How do you co-parent after divorce?

[Think About It....]

My soon to be ex wife has BPD.  We have a nine year old daughter together. I truly struggle with the horrible things she has done to me. Lying, multiple affairs, accusations, cyclical arguments, physical abuse, just to name a few. Currently we are still under the same roof. She has rekindled one of the affairs while I am still paying  for everything (she never worked in ten years). Did I mention by the way that she feels justified and that everything is my fault. We are currently working out joint custody. We are not on speaking terms. I just can't stand the sight of her. My question is this, how can I possibly get to a place where I can co-parent with her? I feel like if I do "give in" I will be letting her get away with all the crap she has pulled. Just completely despicable stuff. I am obviously still very angry. I read on the boards here that no contact is best but I dont how I can possibly do this since I am still tethered to her by my kid. Any advice anyone? Thanks

[Powerug]

My soon to be ex wife has BPD.  We have a nine year old daughter together. I truly struggle with the horrible things she has done to me. Lying, multiple affairs, accusations, cyclical arguments, physical abuse, just to name a few. Currently we are still under the same roof. She has rekindled one of the affairs while I am still paying  for everything (she never worked in ten years). Did I mention by the way that she feels justified and that everything is my fault. We are currently working out joint custody. We are not on speaking terms. I just can't stand the sight of her. My question is this, how can I possibly get to a place where I can co-parent with her? I feel like if I do "give in" I will be letting her get away with all the crap she has pulled. Just completely despicable stuff. I am obviously still very angry. I read on the boards here that no contact is best but I dont how I can possibly do this since I am still tethered to her by my kid. Any advice anyone? Thanks

[JustSaying]

Many of us do not co-parent; we parallel-parent. Huge difference and the only way some of us can make it work. A lot depend on the tendencies of the pwBPD, because there are many different types within the general classification. My X, for example, simply does not respond. I can email requests about a new school, summer camp, taxes, schedule...and will simply get no response. Other people encounter fights about every penny and shoelace. Some others might get more cooperation, but with anxiety, anger, substance abuse, depression, or other hallmarks of BPD.

For those with no response and those with constant battles, I don't have much faith in co-parenting. So instead of requests and questions, we tend to inform and assert. Not, "what do you think of D starting school at Central next year?" but rather, "Meeting with the guidance counselor at Central to learn about their offerings." Not, "Can D attend church Sunday?" but "D is planning to attend church Sunday and I'll bring her to your house immediately after." That make sense?

Also, know the rules inside and out. My X routinely has no clue about the details of the custody agreement. She'd seemingly make crap up and assert it as true. I'd have to respond with things like, "Page y, para z, "The visitation on non-school days shall start at..."

Also, I intentionally set things up so I'd pay for D's stuff directly, since I have majority time. Dealing with X on cost-sharing was not getting $7 back for school supplies or arguing over $100 for a birthday party.

Now, those of us who parallel parent don't say that out loud, because most Ts and judges don't want to hear it. I send emails and keep X fully informed and can and have shown that to both T and the court. But I've found that when I provide a plan, and keep the emotions out of it, and don't point fingers, and don't expect anything of X, I usually get no response, which is the best reaction of all.

I've managed this for nine months now without a single conversation with X.

[Matt]

Yeah, what JS said.

I separated from my wife nine days before Christmas 2006, after we both spent the night in jail - she had physically attacked me, then called 911 and accused me of assault.  Later she was diagnosed with BPD among other stuff.  I've tried various approaches - the "co-parenting" thing is what is often pushed at us, but JS is absolutely right that parallel parenting works better (for me anyway).

Where you're at, there are two things going on at the same time for you.

One is the legal aspect.  You say you are "working out joint custody";  does that mean you are hoping to negotiate it so you won't have to go through the legal process?  Do you have a lawyer and is there a written proposal from one of you to the other?  I think this legal aspect may deserve its own thread;  you may be hoping it will work out quickly and easily but if she has BPD that isn't likely.  (You might want to start that thread on the "Family Law" board here.)

The other aspect is the day-to-day challenge of parenting.  Actually, the name of this board - "Raising a child when one parent has BPD" - came about from a discussion of this very topic!  "Should we call it 'Co-parenting'?  Nah.  'Parallel parenting'?  Too narrow.  How about just 'Parenting'?"  We ended up with "Raising a child" because that's what we need to do - raise the child - not pretend that we are working closely with the other parent - focus on the child, not the other parent, and do your best to meet the child's needs.

