D15's tantrum.

[Think About It...]

I was planning to text her or call her after her meet, but she beat me to the punch and called last night.  She beat her previous best by quite a bit (almost 30 seconds, which is a lot for the mile).  We live in a mountain town, and the race was at an elevation a mile lower than ours, which may have helped a lot - training at a high elevation and then racing at a lower one.

But the main thing was that she was excited and called me and that went very well - nothing more about what she had been upset about.

I'm not surprised by that - she always gets over it when she's upset - she's resilient and forgiving.

I'll still have this talk with her though - the issues are still real.  I'm kind of glad S13 won't be home til tomorrow, so there will be time for D15 and me to talk.

[Matt]

I was planning to text her or call her after her meet, but she beat me to the punch and called last night.  She beat her previous best by quite a bit (almost 30 seconds, which is a lot for the mile).  We live in a mountain town, and the race was at an elevation a mile lower than ours, which may have helped a lot - training at a high elevation and then racing at a lower one.

But the main thing was that she was excited and called me and that went very well - nothing more about what she had been upset about.

I'm not surprised by that - she always gets over it when she's upset - she's resilient and forgiving.

I'll still have this talk with her though - the issues are still real.  I'm kind of glad S13 won't be home til tomorrow, so there will be time for D15 and me to talk.

[Rise]

Just make sure you aren't projecting your own issues onto your daughter. I'm not shocked she's over it either. She's a teenager. They do these things. They get upset, they deal with their emotions, and they move on. I know it's tough, but try and remember what it's like. Think back on your behavior. You didn't once or twice lash out at your parents? You never said anything you didn't mean? You never told your parents "You never...!", or "You don't love me!"? When you are that age, everything seems like it's the end of the world. I know she's growing up fast, but she not an adult. Not yet. It's part of what makes dealing with teenagers so difficult. They are grown up in so many ways, its all too easy to forget that in many, many ways, they are still children.

And clearly I don't know the whole story of how she's acting, but from everything I can gather from your posts, she seems like she's a pretty good kid. Try and keep that in mind.

Good luck.

[Matt]

Well I grew up in the Midwest, on a farm, and no, I probably never threw a fit like that or said anything like that to my parents after I was about six.

And I don't remember my father ever saying he loved me, but I knew he did, because of his actions, and it never bothered me that he didn't say it - it probably never occurred to me til I was an adult.  It was a different time and place - much more reserved.

I don't think it's a bad thing for her to express her emotions - in fact I think it's a good thing and I encourage it.  She is a very good kid, for sure.  I want to focus on that specific behavior - throwing a fit when she doesn't get what she wants, and saying things that aren't fair or helpful, rather than looking for solutions.

Of my four kids, it's remarkable how alike two of them are - D15 and her big brother - and how alike the others are - S13 and SS22.  D15 and SS34 have strong feelings and express them, are very appreciative, easily hurt but also strong and resilient.  The other two are aloof, intellectual, and almost never express their feelings.  I try not to expect any of them to be different than they are, but I want to talk to her about this specific behavior and make sure she is able to deal with it pretty soon, before it becomes a problem, in relationships and in her ability to deal with life...

(And I just don't want to have to deal with these fits anymore.)

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[doryswimsagain]

Just make sure you aren't projecting your own issues onto your daughter.

Doh! This is not my thread, but that one stung. I admittedly struggle wih this I think.  It is something we are all likely guilty of here.  I have way less tolerance for childlike behavior, and often confuse healthy child behavior with that that came from X. 

BUT -- unacceptable is unacceptable. At any age. And like you, Matt, I have had enough We all have different tolerances for things. Some parents are sticklers on keeping a clean house. I don't know that it is altogether bad to be a stickler on tantrums. As long as every now and again, we throw them a bone.

Our job is simply made more difficult because we have to distinguish it as bad even though out kids see a parent figure displaying it.  My close friends and family have strong opinions on how I should address things like this with Ds.  They favor the more direct comparison approach and think I should tell kids what I really think of X sometimes. For now, I have to stick with the T's advice, as she is the objective 3rd party.

But I truly value every shred of input on this site. Helps to see that people do get through ok, regardless of the method. I would be absolutely lost without all of you!

