Have no idea what to do

[Think About It...]

My husband of 17 years has just been diagnosed as BPD with narcissistic traits.  Our marriage has been a struggle pretty much since day one.  We dated and got married very quickly.  He had a pretty extensive sexual past whereas I had none at all.  I didn't learn the details of his past until a few months after we got married, and I had a great deal of trouble dealing with the new information.  I just needed some time.  However, once I was able to get past it, the damage had been done as far as he was concerned.  In his mind, I now thought he was disgusting and a whore.  He began to get very angry, act out, and treated me terribly.  That just made me not want to be with him, which just perpetuated the problem.  In the meantime, we had 2 children and he was awful throughout the pregnancies and after delivery.  He said I was a mother now and didn't care about being a wife anymore.

All of his acting out behaviors have been sexual in nature.  I found porn on our computer about 8 or 9 years ago.  He always wanted to video tape our encounters or have sex in public places and got angry when I said I wasn't comfortable with it.  Even when I gave in, it wasn't enough that I agreed to do it.  I had to love doing it as much as he did.  He began flirting with other women.  He went to New Orleans for a conference about 7 years ago and he was out of control.  No infidelity, but he did things he knew would hurt me.  We moved shortly after that to try to "start over."

2 and a half years after we moved, I thought things were getting better.  Apparently he did not.  He met someone at work who let him know she thought he was attractive, and that's all it took.  He had his first affair (or the first to my knowledge).  He was disgusted with himself afterwards and didn't want to have anything more to do with this woman.  It was excrutiating.  We started counseling but just quit going at one point.  

Almost 3 years after the affair, we found out I was pregnant again.  It was a huge shock, considering our other children are 14 and 11 now.  But we saw it as a new beginning.  The pregnancy was so much better this time around.  He was much more attentive.  When the baby was about 4 months old, I slipped into pretty severe postpartum depression.  I could hardly function.  I tried talking to him about it, but he at one point told me that he was tired of me complaining and didn't want to hear any more.  I had just really started trying to "get back in the saddle" again sexually, but I was having a lot of pain.  He was beginning to go back to the way he used to be - angry and not treating me well.  So, I withdrew from him again.  I was just beginning to feel a little better when he had to go to Chicago for another conference.  You can guess what happened next.

He had another affair.  This time, though, he really liked this woman.  She was beautiful and exciting and didn't feel disgust with him.  She welcomed the attention.  He continued contact with her for a couple of weeks until I found out about the affair.  It was very hard to get him to terminate any contact with her.  He really felt a connection with her, and I think she felt the same.  He said it hurt him to think that he couldn't communicate with her anymore.  Now, a couple of weeks later, he says he can hardly remember what she looks like, doesn't want to think about his time with her, and doesn't want to have any contact with her.

I cannot get these affairs out of my mind.  I replay them over and over and over.  I cannot quit visualizing him with someone else.  I feel like I'm going crazy - I feel anxious all the time and my heart just pounds.  He started counseling again and was diagnosed a couple of weeks ago.  

Now I'm concerned that I may have BPD as well.  I can't hardly let him leave the room.  I want to talk about this all the time.  I ask for details, even though it tortures me and makes the visualizations all that much more vivid.  My feelings change literally by the minute.  Sometimes I want him gone and other times I can't stand the thought of him leaving.  I've looked at counselors in the area for me but haven't made an appointment yet.

I absolutely do not know what to do.      

[supernurse]

My husband of 17 years has just been diagnosed as BPD with narcissistic traits.  Our marriage has been a struggle pretty much since day one.  We dated and got married very quickly.  He had a pretty extensive sexual past whereas I had none at all.  I didn't learn the details of his past until a few months after we got married, and I had a great deal of trouble dealing with the new information.  I just needed some time.  However, once I was able to get past it, the damage had been done as far as he was concerned.  In his mind, I now thought he was disgusting and a whore.  He began to get very angry, act out, and treated me terribly.  That just made me not want to be with him, which just perpetuated the problem.  In the meantime, we had 2 children and he was awful throughout the pregnancies and after delivery.  He said I was a mother now and didn't care about being a wife anymore.