How soon will you be in separate homes?  That will reduce your stress a lot, and allow you to make more decisions yourself;  I think you may find that it's easier then.  I found that lots of stuff that was difficult became very easy, and the whole tone of the home changed, from lots of stress and drama, to mellow and fun.

About "no contact":  You're right, it's not practical to literally have no contact.  But you can learn to minimize your interaction with the other party, and keep those interactions practical and relatively drama-free.  Use e-mail - no face-to-face or phone contact usually - and only communicate practical stuff about the kids, like drop-off and pick-up times, or the examples JS gives - no emotions, no talk about the past, no abstractions.  If the other party sends inappropriate stuff, ignore it and/or copy it to a responsible third party like her attorney or a court-appointed mediator.

It's distant, cold, and kind of sad, but in time it works better and better.  I've probably spoken to my ex maybe twice this year, by phone, very briefly both times, about very simple practical things at times when e-mail wasn't available.  It would be an exaggeration to say, "She's out of my life completely" but not by much - most days I don't think about her at all, and when I do, I'm really thinking about the kids and their needs.  It feels much better than dealing with her every day and constantly dreading it.

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[tog]

As someone whose SO is in the middle of a divorce/custody battle, I'd say you have a long time before you have to worry about co-parenting AFTER divorce. I would focus on finding a good lawyer, putting together your plan to exit and gathering any documentation you need.

No matter what she says now, if/when you or she file for divorce officially, she is likely to start dominating/alienating the child and trying to cut you out.

Not all pwBPD are alike, but a commonality (at least for most of us on this board) seems to be how they respond to the abandonment of separation/divorce with the efforts to make sure the child is all theirs and the other parent is marginalized or alienated entirely.

In my SO's case, he got out of their marriage in the way lots have to...he secretly put money and an apartment together and left with the child when she was on vacation. She was, of course, extremely upset and took him to court. Because she wanted to get back together, she agreed to joint custody and they did a reasonable facsimile of co-parenting for about a year.

Then it became obvious to her that he was serious about me and he filed for divorce. Since that time, she has made every effort to take over all parenting and push him out. She has worked at alienating their child and pressuring him to "choose her" in the divorce. It's been a very rough year, and it still isn't decided. She wants full custody despite the fact that the child wants 50/50, and is hanging on until the bitter end in hopes that she will get it because she feels entitled to it. In her mind, she is the "good" parent and my SO is the "bad" one.

Even if she initiates the divorce, she is likely to be upset with you when you move on.

So again, I'd focus on one step at a time. Get yourself out and get a good attorney.

[Powerug]

Thank you both for your advice. We are still in the same house but she will be moving soon. It's brutal to be under the same roof. She is willing to do joint custody if we can agree to a child support amount.
In think my issue resides in the fact that I am so hurt, shocked, appalled by her behavior that it is difficult for me to be vulnerable enough to extend the courtesy of communication. There seems to be absolutely no remorse. I think that hurts almost as much. She texts me that she wants to be amicable but her actions are contrary. I don't want to get sucked in so I just don't communicate except through my attorney.
It's hurting my child and it really bothers me. My 9 year old daughter is in counseling but she is very angry. The two of us have a joint session with the counselor tomorrow. That should help.
I know I need to try and stop making sense of something that doesn't make sense.
I will add that my ex did the same thing in her previous marriage with two kids. So there's  a pattern. Can I ever realistically expect her to get better? I don't see her recycling, she's in too much denial and has the support of her sister who is BPD also. She relies on her opinion more than anyone because she is the same. Everyone else disagrees with her but she won't listen to them anymore. Sorry to rant just many unresolved issues. HELP. Thanks

[Faded]

For myself our D was 7 month old when we split.
It was a terrible time emotionally for myself but D being that age i dont believe i had much choice in co-parenting.
When i say co-parenting, what i mean is... the ex made decisions without my full knowledge on many many aspects of our very young daughters life and i didnt make any fuss as such. Once or twice i sounded my opinion when she got D to start calling her boyfriend 'dad' i said my peace.
So for me for 12 year co-parenting was the ex making decisions and her maybe telling me after the event/decision.

