I must have gotten through to him, but...

[Think About It...]

After the blowup on Wed. about the ad for a home inspector job, H said to me yesterday that he might be getting a job.  I must have gotten through to him, but boy did it take going through the fire.  He applied for a job transporting people with some transportation company.  I'm not sure if it's PT or FT, but he said $13/hr and flexible schedule.  He likes that he wouldn't work everyday, and that he wouldn't be in an office.  Being in a location where he can be held accountable is unacceptable to him.  Anyway, I am thinking that he thought I was right to some extent, after he cooled off.  Either that or he wants to establish himself better in order to separate (I wish but doubt).  Anyway, it's just hard to swallow that I had to go through that awful night to get to this.  It's like a teenager who can't admit to his parents that they are right.  I am trying to feed into his only emotion (anger) less. 

Today he got pulled over for a speeding ticket that carries a $165 fine and possibly points.  (47 in a 25 mph zone)  I know he is feeling terrible.  We were texting about.  I said I know you must feel terrible.  It could have been worse.  At least you weren't in an accident.  I did not offer to pay the fine, although I know this is highly hoped for if not expected.  Comments?

[nowheretogo]

After the blowup on Wed. about the ad for a home inspector job, H said to me yesterday that he might be getting a job.  I must have gotten through to him, but boy did it take going through the fire.  He applied for a job transporting people with some transportation company.  I'm not sure if it's PT or FT, but he said $13/hr and flexible schedule.  He likes that he wouldn't work everyday, and that he wouldn't be in an office.  Being in a location where he can be held accountable is unacceptable to him.  Anyway, I am thinking that he thought I was right to some extent, after he cooled off.  Either that or he wants to establish himself better in order to separate (I wish but doubt).  Anyway, it's just hard to swallow that I had to go through that awful night to get to this.  It's like a teenager who can't admit to his parents that they are right.  I am trying to feed into his only emotion (anger) less. 

Today he got pulled over for a speeding ticket that carries a $165 fine and possibly points.  (47 in a 25 mph zone)  I know he is feeling terrible.  We were texting about.  I said I know you must feel terrible.  It could have been worse.  At least you weren't in an accident.  I did not offer to pay the fine, although I know this is highly hoped for if not expected.  Comments?

[isilme]

I did not offer to pay the fine, although I know this is highly hoped for if not expected.  Comments?

Next figure out the answer if you are ask

BF has not paid his/our property tax this year, it's late, and while I can't pay it, I could help with about half if it's needed.  But I pay for the car, all utilities bills and some groceries (groceries varies with who can get to the store, last 6 months it's been all me) most of take out food, and any of my own expenses - RXs, glasses, clothes, student and other debt.  He pays car/house insurance (his idea), property tax, some groceries, things like Netflix and Xbox Live, and then he's supposed to be paying his own student debt (not doing that, either).  So I can't tell where his money is going if he's not paying on his loans and his parents helped with this semester of school and he's not paying the property tax.  And he's telling me he wants to take over the utilities so I can't "accuse" him of not paying for anything (Hello - that's what he does to me).  Apparently he can't do math - I could move out and live in a tiny apartment on my own... he can't pay for all his obligations without me, not and have money for more than eeking by. 

So I am waiting to see what happens with both the Loans and Property Tax, keeping quiet so as not to be accused of trying to be his mom.    But I am not offering to pay it unless he tells me it's needed - I'd have no problem helping pay it, if he didn't accuse me all the time of paying nothing and throwing in my face how "he" came up with the money for the house (his  grandmother wanted her kids to have their inheritance while she was alive - so SHE paid for the house).

I'm glad your H is getting a job.  BF shirked jobs for about 3 years, and had dropped out of school and I was supporting him that whole time.  It took a chance part time job coming open to get him proud of earning his own money to make him realize that he would feel better if he made more money and people would stop looking at me as the breadwinner (it was kinda obvious since I worked 60 hours weeks, sometimes insane 16 hour days, while he was out all night and home sleeping all day who was earning the paycheck - but he thought I was blabbing to our friends who had the money). 

