DBT and lying

[Think About It....]

Thanks to all on this thread.  Wish SO BAD I'd known others experienced this.  It's impossible to make other people understand what it's like unless they've experienced it.  Haven't you all had friends that had opinions when you tried to tell them how it is with pwBPD?

Best part of this thread is the humor.  You are cracking me up.  What a saving grace.  And our BPDd is one of the funniest people ever when she's in good spirits.  She can mimic people perfectly and always has been able to do that.  Currently she imitates each of the moms on Dance Moms.  And every priest we've ever known, she can do their exact speaking voice, singing voice, body movements and gestures.  We say "Do Father Mike" and she hunches her shoulders, puts out her hands awkwardly, and squeaks "the Lord be with you".  We say "do Father Tom" and she drones in a perfectly awful chant "All-powerful and ever-living Gaaawwwd . . ."

I can't begin to say how helpful this board is.  Yesterday, I planned and re-planned my reaction to something, and it really worked.  My old way of handling it would have created a fight that would have been totally unnecessary and unproductive.

[sharinghelps]

Thanks to all on this thread.  Wish SO BAD I'd known others experienced this.  It's impossible to make other people understand what it's like unless they've experienced it.  Haven't you all had friends that had opinions when you tried to tell them how it is with pwBPD?

Best part of this thread is the humor.  You are cracking me up.  What a saving grace.  And our BPDd is one of the funniest people ever when she's in good spirits.  She can mimic people perfectly and always has been able to do that.  Currently she imitates each of the moms on Dance Moms.  And every priest we've ever known, she can do their exact speaking voice, singing voice, body movements and gestures.  We say "Do Father Mike" and she hunches her shoulders, puts out her hands awkwardly, and squeaks "the Lord be with you".  We say "do Father Tom" and she drones in a perfectly awful chant "All-powerful and ever-living Gaaawwwd . . ."

I can't begin to say how helpful this board is.  Yesterday, I planned and re-planned my reaction to something, and it really worked.  My old way of handling it would have created a fight that would have been totally unnecessary and unproductive.

[frustratedmom]

Well dd18 arrived home for a four hour visit after 10 weeks on her own, no money, no car, no nothing.  We just told funny family stories, talked about people she knew, and ate grilled cheese sandwiches. It was pure bliss.

We had known that she had spend about 8 weeks existing at a "boyfriends" house, who dumped her as soon as her medical issues started flaring up, and she had to clean, do dishes, laundry and cook...as well as sex on demand...probably with every male in the house.  She got on food stamps, and they took them from her.  They had guns, a mean dog and grew weed in the barn.  Fun fun fun!

About  two weeks ago another guy rescued her who was sympathetic to her plight and he took her in.  Of course it helps that she's beautiful and young and willing to do anything for the next guy on the list. And it also helps he's a stoner like her. But this guy does seem different in that he wants her to connect to her family again, so we think that's great, however I'm suspicious (of course I am) that he is just as needy as she is and wants a family too...he said as much.  After joking they were already married.  Ha. Ha.

But we didn't talk about any of that. No pressure, no expectations, lots of hugs, we miss you's and we love you's and come back soon.  I made her favorite soup and she took some with her.

My H has to drive three hours today to pick her up and take her back, but he is willing to do it.  Me, not so much.  I want to imagine her in a castle, with lovely grounds surrounding her and sheep in the field.  Unfortunately there is google maps and I can pretty much tell the place she is in is a dump.

But she is safe for the time being, so that means I can sleep at night.  We gave her the phone so she can communicate with us and her computer so she can do whatever.  If she's not living here I don't really care if she drags in the trash from the streets...her decision.

This no expectation thing rocks!

[Vivgood]

We had known that she had spend about 8 weeks existing at a "boyfriends" house, who dumped her as soon as her medical issues started flaring up, and she had to clean, do dishes, laundry and cook...as well as sex on demand...probably with every male in the house.  She got on food stamps, and they took them from her.  They had guns, a mean dog and grew weed in the barn.  Fun fun fun!