Now for the last 10 months ive chosen to be a parallel parent, within that time our D has chosen to exclude her mum from a majority of her life as her mum went ballistic at us both verbally and emotionally.
I dont want any verbal or visual contact with the ex but did offer to set up an email for us both to exchange what ever details required about our D, the ex refused! she tried to a text 2 or 3 times since but ive deleted them and not responded.
So she has made herself unavailable as a parent so i am unable to even parallel parent as such, i have to make what ever decisions i choose and not tell the ex.
I dont wish it to be that way but i will NOT have face to face chatter as it will incur breadcrumbs/BS/stories of victimisation. I will NOT have text messages as a medium as i find it intrusive and inexpressive.

The one point of contact i offered for the sake of our D was refused, its now not my place to go chasing to give that information.


I guess in your case you have to take your childs feelings into consideration as well as your own for both of your own healths sake.
Then i guess you could take stock of what is available and what are you prepared to put into it for the sake of your child?

Even through the anger, if conversation is purely about child then im sure your anger could be adjusted for that moment for the sake of your child. You could be and act as difficult as your ex could. If your ex is difficult then rise above it somehow and look at the bigger picture for your daughter, healthier parents make for a healthier child. You cant choose how healthy your extb is but you can choose how healthy your life is as a person and a parent and also how healthy you make your childs life.


If/when you live apart from your extb you will see what is available from your ex as a co-parent, try and request you both inform each other of certain events that could be deemed important. that could be your child having a parents day/sports day at school, going to the doctors, after school clubs, medical treatment, holidays, hospitals, progress in various forms of childs life. The simple but important things.

If that is not a place you can be with your ex then depending how difficult she makes it for you is then dependant in whether you take legal action or not.

Luckily i never had to go through any courts or maybe i chose not to go that route knowing it would cause myself untold stress as well as my D untold stress.
Looking back im glad i didnt go through the courts, it was hard at first but i kept working hard to be with my daughter but instead of putting my energy into the legal system i chose to put my energy into being with my daughter.

Horses for courses as each instant will be different but the needs for the child will always be the same.

I hope you find a good medium for yourself, your child and the childs other parent so that you can all have some peace of mind and mostly so that the child is protected and loved and needs are met.

[JustSaying]

I am so hurt, shocked, appalled by her behavior that it is difficult for me to be vulnerable enough to extend the courtesy of communication

This will also make it difficult for you to make sound decisions. Are you a businessman? Do you interact with co-workers and negotiate with suppliers from a position of anger? I get the anger and hurt you feel. It's completely understandable and I wouldn't suggest you just get over it. But for your own sake and your child's sake, you'd be better off if you could separate it from the other issues...compartmentalize the emotions you're feeling so that you can address them one way (therapy, for example) and deal with custody and financial matters in another (businesslike).

Be real careful in this final time till she moves. It is indeed brutal and it's a time when many people have encountered both real and false allegations of domestic violence and few things can impact a divorce more than that. Protect yourself.

My 9 year old daughter is in counseling but she is very angry.

What is the focus of her anger? My D was 13 at the time and her anger was focused on her mom's behaviors toward her. She was relieved about the divorce itself.

So there's a pattern. Can I ever realistically expect her to get better?

There's nothing that points toward change, is there? Is she aware of her behaviors? Is she attempting change? Does she have anyone, such as a therapist, giving her appropriate advice and treatment for addressing personality disorders?

[Matt]

I was married more than 10 years.  D10 and S8 when we separated (after my wife became violent and made false accusations), now 13 and 15, plus stepkids 17 and 29 when we separated.

The younger two are doing very well now, five years later - both getting very good grades in a very good school, doing other activities, plenty of friends, healthy and happy.  It's taken a lot of work and a lot of learning on my part, and it's now how I wish things were, but separation and divorce do not have to make things worse for the kids;  I'm pretty sure my kids are better off than if we had stayed together.

When we were together they had no stable, happy home.  There was always stress and conflict.  They did not see me as I normally am, but only under constant attack.  I usually handled the abuse well but at times it got me down and I either hid or lashed back.  I'm only human.