All of his acting out behaviors have been sexual in nature.  I found porn on our computer about 8 or 9 years ago.  He always wanted to video tape our encounters or have sex in public places and got angry when I said I wasn't comfortable with it.  Even when I gave in, it wasn't enough that I agreed to do it.  I had to love doing it as much as he did.  He began flirting with other women.  He went to New Orleans for a conference about 7 years ago and he was out of control.  No infidelity, but he did things he knew would hurt me.  We moved shortly after that to try to "start over."

2 and a half years after we moved, I thought things were getting better.  Apparently he did not.  He met someone at work who let him know she thought he was attractive, and that's all it took.  He had his first affair (or the first to my knowledge).  He was disgusted with himself afterwards and didn't want to have anything more to do with this woman.  It was excrutiating.  We started counseling but just quit going at one point.  

Almost 3 years after the affair, we found out I was pregnant again.  It was a huge shock, considering our other children are 14 and 11 now.  But we saw it as a new beginning.  The pregnancy was so much better this time around.  He was much more attentive.  When the baby was about 4 months old, I slipped into pretty severe postpartum depression.  I could hardly function.  I tried talking to him about it, but he at one point told me that he was tired of me complaining and didn't want to hear any more.  I had just really started trying to "get back in the saddle" again sexually, but I was having a lot of pain.  He was beginning to go back to the way he used to be - angry and not treating me well.  So, I withdrew from him again.  I was just beginning to feel a little better when he had to go to Chicago for another conference.  You can guess what happened next.

He had another affair.  This time, though, he really liked this woman.  She was beautiful and exciting and didn't feel disgust with him.  She welcomed the attention.  He continued contact with her for a couple of weeks until I found out about the affair.  It was very hard to get him to terminate any contact with her.  He really felt a connection with her, and I think she felt the same.  He said it hurt him to think that he couldn't communicate with her anymore.  Now, a couple of weeks later, he says he can hardly remember what she looks like, doesn't want to think about his time with her, and doesn't want to have any contact with her.

I cannot get these affairs out of my mind.  I replay them over and over and over.  I cannot quit visualizing him with someone else.  I feel like I'm going crazy - I feel anxious all the time and my heart just pounds.  He started counseling again and was diagnosed a couple of weeks ago.  

Now I'm concerned that I may have BPD as well.  I can't hardly let him leave the room.  I want to talk about this all the time.  I ask for details, even though it tortures me and makes the visualizations all that much more vivid.  My feelings change literally by the minute.  Sometimes I want him gone and other times I can't stand the thought of him leaving.  I've looked at counselors in the area for me but haven't made an appointment yet.

I absolutely do not know what to do.      

[CaptainM]

Now I'm concerned that I may have BPD as well.  I can't hardly let him leave the room.  I want to talk about this all the time.  I ask for details, even though it tortures me and makes the visualizations all that much more vivid.  My feelings change literally by the minute.  Sometimes I want him gone and other times I can't stand the thought of him leaving.  I've looked at counselors in the area for me but haven't made an appointment yet.

Firstly, from someone who has been in an almost identical situation regarding affairs and fidelity, therapy is a great idea.

You don't sound like you have BPD to me at all - you sound like you have no trust in him, which is frankly rather understandable. You're obsessing over this situation probably trying to work out why it happened in the hope that you can understand it and stop it happening again.

What are your boundaries regarding infidelity? Do you need him to be faithful in your relationship or is that as 'flexible' as he seems to believe it is?

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for analyzing and making the decision to either continue working on your relationship or to leave it. If you have already please advance to "L3 Leaving" or the "L4 Staying" board. All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[supernurse]

As far as boundaries regarding infidelity, I apparently have none, although I wish I did.  I told him after the first affair that I would leave if he did it again, but I haven't left yet.  So I know in my heart that he will do this again because he knows I won't leave.  And, I won't.  I can't seem to, for whatever reason.  I wish I had been able to leave him after the first one.  I wish I could leave him now.

As I've started reading about and researching BPD, I just seem to have some of the characteristics.  I "idealized" him in the beginning until he showed a flaw (his past), I am quite critical of him, I don't like for him to even leave the room & can't leave him, and I ask for details of his affairs (maybe to torture myself?).  Maybe I'm just trying to ascribe more blame to myself - I don't know.