So maybe this is a step to your H getting a FT job, later, or finally being able to launch that home business.  Has he done research into home business legalities?  Other than money, is he ready?

[nowheretogo]

isilme,

hopefully this will lead to a job, but I am definitely NOT counting my chickens.  I mean he wants a job where noone can tell him what he can or cannot do, he doesn't want to be in an office, he doesn't want to work nights or weekends.  The way I see it, he doesn't want to work.  I will not be at all surprised if he doesn't get or take this job because of some reason like those above.

He does not have a business plan that I can tell other than if I just "support him", ie, hand out money for anything he suggests or sees as necessary, that he will succeed.  He has done very little research that I know of.  He has applied for a PI license.  He is relying on other PIs he knows to "give him work" early on.  He is relying on friends that have other jobs to help him when he does get work. 

He is constantly on online auction sites and asking me to buy things that are for sale on them so that he can try to sell them to make money.  I have refused.  He recently used his own credit card to buy 3 printers, a passport photo camera, 6 police type radios, and some knives...for a cost of $650.  He has not sold any of it.  He has said he could use some of it for his business, but is trying to sell all of it.  Is convinced he will make hundreds of dollars, but hasn't made a cent yet.  Wants me to put in money to fix the printers.  I work FT as a physician and he collects unemployment, making essentially what he was making before he lost his job in August (around $17/hr).  Yes, there is a large discrepancy.

In our home, I pay ALL of the bills...my student loans, daycare, insurances, mortgage, electric, phone, truck, camper, carpet, appliances, piano you name it...I pay for most of the groceries.  He pays his car payment, for his alcohol, his chewing tobacco, gas for the truck that he drives, and for some groceries and odds and ends for projects around the house, etc. 

He constantly complains that he has no money and about how frugal I am. I give him money here and there to help out.  He complains that I don't want to have fun that what am I going to do, take the money to my grave with me?  He wastes money on lottery tickets every week.  He complains that I save money and could care less if we saved for retirement or for the kids' future.  He goes out to lunch with the neighbors, and complains that he doesn't have any money. 

He feels entitled to our tax return because he used to get a refund every year before he married me, and the return was "supposed to pay off his car".  He wants to have NO expenses and has no qualms with me shouldering all of them and him constantly asking me to fund anything under the sun that he can think of.

Though I work full time I am told that my job is "real demanding" and that he would be just as good at it if he just watched me.  I am told that I flaunt my big job/paycheck around (really?).  He has never offered a dime towards my loans or anything.  I am told that I do nothing except 'play with the kids all day'.  Our daughter is 22 mos old and needs constant supervision.  If you've ever had any kids, this is more work than play.  Might I want to rest when I come home from work?  I am told he cooks dinner every single day...bs...nope.  Probably averages 3 or 4 days a week.  And if it's more than that, at least a couple of dinners are heat up in the microwave or frozen pizza type deals (ie, so what).  He claims he makes dinner while watching the kids.  BS.  He gets the kids at like 5 and dinner is almost never started when I get home at 6.

I am curious to hear what happens with your Loans and Property Tax, and omg, did I ramble on.  I am so sorry!  You are in a more difficult situation, because you make less money probably.  My situation is more about boundaries, I guess.  ie, he should probably face the consequence for speeding on his own, not get bailed out by me...i dunno.  I really don't know what the right things to do are anymore.

Keep me posted about your BF.

[Steph]

 So, as I read this, the thought that keeps coming in to me is this

" She really doesnt like this guy very much at all" and " why are they together?"

You are loaded with resentment, he feels horribly inferior, likely has an alcohol addiction...You dont need his income to thrive...and there is just a ton of anger/resentment/ill will going on.

What are you willing to do to change things?

He truly cannot, if he is an untreated person with BPD and also, perhaps, an untreated alcoholic. As UFN says..You cannot teach a duck to bark.

 So..you are an MD, with a professional career in a relationship/marriage with a guy who isnt working, who gives you a ton of grief, who you dont seem to get much from, and probably has an alcohol addiction and does have a serious mental illness...You have made it clear that you are making all of the money, and he contributes little.

Why is this important...he isnt going to change...and why are you with him?