Now I can provide a normal, relatively chaos-free home for them.  I wish they were here all the time - legally I have 50/50 but they're here much more than that, for a number of reasons, mostly because my ex chooses that.  Recently, for example, school was cancelled because of snow, and they were supposed to be at her place that week, but she said they should stay with me (I work at home) because I have internet access.  I said fine so they stayed with me that day, even though they had been with me for 10 straight days at that point.  That kind of stuff happens a lot - many little reasons they stay more with me - so my ex only has them as much as she feels capable of, and she manages that OK - alone most of the time, her stress is lower, and she doesn't act out like she did when we all lived together.

Look to provide a "new normal" as soon as possible - a stable situation, different from before but consistent from day to day.  The kids will react badly at first, but within a short time they may do fine.  Counseling for them is also probably a good idea.

[shipjumper75]

One, it sounds like your current living situation is not sustainable and I'd be suspect of her claim that she is moving soon.  If it is possible, I would just move out on your own if you are at all capable of it.  Financially, this is likely to be extremely difficult on you but it will be worth it to be out of the crazy.  

Two, don't agree to anything before you talk to a lawyer.  If you think you can't afford to have one, you absolutely can't afford NOT to have one.  I was giving my ubBPDx 60% of my salary for five months because of the guilt I felt over leaving and it did nothing to alleviate her sense of entitlement to everything I had.  Go by the book and do baseline child support.  There are formulas to figure it out based on your salaries.  You should not feel guilty and give up things you've earned just to be free of her.  

The most important advice as far as co-parenting I've gotten is to just be as robotic as possible in relation to your stbx.  Make all communications absent of emotion and in writing.  Whatever you do, she's going to be furious but there's a lot of power in knowing that whatever you do, she's going to be furious.  Put all your positive emotion into the kids and give her none of yours, no anger and no love.  She is a pain in the ass business partner to you now.  

[Matt]

Great thoughts from SJ...

Two, don't agree to anything before you talk to a lawyer.  If you think you can't afford to have one, you absolutely can't afford NOT to have one.  I was giving my ubBPDx 60% of my salary for five months because of the guilt I felt over leaving and it did nothing to alleviate her sense of entitlement to everything I had.  Go by the book and do baseline child support.  There are formulas to figure it out based on your salaries.  You should not feel guilty and give up things you've earned just to be free of her.  

This is a very distinct pattern here - I'll speak of men whose wives have BPD for the moment - we almost always give them more $ than we should, when we separate.

Most states have guidelines which are available online (though maybe not easy to find or interpret).  It will be super-helpful to find those guidelines, and use them to decide what to do.  Later, when you are challenged, you can show your math:  "I found the court's guidelines and did the math, and I've been giving her the amount indicated even though there hasn't been a court order in place yet."  You'll look responsible and fair, and you'll probably save yourself a lot of money compared with how most of us handled this - based on guesses and guilt.

And don't think that giving her more than you should will be appreciated or reciprocated.  Later, it will be used against you:  "Mr. Jumper, you have been providing your wife with $X in support for all these months while the case was pending, and that has been working.  Why do you insist on lowering it now?"  It will be seen as a precedent and the burden will be on you to say why it should be changed, and no answer you give will be accepted by the other side.

[shipjumper75]

And don't think that giving her more than you should will be appreciated or reciprocated.  Later, it will be used against you:  "Mr. Jumper, you have been providing your wife with $X in support for all these months while the case was pending, and that has been working.  Why do you insist on lowering it now?"  It will be seen as a precedent and the burden will be on you to say why it should be changed, and no answer you give will be accepted by the other side.

This is absolutely true.  You must drop every sense of guilt.  The courts, more than anything, don't want to be bothered with a lot of hassle and will almost always take the path of least resistance and keep things status quo unless there is compelling reason to make a change.  It's very hard to prove those compelling reasons especially against a BPDx who is likely to make an excellent witness for the short period you are allotted in a court.

You should make all your initial agreements, financial and custodial, based on what you are entitled to and what is legal, not what you think your ex will agree to and what would be easiest.  There are times to let things slide a little to avoid conflict.  This isn't one.  Treat your kids well, go by the book on the legal stuff and you will come out of this a better parent and a stronger person.