All I want to do is sit and talk about this with him.  While, like I said, I do wonder if I have some characteristics of BPD and think this may be the masochistic part, I also wonder if it's just because I don't want him to forget how I'm feeling about this.  I do stuff like this - if I stop talking about it, then maybe he'll think everything is okay.  I want him to know all the time that I'm suffering over this.  

[mina_32]

Hi supernurse,

they have no remorse. He will continue with his crap. Like you I wish I could leave too.

Mine use to enjoy telling me about his affairs in his previous marriage. even with a 18 year old in a hotel.

In their world they are their own God. How You feel about it does not matter to them unless it affects them in one way or the other.

It is all about them. If you have the means to ...Leave..

We are putting our self very low as a human being tolerating this much disrespect..

Love  

[CaptainM]

All I want to do is sit and talk about this with him.  While, like I said, I do wonder if I have some characteristics of BPD and think this may be the masochistic part, I also wonder if it's just because I don't want him to forget how I'm feeling about this.  I do stuff like this - if I stop talking about it, then maybe he'll think everything is okay.  I want him to know all the time that I'm suffering over this.  

You want him to understand what you're going through - you want recognition for how much it hurt. You want him to feel guilty, to acknowledge your pain and to say why he did it and what he's changed so it won't ever happen again. Am I close? Because that's how I felt.

If it were you that cheated, you'd feel guilty. You'd express your sorrow for hurting him and you'd do everything you could to show how you'd changed. But that's not what you're getting back and it's frustrating you.

Why isn't he acting in the way you expected? Because the two of you speak different emotional languages. He has limitations as to how he can express complex emotions like guilt, empathy and remorse. Those feelings overwhelm him so he doesn't process them. I absolutely understand you wanting to sit back and talk this through rationally but the reality of the situation is it's probably not going to happen.

It will ultimately be your choice as to whether you choose to move on from this and stop trying to make him feel remorse and guilt (not because what he did was okay, but because it's not working and it's only hurting you) or deciding that this action violated one of your boundaries and taking appropriate action. I'm sorry to be this blunt, I spend ages wishing my ex would suddenly snap out of it and speak my emotional language but we have to accept their limitations and work within them.

Now, about your boundaries - it sounds like you feel that infidelity should be a boundary for you but you have trouble enforcing it because you fear leaving. Is that close to the mark?

Please look after yourself, I do understand how hard this is on you 

[supernurse]

You are absolutely correct.  Infidelity should be a boundary for me, but I just can't make it one.  I don't know why - I would tell friends or family to leave if their significant other was being unfaithful.  Any trust I had in him has been completely broken, and I'm pretty sure its not reparable.  So what does that leave me with for the rest of my life?

He feels guilt right now, but I don't think it's due to hurting me.  I think it's because it makes him feel bad about himself.  He says he feels terrible that he hurt me, but I don't think he really gets it.  Everything has always been about how it makes him feel, whether he realizes it or not.  And, you're right, no amount of badgering from me is going to make him feel, understand, or empathize. 

I have my first counseling appointment today.  I have so many questions swimming around in my head.  One of my questions is about dealing with his needs.  He has an incessant need to be with me physically.  If I turn him down, he becomes furious, which leads to his acting-out behaviors.  Then those behaviors disgust and hurt me, so I don't want to be with him, which in turn just keeps the circle going.  I just can't bring myself to be with him because all I think about when we are together are his affairs and I know that what we are doing is something he did with someone else.  I don't want to touch him or kiss him, and that drives him batty, which makes him run off and look at porn, or masturbate compulsively, or cheat.  So it's as if I have to overlook how I'm feeling and force myself to do things I don't want to do to try to keep him from engaging in these other behaviors.  But he can look at me and see that I don't want to be there, so that irritates him and he continues with the other behaviors anyway.  How sad is that? 

I just feel so stuck.
 

