how to respond when H tells me what my "real intentions were"

[Think About It...]

My h hasnt talked to me in months. long story. anyway a situation occurred where he was screaming at me at the top of his lungs in a scary manner. He has been doing this for months rather than just talking. i decided to call the police, then
changed my mind. they came anyway and talked to him. no charges were filed
and when they got there i told them i was sorry for calling it was just verbal
not physical.
My H got hysterical and got an attorney and has taken this to a whole new level. he says that my intention was to hurt him, not protect myself and until i admit it he wont talk or have any resolution of any kind. That was not a concious intention on my part, but pure frustration of the silent treatment and screaming when asking him questions. Lots of other things happened before this, such as him
labeling me BPD, treating me like i had the plague and so forth.
at any rate he is taking this to the matt. Either i see i was totally at fault and trying to hurt him on purpose, or he wont reconcile.
He also wants me to work on 'my problems" which he says i should know what they are.
its so frustrating when someone talks in riddles.
i guess its a ciruclar conversation.

[sometimesnow]

My h hasnt talked to me in months. long story. anyway a situation occurred where he was screaming at me at the top of his lungs in a scary manner. He has been doing this for months rather than just talking. i decided to call the police, then
changed my mind. they came anyway and talked to him. no charges were filed
and when they got there i told them i was sorry for calling it was just verbal
not physical.
My H got hysterical and got an attorney and has taken this to a whole new level. he says that my intention was to hurt him, not protect myself and until i admit it he wont talk or have any resolution of any kind. That was not a concious intention on my part, but pure frustration of the silent treatment and screaming when asking him questions. Lots of other things happened before this, such as him
labeling me BPD, treating me like i had the plague and so forth.
at any rate he is taking this to the matt. Either i see i was totally at fault and trying to hurt him on purpose, or he wont reconcile.
He also wants me to work on 'my problems" which he says i should know what they are.
its so frustrating when someone talks in riddles.
i guess its a ciruclar conversation.

[JustSaying]

I'm getting confused. He's not talking to you, but he's telling you about your intentions and his conditions for a resolution. He has zero intent to reconcile under any condition, but today your admitting fault and maliciousness would pave the way for reconciliation. I'm missing parts of the picture.

[sometimesnow]

yes, at first it was not under any condition. and he still says its not under any condition. but when we briefly chatted he would say things like "you dont get it, this tells me ... i cant reconcile,, or this tells me your'll never get it... or whatever.
when i apologized (should have walked out or done something and not called police, realize that now, moment of crazy emotions, and months of frustration). he was trying to force me to "admit" i did it to hurt him. i did not do this to hurt him, just in a moment of crazy emotions and him screaming in a terrifying manner. at any rate, he has taken the recorded 911 call into several people (therapist, attorney and what note) to decide what MY intentions were and he is wrong. at any rate, i owned by own part and i am letting the rest go. we were both at fault, he for his bad behavior and me for calling on an impulse. i cant undo it. and he is now not owning any of his prior (five months prior treatment of me).
at any  rate, i am just leaving him a lone at this point. i validated he must feel awful if this were his belief, but its not true.
so crazy.
i was reading about depressed spouses on another website and his behavior is common for severe depression and i am just going to accept him and let go. he can be as mad as he wants for as long as he wants over the police thing. he can not own a bit of what he has done including months of silent treatment and non forgiveness, he can play the tape over and over again, he can say the rosary until he is blue in the face, i cant control him, his intrepretation or anything.. so crazy.

[eeyore]

While you are leaving him alone, what are you doing to help better things in the future?

[JustSaying]

he is now not owning any of his prior (five months prior treatment of me)

The not-talking-to-you stuff has been going on for years, if I recall.

It's at a stalemate, and won't change on its own.

"Real intentions" reminds me of a story that highlighted the absurdity of the relationship I was in. I was washing dishes one day after making dinner, and X started yelling at me for doing that. [Yeah, go figure...] Then she said, "You're just washing the dishes to make me feel bad." Guess she knew my real intentions better than I did. Oh, and also fond of saying, "You don't realize you're _______." That way I'd have no defense, just like "real intentions."