Also, just a heads up.  This is going to suck.  You've avoided it because it's going to suck and it's going to.  But your day to day will be better and eventually, it will suck much less.    Be firm with her immediately when you see signs of alienation.  Don't start arguments but let her know if you think her behavior is inappropriate.  I was focused very much on my own hell during that early time of separation and was distracted to the point where it was difficult to protect my children from her attempts to alienate them from me.  Try to get as much time with them as you can.  Do not accept anything less than 50/50 from the start as it will be difficult to change that later. 

[soren]

Good thread as I am going through divorce and have a d8 and s21mos.  Wife was divorced before me and a kid as well.  I did see her interact with her ex--they worked, side by side, livd in sam bldg, had dinner together sometimes with kids, etc.  She gace up primary custody to ex but they split time 50-50 until she took him to court after he was remarried to change the arrangement.  After a year, lots of bills, arguing she finally settled friday at 5 pm--just before the monday court date.  We actuallt lost a little bit if time, but other than that, thing stayed the same.  Anyway, she and her ex were very amicable--i met him and had few drinks with him. 

Now to my story--im not too worried about parenting, etc because I sae her with him and she wants ame with me but she wanst to be primary custody.  My biggest worry is when shes in another relationship.  I know she will be fighting in front of my kids and that scares the hell out of me.  Has anyone else had issues with ex BPD and new relationship and the troubles in front of yr kids? how do you handle it?

Thanks,

[Powerug]

The advice is much appreciated. Just saying, thanks you are correct, I am a business man and this is a business deal. Although, I am never this involved emotionally in business deals. LOL.

My nine year od has been biting my ex wife lately. She knows that her Mom was the one who filed. My daughter and I have a counseling session together tomorrow so it should help.

As far as change. You cannot change what you fail to recognize. In my case things lay dormant for a time period and then the outburst is severe. The resentment that is bottled up turns to rage and then revenge in the worst possible manners. You really don't see it coming.

Out therapist is reluctant to label her BPD for lots of reasons. She prefers to slowly peel back the onion to get to the core. It is time consuming and difficult because you can't get too far without them bailing. My T told me that in her ten years of practice she has never met someone as covert as my Ex. Change? Doubt it

As far as current communication I have ceased to participate. Too many times I have said one thing and it is completly interpreted wrong. Twisted if you will.

She does text me to say she wants to be amicable but all her behaviors are to the contrary. It's push/pull. I will no longer be a part of it. I cant trust her.

Question for the board.

I am only communicating through my lawyer. I answer on occasional text from her(she tries to be all nice). She has tried to speak to me . I will not speak to her. Does this just confirm to her painting me black? Does this just keep me as the bad object?  Am I doing the right thing ?

Thanks for all your help and responses. They do help a lot!

[Matt]

"Our therapist" - huge red flag!  You (Powerug) need a therapist or counselor, and your daughter needs one;  and maybe you and your daughter meeting together with her therapist will help too.

But "our" meaning "Powerug and Mrs. Powerug" - I hope you are not employing one therapist to help you and also to help your wife.  That would be disastrous.  You need to talk confidentially with your therapist, and she needs to focus on you.  No therapist can help someone through someone else.  Your wife needs to get her own therapist, and you need to let that happen (or more likely not happen), and not let it interfere with your own progress (or your daughter's).

Communication:  Right now you are right to communicate everything related to the divorce, legal and $ issues, through your attorney.

Stuff related to your daughter, I would suggest e-mail, cc:ing your attorney.  The reasons are, to save $ (you can tell your lawyer you are copying her only for information and a paper trail, and she should not put time in, unless it is something big) and to show the court a degree of cooperation.

But your e-mails to and from your wife should only be about practical matters relating to your daughter - not legal or $ matters, and no emotions.  Nothing about the relationship, or the past.  If she includes anything inappropriate in her e-mails, ignore that and only respond to the practical matters, like who will pick up and drop off D when and where.  That should mean very little communication, and very simple - we usually suggest 3 sentences per e-mail max.

Also, be prepared to answer why you are using this method, without diagnosing her.  You can say, "My therapist advised me to minimize direct contact because of my wife's behavior patterns" or something like that, if it's true.  Or you can say, "This seems to work best.  Since I've gone to e-mail only, the conflict is less."  Some simple, true answer as to how your approach is in D's best interests.

