D15's tantrum.

[Think About It....]

Big week for both D15 and S13...

D15 has a track meet a few hours away by bus.  They leave at noon and will stay overnight, back tomorrow about noon.

S13 has an activity out of town too.  He'll be gone two nights.

Both kids have been very excited and have been preparing.  D15 texted me some stuff she wanted (like snacks for the trip) but I forgot about her text.  I had S13 pick out snacks for both of them.

D15 also wanted pasta for dinner - "carb-loading" - but I had something else planned.  But I made extra rice so she could get her carbs that way.

When D15 got home after track practice, and found out that I hadn't got all the stuff she wanted from the store, and we weren't having pasta, she threw a huge fit, cried, and said some mean things to me.  Then she went to her room and wrote me an e-mail with more harsh stuff, including "you never show me you care about me", "you never say you love me or you're proud of me", and "right now I'm feeling like I don't even have a dad."

I waited a while, then wrote a short note back, saying we should talk about it when she gets back, and that I love her and I'm proud of her and hope she has a great trip.

She's usually very appreciative of what I do for her, and she tells me her friends are jealous and wish I was their dad too.  But she's also very emotional.

Later she seemed fine but she didn't apologize.  This morning she seemed fine too - she found the snacks S13 had gotten and didn't even ask to go to the store before school, which we could have done.  She gave me a hug when I dropped them off.

Part of me thinks she's just 15 and emotional, and I shouldn't over-react, but should look to the truth in what she said - I do tell her I love her, but not enough, for example - and not worry about the unfair parts.

Another part of me thinks she may have picked up her mom's behaviors and I should look for a counselor for her.  Both kids saw a counselor before we moved, about 2 years ago - but I haven't thought it was needed since then.

I'll have a good talk with her tomorrow or Sunday - she gets back a day before S13 so there will be time...

[Matt]

Big week for both D15 and S13...

D15 has a track meet a few hours away by bus.  They leave at noon and will stay overnight, back tomorrow about noon.

S13 has an activity out of town too.  He'll be gone two nights.

Both kids have been very excited and have been preparing.  D15 texted me some stuff she wanted (like snacks for the trip) but I forgot about her text.  I had S13 pick out snacks for both of them.

D15 also wanted pasta for dinner - "carb-loading" - but I had something else planned.  But I made extra rice so she could get her carbs that way.

When D15 got home after track practice, and found out that I hadn't got all the stuff she wanted from the store, and we weren't having pasta, she threw a huge fit, cried, and said some mean things to me.  Then she went to her room and wrote me an e-mail with more harsh stuff, including "you never show me you care about me", "you never say you love me or you're proud of me", and "right now I'm feeling like I don't even have a dad."

I waited a while, then wrote a short note back, saying we should talk about it when she gets back, and that I love her and I'm proud of her and hope she has a great trip.

She's usually very appreciative of what I do for her, and she tells me her friends are jealous and wish I was their dad too.  But she's also very emotional.

Later she seemed fine but she didn't apologize.  This morning she seemed fine too - she found the snacks S13 had gotten and didn't even ask to go to the store before school, which we could have done.  She gave me a hug when I dropped them off.

Part of me thinks she's just 15 and emotional, and I shouldn't over-react, but should look to the truth in what she said - I do tell her I love her, but not enough, for example - and not worry about the unfair parts.

Another part of me thinks she may have picked up her mom's behaviors and I should look for a counselor for her.  Both kids saw a counselor before we moved, about 2 years ago - but I haven't thought it was needed since then.

I'll have a good talk with her tomorrow or Sunday - she gets back a day before S13 so there will be time...

[DreamGirl]

I think self-centeredness and ungratefulness comes with the teenage hormones I swear.

I think it certainly could be a combination of all the factors you listed.  Teenagers are relatively moody creatures (I have four in my home right now) and they don't even understand it sometimes. BPD is the inability to regulate emotions. Can she regulate her emotions? (unlike your ex-wife) From what you told me, she is cognitively able to do so? 

I would definitely talk to her when she gets back when all the nerves are settled from all contributing stressors.

FWIW, my oldest runs Varsity track and I'm certain that I've been lectured about the pasta dish that is absolutely vital the day before (coach's directive). He's had to make his own separate dinner several times when I've forgotten. They really do stress their diet, so I can understand her being put out. My boy won't touch soda and checks labels for protein and other nutrition content ~ drinks protein shakes as well that taste like dirt. It took me a while to understand just how important this all was to him.