[Matt]

Well it went pretty well.  S13 wasn't home yet so I took D15 to a late breakfast - we both were tired and slept in - and we had a good talk.

She is still kind of upset and talked quite a bit about why, but she was respectful and fair.  I've been expecting a lot of her and I thought it was going well;  she takes pride in "taking care of S13 and Dad".  But she sees it as sometimes too much.

We figured out that we can do better by doing more preparation over the weekend, and keeping more of some stuff so we won't have to go to the store to much during the week or run out of things.

I also need to double-check more and make sure she is OK and knows I'm paying attention.  I assume she'll let me know if she has a problem, but that's not right - she tends not to say anything til she's really upset.

I touched briefly on problems others in the family have had but didn't dwell on it.  I think she understood because she remembers specific things that have happened.

I think one of the reasons she's struggling a little - she talked around this but didn't quite say it - is that she's being treated very differently by her mom and me.  She said her mom fixes all the meals and does all the shopping - she doesn't expect the kids to help.  So D15 doesn't quite know what's right - she likes being treated more like a grown-up when she's with me but it may be two extremes when she's really somewhere in the middle.

[doryswimsagain]

Are there any rules at Mom's house? Structure. (silly questions probably). Does she overindulge them? Was she overindulged as a kid? Just trying to get the big picture...

[argyle]

Dunno.  This reminded me a bit of BPDw.  When she was a teenager - she left her family and went to high school in the US. Moving into a semi-independent adulthood was definitely a mixed blessing for her and a bunch of her friends...I think it is possible to push some kids too hard - and the parenting that works for one child may not work for another.

F'r instance, a child struggling with strong emotions might benefit from a bit more free time and less unstructured responsibility. BPDw did well by adopting a false, extremely competent and brave face.  But, she seems to have spent the next 15+ years secretly terrified.

OTOH, I dunno - we're kind of adopting the opposite approach in terms of normalizing BPD behavior for toddler.
'Oh that - your mom is mentally ill.  That's why she did that. That's really not ok. She goes to a doctor to try to learn better behavior.'

--Argyle

[Matt]

Are there any rules at Mom's house? Structure. (silly questions probably). Does she overindulge them? Was she overindulged as a kid? Just trying to get the big picture...

I don't think she overindulges them.  I just think she has low expectations.  Same with school - I realized many years ago (when SD22 was about 12) that I needed to expect her to do her best and to grow up, and I think it's similar with D15 and S13 now - their mom doesn't expect much of them but I usually find that when I expect more they rise to the challenge and take pride in doing more.  For example, I usually ask one of them to make dinner on Saturday and the other on Sunday - make a shopping list, we go to the store, then fix dinner and clean up afterward.  They've been doing that for years.  Now I expect them to do their own laundry most of the time, and fix their lunches for school - stuff their mom still does for them.

I'm not sure it's so much a matter of structure...at their mom's house they just watch TV all the time.  I don't think that's good for them, and I don't want to bust my chops doing everything when they are capable of helping.

[Matt]

Dunno.  This reminded me a bit of BPDw.  When she was a teenager - she left her family and went to high school in the US. Moving into a semi-independent adulthood was definitely a mixed blessing for her and a bunch of her friends...I think it is possible to push some kids too hard - and the parenting that works for one child may not work for another.

F'r instance, a child struggling with strong emotions might benefit from a bit more free time and less unstructured responsibility. BPDw did well by adopting a false, extremely competent and brave face.  But, she seems to have spent the next 15+ years secretly terrified.

OTOH, I dunno - we're kind of adopting the opposite approach in terms of normalizing BPD behavior for toddler.
'Oh that - your mom is mentally ill.  That's why she did that. That's really not ok. She goes to a doctor to try to learn better behavior.'

--Argyle

I think I'm going to have to just watch and see...

[Shanley]

Hi Matt,
I know you're an involved and thoughtful parent and everyone's already made good comments but were you at all invalidating when she realized there was no pasta?

[Matt]

Hi Matt,
I know you're an involved and thoughtful parent and everyone's already made good comments but were you at all invalidating when she realized there was no pasta?

That's a good question.  I'm not sure.  Frankly she was so upset, I didn't discuss it with her then.  I'm not sure if that's "validating" or "invalidating", I just viewed her as too upset to talk about it rationally.