[artman.1]

Supernurse,     Since you seem unable to deal with these seriously broken RS issues between you, I would think you should get a therapist for yourself.  Pick one that is familiar/specializes with BPD, and Codependency.  I would recommend what my Therapist assigned me.  Obtain and read Stop Walking on eggshells, by Randi Kregar, and Codependent No More, by Melody Beattie.  You are probably much like me, and suffer from codependent behaviors.  Codependence is NOT a Mental Illness, rather it is a Learned Behavior, generally from childhood while caretaking for a disfunctional parent or family member, usually an Alcoholic/Substance abuser.  That is how I became an enabling Codependent.  I now attend weekly CODA (Codependence Anonymous) Meetings, and therapist appointments.  My UBPDW has cheated before, and I couldn't leave either, but now I am starting to heal, and beginning to clear my mind about leaving when it becomes obvious that nothing can be improved in any way.

Art

[CaptainM]

I don't want to touch him or kiss him, and that drives him batty, which makes him run off and look at porn, or masturbate compulsively, or cheat.  So it's as if I have to overlook how I'm feeling and force myself to do things I don't want to do to try to keep him from engaging in these other behaviors.  But he can look at me and see that I don't want to be there, so that irritates him and he continues with the other behaviors anyway.  How sad is that?

I hope the therapy goes well - it really does help with these situations.

Please don't take ownership of his behaviours or actions. Forcing yourself to do anything with him is only going to make your repulsion and resentment grow - he has to own the consequences of his choices because only he is in control of his actions.

I think some boundary work could really help you here. Some food for thought:

Boundaries Tools of Respect

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

Please look after yourself!

[xeon]

I read your pain loud and clear... I can also sympathize unfortunately.  Although my wife ONLY had emotional affairs, it is probably the greatest pain I've ever encountered in my life. 

I read something recently from the point of view of BPD male... his spouse too wanted to hear how sorry he was, how guilty he felt... yet the feeling he had was that cheating made him feel worse about himself, so he didn't want to do it again.  It really is all about their feelings, which is rough bit for us as partners that feel really violated!   

I'm rebuilding me though and getting to a better place... I wish the same outcome for you too.  Absolutely do plug into the online communities for support and continue your personal therapy. 

[supernurse]

I am feeling very selfish right now.  I know that my husband is seeing a counselor and trying to get better, but sometimes (most of the time, actually), I'm just angry.  I'm angry because I feel like I'm supposed to do all these things to try to understand him.  But what about me?  I don't feel like I can expect any support, understanding, comfort, etc. from him because his BPD keeps him from being able to think about anyone but himself.  I'm supposed to be there for him, but I can't ask him to be there for me because he's not capable of that.  He got angry with me because I hadn't started reading the book he got me about BPD, but he didn't try to help me last year when I tried to talk to him about my severe postpartum depression. 

I've told him that his sexual acting-out behaviors are boundaries for me.  Three problems with that, though - (1) I haven't followed through with my threat to leave if he ever had another affair, (2) These boundaries were set before he was diagnosed with BPD and we knew what we were dealing with, and (3) His behaviors have made me not want to be with him, so should I even expect him to not look into other avenues for some kind of sexual satisfaction?  Do I have the right to withdraw from him AND ask him not to look elsewhere?

One minute I want to leave and literally the next minute I have this euphoric "we can do this" type of feeling.  The title of this post says it all - I have no idea what to do.

[Lady31]

Supernurse,

What a horrible place to be in.  I can see why you are feeling so hurt, angry and insecure.  This is NOT your fault!

As far as supporting him and feeling angry because he hasn't supported you and can't.  That anger is valid and ok!  It is a human response.  Sometimes the anger over what they have done helps us to start setting the boundaries we NEED in order to maintain our health and self esteem.

There is no answer right now that will not bring you pain.  That is something I had to grasp for myself at one point.  I kept going back and forth on what to do.  My H didn't have the affairs like that that I know of, but he abused me in so many ways...Horribly. 

The first thing you have to accept is that there will be pain and discomfort for some time.  If you make the choice to divorce him, there's pain.  If you make the choice to just separate, there's pain.  If you make the choice to stay there in the home, there is pain.  At least this is what I went through.

There is no one answer that you are going to find that is going to bring immediate relief and peace.  There wasn't for me either.  So, I started focusing on the little steps. 

