new gf is "all good", how to prepare for the split

[Think About It....]

First, the obligatory thank you to everyone.  I left my ex about a year ago and thanks to all the information I've gathered about pd's from this and other sources, I managed to complete the first step, the divorce, with 50% custody of two kids, no major financial ties to my ex, and most importantly, a very thorough understanding of who my ex is and why being the person I am enabled her behaviors. 

I have actually run into a situation I haven't encountered yet on these boards and am not sure what to do with it.   I have a wonderful girlfriend who my children adore, whom they adore to the extent that they share their adoration with their mom and with whom, their mom, seems to have no issue.  I know this can't last.  Or at least, I'm fairly sure it can't.

After initially dating a woman shortly after our split who was the mother of one of my daughter's good friends and seeing the rage it evoked in my ex, i knew I had to be more discreet in my relationships and also, I became aware of my ex's willingness to forego all boundaries and interfere in my relationships as she confronted the woman I was dating with accusatory texts and followed those accusations with a histrionic weekend long depressive episode in which, for the first time, I viewed her willingness to feign suicide attempts and manipulate the children in an effort to maintain communication with me.   it was disastrous and eye opening.  shortly after that weekend, i went low contact, stopped dating, and gained a sense of independence through re-learning how to parent, connecting with good friends with whom my relationships had been severed due to my ex, and using my free time to just breathe and understand what it felt like to not have a day to day life in which i was beholden to the needs of an unpredictable and cruel woman. 

Fast forward about six months and I meet a wonderful woman.  No children of her own and fully ok with the fact that I had a vasectomy and would not be having any more children of my own.  We are very much in love and the pacing of our relationship has been very deliberate.  Didn't introduce the kids right away, she still has not spent the night at my apartment while the kids are in my custody, and my kids think she's wonderful.  And she is...

Even my ex seems to thinks so.

This is the part that's a little troubling.  After that first dating incident, I decided it was none of my ex's business who I was dating and that she had no right to know anything of my personal life.  She discovered, I'm still not exactly sure how, that I had a girlfriend and revealed it to me along with my gf's age (she's about 7 yrs younger than me), her job title, her education... all the things any good stalking BPD should know about her ex's gf.  But she also knew that at this point, my children had met her, though had not been introduced as my girlfriend, and also knew that the children liked her very much.  She was concerned that I was lying to the kids about our relationship when in reality I was making sure my gf was someone I felt comfortable having around my kids and I wasn't prepared to introduce her as my girlfriend until I'd reached a certain level of comfort.  This all came out during a co-parent counseling session and it became clear that she was not out to destroy my gf, at least not at that time and I got the feeling not anytime in the near future either. 

I think she took some kind of comfort in knowing that I would not have children or another family with my gf and this somehow made it ok for her.  She gets to be first wife, owner of the golden uterus, and the only person I would ever have kids with... FOREVER!  I can accept this odd sort of acceptance.  It's certainly preferable to the suicidal gestures and overt alienation of the children i had experienced in the first months of separation.  To top it off, my new gf is wonderful and I am head over heals in love with her. 

Now, I've let my ex know that my gf will be moving in with us shortly and as per our parenting plan, I was giving her notice of the new living arrangement.  She is still surprisingly accepting though she's asked to meet my gf.  I told my ex I would discuss it with my gf this evening and get back to her, to which she responded that I didn't need to contact her back, just give my gf her phone number and email and have her get with my ex to "arrange coffee or something".  I let her know that I would not suggest that as I feel that would leave open the possibility of too much casual contact, and eventually, manipulation (I didn't mention this last part to her for obvious reasons). 

We have had a reasonable amount of success parallel parenting with a very strict set of guidelines garnered through some pretty painful co-parent counseling sessions.  She discontinued those sessions but left the possibility open with the counselor that we might one day return.  I don't suspect we will.  The process of dispute resolution was far too reasonable and fair for her to go back.  But I let her know that the only way I would recommend that a meeting occur was if it was in a structured and moderated session and suggested the only way I could suggest this meeting occur is in a co-parent counseling session.  I haven't heard back and know that she has avoided reading my latest message (we're on OFW so I can see her logon times and what she has viewed, i get to stalk too!). 