Yesterday I asked her and she acknowledged that rice has carbs like pasta - she knew that - but she doesn't like rice as much.  I let that go - she's smart enough to know that liking pasta more wasn't a good reason for her to fuss so much.  I think she was so upset that evening (Thursday) that she wasn't rational, and that's what I want her to work on - thinking clearly and dealing with things, not throwing fits.

[Matt]

Another piece to the puzzle...

D15's race was Friday, and she got home early Saturday, then went to a dance that night - home around 11:00.

She slept in yesterday morning, then was pretty active, and went to bed before 9:00.  School this morning at the usual time.

But she called me early this afternoon and said she was tired and needed to come home.  It's not like her to make up stuff, but it didn't make sense to me, so I heard her out and then said no, she needed to go to her two remaining classes, and then she could ditch track practice if she wanted.  She cried and begged, so I picked her up.

I could tell there was more to the story.  When we got in the car, she asked me when her doctor appointment was - her dermatologist - she has bad acne.  It's next Tuesday.  Someone had made a thoughtless remark about another kid's acne and it made her feel horrible.  I think it was pent-up frustration - she's had this problem for a long time and the doctor's solutions haven't worked.  I think she's just really, really tired of not looking good.

I've tried to get her a sooner appointment but can't.  I told her I'm sure the doctor will do everything she can - and she is very empathetic, which will help a little.

So...school, in advanced classes, plus track, with a bullying coach, plus social stuff and her complexion...probably all stressing her out pretty bad.

I put her to bed, and called SD22, and talked with her about it, and she's going to give D15 a call later - maybe not bring it all up, but just talk about whatever - D15 has always felt "less than" SD22, who is brilliant and beautiful and very sophisticated, so maybe a kind call from her will help.

I also put a letter in the mail to SS34, who is D15's idol, asking him to call or write her when he can.  She thinks he walks on water, and he returns the feeling, and can always help her feel like a princess.  I do lots for her, but I don't think I always make her feel good about herself, so maybe this is the time to reach out for help with that...

[DreamGirl]

Poor thing.

Acne is the worst. DS15 had it on his back and face... and hated the tank tops for track. All the dermatologist failed attempts resulted in taking Accutane and it cleared him up in three months.

Boosted his confidence 1000%. Is going to be a lifeguard this summer when he wouldn't even go in the pool without a t-shirt last summer.

((DD15))

Being a teenager can suck. 

[Matt]

All the dermatologist failed attempts resulted in taking Accutane and it cleared him up in three months.

Hm.

According to the Interweb, it's only prescribed as a last resort, presumably because it is so likely to cause birth defects.  I'm very sure D15 isn't sexually active, but I suppose the dermatologist may have some requirements anyway, like even making her take a birth control pill while she's on Accutane?

And it's not recommended if you have a family history of mental illness.  Maybe I can have a private talk with the dermatologist, or tell her openly about my ex's BPD - I doubt that it's relevant because I don't think it's a biochemical problem, and I don't think D15 "inherited" it.

I think if I gave D15 the choice between acne and mental illness, right now she'd choose the mental illness.

[Shanley]

Hi Matt,
I know you're an involved and thoughtful parent and everyone's already made good comments but were you at all invalidating when she realized there was no pasta?

That's a good question.  I'm not sure.  Frankly she was so upset, I didn't discuss it with her then.  I'm not sure if that's "validating" or "invalidating", I just viewed her as too upset to talk about it rationally.

Yesterday I asked her and she acknowledged that rice has carbs like pasta - she knew that - but she doesn't like rice as much.  I let that go - she's smart enough to know that liking pasta more wasn't a good reason for her to fuss so much.  I think she was so upset that evening (Thursday) that she wasn't rational, and that's what I want her to work on - thinking clearly and dealing with things, not throwing fits.

Okay, just checking. I'm projecting a bit here because I can see my mother impatiently snapping that rice and pasta are the same when they're clearly not.  It sounds like it was just the last straw for her.