[isilme]

Rambling is what I am known for - no worries.

So your H hasn't said, "I want a home business to make sprockets."  He just wants to be able to make money without a boss, or set times to be busy?

I'm not sure how my salary measures up to most at under 30K (graphic designer), I know I've been underpaid for my education and experience my entire career, but part of that is the region, and part of that is women around here tend to make 10,000 less a year than men, and I have no kids so they don't feel bad paying me less, if that makes sense.  BF makes less than I do, but more than I made when I started working, and I had a degree and he does not.  He's mad I make more, forgetting I've been in my career for 12 years now - he only started working FT 5 years ago.  

Also, he's frustrated that even though together we're just under 50K a year (which would be awesome if I made that alone) we tend to live paycheck to paycheck, with me trying to squirrel away some for later, and him supposedly saving for the Property Tax in January... He doesn't understand that A) I had no parents to help me, so I started out pretty low on the ladder and have scraped t where I am now.  An though he tries to deny it (as he did Sunday night) I supported him for a long time, one a one-person salary B) A lot of our friends have affluent families, who make more than his retired teacher mom and his farmer dad.  They had to work, but their parents can help with all manner of things, from car payments to weddings and honeymoons.  So they can run off the Italy and we can't even go to a city 4 hours away sometimes.  

I am no saint and have mad plenty of money mistakes -  after the years of stretching myself thin to support us, being ashamed to ask his family for help, and having none of my own, I got into the bad habit os using debt for holidays and even groceries if it was more than I could cover with my paycheck, and am digging out of that hole, and having to be hard on myself to do it.  So a lot of my money is going to paying off that, while I am trying to break my own bad habits of running up more debt at Christmas and birthdays.  I'll do okay until mid summer, and then fall back into my own hole... so that is my weakness.  And I admit shame about debt has me not being frank with BF about having it - my own fleas and he'd freaked out in the past, not understanding that I couldn't support two people on my paycheck, and I was a lot less adept at dealing with him - I was a SUPER enabler as opposed to a sometimes when I just can't stand the fight enabler.  If I can just stick to my plan I will be okay in a few months and able to snowball payments to speed up my credit repair.  

BF just doesn't care to keep up with things.  He's meticulous at work, and about some things at home, but he can go a whole month without checking his bank account until the last week.  Me, I check every weekday to tally what bills have cleared, what's pending and enter it onto my little spreadsheet/register.  We keep our money separate, and so I have no idea what he's spending or when, what he's paid or not.  And though I have credit card debt, he has 5 times the student loan debt for many semesters he'd go, then drop out, go then drop out, and kept the money.  So he owes upwards of 60K and is not consistent in paying.  Even with my student loan and car I am under 15K - and the car will be paid off next summer = more snowballing if needed, and I haven't missed a payment on anything in about 10 years.  

BF tried making things for sale on eBay for a while, but the time and expense were not going to pay off.  Eventually even he saw it.  I've got some things I'd like to sell, unused dance clothes, and just haven't taken the time to put them up (need to photograph them - can use me as the model, but I want people to actually BUY the things :P).  

Now BF is onto wanting to spend a lot of money, his money to be truthful, on a publishing venture so he can try to live his dream of working in writing and/or sequential art.  My biggest problem with this is the slew of great but unfinished ideas floating around on the PC and in half finished paintings and drawings.  I've never seen him finish a project, save a few submissions of short stories.  I want to believe he will do this, and want to be supportive, but I can't get excited over it - and he can tell and gets mad at me.  part of that must be due to the depression I am currently fighting - I am very apathetic, but a lot of it he's cried wolf so many times, I need to see progress to feel excited.  I am hoping it works because of course I want him to realize his dream  but I know how easily he gets stalled and don't want on that roller coaster.  At least not until it is at least at the top of the track and I can see the ride will finish.  THEN I can share his enthusiasm.  

I have a few small crafts type things I am making in my spare time at night to see if my friends with Etsy stores might sell for a percentage, and one has a shop in town and will sell for a commission, but am not banking on quitting my job over it - it'd just be nice for some extra cash for things I like to make, anyway.  I can only have so many little crocheted dolls and such.  