I actually don't think it's a great idea that they meet though I know it will happen eventually by circumstance and would rather it occur in a controlled environment with a witness and without me present. 

Any guesses as to how this might play out?  Suggestions? Comments? 

[shipjumper75]

First, the obligatory thank you to everyone.  I left my ex about a year ago and thanks to all the information I've gathered about pd's from this and other sources, I managed to complete the first step, the divorce, with 50% custody of two kids, no major financial ties to my ex, and most importantly, a very thorough understanding of who my ex is and why being the person I am enabled her behaviors. 

I have actually run into a situation I haven't encountered yet on these boards and am not sure what to do with it.   I have a wonderful girlfriend who my children adore, whom they adore to the extent that they share their adoration with their mom and with whom, their mom, seems to have no issue.  I know this can't last.  Or at least, I'm fairly sure it can't.

After initially dating a woman shortly after our split who was the mother of one of my daughter's good friends and seeing the rage it evoked in my ex, i knew I had to be more discreet in my relationships and also, I became aware of my ex's willingness to forego all boundaries and interfere in my relationships as she confronted the woman I was dating with accusatory texts and followed those accusations with a histrionic weekend long depressive episode in which, for the first time, I viewed her willingness to feign suicide attempts and manipulate the children in an effort to maintain communication with me.   it was disastrous and eye opening.  shortly after that weekend, i went low contact, stopped dating, and gained a sense of independence through re-learning how to parent, connecting with good friends with whom my relationships had been severed due to my ex, and using my free time to just breathe and understand what it felt like to not have a day to day life in which i was beholden to the needs of an unpredictable and cruel woman. 

Fast forward about six months and I meet a wonderful woman.  No children of her own and fully ok with the fact that I had a vasectomy and would not be having any more children of my own.  We are very much in love and the pacing of our relationship has been very deliberate.  Didn't introduce the kids right away, she still has not spent the night at my apartment while the kids are in my custody, and my kids think she's wonderful.  And she is...

Even my ex seems to thinks so.

This is the part that's a little troubling.  After that first dating incident, I decided it was none of my ex's business who I was dating and that she had no right to know anything of my personal life.  She discovered, I'm still not exactly sure how, that I had a girlfriend and revealed it to me along with my gf's age (she's about 7 yrs younger than me), her job title, her education... all the things any good stalking BPD should know about her ex's gf.  But she also knew that at this point, my children had met her, though had not been introduced as my girlfriend, and also knew that the children liked her very much.  She was concerned that I was lying to the kids about our relationship when in reality I was making sure my gf was someone I felt comfortable having around my kids and I wasn't prepared to introduce her as my girlfriend until I'd reached a certain level of comfort.  This all came out during a co-parent counseling session and it became clear that she was not out to destroy my gf, at least not at that time and I got the feeling not anytime in the near future either. 

I think she took some kind of comfort in knowing that I would not have children or another family with my gf and this somehow made it ok for her.  She gets to be first wife, owner of the golden uterus, and the only person I would ever have kids with... FOREVER!  I can accept this odd sort of acceptance.  It's certainly preferable to the suicidal gestures and overt alienation of the children i had experienced in the first months of separation.  To top it off, my new gf is wonderful and I am head over heals in love with her. 

Now, I've let my ex know that my gf will be moving in with us shortly and as per our parenting plan, I was giving her notice of the new living arrangement.  She is still surprisingly accepting though she's asked to meet my gf.  I told my ex I would discuss it with my gf this evening and get back to her, to which she responded that I didn't need to contact her back, just give my gf her phone number and email and have her get with my ex to "arrange coffee or something".  I let her know that I would not suggest that as I feel that would leave open the possibility of too much casual contact, and eventually, manipulation (I didn't mention this last part to her for obvious reasons). 

We have had a reasonable amount of success parallel parenting with a very strict set of guidelines garnered through some pretty painful co-parent counseling sessions.  She discontinued those sessions but left the possibility open with the counselor that we might one day return.  I don't suspect we will.  The process of dispute resolution was far too reasonable and fair for her to go back.  But I let her know that the only way I would recommend that a meeting occur was if it was in a structured and moderated session and suggested the only way I could suggest this meeting occur is in a co-parent counseling session.  I haven't heard back and know that she has avoided reading my latest message (we're on OFW so I can see her logon times and what she has viewed, i get to stalk too!). 

