I must have gotten through to him, but...

[Think About It...]

Steph,

I am in therapy.  My therapist asks me the same questions.  I am curious about this NEED to be right.  Do you mean that I believe I am right and am constantly looking for validation of that?  Because I guess I have a dilemma of feeling like I know that many of Hs behaviors are socially unacceptable or dare I say "wrong"?  Maybe I am looking for enough validation so that if I leave, I don't feel like I did the "wrong" thing.  That I was justified.  Everyone tells me to get out, yet I have chosen to stay.  Am I in the wrong therapy, since I still can't answer adequately why I stay?  H does say that it is my "insecurity" that has gotten us to where we are today.  I feel like it's my inability to live peacefully with his behaviors without being able to voice how I truly feel about them/him/etc.  But maybe my "insecurity" has a whole lot to do with it.  I am starting to feel mentally ill myself

[nowheretogo]

Steph,

I am in therapy.  My therapist asks me the same questions.  I am curious about this NEED to be right.  Do you mean that I believe I am right and am constantly looking for validation of that?  Because I guess I have a dilemma of feeling like I know that many of Hs behaviors are socially unacceptable or dare I say "wrong"?  Maybe I am looking for enough validation so that if I leave, I don't feel like I did the "wrong" thing.  That I was justified.  Everyone tells me to get out, yet I have chosen to stay.  Am I in the wrong therapy, since I still can't answer adequately why I stay?  H does say that it is my "insecurity" that has gotten us to where we are today.  I feel like it's my inability to live peacefully with his behaviors without being able to voice how I truly feel about them/him/etc.  But maybe my "insecurity" has a whole lot to do with it.  I am starting to feel mentally ill myself

[yeeter]

I don't understand H's emotions about this.  Not that it matters if I understand. 

Hi NWTG.

This sentence jumped out at me.  Try starting with this.

I think at least part of it is that you are in a power struggle of wills against each other.

You dont like him.  You dont like what he is, or is not doing.  You dont like any of his ideas on how to sort himself out.  He most likely isnt happy with his situation, and most likely has no idea what to do about it.  And is likely depressed, taking in alcohol to help escape - and likely feels he has to manage what might be felt as a very unsupportive and demanding wife.  (Im not saying you dont support him, just saying he might feel this way).  (and its tough to live with someone that is always 'right' - even if its TRUE... think about that).  And not to be rude - but I work with a lot of docs over the years... havent met a one of them that didnt have a very healthy ego - I personally believe this is a good thing given the occupation, but it might get in the way of certain relationship dynamics.

There is a great big elephant in the room about money.  You (now) have some.  He does not.  If you cant figure out a mutually acceptable way to manage this such that you both get the freedom and security and control that each of you need - then its never going to work whether a PD or not.

It might be tricky to do this in a way that doesnt come across as you using finances as a way to control behavior ("do xyz and we will share, dont do xyz and Im not paying")

Just put yourself back to the 1950's and flip the genders, and ask yourself what the model is that would be fair to women.  Then fast forward and flip genders back and ask if you are applying the same principles today.

[JustSaying]

I know that many of Hs behaviors are socially unacceptable or dare I say "wrong"

If we make decisions for ourselves and our family, they might be good and they might be bad decisions. They might turn out to be right and the might turn out to be wrong. Should I buy the playset? Should I stay in this house or sell it? Should I pay off the loan? Should I expand my business or invest in his?

If your focus is instead on his behaviors and especially the wrongness of them, you can always be right just by contrast with him, without having to put yourself out there to be right or wrong based on your own actions.

Steph raises an interesting point re your medical training. As a radiologist you're constantly having to make decisions. Is that a tumor or a shadow? Is that a fracture? It would be interesting, perhaps, for you to explore how you make decisions professionally versus personally.

[nowheretogo]

Yes, I have money now, and yes that represents control to H.  If H was someone who could make mutual decisions with me on spending etc and having a "conversation" (that we are completely unable to have), then I would feel more confident about making more funds accessible to him.  I did try something before...opened a joint account and put like $1000 a month in it, which he could access to purchase things for projects, etc.  I am not sure why I stopped that, but could try that again.  Budget a certain amount out, and when he has used it up, then that's it for the month.  Until I establish a joint checking account, he will be unhappy.  But I will never feel safe to do that as long as I am being verbally abused on a daily basis.  In fact, I don't think I will ever feel safe to do that with this particular person.  There...is that a boundary? 
I am pretty confident in myself and know that I can accomplish anything.  I guess that equates to a healthy ego.  I am in no way arrogant or rude, and consider myself very humble.  I have never set myself above those who are less educated, etc, and have always been friends with those who work "Under" me so to speak.  However, H, and only H, sees me as arrogant, know it all, etc.  Only H sees me as mean, evil, etc.