[JustSaying]

I am only communicating through my lawyer. I answer on occasional text from her(she tries to be all nice). She has tried to speak to me . I will not speak to her. Does this just confirm to her painting me black? Does this just keep me as the bad object?  Am I doing the right thing ?

Perhaps think long term...how would you anticipate communicating with her 6 months from now, a year from now, 8 years from now? Through your lawyer?

For matters related to custody/property, I only interacted through the attorney.

For stuff involving D's schedule and activities, I only used email and stuck to one topic, 3-5 sentences, telling what I was doing or she needed to be informed of. Never asking a question, be/c that would give her the power to not respond as a way to mess with me.

I never texted her. If she texted I either ignored it or sent an email according to the prior guidelines.

Keeps everything documented. Doesn't matter what she thinks of it or how she perceives you. Not like she can go before a judge and complain that you 'only' email and aren't willing to fight with her.

[beyondbelief]

You are getting some good advise.  I'll add a couple of points.

As JS notes it is usually better to inform rather than ask.  I got screamed at for 15 minutes because I asked if X would like me to buy school pictures and give X some for free.     I was pretty well forced to ask as she had the order form and I didn't.

You DO NOT have to respond to anything.  This includes conversations, texts, emails, or anything else.  Sometimes people get caught up in "proving" their stbx's statements to be false.  From a legal standpoint not responding has absolutely NO meaning.  Do your proving in court.  I've never been able to prove anything to X and my attempts have almost always led to an escalation of the nasties.

[Powerug]

Great advice and thanks. Our therapist was referring to the one we used to go to together. So now it is just mine and my daughters therapist.

Quick question. Is not speaking to her just reinforcing me as the bad object? I am currently only communicating through my attorney.

Thanks

[Matt]

Quick question. Is not speaking to her just reinforcing me as the bad object? I am currently only communicating through my attorney.

I think it depends largely on how you go about it.

If you just cut off communication completely, or only communicate through your lawyer, and fail to explain it well, at the right time, you could be seen as acting out of anger or spite.

But if you moderate your actions - communicate legal and $ issues through your attorney, and child-related issues directly by e-mail, in very appropriate, businesslike ways - and if you are able to communicate why you are acting like this - to minimize conflict and make things work better for your daughter - then it can lift you up in the eyes of others - help them see you as a problem-solver and a practical person with good judgment.

Don't fall into the trap of "nice vs. mean" - "nice" meaning "pretend nothing is wrong" and "mean" meaning "punish the other party".  Those are not your only choices.

It would be foolish to pretend there is no problem and go back to old ways of communicating.

It would also be impractical to take an extreme view, that you are perfect and the other party is evil, so you can't communicate with her.

Take a practical approach that you believe is best for your daughter:  "To minimize conflict and make sure we get to a good settlement as soon as possible, I'm communicating legal and financial issues through my attorney.  Daily issues about Daughter I'm communicating by e-mail, so they are clear and well-documented.  That seems to be working better than when we were talking face to face or by phone;  then there was lots of conflict and misunderstanding but now there's less of that, which I think is better for Daughter."

[hell0kitty]

Consider getting on Our Family Wizard ASAP
http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/ofw/index.cfm/about-us/testimonials/?gclid=CKzbl8CHja8CFSMHRQodTBXzyQ

We are JUST getting the BPD to sign up, but how I wish we had had it for the last year.  It keeps track of everything, and it even has a "tone detector" to help prevent you from saying anything that will get used against you later.  It is a great tool to parallel parent with a BPD without ever having to have direct contact with them.  If she is as nuts as ours has been, in no time, she could write your whole custody case for you and it will be all saved in the Wizard!

[arbutus]

Hi There, I'm an adult child of a uBPDm.

My parents married very young and my parents split when sis and I were in our early teens.

It was horrible on us because my dad went NC and so my sister and I had to be the "go between" for them. Whatever you do, don't put your kids in this role!

I can understand now why my dad did not want to talk to my mom and neither wanted to afford a lawyer (my mom would be unreasonable anyway or manipulate). But whatever you do (I have no clue) don't employ children as communicators instead.

Horrible experiences regarding having to mediate the parents over child support, braces, band trips, dentists, visits, etc etc... Messenger was definitely shot... by mom, dad, stepmom.