I actually don't think it's a great idea that they meet though I know it will happen eventually by circumstance and would rather it occur in a controlled environment with a witness and without me present. 

Any guesses as to how this might play out?  Suggestions? Comments? 

[JustSaying]

I cannot think of an advantage to new-gf of meeting x now. I'm trying to think of it with myself in your shoes and in gf's shoes with my x as the x here, and I can't come up with any reason to have a meeting. Someday it will happen, either at an exchange or at one of the kids' events. I can see quick, polite introductions. The gf can have something nice and validating and non-threatening-to-x's-status-as-mom to say, and then y'all make your exit. I would not encourage any new friend of mine to email or meet with my x, just as I have no desire to meet with any new friends of hers.

[shipjumper75]

i would tend to agree with you though i've been happy with this being the one huge issue we have had zero conflict on and I'm concerned that denying the request to meet might trigger the x to flip, start saying nasty things about my gf, and creating a difficult situation for the kids. 

i would prefer the meeting happen in a very controlled situation if i can help it with the expectation that it would be seen as a special thing under the guidance of a counselor my ex has shown a modicum of respect for.  i feel like this is kind of a tipping point.  my hope is that if there is blame, as i'm sure there will be, i can at least have it directed at me.  i'm perfectly happy being the target of blame as it keeps it off the people around me, and i know i can handle it now. 

on the other side, i'm concerned that my new gf is being idealized and allowing my ex to meet her might allow my ex to start finding fault in her and flip. 

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[Rose1]

Is your exBPDw in a relationship and trying to look reasonable moty along with a plan for you to meet her new so of the week?  If so that might explain her behaviour. I can predict with a reasonable degree of certainty that good behaviour is for a reason. Either she is trying to look good for the moment (and not for your kids since she has already demonstrated that melting down in front of them is an option) for some reason or she is up to something. She may be using this to get at your gf away from you and give her the long list of your sins.

I'd be extremely wary. My exBPDh tried briefly to be nice regarding his new relationship (now wife) in a round about way wanting me to have coffee with them. I declined saying that I'd be happy to have coffee with her but not with him (he knew why). He started yelling and going on about how terrified his new gf was of me and how there was no way he would let her have coffee with me without his protection.  Well of course that didn't happen but it told me what lies he had told her. BTW she ended up being a total b*tch to my kids eventually and buying into all his stuff - still is after 4 years of marriage and doesn't look like she is married to her soul mate whenever I have seen them. Looks rather stressed actually.

My DH had need to phone my exBPDh last year because of his behaviour to my D's around their grandfather's funeral. He saw fit to spend 1/2hr running me down and complaining how badly I've treated him etc etc etc.  I knew this would happen but DH is a non and knows how to deal with all this, which he did very well. So I can see no good really come of this. It's unnecessary - you are acting in a sensible normal way regarding the introduction of your kids to your gf - don't let your ex mess with that.

BTW there is no way I would go anywhere near my DH's  exBPDw without a kevlar vest and probably not then either. We live on the opposite side of the planet and that works for us.

Rose

[tog]

My SO has an uBPD/NPD stbxw and she has never targeted me. It is similar to your situation. His S12 adores me and tells everyone from his teachers to his lawyer to his mother how much he likes me. My SO says that he's pretty sure if it was an option, S12 would live with me over either of his parents.  ;p

I fully expected to be the target of a major smear campaign and that has never happened. I have been very much in the background since we met two years ago.   Early on, I told S12 that I wasn't trying to be his mother and I knew he loved his mother very much. I never parent, I never do anything that either she or SO can do. She was worried that he would elevate me to "mother" status, but the parenting is very much left to the two of them. (Nonetheless, S12 recently told me that he "thinks of me as a mother". We will keep that to ourselves and not tell BPDmom.)

I also think she has a narcissistic streak that causes her to want to look good to everyone, including me. But even so, there has never been even a whiff of a smear campaign going on behind the scenes, not one bit. Honestly, I think that she would like it if I gave some of the love I give to SO and his son to her. But I keep my boundaries firm.