[nowheretogo]

oh, and speaking of evil, I had my first bad guy dream where H was the bad guy last night.  I was running around a city with D1, trying to escape him chasing/trying to find us.  Sought sanctuary in a church for a while, but he did find us...

[Auspicious]

Do you actually want to change the relationship for the better?

[nowheretogo]

Yes, I want it to change for the better.  But I'd be lying if I said I am completely ok with doing all of the work and making the changes myself.  I'd be lying if I said that I don't want a husband that I can actually talk with, confide in, etc.  I guess I'd be lying if I say that I don't know how to be happy knowing that he is not going to change.  He has already quit therapy, saying he doesn't need it, he wasn't helping him anyway.  We are still going to the "love and respect" marriage group at the church, but we don't even talk about it afterwards. There are probably 6/14 sessions left.  I also want sanity and peace and calm and serenity. 

[JustSaying]

I'd be lying if I said I am completely ok with doing all of the work and making the changes myself.

Is your working on yourself contingent on him doing the same?

[nowheretogo]

No, it's not.  I was working on myself long before I filed for divorce and he finally decided he wanted to "work on" the r/s.  I continue to work on myself.  It just hurts, that's all.  That I spend every spare moment in between working trying to sort through all of this, and honestly trying to figure out what I can do to make it better, or at least stop making it worse as you say.  I continue to go to therapy.  H doesn't.  In his eyes, nothing is working, because "you haven't changed at all."  I can't say that I don't feel the same way about him, but I know I am trying.  And I think he thinks he is trying too, but I don't see it.  Every once in a while, there is a glimpse of some effort, so I believe that he is trying at least sometimes.  It is just exhausting and seems UNFAIR.  And I'm sure someone like argyle will point out that IT IS.  Maybe I'm just not a nice enough person to endure this.

[Steph]

Steph,

I am in therapy.  My therapist asks me the same questions.  I am curious about this NEED to be right.  Do you mean that I believe I am right and am constantly looking for validation of that?  Because I guess I have a dilemma of feeling like I know that many of Hs behaviors are socially unacceptable or dare I say "wrong"?  Maybe I am looking for enough validation so that if I leave, I don't feel like I did the "wrong" thing.  That I was justified.  Everyone tells me to get out, yet I have chosen to stay.  Am I in the wrong therapy, since I still can't answer adequately why I stay?  H does say that it is my "insecurity" that has gotten us to where we are today.  I feel like it's my inability to live peacefully with his behaviors without being able to voice how I truly feel about them/him/etc.  But maybe my "insecurity" has a whole lot to do with it.  I am starting to feel mentally ill myself

 You may well have your own mental illness going on. I sure did. I was working in psych at the time and didnt even begin to see it, until I landed here.

 Your husband may also be onto something, when he talks about your insecurity..not that is the whole deal, but it sure could be your half of things

 It sounds like you guys are both into playing the kids game of " I know you are, but what am I?" How about stopping that, and concentrate on yourself and your life, allowing him to live his?

Now, I am curious about his drinking. Alcoholism could be whats really going on here. That causes crazy in your life like nothing else..and I strongly suggest Alanon for you, so you can get unplugged from him.

Codependancy can look like you are looking, too...fixing, doing, controlling and expecting others to behave certain ways because of all you have done.

You both need work on yourselves..Hard telling if you will want each other, should you both get well. The insecurity and low self esteem stuff is pretty destructive to you AND the marriage as well.

I can see how he sees you as controlling and arrogant. If he were an equal partner, stuff wouldnt be the way it is. You tend to dole out money to him, etc etc, which translates to him as being controlling, that you dont trust him, etc. Can you see how he might feel that way? Can you take a step back and look at your relationship from HIS point of view, and get your own stuff out of the way, and be able to see what he is seeing? That can be pretty humbling.
I am NOT Saying the money thing should or shouldnt change, but what I am asking is...are you able to see how controlling and dominant and arrogant you may seem, to him? And if so, are you able to understand how that would feel to him? And if so, are you willing to do your part with this?