All that doesn't justify scathing notes to parents though.

~DreamGirl

[motwgk]

I agree with DreamGirl, although thankfully I only have one teenager in the house right now!

When she gets back, the important thing will be to follow up with her:

we should talk about it when she gets back

Really listen to why she felt that way. Let her talk first, and let her talk safely without being defensive. Teenagers (really all of us) just want to be heard, to be considered. Sometimes saying "no" is ok when they can see you listening, see you thinking it over and hear your concerns, and know you have valid reasons (not necessarily good reasons in their minds) for turning them down. I would also let her know that while you appreciated her communicating with you, that respecful communication next time, even in a note, will work better (that whole honey is better than vinegar thing).

Maybe you can use this opportunity to let her plan the meals in the future (day before a meet, this day every week, day of a meet, any day when she gives you 48-hour notice), and maybe even do the cooking.

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[JustSaying]

When D15 got home after track practice, and found out that I hadn't got all the stuff she wanted from the store, and we weren't having pasta

She's old enough for, "Honey, I need more notice when you will need a special meal. I'm happy to provide what you'll need, but I may not have it in the house if I'm not told at least the day before, and it may not be reasonable for me to stop what I'm doing and run to the store. Can you tell me at least the day before?"

[Matt]

Well to be fair, she did tell me, well in advance, that she wanted pasta, and if I had said, "I'll get it but you have to fix it", she would have been glad to do that - she helps with meals a lot, though it's tough on weeknights because of track practice and homework.  It really was my fault for forgetting, but I don't think pasta is the only way to get carbohydrates - we had a huge amount of rice and she didn't eat much - so I think there is an element of "my way or the highway" - she likes pasta, and I'm sure the other girls on the team all had it last night...

Same with the snacks for the trip - I can't fault her for not telling me, because she did, though she could have gotten them herself the last time we were all at Wal-Mart - just a few days ago.

I think she usually does an OK job regulating her emotions, but it's not too unusual for her to get upset and cry over stuff even smaller than this.  I usually tell her to take a break and we'll talk about it in a little while, and that usually works fine, as it did this time, but this time was a bigger deal than usual.

Their mom goes berserk over small stuff - sometimes something that hasn't even happens but that she imagines might happen - but I have so little interaction with her now that I don't know how often the kids are subjected to that.  They both seem pretty able to manage it - even years ago when we were together, they were able to identify when Mom was upset - though D15 does seem hurt sometimes when her mom says something mean to her.  And she has that example - her main female role model is someone who gets what she wants by throwing fits like a two-year-old...

I think after 24 hours away, and when the stress of the track meet is past - she's not a star athlete and nobody expects her to be, but her coach is kind of a bully so he turns every meet into a stressor - she'll be able to reflect on this and tell me what is really going on - what parts of what she said and wrote are real and which parts are just acting out.  And I think she'll be able to understand when I say she needs to control her behavior more consistently.  I can offer her counseling - not sure about that - she might view that as me thinking she's crazy...

I have told her that her mother was diagnosed with BPD and ordered by the court to get therapy but has apparently decided not to, and that she was violent at times, and falsely accused me of assault.  I don't want to tell her, "You're just like your mom", which isn't true and wouldn't be helpful.  But I can say, "When we were married, your mom often said and did things that were inappropriate and destructive when she was upset.  You've seen that behavior your whole life and it might seem like a normal way to react to stress, but you need to find other ways to deal with stress.  I can help you with that, or we can find you a counselor if you think that would be better."

[DreamGirl]

"When we were married, your mom often said and did things that were inappropriate and destructive when she was upset.  You've seen that behavior your whole life and it might seem like a normal way to react to stress, but you need to find other ways to deal with stress.  I can help you with that, or we can find you a counselor if you think that would be better."

I'd leave the marriage and mom out of it.

She's a separate entity from her mom, even if her behavior is reflecting her mom's excellent role modeling... and it deflects from the task at hand. You also don't get to assess blame or fault.

Just my honest thoughts.    

[Matt]

"When we were married, your mom often said and did things that were inappropriate and destructive when she was upset.  You've seen that behavior your whole life and it might seem like a normal way to react to stress, but you need to find other ways to deal with stress.  I can help you with that, or we can find you a counselor if you think that would be better."