As for meeting her, we deliberated for a while and then it happened by accident. I showed up at the exact same time that she did for an exchange and got a very polite if tense and semi-hostile "hello". At that time, she still really wanted to get back together with him, so I was a rival for sure. Since that time, we say hello at events only. I speak to her only if she speaks first and always politely. One time she told that S12 adores me and looks forward to weekends that I am there.  

Those are my best guesses as to why I haven't been targeted. Whatever the reasons, I sure am grateful.  

[shipjumper75]

I also think she has a narcissistic streak that causes her to want to look good to everyone, including me. But even so, there has never been even a whiff of a smear campaign going on behind the scenes, not one bit. Honestly, I think that she would like it if I gave some of the love I give to SO and his son to her. But I keep my boundaries firm.

This very much describes her.  She's got a perfectionist streak and since separation has ramped up her participation at the school and community stuff even though she left most of that stuff to me during our marriage.  She has been very concerned about appearances and wanting us to continue to appear as the perfect co-parenting divorcees.  I really appreciate your advice and your story gives me a little bit of hope that she may not flip.

And also your situation very much mirrors ours.  My gf definitely does not and will not be attending a lot of events for the kids and is comfortable in a role as a wonderful supportive grown up and not trying to assume a "mom" role.    

@rose1: she has made no effort to move on and I don't see any signs of it happening.  

[JustSaying]

An option for you is to put it all off a bit with vague wording and see how it evolves. "And she looks forward to meeting you, too. Right now everyone is busy, but we'll keep an eye out for a good time." Non-committal but not dismissive either. Maybe it'll drop.

[tog]

This very much describes her.  She's got a perfectionist streak and since separation has ramped up her participation at the school and community stuff even though she left most of that stuff to me during our marriage.  She has been very concerned about appearances and wanting us to continue to appear as the perfect co-parenting divorcees.  I really appreciate your advice and your story gives me a little bit of hope that she may not flip.

And also your situation very much mirrors ours.  My gf definitely does not and will not be attending a lot of events for the kids and is comfortable in a role as a wonderful supportive grown up and not trying to assume a "mom" role.    

  

Yes, we have similar kinds of Moms then. Ours also wants to appear to be the perfect co-parent and has overly involved herself in the school. I go to as many events as I can, but not every one. I also sometimes go along in situations where we worry that she will start a fight with SO (private exchanges/meetings) because she will not behave in any way out of line if I am there.

We also discovered that once she knew I was reading the hostile, abusive emails she sent SO, they miraculously stopped.  

After knowing FSS12 for almost two years, I can talk to him openly about stuff that his mother does and I think that has been helpful in countering her alienation efforts (she may not target me, but she's worked overtime to convince the boy that his father is bad). This boy is hungry for appropriate female nurturing and even asked my SO recently if they could flip the custody schedule so he could see more of me.

He hasn't quite yet connected that his attachment to me is at least partially to get what he doesn't get from his mother, but he doesn't need to see that.

I think being as non-threatening as possible to mom's status and image is a good idea.  Your GF will need to have nerves of steel, though, to tolerate all the nonsense you are going to take from your X and the inevitable alienation efforts.

Hopefully she can become a positive influence for the kids.

[DreamGirl]

What's the new GF want?  

On most days, my husband's ex-wife thinks I'm alright. Some days not as much. She used to really like me, because she thought I could be her advocate in the ongoing battles between her and my husband. I tried to stay neutral, but that doesn't really work when you're married to one of the participants.

I've had coffee [all by myself] with the the heavily Borderline traited person in my life. As a mother, I completely understand wanting to know the other adult who partakes in the day to day life of my children. It's difficult when there is another person, who you didn't get to hand pick yourself, is participating in the upbringing of your little ones. I've met the soon to be stepmom of my kids, and she seems lovely. (Took a little while to get there, but it's going well)

I think it's OK that your ex wants to meet the new GF. There may be some ulterior motive I'm sure (she's does have the Borderline Personality Style) but I think there is a solution that will allow everyone to be happy.

I also have a very personal strict boundary in my own life when it comes to my stepchildren/children in that all discussions to anything major concerning the children (child support/parenting time/medical/etc) is done between the biological parents.  It's helped the relationship between my stepkids' Mama and myself ten fold. She still tries sometimes (looking for the advocate that I once offered up) but I just remind her and she remembers that she likes that boundary as much as I do.