About  two weeks ago another guy rescued her who was sympathetic to her plight and he took her in.  Of course it helps that she's beautiful and young and willing to do anything for the next guy on the list. And it also helps he's a stoner like her. But this guy does seem different in that he wants her to connect to her family again, so we think that's great, however I'm suspicious (of course I am) that he is just as needy as she is and wants a family too...he said as much.  After joking they were already married.  Ha. Ha.

Its hard to watch this kind of thing; I think this type of self-harm is actually way harder to watch than the cutting type. It just wears your soul down.  I'm very impressed with your visit and your ability to disengage from outcomes!

Giving her soup  sounds like nothing, but it so symbolic of maternal/parental nurturing, and having her accept that little piece of care is more important than it seems- backing off from judgement allows her to let a little of the love in!

vivgood

[heronbird]

Vivgood,

Dont know where you got that quote from but ditto.

I have been through all that and it hurts so badly the thing about the males taking advantage of her. And yes they are always reliable and happy to see her every day, not like her general friends who let her down easily or arent bothered by her.

And yes, people say she is beautiful and I know guys heads turn if Im out with her, mind you most men cant guys I see seem to be like that, no self control uh oh, dont get me started.

I dont mean all guys, I know plenty who dont.

Funny, my dd said shes so proud of her dad because she notices he never does that.

[frustratedmom]

So true - it is so hard to know that this kind of abuse is happening, and I fight the images when I try to sleep at night.  Trust me, I have gone after as many as I can, though in the end she just feels guilty and says she is worse than they are, so what does it matter? Therein lies the base of worthlessness that is the real battle.

Yesterday worked because we did not ask any questions, nor did we have any expectations or schedules.  She did not ask for anything other than some of her clothes. My H took off the day to do this for her...she was oblivious to the fact that it was a Friday and he was not at work, but she did thank him for picking her up and taking her back.

He met the guy she is living with at the moment...he is living in a rent free apt and is on disability, food stamps, and medical weed.  Has no car, no insurance.  How does she find these people? Are they magnets for the dysfunctional?

The big question is...where does she go from here? I worry that she sees this guy as having the perfect life...on public assistance, getting stoned to handle his disability, not going anywhere or doing anything worthwhile.

But she did apologize to her brother, and at least spent a few minutes telling him she missed him.
She seemed ready to accept our love yesterday, if only for a few hours. And of course what doesn't homemade soup help?

[Outsidemom]

So true - it is so hard to know that this kind of abuse is happening, and I fight the images when I try to sleep at night.  Trust me, I have gone after as many as I can, though in the end she just feels guilty and says she is worse than they are, so what does it matter? Therein lies the base of worthlessness that is the real battle.

Yesterday worked because we did not ask any questions, nor did we have any expectations or schedules.  She did not ask for anything other than some of her clothes. My H took off the day to do this for her...she was oblivious to the fact that it was a Friday and he was not at work, but she did thank him for picking her up and taking her back.

He met the guy she is living with at the moment...he is living in a rent free apt and is on disability, food stamps, and medical weed.  Has no car, no insurance.  How does she find these people? Are they magnets for the dysfunctional?

The big question is...where does she go from here? I worry that she sees this guy as having the perfect life...on public assistance, getting stoned to handle his disability, not going anywhere or doing anything worthwhile.

But she did apologize to her brother, and at least spent a few minutes telling him she missed him.
She seemed ready to accept our love yesterday, if only for a few hours. And of course what doesn't homemade soup help?

 I can't think of anything in the above quote that doesn't exactly match what I am going through with my dd.  It is almost like they both found the same bf too!

We just can't let our minds go to how they live their lives, it is too painful to think of.  But I will admit all this has changed my perception of homeless people, and people on assistance.  They all have families, some of whom may care about them tremendously  as we do, but who cannot change their way of life.

And I believe in homemade soup too - it is a symbol of motherhood.