I'd leave the marriage and mom out of it.

She's a separate entity from her mom, even if her behavior is reflecting her mom's excellent role modeling... and it deflects from the task at hand. You also don't get to assess blame or fault.

Just my honest thoughts.    

I guess my thinking is, to get it out on the table, that she is probably still seeing this behavior fairly often, though I suspect it is milder now.

D15 is smart and perceptive, and I think she could understand that the behavior she sees may be affecting her own, and she needs to understand that and take control over her behavior instead of just mimicking what she sees.

I think I can do that without making it about her mom or saying anything that isn't fair.  We've all seen that behavior many times, so it should be just like, "Your mom really likes Twizzlers huh?".

[DreamGirl]

That's just it, Matt. You don't know what she's witnessing currently. You're not at the other house and it's a gross assumption to think that she's "acting like her mom".

Maybe that's your own "stuff" coming into play.

Research shows that disparaging the other parent is counterproductive. Even when you feel as strongly as you do about it.

My SD14 is being forced to go to a church ceremony tonight (rather then her softball barbecue) that celebrates abstinence before marriage. It is all at her mom's urging who actively is dating a man who spends the night at her house... while she still is married to her estranged husband.

I don't have to say a cross word for my SD to figure out the hypocrisy in that. I also don't intefere with my SD figuring out her own opinion of her mom or her "behavior".

You using "inappropriate" and "destructive" is your own value system at play. I think it's OK to share your assessment if she asks, but to offer it up, I feel, is making it about you and how you feel.

This is between a daughter and her father. Leave mom out of it.

~DreamGirl

[JustSaying]

When we were married, your mom often said and did things that were inappropriate and destructive when she was upset.  You've seen that behavior your whole life and it might seem like a normal way to react to stress, but you need to find other ways to deal with stress.  I can help you with that, or we can find you a counselor if you think that would be better.

Guilt by association. My D would recoil at this comparison, whether it's your intent to compare or not. And offering counseling for this incident seems over the top. If there's an extended pattern of behavior, sure, but not an incident. I'd guess that such an offer would make D15 less open, if she starts to associate being open and sharing her emotions with the penalty of having to see a counselor. That's how D14 would probably see it.

I'd be more of the "Honey, how do we want to handle this next time?" sort.

..plus everything DG wrote...

[Matt]

That's just it, Matt. You don't know what she's witnessing currently. You're not at the other house and it's a gross assumption to think that she's "acting like her mom".

Maybe that's your own "stuff" coming into play.

Research shows that disparaging the other parent is counterproductive. Even when you feel as strongly as you do about it.

My SD14 is being forced to go to a church ceremony tonight (rather then her softball barbecue) that celebrates abstinence before marriage. It is all at her mom's urging who actively is dating a man who spends the night at her house... while she still is married to her estranged husband.

I don't have to say a cross word for my SD to figure out the hypocrisy in that. I also don't intefere with my SD figuring out her own opinion of her mom or her "behavior".

You using "inappropriate" and "destructive" is your own value system at play. I think it's OK to share your assessment if she asks, but to offer it up, I feel, is making it about you and how you feel.

This is between a daughter and her father. Leave mom out of it.

~DreamGirl

By "inappropriate" and "destructive", I mean, for example, accusing people of things they didn't do, saying "You don't care about..." (a phrase in D15's note which is one of her mom's favorites), big fits that don't solve problems, and of course violence.

For example, two of D15's huge issues last night - she was crying and yelling so it was impossible to communicate with her - were the carb-loading and "I won't have anything to eat tomorrow" (that is, today).

But in fact we were having rice, which is virtually all carbs, and I had a lot of it, so she could carb-load just as well as if we had pasta.

And S13 had gotten granola bars, fruit, and Gatorade for her, and I had cash for her to get lunch.

So if she had stopped to listen, she would have found out that while I hadn't done all she had asked, it was all OK.  The behavior I saw was dysfunctional and inappropriate, and I want her to see that.  I'm just thinking that in order to see it clearly, she may need to understand why that kind of behavior seems normal to her, when it really isn't.  (Though maybe at 15 it's not too unusual.  SD22 didn't behave that way but they're very different people.)