I guess that's why I wonder what your GF wants to do. How can she stay true to herself?

My own stepkids' Mama and I can have coffee because she knows that I won't allow trash talk about my husband or discuss major decisions about the kiddos. Last sit down conversation I had with her was about her awful soon to be ex-husband. I just listened while she complained ~ not gonna lie, she is pretty interesting in all her endeavors ~ and wished her the best.

It's really nice that I'm not afraid of her like I once was. I've learned that I can hold to my own boundaries and co-existing in the same environment is possible. I'm pretty well versed in talking to her and that took a lot of trial and error [I've certainly triggered her to dysregulation before] but that's OK. I don't react and try to fix it like I once did. She's also taken my words and regurgitated them with her own Borderline twist back to my husband (its fascinating really); and it's certainly caused an argument or two. Again, I had to learn all these lessons the hard way, before I found a cool little corner of the internet that explained why she does what she does.

Again, I believe it's important that your GF gets a say as to what it is that she "wants". I think it's OK that she never have to deal with your ex in all her glory. BUT, perhaps she's up for the challenge and just needs to be schooled a little bit in dealing with her...like being able to say right off the bat "I'm not OK with us talking about shipjumper75, but I'd love to talk about something else like where you grew up, or your job, or whatever!"

I was at one point absolutely "No Contact" with the my stepkids' Mama, used to hide in the bedroom when it came time for her to pick up the girls (it was a much needed step to recover from a lot of wound inflicting done by the both of us stemming mostly from my own overstepping in boundaries as a Stepmom). It wasn't really "me" and it wasn't really necessary. We/I do much better in "Limited Contact" where she doesn't have my cell phone number, but I say hello to her whenver she picks up the kiddos. If she invited me for coffee, I'd certainly go as well. I don't worry about her boundary busting, because I'm confident in my own protection of them.  We've learned the dance steps so she doesn't expect me to "go there"... even when she asks.   ;p

I think your GF gets to lead the way in what their particular relationship gets to look like. Your ex probably is looking for some sort of payoff from the relationship (wants a peek into your life, looking for an advocate, wants to intimidate her, etc.) but it's also not absolutely abnormal for a Mom to want to meet an up and coming Stepmom to her kiddos. You've also already established your coparenting relationship along with the death of your romantic relationship and so it would make sense that she would be curious more then anything. She may function in a borderline way, but there is still that human aspect of her that leaves her just wanting to know about this new woman. I certainly wanted to know about my kids' new stepmom as well (and I also didn't handle it like a champion by the way).

So I think it's up to your lovely girlfriend to decide. You just get to help her in her decision to be properly equipped.  

~DreamGirl

[hithere]

JustSaying's advice sounds good.

I also don't think meeting is risk free but if you share time and custody 50% then they are bound to meet anyways, so why not have a little introduction, meet at a local coffee shop for 15 minutes without the kids (just in case).

[ellil]

I am divorced my from my ex-husband who is not BPD. He has a girlfriend and I've known her for 20+ years, and think she is a fine woman. Obviously, I do not need to meet her.

HOWEVER, if he had a serious girlfriend who would be around my daughter a lot and have any type of influence over her, yes, I'd want to meet her. I am also obviously not BPD.

M

[shipjumper75]

I think being as non-threatening as possible to mom's status and image is a good idea.  Your GF will need to have nerves of steel, though, to tolerate all the nonsense you are going to take from your X and the inevitable alienation efforts.

Hopefully she can become a positive influence for the kids.

i've seen her dismantle three car salesmen in a negotiation, it was a beautiful thing.  she handles herself in a way I am in complete awe of and has a particular knack for seeing past reality distortion.  nerves of steel... check.