There was no resolution for what I was being told and no resolution for what you're being told. It's a linguistic trap. Anything I'd say or anything you could say would be dismissed as not what you really mean, because you don't know your real intentions. A 'clever' way to avoid ever finding resolution.

[LoveNotWar]

Same here, before I understood we were dealing w/BPD I'd defend myself, ask him to not tell me how I feel , ask him to listen so I  could explain what I was thinking...I'm sure we've all been there...totally invalidating for hiim and frustrating for me.

The hardest was when he would  tell me what I was thinking then lecture me about how bad I was for thinking that way. As I look back on those awful tirades/rages I can now see how I was trying  to reason with someone who was beyond reason! A perfect recipe for making us both crazy!

Now if I can't validate I take  a break and just leave. I'm mindful of my own feelings and tension in my body and I get out before I go over the edge myself. I don't stay for the "real intentions" stuff. Because I'm being super consistent it really is making a difference!

[Auspicious]

and he is now not owning any of his prior (five months prior treatment of me).

What do you mean by "owning"?  You believe him to be seriously mentally ill, right?


In any case, you can't make him see the situation your way. On the other had, you don't have to see it his way.

[JustSaying]

In any case, you can't make him see the situation your way. On the other had, you don't have to see it his way.

Yup. Stalemate. Now what, sometimesnow?

[artman.1]

All,
     This is where we need to see that detaching with love works, and accepting that we have no power over others (HIM).  We detach, without holding anger in, and let go, detaching with love.  Allow him to deal with his stuff, and we deal with our stuff.  We caoont reason with an Insane person.  Reason will only act to worsten things.
     Quote:  i validated he must feel awful if this were his belief, but its not true.  Within this Validation exists a very invalidating part, the part in Red.  If we validate, we show an understanding of their feelings, not that we agree, and do not negate this understanding with the "BUT" statement that further states you really do not understand and want his feelings to be what you say they must be, rather than his feelings that are his only.  The but ststement is saying his feelings are all wrong, and that really hurts, especially when his feelings are his truth. 
     By the way, my feelings are my truth as well, but I can be reasonable and accept if I am wrong about something after it is reasonably explained, where as BPD's are usually not very reasonable.

Art

[isilme]

There was no resolution for what I was being told and no resolution for what you're being told. It's a linguistic trap. Anything I'd say or anything you could say would be dismissed as not what you really mean, because you don't know your real intentions. A 'clever' way to avoid ever finding resolution.

I found myself facing this a lot last night, and recently.  BF is forever telling me what I supposed to be thinking, and even when I just give up and invalidate by telling he has no clue what's in my mind, he just sticks to it. 

Is there any way around this?  I've been faced with something similar to the dishes thing - apparently I don't clean because I like things to be clean and it helps my own sense of calm, but I clean to make him feel bad for not doing it himself.  In fact, it seems most things I do are meant to hurt him and make him feel bad - it's apparently all I think about or do, when I am not ignoring him by reading a book on the Kindle he bought me.  This chalks right up there with the "You don't love me or care about my feelings," statements.  Not that I've been walking on eggshells for 16 years trying to care about his feelings to the detriment of my own or anything.   

I refuse to respond when I can, but if that's how he sees me, if he really thinks I am some horrible person who only wishes to hurt him, how can we live like this?  Sorry if I'm a bit snarky above - really tired today. 

[Auspicious]

Is there any way around this? 

Is there a way for you to change what he is thinking? No.

[JustSaying]

Is there any way around this?

My solution was to head on over to the Legal board. (Gallows humor, sorry.) I was unable to find or enact a solution that made things bearable for me. That doesn't mean they don't exist...I might have been particularly inept with the tools, or just lost my will to put forth the effort. Anything I tried inevitably lead to her saying, "Well, you don't realize you're doing it," and I had neither the desire nor training to tackle that one...I gave up. The advisors on this board can point to the most appropriate ways to break this chain.

I read the article on breaking circular arguments, but for me it wasn't circular. It was just a funneling toward whatever comment seemed to leave one with no response.

I look forward to seeing what suggestions come forth...