My dd and her bf have actually found an apartment now, so I  have bought new towels as a housewarming gift.  But the buck stops there - it is her second bf she moved in with, and she lost, destroyed or hocked everything we gave her before for housekeeping.  My thoughts of what creates a home don't seem to register on my dd's scale!

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[frustratedmom]

Outsidemom -

I'm coming to realize that I cannot do some things my husband can do - go see her in dumpy restaurants and watch her eat like she hasn't eaten in days (probably not!), and I definitely do not want contact with any of these guys...I really think I would just by pass the hand shake and proceed to choking them.

When I read on another post about the boundaries being for us...not the pwBPD...a light bulb went off.  My mother used to say "she just didn't want to know" when my older brothers would come home and want to share their "escapades", and I was little so I thought DANG I don't get to hear either!  

But with an alcoholic ADD brother and other dysfunctional things going on, now I understand.  She was no shrinking violet, but she wanted to think of them as her babies, her sweet boys, and she did not want the visuals playing in her memory bank forever after. And there way nothing she could do for them...they had to figure it out on their own.

I feel that way too.  After looking volumes of emails and texts from creeps containing awful photos and sex talk,  finding strange mens' underwear show up in my laundry, informing the police about a sex club they didn't know existed, and finally finding out my daughter had hooked up with a 50 year old man at a hotel just blocks from our house, I shut the door on exposing myself to that misery.

I admire you for being able to support your daughter in each new abode, and protect yourself at the same time. I hope I can get to your coping place myself, and I hope my daughter actually gets a job and pays for an apartment someday! (I can't believe I'm saying that!)

[heronbird]

frustratedmom,

I too think about some of the stuff my dd must be up to and it breaks my heart, I shouldnt have to be thinking of what crazy things she must be up to with her bf, I must admit I do think the worse.

[qcarolr]

My DD25 is good at sending text when I need something from her that she believes will sound like something acceptable to me so I do not get angry or say no. Even though the reason often makes to sense - I let it go. Or she gives a reason for not being home when expected and says she will be here later --- and then never shows up. No point in calling her on it or getting angry. Does not change behavior. And it is so much calmer within me when she is gone. As long as I do not hear from her, I believe she is still alive and most likely with friends doing whatever.

But it is hard to avoid all those angry conversations, or rational conversation, that i have with her in my head. The list of things we need to talk about and changes I want to see and expectations I wish I could have for her.  Real life with my BPD is never like in my imagination.

DD left Friday afternoon - she had said yes to going to a school function with gd6 in the evening - and she is still not home WITH MY CAR AND THE FRIEND THAT IS DRIVING! Friday I figured she was trying to avoid losing face because she agreed to go with gd6 to make herself feel better about not being gd's mom. Saturday I friendG had permission to use car to get to his work. Yet they never came home saturday. So this am I texted that i wanted car home this afternoon since dh is gone to work and I am stranded with no car. She replied that she was waiting for G to get off work. I just replied 'thanks - ok'. I really wanted to confront her with the fact that I know of no job unless he was working in his mom's yard. But obviously he is done now since it is nighttime.

So all the B.S. is for her to avoid me telling her what to do and/or me saying no to her. So very similar to the normal behaviors of gd6 (dh and have custody of gd since she was baby).

Actually I am not angry with DD - just feeling very sad and disappointed. Both in myself and in her. Part of me wants to take her car privileges away, kick her so she is homeless again (though she is likely hanging out with homeless friends somewhere). But I also know it is better for gd in many ways to have her mom here, even though she is more like a sister for her and not 'the mom'. I am the mom.

Sorry got caught up in a ramble here. Just trying to continue to let go of expectations for DD that will go nowhere. My biggest error in judgement was putting gas in the car before the weekend. She will have to be home before I need to go to work tomorrow or there will have to be harsh consequences. If I evict her, she will be in jail on her DUI arrest - she is out on bond. Such a complicated life.

qcr

[frustratedmom]

Qcr -
When I read your responses about your 25 year old I see where we may be headed with our 18 year old and though it is tough to foretell I realize I can't do anything but watch it happen. I can love her with boundaries and not give her a car to drive unless she shows some ability to be responsible, but right now that seems like a major leap!

