never leave you/hurt you" blah blah blah and it is sincere? It isn't BPD? That they truly are obsessively in love with you, as your BPD appeared to be with you? The recent posts I've read seem people believe they must settle for a "6" over a "9" because they are sane, etc, and a more pessimistic outlook on finding someone as good as their BPD, when instead you should know we won't find someone as good as your BPD, but WAY BETTER!

[patientandclear]

Not to diminish your attractive qualities, which I am certain you have, but I would guess that what he was most captivated by with you, was your responsiveness to his "helpless" situation.  He wanted someone to rescue him from a situation of his choosing, and you probably seemed like someone to him whom might thrive in the role.  And as a reward for filling that role, he played the role of your soulmate.

Just, wow.  This is the simplest, best summary of the "soul mate" facade I've seen.  Ugh.

[GreenMango]

Chapboy,

I think you stumbled on a little gem here...

a more pessimistic outlook on finding someone as good as their BPD, when instead you should know we won't find someone as good as your BPD, but WAY BETTER!

This sounds like a new thread (hint  ) on what you have learned you about yourself being in a relationship with a pwBPD and your new boundaries/needs/values.  Even a traumatic as the relationships are they can teach us something. 

Just a thought.

GM

[luckystrikes]

Hey Marsha - I'm not I followed most of your post; maybe I am just out of it... 

I'm assuming by this: "
Addictions, immaturity, dishonesty and/or criminality, chronic unemployment, excessive financial difficulties, incompatability of sexual preferences or one person having an STD even though he or she is honest and upfront about it, etc. etc. " --- you were listing typical features BPDs have... showing that they can't be in sustainable relationship, unless they commit to therapy and getting better. Do they typically lie about whether or not they have STDs?

you can find a lot of those things with a pwBPD, just like you can anyone. i think what she was listing were more or less incompatibilities and/or  |> s. i assume theres nothing unique to BPD about whether or not they lie about stds. theres plenty of motive to lie about it in anyones case. i suppose if theyre the more secretive type, the more promiscuous type, or the cheating time theres a higher chance. but again, those characteristics arent unique to BPD. you gotta watch out for unhealthy/abusive people in general.

I'm young. I'm not really worried about meeting "the one." I know it will happen. I met her in a unique place and I'm assuming I will meet a respectable girl somewhere else unique, by chance, or whatever. However, regarding this, I do feel as if I isolated myself from everyone, except my parents. My friends, especially girls, I've had no contact with. I used to be so out going to any girls around me, not I'm timid and not me. It'll pass... it is nice being able to even talk to girls now, weird and unique feeling.

careful. young or not, this can become a pattern. i was young once (i still am ). in high school i was with three girls with BPD traits. it is fortunate that not only are you young, but youre realistic and optimistic about this person not being the be all end all, and there being more fish in the sea. thats important to know. a pwBPD can often feel like youve found and lost your soul mate. when you say youve isolated, do you mean since this occurred, or during? if you meant during, its very easy to become a bit consumed with tending to the needs of a pwBPD. if you meant since it occurred, a little bit of "me time" is certainly in order, to regain your composure, so to speak, and to appreciate being on your own (as opposed to "being alone"), but "isolation" isnt good for anyone. often the after math of the relationship (and, to some extent, any relationship, but far more so with a pwBPD) will leave your self confidence, self assuredness, your sense of self quite shaken, if not hidden. isolation can be a convenient alternative, and can even become addictive. you dont have to do anything you dont want to do. but if you want to recover, the goal is to get some joy back in your heart. that requires, to some extent, loving/healthy relationships with others.

But my question was more along the lines: Can you find someone who perhaps shows similar qualities to love that of a bod: "I will never give up on you." "I will never leave you/hurt you" blah blah blah and it is sincere? It isn't BPD? That they truly are obsessively in love with you, as your BPD appeared to be with you? The recent posts I've read seem people believe they must settle for a "6" over a "9" because they are sane, etc, and a more pessimistic outlook on finding someone as good as their BPD, when instead you should know we won't find someone as good as your BPD, but WAY BETTER!

well, sure. i think you always ought to be a little leery about people who speed things up too quickly, or make you feel uncomfortable. im not a borderline. i told my ex plenty of those things and things like them, and it was sincere. although, in my opinion someone saying something like "i will never leave you/hurt you" is subject to scrutiny. its a nice feeling thing to say in the moment, but anyone who says it is kidding you and themselves. it sounds more like fantasy. i dont think "obsession" has anything to do with "love". infatuation and puppy love are normal in the early stages of a relationship. the natural evolution of it tends to die down. that doesnt mean you cant be a lovey dovey couple, but being compelled to do so begins to come from a different place, of real intimacy. im pretty obsessive in the early stages, for a number of reasons. to some extent it can be helped. to some extent it cant. but theres not really anything healthy about "obsession".

heres the answer to your question, though: actions > words.

boy i hope this worked. i attempted to rip off schwings format seems much simpler.