What did he plan on doing with the printers?

Does your H make anything?  Do you think he'd be happy doing some sort of service for people?  Like landscaping or house painting or dog walking?  Does he have any skills that he might enjoy using to make money, like carpentry?  What does he like to do?  

Lol about the heat and serve - I admit to doing that plenty of times, but BF feels he still does all the cooking (he's picky so I let him) even though he hasn't made dinner more than once in months.  BF's part time job was actually working at and later running an after school daycare - if taking care of kids is so 'easy' them maybe your H should look into that. (IT was still BF's favorite job - the kids were innocently feeding his need to be admired, he got to play with them most of the time, and since they liked him, he felt good about himself).   Maybe your H is worried about being invalidated by a boss so much he needs something less traditional than a 40/hr a week job? 
I don't know where you live, but I think if he was earning his own way, a lot of your anger could decrease.

I have felt your resentment, and I was worried about leaving out of a lot of FOG but also BF was still someone I love.  Him getting that PT job REALLY helped.  As I let go of my anger, he got better, too.  And as he felt more pride at being able to work and do well, and got praise fro kids and parents and teachers, he felt more confidence about applying for the FT job he has.  And while he can still find reasons to be upset about income and responsibilities, and not be good at keeping up with them, it IS still an improvement over the guy who went drinking most nights and stayed home most days. 

Maybe the drinking is partly due to a sense of depression over knowing he's not the breadwinner - that's important to a lot of guys.  I know BF is also upset when he perceives that people look more to me to know about technical aspects of our jobs, which by now are quite similar.  So maybe your H is intimidated a little by your (I;m assuming) high education and pay-scale (even if he was working, with his training/education and experience would he make a comparable amount)?  I wonder if he has a "why try, she's 'beating me'?" feeling about it?

BPD seems to be all about baby steps.  So be positive about this PT job.  Hopefully it will lead to better things for you both

[JustSaying]

I must have gotten through to him, but boy did it take going through the fire.

I'd be hesitant to draw this conclusion. It suggests that you can do something that will cause a change in his behavior, and while the change will be reluctantly made, it will happen if only you harass him enough about it. It will lead you to believe that you can cause him to do as you'd like by getting on his case more. Is that really the pattern of a healthy relationship?

And yeah, Steph, why are these ladies with these men?

Maligned, don't get me started! But then, I could imagine someone looking over our shoulders asking, "why are these men with these ladies?"

[Steph]

And yeah, Steph, why are these ladies with these men?

Maligned, don't get me started! But then, I could imagine someone looking over our shoulders asking, "why are these men with these ladies?"

 Indeed...Looking back, I wasnt exactly all sweetness and light! In fact, some people DID ask my H what he saw in me...I was controlling and dominant, manipulative and "always right"..Not exactly a prize and I didnt have a major mental illness to blame it on, either ! 

[nowheretogo]

Thank you all for your valid points.  I am with him because I decided to try to make it work.  To go into more details than that would get way too confusing right now.

I have a question to ask all of you.

Yesterday H got a speeding ticket.  He texted me about it and I guess stayed mad about it all day.  When I came home, he was angry, of course.  And he yelled at me about this.  Our D1 is in daycare and several mos ago my exBF and his fiancee enrolled their D1 in the same and they are now in the same class.  H picks up the kids and sometimes runs into fiancee and other D1 and is obviously very bothered by this.  Enough that he asked the daycare to take D1 out of that room.  Nothing really came of that.  Yesterday it was "You will either call tomorrow and tell them to take D1 out of that room or I will pull her out of that daycare!  I've asked you nicely to take of this before and it hasn't been taken care of!"  (asked my nicely before was pretty much the same you see here).  In my classic style, I don't respond.  But now I am wondering what to do?  She would be moved out of that room in one month when she turns 2 anyhow.  Do I call them and be honest and say that H is demanding that I do this?  I feel like an idiot to even call.  H uses S6 as an excuse saying he feels awkward when they go to get D1 and fiancee and other D1 are there, that he feels obligated to interact with other D1.  From what I can tell, S6 is a normal little kid that loves both sisters, and I have never heard him say anything about thinking it's weird or bad that both sisters are in the same class.  They just are.  HELP!