On the outside looking in, from his viewpoint, I get it. I do. I "speak BPD" pretty well, and I can see how hard this is on him, and I can pretty much anticipate what is underneath it for him. He isnt happy, he doesnt feel equal and likely, he feels like you shove his nose in it too often.. Can you see how that might be the case? All I am asking you to do is try to see it from his viewpoint...not defend, explain or rationalize why and how you do what you do. Simply, can you see his side AND can you muster empathy for it?

Once I was able to do that, SO much changed for us...and it was very humbling for me. Yet, thats when we were able to begin to heal.


Steph

[nowheretogo]

I can see his viewpoint.  I don't fully understand it because I feel like I have given him nearly everything he has asked for.  But yes, I can see how he sees things.  I can.  I am getting pretty good at knowing how he thinks and sees the world.  I can have some empathy for him, too.  I will just have to keep trying.

He does drink quite a bit.  Probably 6-8 drinks per night.  Usually from 4 or 5 pm until he goes to bed.  It's an addiction, I can tell.  He can not admit that there is a problem.  I *think* he has had this problem likely since teenage years.

As far as the insecurity goes, I don't feel insecure.  I don't feel like an ahole either, but you sure just made me feel like one

Anyhow, time to keep on keeping on trying to make things better.

Thanks again.

[JustSaying]

I feel like I have given him nearly everything he has asked for

That's not the route to an equal partnership.

If he were an equal partner

If that's even possible.

How does one determine if having an equal partner is possible, particularly given the possible presence of a PD and alcoholism?

[isilme]

If he's drinking that much, you might benefit from looking at Alanon - BPD alone is hard.  Alcohol abuse = hard.  BPD + Alcohol abuse = insanely hard.

People living with substance abusers and addictive behaviors, we learn to basically be co-dependent, and make the other person and their feelings and needs, AND the need to keep the family drama on the 'down low' a higher concern than our own feelings and needs.  We neglect what we want and need, do too much and enable our addicted or mentally ill person to continue merrily down their path to self destruction, all while we start to feel helpless and powerless to stop the whole family from following. 

I have a lot of this to work on on my end - it's pretty painful, and I had to take a break until I can get more stable (hard living with BF, but not impossible), but will continue.  I managed to try to validate him some last night, and his frustrations at not doing things himself that are totally within his power to do if he's just do them.  He listed his grocery list of problems, and I told him that must be very frustrating.  Somehow, that helped and he calmed down.  Of late, I'd not even been able to manage to do much validation, so it was a small, Hurray.   

People keep asking why we all stay in these r/s's, and the simple answer is we, too, have something not mentally healthy that it fulfills.  For me I know it meets a lot of what felt 'normal' in my parents' household.  Did you have someone who made you feel like you should be a caretaker?  I think you are an MD - does your desire to help people heal at work maybe carry over too much to wanting to 'help' your H, but instead kinda enables him?  Like the Daycare - you don't have a problem with the set up.  He does.  He is an adult.  He has more free time.  HE should be the one contacting them about changing D1's room, not you.  But he TOLD you to do it, and you didn't question why HE didn't do it, but whether YOU should. 

Not to thread-jack, but though it put him in a foul mood, BF called his student loan people today to take care of being late.  I don't think he finished setting up payments, as he needed stuff fomr home to do so, but it's a start.

[Steph]

 Just fyi..Alcoholism sure looks like BPD and its pretty hard to know if he has BPD if he has always been drinking. Ya know? It may be alcoholism.


And that makes sense..

Likely, there is alcoholism in your family somewhere, which could be that stronghold it has on you. Codepedancy sneaks in there, and its an addiction-like situation all its own!

I completely agree that it makes sense to get to Alanon. It is tremendously supportive and you will meet many people there to really help you untangle the coalcoholism...

If the enabling of the drinking stops, lots will change! How do you feel about that?