One, is you continuing with counseling.  Start exploring what you really want in a marriage, what you absolutely will not tolerate in a marriage, etc.  You knowing that the affairs should be a boundary for YOU, but not being able to enforce that boundary hurts your self esteem.  I know that feeling.  You are more capable than you know.  Instead of beating yourself up over this, start looking at what exactly stops you from enforcing this boundary.  Then start focusing on that with the therapist. 

The first thing I had to do was come to terms with my fears.  That is what stopped me from standing up to my abusive h.  I feared not being able to see my step daughter.  I feared leaving her with him.  I feared being ruined financially and having nothing.  (we have a business together, and I alone am financially liable for certain things...would have ruined me - at least until I picked myself up.)  I feared being so devastated and not being able to go on.  I feared having to get a divorce.  (Don't believe in it, this is my first marriage.)

You getting your self esteem back here is crucial!  That should be your main focus.  It is what will help you to set all the boundaries with him...whether it's against affairs or other abusive treatment in the marriage.  It will also help to ease your fears of being able to cope and do whatever needs to be done, and still find happiness.

I haven't had the affairs issue in this marraige but have in past relationships.  It seems like no other pain can even TOUCH that.  It is such a slap in the face and is so gut wrenching.  It is crippling pain. 

Begin journaling now.  It is helping me on the other side (I finally moved out) to focus on what kind of man my h truly is.  It is REALLY helping me.  It is my life line when I start to get in the fog or question my decision.

The other part of this is:  THIS IS A PROCESS.  Where you are now, and how you feel WILL NOT change over night.

This is what I would say to myself:  I don't have to leave RIGHT NOW.  I am working on myself and gaining strength and self esteem so I can prepare myself to leave if necessary.

I basically gave myself permission to stay until I got myself together, (emotionally, physically & mentally) so that I could leave.  It took me doing things to get my self esteem back.  It took me mentally beginning to visualize and see myself divorced and away from him.  Visualizing where I would live, what life would be like without him.  I started looking at how I could resolve the financial issues and the business when we divorced.  I basically began to prepare myself for all of this and at the same time gave myself permission to stay until I felt ready.  I quit beating myself up for not doing things the way I thought I should have in the past.  I quit beating myself up for being scared to leave him and started focusing on how I could get to where I was unafraid to leave.

I got sick of that stuck feeling.  I can't even express how over it and sick of feeling stuck I felt.  I felt like I was in such a double bind.  No way out.  What do I do?  NOW, I am out.  Still not divorced or totally NC, not totally healed...but I have HOPE.  I have some strength back.  I thought leaving him would kill me...I remember having to pull over while driving my car because I would bawl so hard.  I remember crying every day and crying myself to sleep while with him.

The good news is, I learned how to start detaching from him while I was still WITH him, so when I did leave it was MUCH easier.  I did a lot of the grieving while still being with him.

Here is the other part...doing all this for yourself and planning does not mean you HAVE TO LEAVE him in the end.  It will just make you stronger, boost your self esteem, give you hope, more peace and prepare you to make the right decision for yourself.

As I went through this process while still living at home, I got to a point where I decided that I was going to leave him for sure.  That I wouldn't divorce him, but once I was totally ready, I was going to move out and go on with my life.  I told him that if he decided to get help, great.  That I would not go forward with filing for divorce, but I would also not budge an inch on my boundaries and I would not consider going back into the home until I saw MAJOR improvement of the course of a good amount of time.  My boundaries were to include very little contact with him that would only change at certain intervals in his recovery.

This was the decions I made for myself after months of therapy and working on myself, and I finally felt strong enough.  I wasn't totally happy, but I felt I could handle it.  When I finally did go, I told him these options and he flat out said he just wanted the divorce.  I was okay with that at that point and ready for it (I didn't say NOT SAD)...that is basically what I was ready to do if he would not seek help.

Nothing is going to make your heart feel better right this minute or maybe not even really soon.  But as you START prepping yourself you will feel a little bit better, be able to take a little deeper breath.  Then when you start doing the little things, you can start focusing on those successes, even though you are not right where you want to be yet.

I hope this gives you some hope...take the pressure off of yourself.  Just start your journey.  When you are ready, then you can make a decision, and THEN you will be ready and able for whatever that decision needs to be!

MUCH LOVE TO YOU.