[Auspicious]

I am with him because I decided to try to make it work. 

I think the deeper question is what drew you to this?  What was attractive about somebody who acts that way? What do you get out of being the harassed, always right one? Or the rescuer? 

Sometimes it helps to understand our own motivations so we can change our behavior. Unlike our SO's mind, we can read our own mind.

Do I call them and be honest and say that H is demanding that I do this? 

He can't "demand" that you do anything. Can he?

[JustSaying]

Do I call them and be honest and say that H is demanding that I do this?

Here's a chance to answer the question for yourself. You can decide what it is that you want to happen, and communicate that clearly to H and/or to day care, depending on what it is you want. Or you can impute what H wants, and go represent that to the day care, while making it clear that it's not your wish at all and so you're free of any responsibility regardless of their decision.

Which approach requires honesty and which gives you another excuse to avoid taking a stand for yourself?

[nowheretogo]

ok, JS, I think I will call and say that H is very concerned about D1 being in the same classroom with other D1 as he has expressed to you previously.  He is saying that he will pull D1 from the daycare if she is not moved.  It is not my wish to remove her from the daycare, because I like it very much, and I think keeping routines for little ones is very important.  Is there any way that you can move her early or any other way that you can work with me/us to try to prevent us from having to move her away from this facility?

Can you feed me back on this idea, JS, or others?

Well, he can demand, but he can't actually make me do.

And your questions,

I think the deeper question is what drew you to this?  What was attractive about somebody who acts that way? What do you get out of being the harassed, always right one? Or the rescuer?  

Auspicious, are the ones I still can not answer, except for to say I DO NOT KNOW.  I don't know.  I don't like it.  There was no abuse in my family.  I do not need him.  I don't even want him.  I am just too timid to make the moves to get out for fear of possible consequences regarding H's behavior.

[nowheretogo]

I am also thinking of saying nothing to the daycare, and saying to H, I know you are really concerned and it seems unfair, but she will be moved in a few weeks anyway.  I can ask them, and hopefully they can accommodate us, but if they can't, it will be only a short period of time before they are separated.  What else could I add to be validating, supportive, empathetic, etc.?

[JustSaying]

I've got to work on not being so vague.

The honest approach, to me, is to only say what you believe. "I would like D1 moved now" or "I would like D1 to not be moved until she's 2". Make a decision and be responsible for it.

When you say, "H wants D1 moved, and I don't really agree with that, but maybe you can do it anyway," you aren't taking responsibility for your own thoughts.

###

You just added the second option while I was writing this, and that's the one where you finally almost take responsibility for how you feel, but even then continue to couch it in weak protestations that let you evade committing yourself to a position. What's wrong with saying to H, "D1 is doing great in her current class. She will be moved to another class in a month. It's not helpful to her to be moved and then move again. S6 is fine. This will resolve itself without any other changes."

Maybe another member can reword that in proper S.E.T. form.

If your belief is that D1 is fine and S6 is fine, then why would you say or do anything else? H's demand for an immediate change is part of the pattern that includes demands for paying for this career and then that career, or this bill and that bill. It's all haphazard with regard only for how he feels in the moment, and without regard for how anyone else feels or is affected. If D1 is in the right class, why would you change? Even worse, why would you be against the change but go and ask for it anyway?

Does taking action against your best instincts to placate H actually work? Does it improve behaviors? Or does it lead to more of the same?

[nowheretogo]

JS, thanks for that lightbulb post!  Very helpful.  I truly think that D1 and S6 are both fine.  How could D1 know any better, first off, and S6 loves his sisters. 

Does taking action against your best instincts to placate H actually work? Does it improve behaviors? Or does it lead to more of the same?

Great questions!  It really doesn't work.  It just leads to more disrespect, because he sees how weak I am.  It leads to more attempts to break me down and more attempts to control me in every way.

I am starting to get it, at least a little.

[Auspicious]

 

BTW, you can still be emotionally validating, if you want to. Emotional validation isn't about agreeing with courses of action.

