The "compassion" stage of loss

[Think About It...]

We are probably all familiar with the Kubler-Ross model of the Five Stages of Grieving/Loss.   It occurred to me that one of these stages might contain what I'd call a little "sub-stage" which involves acknowledging and grieving not the loss of the relationship itself, but rather the fact that they have an *incurable disorder*.

Example:  I have now dated two PD persons.  The first was a malignant NPD who was textbook.  But he was also very bright, and seemed to have some inkling that he was disordered.   Once in a while, he would make a few intelligent, self-aware comments here and there that led me to believe he had probably done some reading and was probably piecing together that he had serious issues.  But then I think his disordered thoughts  would take over and obscure any potential for his own enlightment.   No progress would ever be possible with him, close as he might come sometimes.   

In contrast, the second guy (a BPD) is largely oblivious to his problems.   Still, occassionally he too would pipe up and say something like "I know I have issues"; however he is not the self-seeking sort and his BPD need to please others keeps him constantly focused on them, not himself.  So I'm sure he will live out the rest of his life without any progress whatsoever.

Both of these men were sweet, kind-hearted men, who -- minus their incurable disorders -- would have a lot to offer. 

So back to this idea of the "compassion" stage of grieving:  I know after the break-ups with each of them, (and having read about their respective disorders) I went through a day or two where I was deeply moved and saddened by the fact that they will live out the rest of their lives repeating these tragic patterns, devoid of the ability to have truly loving, connected relationships.   Neither of them "caused" their predicament (both had very obviously abusive/neglectful upbringings), but they were going to suffer in semi-oblivion for the rest of their lives.   For both exPDs I actually remember sobbing out of sadness with this realization.

Anyone else?

[HowPredictable]

We are probably all familiar with the Kubler-Ross model of the Five Stages of Grieving/Loss.   It occurred to me that one of these stages might contain what I'd call a little "sub-stage" which involves acknowledging and grieving not the loss of the relationship itself, but rather the fact that they have an *incurable disorder*.

Example:  I have now dated two PD persons.  The first was a malignant NPD who was textbook.  But he was also very bright, and seemed to have some inkling that he was disordered.   Once in a while, he would make a few intelligent, self-aware comments here and there that led me to believe he had probably done some reading and was probably piecing together that he had serious issues.  But then I think his disordered thoughts  would take over and obscure any potential for his own enlightment.   No progress would ever be possible with him, close as he might come sometimes.   

In contrast, the second guy (a BPD) is largely oblivious to his problems.   Still, occassionally he too would pipe up and say something like "I know I have issues"; however he is not the self-seeking sort and his BPD need to please others keeps him constantly focused on them, not himself.  So I'm sure he will live out the rest of his life without any progress whatsoever.

Both of these men were sweet, kind-hearted men, who -- minus their incurable disorders -- would have a lot to offer. 

So back to this idea of the "compassion" stage of grieving:  I know after the break-ups with each of them, (and having read about their respective disorders) I went through a day or two where I was deeply moved and saddened by the fact that they will live out the rest of their lives repeating these tragic patterns, devoid of the ability to have truly loving, connected relationships.   Neither of them "caused" their predicament (both had very obviously abusive/neglectful upbringings), but they were going to suffer in semi-oblivion for the rest of their lives.   For both exPDs I actually remember sobbing out of sadness with this realization.

Anyone else?

[ellil]

In the beginning, I couldn't even get angry because the compassion and worry for my exBPD was so intense. Then I got angry and only sporadically felt any compassion for him (and I liked it that way too).

Now, nearly six months out, I am rarely angry, and back to feeling compassion for him. He used to always ask me what I loved about him and I told him his kind heart, his overly kind heart. I recognize that kind heart is born out of a severe emotional / mental issue, but nonetheless...

I can honestly say I've never felt this level of compassion or empathy for another individual, which is directly tied in to my own issue(s). It's like our illnesses feed off of each other.