@DreamGirl: she's nervous about having a one on one with her and i don't blame her.  she was comfortable with the idea of meeting with our co-parent counselor without me present.  i'm not a huge fan of the coffee idea as i think it opens too many doors for casual contact when i've clearly established at this point that all communication should be structured and absent of emotion but if a boundary were established that discussing me was off limits, that could be more tenable.  

i actually think they could have a fine time as my x is a pretty interesting person and can gab pretty easily.  if she didn't hate me quite so much and weren't alienating our kids, i'd hang out with her all the time.    but i also think there is that possibility of something terrible happening and our current dynamic, which is workable and livable, all goes to hell.  

i know eventually it will happen and as much as i know there's potential for bad, ethically, i feel like i should encourage some meeting here and i think my ex has a right to meet anyone that would be living with the kids.  i doubt it would happen, but i would very much like to have the opportunity to meet anyone moving in with the x, and though there never seems to be a quid pro quo in our relationship, I generally don't feel like I have the right to ask for something i'm not willing to give myself.   

[DreamGirl]

My husband's ex-wife loves to keep score.  

So if my husband doesn't adhere to a request, she certainly doesn't have to. She also has a fantastic memory of every slight/mishap/fault ever displayed by the hubs. "Remember that one time six years ago when you..."

For me, I actually like my husband's ex. She's really smart and has a wicked sense of humor. She just happens to be one hot mess. I had to learn to accept her in all her glory, and then learn to navigate the waters a little bit is all.

I think I really like the idea of meeting her with the parenting coordinator ~ especially since your ex is the one initiating it all. If it were me, I might word the request as to sound like she's benefiting somehow "I think it's great you want to meet her, I think everyone would feel most comfortable with the initial meeting being with the parenting coordinator who already knows you and who we both trust".

I think you're lucky in this shipjumper75, a lot of Mama's (Borderline or not) tend to struggle with new Stepmamas to their kiddos. She sounds open, even if there is some underlying circumstance (i.e. hoping for a mother of the year nomination), I say relish the moment.    

It may get rocky, but why taint the day with worry of what might happen.  You got this.  

[shipjumper75]

I feel extremely lucky DreamGirl, I know exactly how bad this could be and am fortunate that this is my major concern at the moment. 

[tog]

I have met and spoken to BPDmom on many occasions. SO, however, has not EVER been introduced to mom's SO, who lives with them. The one time he introduced himself and put out his hand, the SO said, "I'm good!" and refused to shake his hand (I will grant that mom and SO were in the middle of an argument at the time).

I wanted to meet her initially, I thought it was reasonable that she wanted to meet me. And I think it would be fine for you to sometime say, "X, this is new GF, new GF, this is X" in a public place/neutral setting.

I don't want any more of a relationship with her. I feel strongly about how she abuses my SO and his son and I am not someone who can pretend to like someone I don't, or overlook what I consider to be willful bad behavior. Just how I'm wired.

We recently had an incident where SO and I were out of town and when she couldn't reach him, she called me AND my parents. She has my number because it is in her son's phone, and they must have looked up my parents' number.  It was not an emergency. I asked him to make clear to her that she was never to do this again, and he did.

So yes, the GF should drive how the relationship goes.

[shipjumper75]

@tog: i currently block my main number and give my x a google voice number which goes directly to vm when i'm in custody of the kids.  we've agreed to post emergency numbers to ofw and my gf's posted number is a google voice number as well which goes directly to vm. to my knowledge the x hasn't tried to call it but i know your example is highly plausible.  there have been countless "emergencies" involving water bottles, reading glasses, socks, underwear, forms that are not due for months, and vegetables in their lunch that have required IMMEDIATE ATTENTION!  I could very easily see those incidents used as justification for inappropriate contact.   

[DreamGirl]

I could very easily see those incidents used as justification for inappropriate contact.   

So, she gets to decide who she gives her number to. I don't give my number to people if I think they are going to contact me inappropriately.

[tog]

Yes, this was a homework "emergency". It was actually SS12 who spoke to my parents, which is fine, because they think of him as family, but BPDmom left a message for them, and called my phone but didn't leave a message.

I gave SS12 my number figuring that it is in the phone book anyway and would be easy enough for her to get if she wanted it. This is the first time in 2 years that she has used it. It's interesting because SS used to text me a lot and now that's stopped, so I don't think he's allowed to use it himself.

We made clear that just as she would be upset if SO called her live-in SO or his son, we did not wish for her to involve me or my parents in parenting issues.

With her, that usually works, a strongly worded boundary.