[real lady]

My H got hysterical and got an attorney and has taken this to a whole new level. he says that my intention was to hurt him, not protect myself and until i admit it he wont talk or have any resolution of any kind. Either i see i was totally at fault and trying to hurt him on purpose, or he wont reconcile.

wow, I am so sorry to hear that he is SO adamant at denying any responsibility that he is demanding that YOU take the "blame" for no reconciliation. I think that this is an emotional blackmail tactic. He doesn't see it because he doesn't want to see it. I had a similar incident with my EX personality disordered spouse (OCPD and NPD) and he denied ever having been abusive to me; he actually said he "had NEVER been" abusive to me and then later, repeatedly, BLAMED ME that we could not reconcile. WE divorced and that stopped that crazy conversation. Good luck to you hon. Stick with what you believe to be true and "don't knuckle under to the bully". Hugs.

[Auspicious]

The "solution" is not to play. You aren't going to change what the other person thinks.

Whether you want to remain in the relationship, given that, is up to you. Sometimes the disordered person's behavior changes, when the dynamic change. Sometimes it doesn't.

[yeeter]

wow, I am so sorry to hear that he is SO adamant at denying any responsibility that he is demanding that YOU take the "blame" for no reconciliation. I think that this is an emotional blackmail tactic. He doesn't see it because he doesn't want to see it.

 Stick with what you believe to be true and "don't knuckle under to the bully". Hugs.

Yep, this is a big part of my struggles at the moment.  My uNPD/uBPD wife really isnt 'able' to accept any responsibility.  Which means in her mind, she is quite fine and ok and happy with herself and who she is.  And she is not at all open to others (either myself or the MC) pointing out other perspectives of a particular situation.

We dont control how someone chooses to behave.

We cant 'make' someone change.

We CAN put up boundaries and refuse to let someone else define us, and/or our thinking.  (this means gaining back our own confidence and sense of self/person).

We DO NOT have to comply with the bullying (I need to repeat this to myself about 20 more times, because right now I am failing at this)

Trust yourself.  Honor your own abilities and feelings. 

Lots of hugs your way.     

[isilme]

The "solution" is not to play. You aren't going to change what the other person thinks.

Let me ask it this way:

How do other people respond when you can't just ignore the statement?

BF:  You're just doing dishes to make me feel guilty.  How can you be like that?

Me: ? At a loss.

Keep quiet = being rude in my falsely interpreted seething anger about doing dishes

"No, I'm not" = invalidating.

"I'm sorry you feel like that?" = Condescending

"You seem to feel you should be doing something to help out?" = Yes, I'd like you to do more, but I am doing dishes because I want clean plates, and not roach food on the counters, and would do them regardless of being with you or not.

"I just want to get them clean" = Continuing accusations in a new direction of being an OC freak, because he can leave them be, and just wash as needed means he's relaxed.

So trying not to play just means he keep throwing the ball and hitting me in the head, and then he changes from a base ball to a bowling ball.  Is there any way to respond to being told how I feel, other than to do what I've been trying, calmly stating I feel ABC, not XYZ, regardless of the invalidation?  I shouldn't have to stop mid-dish and walk away just to stave off negativity.  Theres' got to be a better way.

[yeeter]

A great question isilme, and I am sure you will get lots of good answers.

A part of it might be not the question of what to say or how to respond, but in changing your mental processing and what you THINK when he says these things.

"Your just doing it to make me feel guilty - how can you be like that?"

Today you might take this as a personal attack/insult (since after all, a normal person would, since normally it would be).  But this isnt a normal person.

So instead pretend like you are talking to someone with a severe mental disability.  For sure whatever he says isnt going to be processed in the same way as the rest of the world would.  Knowing this, you might have a different thought process.  More like... I know his comment isnt about me being a mean person - but he is bothered by something.  He seems to be bothered by me doing the dishes - but it cant really be that so it must be something else.  I wonder if I can learn more about it from him to help me understand more what he is going through at the moment.

So maybe the response is something like - "it must make you upset/angry at me to think that I am doing something just to make you feel bad/guilty"

Which I will guess will open the door to him saying more about how bad you make him feel at other times.  Then its more validating:  "you must get tired of being around someone all the time that makes you feel bad about yourself"

OK... Im not the expert on this - you will get better responses and I do better at some times than other times.