I know you haven't asked for advice but if you haven't tried this http://reviews.burtsbees.com/8993/24505/natural-acne-solutions-targeted-spot-treatment-reviews/reviews.htm?sort=rating, you might want to get it for her. It doesn't happen overnight but my D has had more success with it than any other over the counter stuff.

[DreamGirl]

According to the Interweb, it's only prescribed as a last resort, presumably because it is so likely to cause birth defects.  I'm very sure D15 isn't sexually active, but I suppose the dermatologist may have some requirements anyway, like even making her take a birth control pill while she's on Accutane?

Yes, she will have to take birth control pills. She also will have to take pregnancy tests to ensure that she's not pregnant. They really emphasize that girls can not be or become pregnant when taking it. My son, of course, didn't have to endure any of those things.

There is also a questionairre that they have to fill out every month and there is a whole hooplah around the approval process between the Doctor and the pharmacy, and the window of time to get the monthly supply  between when you go to the Dr. and when you pick up the prescription. (It was a real headache - especially if the time lapsed or the Dr. didn't approve it right away)  
 
There are also some cases that have showed lowered liver function, and so they also have to do blood tests to make sure the liver is functioning after being on the medication for 30 days.

And it's not recommended if you have a family history of mental illness.  Maybe I can have a private talk with the dermatologist, or tell her openly about my ex's BPD - I doubt that it's relevant because I don't think it's a biochemical problem, and I don't think D15 "inherited" it.

I think if I gave D15 the choice between acne and mental illness, right now she'd choose the mental illness.

My kiddo was well informed of this side effect, part of the "contract" he signed as far as what you needed to abide by when taking the medication (I'm sure the girl's has more being that they have to control not getting pregnant). Depression was discussed in depth as one of the side effects - probably being that teenagers are emotional little creatures anyways. My own son didn't have any problems with it at all, but the Doctor let him know that it could happen and to be aware of it.

Actually, it was quite the opposite for him. He was a whole different kid once his acne started clearing up. Like I said, his confidence was boosted by the disappearence of his acne.

His acne was also very severe and was getting worse. Over the counter products were a joke and even the prescription products didn't put a dent in it. So after we found that he was resistant to every other treatment, he started the drug.  I would recommend anyone to ask their own Dr. about it.

Ours was definitely a success case.

[Matt]

Well you called it DG...

The dermatologist's office called this morning and said they could see her, so I called the school and arranged to pick her up.  On the way, I told her about Accutane - what I learned here and what I read about it.

Sure enough, the doctor gave us a few options but recommended another version of Accutane - not that brand.  She said there have to be two forms of birth control, but one can be abstinence and the other can be condoms, so she won't have to take birth control pills.

I don't know if my insurance will cover it - a big issue - and from my experience it may be hard to find out til it's too late.

But both D15 and I felt good about it.  We have to wait a month and make another appointment and then she can get the pills.

Thanks!

[DreamGirl]

 

I think everyone will be happy with the results.

It's funny how one of the underlying factors of a teenagers struggles could be acne. [Way to go, Dad, by the way - in being so proactive once she told you what was bothering her so much]

Is your daughter pretty excited about the more aggressive approach? My son was really excited after seeing the before and after pictures the Dr. showed him. He even cut the mop off his head once the pimples were gone from his forehead.

Make sure you keep us posted how it all works out!

~DG

[Matt]

Is your daughter pretty excited about the more aggressive approach? My son was really excited after seeing the before and after pictures the Dr. showed him. He even cut the mop off his head once the pimples were gone from his forehead.

Here's what she posted on Facebook last night:

Its so amazing when God answers your prayers and you truly know He's watching over you ♥

It's funny because I don't share her faith (though I support it), so in my mind I'm thinking, "DreamGirl's advice, my initiative and money, the doctor's recommendation, and the drug companies' research and development...and God gets the credit."  But of course, in her view, He is working through all of us.  And who am I to say she's wrong?

So yeah, she was clearly very excited to finally see light at the end of the tunnel.  I'm really struggling financially, and this will add to that challenge, either a little or maybe a lot, but I'm glad there is at least a path forward for her - a very good thing.

Thanks DG!

[DreamGirl]

My insurance covered it. Still an expensive copay. Worth every penny though.

Maybe she can pray about that little detail.   

~DG

Ps. Better God then her mom. Been there too.  ;p