My ex is brilliant, charming, chivalrous, gorgeous, and all that stuff that goes with BPD such as attentive, great lover, nurturing...and I can't help but feel even worse for someone with all of the above to have to go through life with this major block to happiness. I could cry if I thought about it long enough, so I don't

M

[GP44]

I can relate. I think the hardest part of getting resolution is that I cycle back and forth between anger and contempt at the way I was treated, and understanding that it comes not from a place of malice or spite but blindness, fear and confusion. And when I am in the latter frame of mind, there is the part of me that wishes I could help her. But then I realize that there is nothing I can do to help her, and she wouldn't want my "help." How would you feel if you were told that your reasons for instigating a breakup were because of deep-seated emotional problems? You would perceive it as sour grapes and ego preservation on the part of the dumpee.

It is very sad. There is a lot of good in my ex at her core. I think it would be easier to get over this if I could just throw up my hands and say "You know what, she's just a very bad person." But she's not. She is still human. She was just well enough to do all of the things that a girlfriend and significant other is supposed to do on a day to day basis, but she is also sick enough to sabotage the relationship the way that she did. It is a paradox: they are both the seekers and destroyers of their own happiness, and they usually end up sabotaging the very thing they claim to want.

[Applehead]

I agree, bc we care about them and love them so it's natural to grieve them having a pretty much incurable disorder and there's nothing we could do to make them better.  Even if they wanted to get better with DBT it still may not help or only a little after years or treatment.  You just have to leave it in Gods hands and pray for them and for your own sanity and well being you have to cut them out of your life or you'll drowned too and probably alone bc they'll leave you and most likely smear you.     

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[dah1029]

I have to say that I'm at the point where I find my exBPDbf's self-destruction alarming and profoundly sad to me.  I find the drinking, the massive weight gain, the depression, so sad.  How can I be angry at a man that's so pathetic appearing?  He's definately a waif.  But he doesn't play on me at all with the behaviors.  He actually stays silent.  He's insinuated that he knows he's "not right".  But refuses counseling, refuses to stay on his anti-depressants, and I have no idea if he's still drinking.  I do know that he's morbidly obese-- must be at least 340 lbs at 5'8". When I last saw him 3 weeks ago, what alarmed me is that he looked like a heart attack or stroke waiting to happen.  It's odd how I immediately lost anger and just felt great saddness over his self-destruction.  He's put on about 70+ lbs since I met him over 2 years ago.

For the sake of myself, I'm trying to keep the mindset that I need to leave him to be who he needs to be.  He doesn't want my presence or interaction.  It only annoys him .  So I've been truly NC for 20 days after 6 mos of trying to periodically intervene on what I view as his slow demise.  I feel sad that I have given up, but he doesn't want my help.  And I can't handle all the rejection anymore.  It truly just breaks my heart to see him. 

[HowPredictable]

Some interesting points in the replies; thanks.    One of the minor breakthroughs I've had in my understanding of my own role in this whole relationship debacle, was how my Type A/Control Freak urges played into my initial unwillingness to accept that these ExPDs cannot be changed... not by me, probably not even on their own.

I'm a "can do"/take-no-prisoners kind of woman, very accomplished in my profession, hardworking and achievement-oriented.   For the longest while I'll admit that I saw the problem of BPD as one that I could help him solve.  As my thinking went, all that was needed was information, and enlightenment, and some hard work on his part, and mine.  It was a puzzle, and one that I was prepared to roll up my sleeves and help him solve, whether he wanted me to, or not.

I think the compassion stage -- where I remember literally sobbing at the tragedy and permanence of it all -- was when I finally let go of the misguided notion that things could ever change, whether with my help or otherwise.

[refuge]

I'm not an emotional soft kinda guy, but when I really came to understand what it was I had been dealing with it made the experience 10X worse. Much of my sadness is from realizing that this girl told me her story, using indirect language.

i think back to moments watching her play in the water on the beach,at the time thinking she seems just like a little girl running into the water.. it kills me. We went to st augastine one day, I hurt her feelings that night. Wasn't intentional. The next day she wanted to go to the "fountain of Youth", at the time i couldn't understand why she always wanted to do kids stuff. Now I know. I can still see her walking into the crowd of kids that day.