"I can see why you'd feel uncomfortable running into such and such every day. That does have to feel awkward." (or whatever - I confess to not grasping all the details - but you do know them, so you can come up with some kind of emotional validation).

Again, emotional validation is completely different from and has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with courses of action, facts, etc.

[nowheretogo]

Thanks, Auspicious.  The weirdness about emotional validation in this case is that he claims it is D1 and S6 that have the problem.  He doesn't want D1 "drug into this mess" and feelings of awkwardness it creates for S6 (made up by H, I think).  I guess I can just put it out there and say that I see that this really upsets you.  But where do I go from there?  And when I tell him that the kids are fine and will be ok without making any drastic changes, the problem is that he disagrees, and may shout "You always want to be in control of everything!  I'm taking her out of daycare!"  What is my recourse then?  Or how do I face the music if he asks me if I called them today, and then I say no, and then he reverts to pulling her out of daycare because I didn't do what he said to do?  Can he even just pull her out?  See how he creates these fears and uncertainties in me that really do control me to some extent?  I really do FEEL like I need to at least call, so that he can't say "I told you if you didn't..." 

[Auspicious]

I guess I can just put it out there and say that I see that this really upsets you.  But where do I go from there? 

Why do you have to go anywhere from there?  He is upset, you hear that and empathize.

Can he even just pull her out? 

Maybe. He is her parent as much as you, right?

I don't know what a daycare would do, if you each gave them contradictory instructions. You might want to seek a local legal opinion about that.

If two parents really can't agree on important childrearing decisions, ultimately it ends up in legal processes. Hopefully it won't come to that, unless you want it to. But it might, if he is determined to oppose you.

[nowheretogo]

I guess you're right.  I don't know.  I'm always trying to imagine what comes next.

He probably could pull her out.  But if I disagree, we either have to put her in another daycare, or fight about it.  I don't want to move S6, he's been there for over two years and loves it, and they transport back and forth from school, etc.  I guess they could be in separate centers, but that seems a bit silly.

I don't understand H's emotions about this.  Not that it matters if I understand.  But it's my ex's fiancee and their D1!  You think I would be the one upset if any.  But they are two little girls who know nothing of the situation.  And if I happened to run into fiancee while picking up the kids (I haven't yet), and she has been nasty to me in the past, although we've never met face to face, I would just plain ignore her.  Maybe she enrolled D1 just to get reactions from me/us.  Why should I react?  It's not affecting me?  Why is it affecting him?

[JustSaying]

because I didn't do what he said to do

Is this the relationship you accept? Is this how you define your role? Is this consistent with your boundaries?

There's a section of the article BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence
 that reads: "A key to values/ boundaries is knowing your inner self: your beliefs, desires, needs, and intuitions.  When you know your inner self, it will become nearly impossible for someone else to manipulate you.  None of us who were hurt by our borderline in adult relationships had healthy boundaries in place."

[Steph]

  A couple of ideas

I think therapy would help you...alot.

Somehow, this relationship is reaching into a place so unfamiliar with you that  even you have no idea why you are still there.

My best guess is that you are not a timid person. You would have been eaten alive in medical school and residency, etc. Yet, you made it thru, are well educated and professional. There is SOME reason you are hooked into him. Therapy sounds like an amazing place to start.

   Re the daycare...

You: I dont think its necessary to move d1. Can you help me understand why it is so important to you? I would like to work out a solution with you.

and then LISTEN..really listen..and then, emotionally validate. Perhaps he cannot handle the feelings of jealousy and angst and insecurity he feels when he knows their child is with yours. It could simply be a huge and painful emotional trigger. Ignoring him is not a good idea, but emotionally validating...trying to understand his side..and relating to it...then working something out, makes sense.

Remember, he IS mentally ill. Significantly mentally ill.

  I think once you figure out what good this is doing...as Aus says, what are you getting out of it, then you might be able to understand the situation so much better. Right now, I see you almost thriving on this dysfunction and NEEDING to be right. Alot.

Self esteem issues are pretty common around here.

A healthy person would have walked away long ago, yet we ..you...all choose to stay.

Why? Its good to find out!

Steph