[JustSaying]

He is not living on an allowance and she does not need to support him. He was making $17/h until Aug and is now collecting unemployment in a comparable amount! And he uses that for vehicle, alcohol, tobacco, lottery tickets. And she's carrying a medical school loan and the cost of setting up an office, plus her income pays for daycare, mortgage, utilities, groceries, and more. And she's supposed to give him--an alcoholic--even more of her income that should go toward reducing a six-figure school loan? She's being responsible with finances, he's being wasteful, and for this she owes him even more to waste?

At $15/h, he could collect the sum he needed for one of his business ventures in a month or two of his unemployment! He could solve his own financial problems and become a productive and contributing member of the family without being beholden to her. This is within his power today. It's fine if they want to work together for a mutually-beneficial solution, but I don't understand why the financially responsible party is supposed to fund the non-productivity of the wasteful party, and especially one whose primary expenses are alcohol, tobacco, and gambling. Now that seems like enabling.

[JustSaying]

As far as I know, there are no financial rules for people married and living together. Each can toss everything into a joint acct or they can keep everything separate and come to whatever accommodation they wish. There is certainly no requirement I've ever known for the higher-earning spouse to split disposable income. Post-separation and post-divorce, certainly. Married? It'd be irresponsible of her, in my opinion, to fund his vices at the expense of her very real obligations.

[isilme]

My mother was entitled to about half my father's retirement payments following the divorce in Texas... and that was a divorce where he drew up the papers, filled in everything and tried to finagle every bit for himself.  Her only option in the divorce, being destitute at the time, was to sign it.  She had no money to gt an attorney to contest it.

So yes, I believe in most states a married couple's income and assets are assumed 50/50 unless other paperwork, like a pre-nup, has been filed.

As for during marriage, no, I don't think there are really rules, unless taken to court, but to the H it can very well look like his W is playing Mommy to him, which of course he will resent.  I think Argyle was looking for an equitable split of cash that the H could not complain about - spending money AFTER savings and bills.

I think a lot of factors are at play here - Alcoholism, possible PD, bruised male ego by having a W make more money then him, resentment on both sides, unequal responsibilities, etc.

Personally, I think from my experience the resentment is the worst. You can love around anger, sadness, despair and even rage... but resentment is the path towards devaluing and later hating someone.  Resentment lingers, and grows.

If her H can keep this PT job - kudos to him.  It's something.  If he can deal with daycare on his own - he deserves some praise (yes, like a kid, he needs praise to know you saw him be good, and so he can see he can get attention in positive ways, too).  I'm hoping earning some money MIGHT encourage a spark of self reliance.  Which in turn can help dissolve some of the resentment between the W and H.

In the past few years, one statement from BF that got to me was after his first week working the same schedule as me, 40 hours M-F.  He'd been getting onto me for years when I'd just want a nap after work on Fridays, before having to clean and entertain or go meet with friends.  I wanted to see them, but sometimes exhaustion won, or it was hard to wake up and be merry and entertaining.

So that first week, BF looked at me on that Friday and said, "Wow... NOW I understand how you are so tired."  He can't empathize - only sympathize.  

And if the OPs H can keep his job, maybe it'll cut into drinky drinky time, or he'll value it enough to want to be alert.  BF's drinking, which was never in the day time and never alone, took a serious hit, and has dropped to almost once every few months, since he's been working FT.

Anyway, I am hoping this is a good step, and if the OP can learn when to validate and when to set a boundary, they both can benefit.

[doryswimsagain]

Oy vey, nowheretogo. Where to begin...(just remember that you asked for it!)

1.) You cannot fix him. I think Argyle made a profound point (and one that I had touched on before as well). You are an extremely strong, woman --  dare I second the "arrogant" implication? (God knows I am!).  You can solve the world's problems at work. You can move mountains. All true.

You. Cannot. Fix. Him. You need to fix YOU.

You are too smart for your own good, nowhere. Highly intelligent people can explain their way through anything. You can persuade yourself to believe that anything is possible.  If you want to find a reason to stay, you will convince yourself that he did something good today. That that last fight was really your fault.  If you want to proceed with divorce, you will focus on the ugliness and persuade yourself to believe there is no hope. And the problem with all of this is that you are not focusing on you. You are focusing on the situation and how you can manipulate it into what it once was: "perfect".