And then when I read about the activities of eac's (another thread) 14 year old, I wish I had something helpful to say that could give her some direction, but we tried all of the restrictions on techno communications and it failed to make a difference. She ran away any way, head first into trouble. We rescued her everytime. She was not grateful.

So I guess where I am is this...said so many times before...change the things I can, figure out if I can do or should do anything or not, and if not, step aside. Or outside. Just away from being in her business when she doesn't want it. And protect myself and the rest of my family from becoming too emotionally wrapped up in her everyday life...because I probably won't like what I see.

And perhaps in time she will be able to function well enough to lead some kind of normal life for her. And I have no idea right now what that might be...and be happy she is alive!

[eac]

frustratedmom - sigh... just caught dd sneaking the house phone in her room to talk to a boy - "but he is soooo great!"  And so it continues. I thank you for sharing - all of you for sharing.  The one thing it shows me it is to throw everything I have at it now when I still have some amount of control over her.  Hence, I will follow the recommendation for RTC.  However, I have seen this coming since she was 8 and I am hopeful but realistic about her ability to 'recover'".  As always, thank you all for being here.

[heronbird]

My son who is 19 is very upset with his  BPD sister. He is saying you just cant believe her she is a liar and theres never any point in speaking to her again, and he was so off with her when he was here yesterday, yet hes always been her support and the careing one she loves him and says he is so good to her.
She hasnt noticed that he was off with her but I tried to explain to him and I told him about this thread too and how as parents we all struggle, I tried to explain dd does so much concrete thinking and I said about what I read in my book and its not real lying etc but he said no thats rubbish, not true shes just a liar and theres no point helping her, I felt so sad.

Just because you cant see this illness, people cant be that basic can they, so he will not have any empathy for her because he cant see her illness, her other brother is similar too but blows hot and cold

[sandpiper]

http://borderlinepersonalitytreatment.com/BPD-treatment-compulsive-lying.html

I belong over at the adult children's board and rarely come to the parenting site. However the lying/mythomania is probably something we all struggle with. I thought you guys might be interested to read this article as it mentions brain changes.
I have several family members who are uBPD, my (deceased) father, at least one sister (dual diagnosis drugs + BPD, oh such a fun combination) and a second cousin.
They all lie, and it's to avoid responsibility, bolster their sense of self/importance, or just because it seems like a good idea at the time.
The research is interesting though because it backs my own gut feeling that when they get stressed it flips a switch in their brain so that they shift gears into the land of Mythomania.

I hope you guys know to protect yourself from your BPD children's behaviour.
My grandmother went through hell at the end of her life because she foolishly thought she could trust my father to manage her affairs and take care of her in her old age. He sold her house, stole her money, took her wedding rings away from her and dumped her in an aged care facility on the other side of town from her family & made her too afraid to contact any of her extended family for help. Then he told us (his 3 daughters) that she was dead. And we, being gullible, believed him.
My advice to all of you is to keep your eyes open to their behaviour. Protect yourselves, and as much as you are able to, protect their children.

[courtneyandfrank]

My 15 yr old BPD d also constantly lies. and she gets the same way when being confronted about it. yelling cussing etc. she is currently in rtc which she has been for the past year. and during therapy she has told me that when i tell her she is lying that all she hears is that she is worthless and i am disappointed in her. I myself have not figured out a proper way to call her on lying to me either, so I know exactly how you feel. She has also done the risky things with boys. at 13 she let a 19yr old male in our window which they broke to get him in and they has sex together. I have since had him convicted and placed in prison for child molestation due to her being so young. Which I am constantly blamed for taking the love of her life. So I know exactly the kind of things you are going through. It is very hard to raise a teenager especially one that has BPD...I will pray for help for you and your family.