I hurt her, and she feared growing old. That day she really thought going to the fountain of youth  would save her.

[dah1029]

How Predictable--  Being a nurse, I'm a Miss Fix-It too.  I read everything there was to read on the internet.  I talked to so many people.  Bought about 8+ books on various subjects.  Made the MD appt to get him to see his doc for the depression.  Wanted to make the counselor appt but he said he would do it--  he never did.  Offered to go to the counseling appt with him or just drive and sit in the parking lot.  Can we say "codependency?".  Followed up periodically with him, usually got pushed away.  I tried to get his sisters involved, they never responded to 3 emails I sent them.  I was successful in getting 2 of his friends involved.  They seemed to help.  I'm not sure if they remained involved.  This was all last fall.  In November,  I walked into our local diner to see him sitting there with another woman having breakfast. 

After not seeing him since November, I saw him again 3 wks ago at the same diner with the same woman.  I decided enough was enough.  He looks awful physically.  Looks miserable if I go by the expression on his face.  It left me wondering why he's reached out to me a few times in the past months, when he's obviously still with his new woman?  Most likely because I know alot of his secrets that he hasn't shared with her.  But I can't be his therapist.  I've removed myself for my sanity.  I will move mountains to help someone, but not when they disregard my feelings.  If they reach out to me, and then slap me when I respond, I need to walk away.  I'm sad for him but it's his choice to not get help. 

[NevestNA]

I have a lot of compassion for him, and also just sat here crying when I finally accepted that this was a severely debilitating condition he's in. I still stop short of "naming" the condition... I continue to question it all. What became clear is that he's not happy, is disordered in some way, and that I can't help any of it.

I alternate those feelings with feelings of hurt. The hurt usually comes when I continue to put the "normal guy" lens on the glasses and none of it makes any sense. Those days are becoming less and less now. The acceptance has helped tremendously. I'm compassionate, but I recognize there's nothing I can do or that anyone else can do unless he seeks help for himself.

A few months ago, he called a close friend of mine to "see how Nevest is doing". She tells me he was distraught, over-the-top emotional, crying, wailing... the whole works. She says she was alarmed and gently suggested he talk to a counselor to help him with the emotions. At that moment, the hysterics iced over into an icy reserve; she says she never experienced anything like the sudden shift in emotion from someone ever before. He informed her that he was perfectly fine, is very strong, and can manage without any help thanks. Then he ended the call.

She was very unsettled by the encounter, and from that point urged me to never ever speak to him again. She called him, in layman's terms, "F"ed up... but it's the same thing. Use any letters you like to describe his behavior, but the implications are the same regardless: This is emotional disorder of some kind and deserving of compassion.

I'm hurt, yes. But I hurt for him too... what a terrible way to exist.

[dah1029]

I agree Nevest.  Anytime I tried to have a very "gentle" conversation with him about getting some intervention, the same thing happened to me.  He'd do that weird open eyed look at me, change his facial features to look like he didn't know what I was talking about, and said he was "FINE".  I'm sick of that word.  I'd say no you're not fine.  Stop telling people you are.  I wish mine would get admitted somewhere but he would never agree to that.  He has too much pride eventhough he's miserable.  He thinks moving to Florida is the answer.  Says he needs more sun.  I see it worsening down there as he leaves all his support people that are concerned about him.

[HowPredictable]

He thinks moving to Florida is the answer.  Says he needs more sun. 

Dah1029, it's so funny you mention this, because my exBPD was always talking about moving to Florida (or California, or Vegas or anywhere but where he actually was).   In his addled mind, all of his problems stemmed from the city he lived in, and all of his problems would be solved by moving somewhere else.

Little does he know that his problems originate from within, and will follow him everywhere he goes.  Sad.

[teri]

I often feel very emotional about my husband's condition as well. Sometimes I just break down and cry. However, I also am feeling sad for myself having gone through all this. I'm sorry for him, but I deserve to be happy too.