I guess my point is, I don't think "inappropriate" and "destructive" are arbitrary values I'm imposing, any more than if she put her hand through the wall it would be arbitrary to say that was destructive.  Her fit kept her (and me) from doing any problem-solving, and I want her to see that the way to deal with things you're not happy about is to keep control over your behavior and look for solutions, not throw fits.  And that she can express her feelings - I have no problems with her saying she's mad at me, for example - without saying things that are unfair and hurtful.  Again, that's behavior  I would expect from a five-year-old, or her mom, but not from an adult, which she is quickly becoming.

[Matt]

When we were married, your mom often said and did things that were inappropriate and destructive when she was upset.  You've seen that behavior your whole life and it might seem like a normal way to react to stress, but you need to find other ways to deal with stress.  I can help you with that, or we can find you a counselor if you think that would be better.

Guilt by association. My D would recoil at this comparison, whether it's your intent to compare or not. And offering counseling for this incident seems over the top. If there's an extended pattern of behavior, sure, but not an incident. I'd guess that such an offer would make D15 less open, if she starts to associate being open and sharing her emotions with the penalty of having to see a counselor. That's how D14 would probably see it.

I'd be more of the "Honey, how do we want to handle this next time?" sort.

..plus everything DG wrote...

There is a pattern, but not very often.  This is the most extreme example in a long while, and I do think she was under a lot of stress, because of the trip and the coach.  (He's bullied the kids so much that several have quit track.)  I'm hopeful that she can see this rationally, and consciously learn to deal with these feelings without either repressing them or falling apart like this.

Her idol is her big brother, who is a recovering addict - more than 3 years sober now, and she is very aware of that.  He acted like this too, til he went to rehab and I insisted that he get a grip on it;  in fact I had a very similar talk with him when he was in his late 20s, and told him bluntly that he could not be around (he was living with me at the time) if he couldn't control his behavior - fits like a child.  He knew about his mom's BPD and I put it in that context - "I don't think you have BPD, but you were raised by someone with it, and some of the behaviors may have rubbed off.  But you have to get a grip or take it somewhere else."  That worked very well (once he had been through rehab) - he seemed to appreciate that I was laying it on the line and not manipulating him, just telling him how I saw it - and that was his last fit.

I have the feeling that D15 is ready for that tough love too - here's how I see it and I need you to deal with it.  (Or at least that she will be by tomorrow.)

[DreamGirl]

OK, Matt.

 Hi!

She acted like a five year old. Doesn't matter who is to blame.

Her mom acting like a five year old sometimes, or while you were married, or whatever is irrelevant.

That is your issue to reconcile when it comes to your ex-wife. Don't drag your daughter into it.

It's the same way you get all riled up when your oldest SD blames you for her mom being broke (or whatever else her mom tries to drag her into).

I just don't think this is the time or situation to be paralleling your daughter's temper tantrum to her mom. Rule #27 in the Coparenting Handbook is that you don't blame the other parent. And #28 is not to parallel bad behavior or shame the child for acting like the other parent. It's her mama... and she gets to figure it out.

Kids are separate entities then their parents.

I would treat her accordingly and talk about her bad behavior with her.  

~DreamGirl

[Matt]

Well I wasn't thinking in terms of "blame" - in fact that's a huge hot-button word for us - took me many years to un-teach the kids to focus on blame, and teach them to focus on solutions - so I'm very sensitive to anybody being blamed for something someone else does.  "I did X because he did Y!" is logic we've talked about a lot, and I think both kids are (mostly) past that, at least when they're with me.

So I wasn't thinking in terms of "This is your mom's fault", so much as, "You've been exposed to a very strong example your whole life, and you need to see that, and deal with it - not mimic what you've seen but choose for yourself how you're going to act."

[motwgk]

Not that you know me, or have a reason to trust me, but I totally agree with DreamGirl. I would approach her by letting her know what works best when dealing with you. More along the lines of, "Honey, when you're upset with me, here's the best way to work with me so I can help understand what's going on. Now what can I do to work better with you?" My D13 would completely shut down if I brought up any talk of my X when she and I are dealing with the way we interact with each other, much as I would expect her to shut down if X started talking about me while she was there.

It doesn't matter what happens at the other house, it doesn't matter what other role models she has in her life, it doesn't matter how her mom lives her life. What matters, and what this is all about, is how the two of you communicate and interact.