[Lady31]

Oh, and as far as whether you can expect him not to go elsewhere if you are unable to be intimate with him because of what HE has done?  HELL YES YOU CAN EXPECT THAT.  You can also expect your husband to be faithful to you to begin with.

You ARE entitled to set healthy boundaries for yourself.  You ARE entitled to the pain and grief you are feeling because of his horrendous and selfish actions with the affairs.  You ARE entitled to protect you precious heart, mind and body.  You ARE entitled to feel like he, AS YOUR HUSBAND and protector, should be doing this as well, instead of crushing and betraying you.

You are entitled to your feelings.  And taking care of yourself. 

Frankly HE OWES YOU.  I don't mean withholding sex from him as punishment.  If you truly want to reconcile, then after the RIGHT AMOUNT of rebuilding, you have to be able to get to a place of forgiveness and letting go.  HOWEVER, you are not being a good steward of your own self/heart if you just let him run over you without EARNING all this back.  Again, not in a self righteous or punishing way.  If you are too hurt to have sex with the man, then you are too hurt!  And that is part of the CONSEQUENCES for the decisions HE made.  So if he upset because he isn't "getting any" the only person he should be mad at is himself.

And as long as you see that his focuses that anger and blame on you for not "meeting his needs", then he is not even close to being trustworthy with your heart and body anyway!

You heart and body is a GIFT you GIVE your husband.  If he tramples all over that and expects his needs met regardless of how you feel after his betrayal, then he is not placing any VALUE ON YOU AS HIS WIFE.  He only values himself.  Which means...HE WILL DO IT AGAIN AT SOME POINT.

Hey sister...you're better than this joker! 

[supernurse]

Thank you, Lady31, for your words of support and encouragement.  I am trying to see myself as valuable and not deserving of my husband's treatment.  I think, on some level, my withholding of sex is punitive, but for the most part, I just can't bring myself to be with him physically.  What's so hard is that when we are together, it is so nice and feels right, but as soon as we are done (and sometimes right in the middle), I break down because of the thoughts of his affairs.  It's awful.  I wonder if that will ever stop. 

I haven't shown a lot of interest for a long time, even before the first affair, because of how he treated me.  He thinks I hate sex, that I think it's dirty, that I don't care if I ever have it again.  The problem is, what he doesn't see is that I think so highly of sex and its place in a marriage, that it's hard for me to be with someone who I don't have true intimacy with.  For me, it's a very vulnerable place, and it's hard to be with someone who doesn't protect me.  Sex is very different for someone who's only had 1 partner compared to someone who has had 17.  But if I try to explain that to him, it hurts his feelings or makes him feel like a whore, which makes him feel not good enough for me, which causes the acting out behaviors.  I don't know how to stop this cycle other than to be a good actress when we are together.  That never works, though.

There are many other issues besides sex, but this is the predominant one.  What's sad is that I think I could handle any of the other issues related to BPD, but this one is the most painful, and it's the one that I've been handed. 

[artman.1]

supernurse, & Lady31,
     Lady,      you have done a totally great job of outlining a path of recovery for our Nurse.  I really aplaud your effort here, and thank you from the bottom of my heart as I have suffered this kind of abuse as well. 
     supernurse,      I can only add again my one additional recomendation.  Look into help for your Codependent behaviors.  Codependence is our main Wall that prevents us from escaping this abusive Relationship.  This website always recommends working on yourself, and that means work on your Codependent nature.  This is not a bad thing, because, as Lady has described, working on your Codependence is just what she expleined.  Look into joining CODA (Codependence Annonymous).  This is a FREE group that focuses on healing.  The people are just like yourself, with same issues.  Google the CODA 12 step program, and read what the steps are about.  The First step is about what Lady has described. "We admitted we were powerless over others, --That our lives had become unmanageable."  The first part is obvious, to accept you heve no control over him.  The second part is a little more subtle, and means you must manage your life by Detaching with love.  You establish Boundries, and Limits, and begin finding a better life for yourself.  It does not mean you must leave the RS.  You just begin taking you back from his control, even if you have freely given him your life, you must stop the Enmeshment, and get away from the FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt).  I am just a very little ahead of you with my working on myself, and I already feel much of what Lady explained.
     Thank You so much, Lady            And Good Luck Nurse,         

Art