[dah1029]

It's sad that they think changing location will solve all their inner turmoil.  My fear is that he'll get down to Florida, the change is a big stressor, he'll have no supports, his angst will worsen, and he'll be in a worse state than he already is in.  Just moving to me is stressful.  Then finding a new job.  I feel that he's living beyond his means as a semi-retired person at 51 with no education.  He doesn't have the stamina to even work full time anymore.  And his profession does not allow him to change states.  He's blown through so much money in the past 2 1/2 yrs.  He must have nothing left.  I gave him $3000 a few weeks ago so he could pay his taxes--  I owed him money for projects he did and financed for me around my house when we were together. 

I'm maintaining NC right now but I do have to admit to worrying about his choices.  I was watching that show "Intervention".  It reminds me of the turmoil that we go through trying to get our loved ones to get help.  And I really have no say in my ex--  he's an exbf and he's moved onto dating someone new.  So I truly have no right to interfere.  He doesn't ask me to help him so I have stepped back.  But then I feel the guilt of abandonment for a man in need who was very good to me during the 2 years we dated when I was in need.  It seems that he enjoyed me more when I was in need.  As I became stronger financially and after a health crisis, he seemed to lose his identity as my caretaker and things went downhill.  I thought our R/S would strengthen as I wasn't such a burden.  But it seemed to crumble as he lost his identity. 

[ellil]

"It seems that he enjoyed me more when I was in need."

I don't want to take this off topic, but this is a HUGE reminder for me. I remember at least three times when I had reached my breaking point on a few things unrelated to my exBPDbf where he remarked something to the effect of me showing him my weaknesses and being distressed made him love me more! And this, from a man although highly (overly) educated, who was unemployed, living in the same clothes over and over, and to me, almost broken.

He loved me more if I were vulnerable or suffering and he could ride in the knight in shining armor. Yet he professed to be always wanting an independent, self sufficient woman.

I think not.

M

[NevestNA]

He thinks moving to Florida is the answer. 

Maybe this should be one of the items on the lists of traits. Count my ex as another one wanting to move to Florida.

It's a great state and all, but really?

[dah1029]

I believe the sun does help with depression.  But it's not the cure all.  My ex thinks he'll be more active down there.  Really?  Because last summer he spent it in his living room , on the couch, with the blinds drawn.  Tired, headachey, think I have a virus, etc.   I live on a lake-- I would say, it's beautiful out come on lets sit outside in the sun and get some air.  Nope, he needed a nap.  So I don't think much will change in Florida.  I tried to get him walking daily with me last summer--  nope.  He's a man that won't do the emotional work that he needs to do to improve himself.  He just thinks moving will miraculously change him. 

[HowPredictable]

But then I feel the guilt of abandonment for a man in need who was very good to me during the 2 years we dated when I was in need. 

Ahh.   This triggers my abandonment guilt.  Mine was so good to me for 3 years; in true BPD fashion he was everything I needed after the end of another very long-term relationship.   He made me feel attractive, desirable, and supported me to help me deal with the fallout of that other relationship ending.

Part of me still wants to repay that "debt" by helping him see and recover from his BPD.  But first of all, I know that I cannot help him (and I doubt he can even help himself).  Secondly, I know that all that help and assistance and support that he gave me was motivated by his OWN needs driven by the disorder.   I don't mean to diminish his efforts (or the positive effect they had on me), but I do want to see them for what they really were.   It's hard to accept this logically, but I have to conclude that I don't owe him anything in return because he was mirroring me and "being there for me" for his own good.

[dah1029]

You're right.  Because as I said above, I think mine enjoyed me more when I was dependent on his help and needed him.  And that was dysfunctional to me because I felt indebted to him and powerless to enforce boundaries with a man that did so much for me.  But I think he liked it better that way because he had control in my life.  It's healthier to be equally strong partners and that's what I strived for and was the last 6 mos of the R/S, but that's when he went downhill and lost interest.