[JustSaying]

If she's anything like D14, regardless of what you think you're saying, she will hear, "You acted just like your mom."

She will probably learn more from "Here's what I expect in my house" than she will from any form of "I'm certainly not comparing you to mom, but her behaviors were bad and yours reminded me of hers."

[doryswimsagain]

Jumping in...

  Comparing her behaviors with her Mom's. I have already made this mistake, and got scolded by T (in a nice way ).  I had the same thinking as you going into it, Matt.  T pointed out to me that this is interpreted differently in the mind of a child (granted, mine is younger than yours, but I think the effect is similar). We intend it to offer a base example that they can relate to, but it gets jumbled, and inflicts a sense of threat.  Dad did these things, and he got the boot. Now Mom sees me doing it --?

Whether or not we think we are doing a good job, I promise, our feelings, anger, mistrust, and discontent with the Xs shine through to the kids. Darn perceptive little buggars that they are. You simply do not want to make these connections, unless they are complimentary. "You have pretty eyes, just like Mom..."

  Counseling.  I am already knee jerking at Ds behavior, worried that she will adopt her dad's disorder.  So I get it.  I tend to overreact, because I am a perfectionist, terrified of missing something - being the sole responsible parent amplifies this I think. But I think when and if this becomes necessary, it should not come on the heels of a confrontations such as this one. If there is a pattern established over time, then take that step -- but even then, I would go around to the "side door."

  Reading through this post, I just kept thinking    ! I don't know that kids are exempt from this little diddy, but hadn't thought much on it til now.  Anyone have some perspective on this?

[Matt]

Reading through this post, I just kept thinking    ! I don't know that kids are exempt from this little diddy, but hadn't thought much on it til now.  Anyone have some perspective on this?

Not sure I know what you mean about this - you mean maybe D15 has "fleas" - has picked up some BPDish behaviors from her Mom?

[doryswimsagain]

Reading through this post, I just kept thinking    ! I don't know that kids are exempt from this little diddy, but hadn't thought much on it til now.  Anyone have some perspective on this?

Not sure I know what you mean about this - you mean maybe D15 has "fleas" - has picked up some BPDish behaviors from her Mom?

Right.  She is not BPD, but may occassionally react in ways familiar to her...in which case, I think the correct course is still to be clear and concise about what behavior and method of communication is acceptable when she is with you.

[Matt]

Reading through this post, I just kept thinking    ! I don't know that kids are exempt from this little diddy, but hadn't thought much on it til now.  Anyone have some perspective on this?

Not sure I know what you mean about this - you mean maybe D15 has "fleas" - has picked up some BPDish behaviors from her Mom?

Right.  She is not BPD, but may occassionally react in ways familiar to her...in which case, I think the correct course is still to be clear and concise about what behavior and method of communication is acceptable when she is with you.

Yeah, that's kind of what I had been thinking - not for sure, because it's not unheard-of for a 15-year-old girl under stress to get emotional - but it certainly was the case with her big brother, and they are a lot alike.

I was concerned he might have BPD, but when I was frank with him about what change in his behavior I expected, he was able to do that, which convinced me that he didn't have BPD, but had learned those behaviors from his mom, and was able to make the needed changes when he got that feedback.

I'm thinking it might be similar with D15 - when she is told very clearly what I expect, I think she may be able to make that change - maybe not perfectly but moving in the right direction, because I doubt she has BPD or any other big problem.  I think it's most likely a combination of normal behavior for a girl that age, plus learned behavior from her mom.

[Rose1]

Slightly different point of view - I don't see that saying a certain kind of behaviour or seeing behaviour and thinking it is ok is saying your D is like your mother at all. I found it very beneficial to point out that a particular kind of behaviour my D's saw was not acceptable. - It's about the behaviour not about the person.

It does depend on the kid but I have to say mine responded very well and certainly never thought I compared them. Totally different to what they were always getting - "you are just taking your mother's side, you are just like her yada yada". At the time these discussions were going on my oldest wa around 16.  They need to know that mother's behaviour should not be modelled.  Remember the quote: "Kids dont do what their parents say, but will without fail do what their parents do".  BTW mine are now 26 and 22 and pretty well adjusted. I thought Matt's response well balanced and very careful.
Rose