No doubt you have some pretty strong negotiating skills? STOP using them on yourself, and face the reality of what is going on in your life and in your head.  Accept that you cannot handle it. Embrace therapy. Start yourself on a 12 step program. Surrender to it. Get an outside source for help and follow their instructions. If, when you've done that and the dust settles, there is still a marriage to be had, cherish it. If not, perhaps you will have found YOU again.

2.) Codependent No More. Have you read it yet? hmmmmmmm?

3. Your Need to be Right.  I have spent some serious hours pondering a statement X made the week I filed. He claimed that I did everything better. I was the reason we had built our wealth. I was better with the kids. I was better at finances. I was better at cleaning the house. H felt like he didn't contribute as much and that he wasn't in control of our life. He was causing problems because he knew he could push me to divorce and that was the one thing he could make happen effectively. Sick? Yes. But I still spent hours trying to figure out if it meant I had belitteld him and fed off of the satisfaction that came with being the one who was right.
 
I was often right. Us nons usually are. But that was not what killed my marriage.  There was not solution to his frustrations. If I had done less, I would have been lazy. But that was not who I was. Whatever I did, it would have been wrong.  This was the burden that ended up breaking me. I have done the grueling work that was required to arrive at this truth. I sleep better at night, knowing it. What is your thruth, nowhere?

My T suggested that some men, particularly those who are disordered cannot handle strong(er) women in the first place.  We compound this because despite the pain of the relationship, there is a subconscious satisfaction that comes with being right.  It is suggested that this causes us to propogate the cycle, instead of breaking it. The effect is a heavy dose of resentment from him that can be crippling.  For a BPD who is already programmed to look for the nearest fight, this is a built-in achilles heel. One I knew I would never be able to overcome.     

4. Equalize the Responsibilities. I'm not a T or an expert on anything (other than my own mess, of course) but I have got to believe that if you are to stay and it is to work, you are going to have to balance out the workload responsibility and accountablilty in your home. Perhaps this is something  MC could address.

I am pulling for you, Nowhere. I know that you will find your answers. The hard part is going to be convincing yourself not to bury them anymore   I knwo this is not the person you want to be. You are consumed with negativity, and it shows in yhour posts. Dig deep and find your hope and your optimism. It is in there, I promise.

[isilme]

Even in non-PD, non susbtance abusing marraiges, chores and duties are never really split 50/50.

One couple I know, the H is a farmer, the W a student.  He does physical labor all day, sometimes 12+hr 7 day weeks during busy periods.  And she does not mow the lawn or do the 'man' work, but expect him to keep up with it. 

Another couple, the H works FT, and since the W became a SAHM, he still does all the yardwork, and much of the housework, and until recently when she realized taking care of kids and the house IS possible when you're not working, he did the grocery shopping, too.

I think a good thing is to find what your BPD SO can and will do reliably.  And let them.  And accept what they won't.  BF will die before he does dishes.  He did them once in about 5 years, as a birthday gift to me.  I cried.  Except when he gets on a rant about who does more (I think usually out of guilt when he knows the real answer) and tries to downplay what I do, if I weren't so emotionally distraught at the way he's saying it, it'd almost be funny as we and everyone else knows I do the housework and yardwork, and work FT.  He works FT and takes one class a semester.  But I know, and can usually accept that doing well at work and class is the most he can manage without melting down each night.  I can usually accept his limitations, and accept that clean dishes and empty trash, mowed lawns mean more to me than him, and do them as I can.

Like Argyle has said, you can let things slide and still the pwBPD will not address them - it's not a case of them being mean and not doing them (I don't think, usually), it's something with the wiring making it insurmountable to clean a bookcase, too muc effort to remember what time an appointment is, or when something is due.  BF can do well in a very narrow range of focus.  If he loses sight of his immediate goal, and lets him self ruminate over the future, he's lost. 

[Auspicious]

As far as I know, there are no financial rules for people married and living together.

As always, check with a lawyer, but that is the truth for our state.

When my wife ran off, and was demanding money from me (calling it "adequate support" or something like that), the expensive lawyer I reluctantly retained told me that unless or until a court order said otherwise, I was under no obligation whatsoever to fund some separate household that she had decided to set up. No more than she was under any obligation to send me money because she had left the kids with me. Not until a court decided otherwise.

(Now granted, if you think you may end up in court, it probably wouldn't look good to go blow the family savings account in Vegas the week beforehand. But beyond that ... )