BUT - the point is that if you can get through this, you can sometimes learn some things that are closer to the root of what is really bothering him.  Its a pretty fair bet that its NOT you doing the dishes...  He probably knows he doesnt help out as much as he should and feels guilty about himself over it (or feels he doesnt meet your standards and thus you dont love him as much, etc etc).  At the same time, he may just not care as much about the dishes as you do (its just not a priority for him - I certainly have this with my wife, who is a hoarder, and I struggle every day with the mountains of stuff she is happy living with - but this just isnt going).

And a fine line, because if its just berating you verbally on and on then I think you DO need to take a timeout in the middle of doing the dishes.

[Auspicious]

The "solution" is not to play. You aren't going to change what the other person thinks.

Let me ask it this way:

How do other people respond when you can't just ignore the statement?

BF:  You're just doing dishes to make me feel guilty.  How can you be like that?

Me: ? At a loss.

Keep quiet = being rude in my falsely interpreted seething anger about doing dishes

"No, I'm not" = invalidating.

"I'm sorry you feel like that?" = Condescending

"You seem to feel you should be doing something to help out?" = Yes, I'd like you to do more, but I am doing dishes because I want clean plates, and not roach food on the counters, and would do them regardless of being with you or not.

"I just want to get them clean" = Continuing accusations in a new direction of being an OC freak, because he can leave them be, and just wash as needed means he's relaxed.

So trying not to play just means he keep throwing the ball and hitting me in the head, and then he changes from a base ball to a bowling ball.  Is there any way to respond to being told how I feel, other than to do what I've been trying, calmly stating I feel ABC, not XYZ, regardless of the invalidation?  I shouldn't have to stop mid-dish and walk away just to stave off negativity.  Theres' got to be a better way.

Is there any way to stop him from assailing you while you do dishes?  

None that I know of, other than not being there.

At some point, a person can make themselves un-live-with-able. It's possible.

Keep quiet = being rude in my falsely interpreted seething anger about doing dishes

So, what exactly happens when you keep quiet?


Also, what happens if you just ask him: "what do you mean?"

[isilme]

So, what exactly happens when you keep quiet?
It adds to the current state of anger at him feeling he is being ignored, and can blow up form there "Fine, don't talk to me. ranting starts in earnest and all I am doing must be stopped = wasted time"


Also, what happens if you just ask him: "what do you mean?"
I just invited a rant about what my feelings are and how I am being mean, or how I must be stupid to have to ask - can go on for over an hour if not headed off in some way

I guess basically it just happens when he has a need to blow off his anger, and since he can't do that in any other manner than to pick a fight, that's what is going on.  Dishes are just an example, but I get told a lot what I 'must' be thinking and how he knows best what's in everyone else's minds.  He can't see just how crazy that statement alone is. 

Anyway, I was just seeing if walking away was the only way not to play - if someone had some As Seen On TV type of fool-proof things that worked for them.  I was getting better at it, but as I've posted other places haven't been on my game much of late, and it's leading to more fights.  I've got hopes that a trip to my MD can help me get back into being me and help me feel stronger and more able to brush off what I can and just deal with what is unbrushable.  Sort of the BPD Serenity Prayer. 

[JustSaying]

So, what exactly happens when you keep quiet?

Also, what happens if you just ask him: "what do you mean?"

Keeping quiet and continuing to do dishes got an extended rage that turned toward how not responding was emotionally abusive.

Saying something benign--probably "I don't understand" rather than "What do you mean?"--would lead to "Oh, you aren't that stupid" followed by an extended rage. When that was her intent, nothing was getting in the way of her taking it to exhaustion.

[I see that isilme's experience was quite similar to mine.]

I was just seeing if walking away was the only way not to play

That works just to a point. X learned (in the way a virus mutates to be immune to the antibiotic ) that I would walk away from dishes, and then she'd be left alone to do them. So her 'attacks' started as I was preparing dinner. Choice to walk away had more difficult implications, including the waste of food that was then half-cooked and a D who was hungry.

As you say, a person can make themselves un-live-with-able.