Unsure how to handle the emotional abuse on the kids

[Think About It...]

I'm really unsure of what to do here.  I've 5 kids, all living at home, 21-9, eldest 2 have Aspergers.   My wife is uBPDw and totally believes she is not the issue.  In some ways I thing I AM guilty of neglect for failure to act.   In a way I truly feel (I REALLY HOPE I OFFEND NOBODY) like a guard at Auschwitz.  You put up seeing horrible things or die if you say a thing...

In a nutshell:

She belittles them in earshot.  Some classic lines... "I wish I never had them" , "the stupid brats", "you need to learn how to take pictures because these suck",
on and on.  I guess the point is she is extremely direct and does not care if she emotionally damages someone.

She shows little, or no, emotional caring for them.  And they know it.   The most classic example here is an argument with my then 16yo daughter.   After a ton of back and forth banter wife said she was calling the cops to kick her out.   My daughter runs away (it's April, 40 degrees and raining, she is in her socks and pajamas).   Wife says she does not give a f%^ck where she is and if she ever comes back.   Well, I go out to find her.  She's walking around the house, soaked and crying.   We talk and drive in the car for about an hour.  I try to give her advice on how to cope with "mom".  I have a wonderful sister.  It turns out the therapist who sees my daughter, looked her right in the eye, and asked her (my sister) to take my daughter in so she could heal in a non-confrontational environment.  At least one is safe...

She expects respect because of her position as a mother.  She expects them to comply with what she asks on the basis of her being their mother.  Quite frankly the 16yo tells her he "f'ing hates her", and the 12yo and 9yo frequently tell he that they don't have to do what she tells them.   I fell confused.  On one hand,  they need to show respect.  On the other, if someone says they hate you why would you care at all what they say?

Do I get caught in the middle... OH YEAH.   

Should we put up with this?   Why even bother?

[c014572]

I'm really unsure of what to do here.  I've 5 kids, all living at home, 21-9, eldest 2 have Aspergers.   My wife is uBPDw and totally believes she is not the issue.  In some ways I thing I AM guilty of neglect for failure to act.   In a way I truly feel (I REALLY HOPE I OFFEND NOBODY) like a guard at Auschwitz.  You put up seeing horrible things or die if you say a thing...

In a nutshell:

She belittles them in earshot.  Some classic lines... "I wish I never had them" , "the stupid brats", "you need to learn how to take pictures because these suck",
on and on.  I guess the point is she is extremely direct and does not care if she emotionally damages someone.

She shows little, or no, emotional caring for them.  And they know it.   The most classic example here is an argument with my then 16yo daughter.   After a ton of back and forth banter wife said she was calling the cops to kick her out.   My daughter runs away (it's April, 40 degrees and raining, she is in her socks and pajamas).   Wife says she does not give a f%^ck where she is and if she ever comes back.   Well, I go out to find her.  She's walking around the house, soaked and crying.   We talk and drive in the car for about an hour.  I try to give her advice on how to cope with "mom".  I have a wonderful sister.  It turns out the therapist who sees my daughter, looked her right in the eye, and asked her (my sister) to take my daughter in so she could heal in a non-confrontational environment.  At least one is safe...

She expects respect because of her position as a mother.  She expects them to comply with what she asks on the basis of her being their mother.  Quite frankly the 16yo tells her he "f'ing hates her", and the 12yo and 9yo frequently tell he that they don't have to do what she tells them.   I fell confused.  On one hand,  they need to show respect.  On the other, if someone says they hate you why would you care at all what they say?

Do I get caught in the middle... OH YEAH.   

Should we put up with this?   Why even bother?

[Deb]

NO! Don't put up with it! They will blame you as well, because they were not protected. Please read the board where they talk about growing up with BP parents. Maybe get the kids counseling. But don't allow her to do this to your kids. Protect them.

[JustSaying]

What's your interaction with your wife like, independent of the children?

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[c014572]

What's your interaction with your wife like, independent of the children?
>>
Roommates who don't get along. We haven't shared a bedroom, nor a bed, in over 2 years.   It's not that she isn't physically attractive, she's just so emotionally ugly that, quite frankly, I cannot stand being around her.   I was going to post a thread on this in another forum going into a bit more depth.

[Matt]

Do you think that staying in the marriage is what is best for you and the kids?

I stayed 10 years because I thought two parents was best.  My kids were 8 and 10 when we separated, and stepkids 17 and 29.  Now they are all doing better than when they were in that stressful home all the time.

As long as you are all in the same home, I think it will help to get all the kids into counseling, and make sure you spend as much time as possible alone with each of the kids, and with them all together (but away from their mom).

It might help to read (but not post) on the "Coping With Parents With BPD" board here, where adults talk about how it was for them growing up with a parent who had BPD.  One thing I've learned from reading there is how important it is for us to validate the kids' perceptions and feelings - when they tell us how it is for them, even if it's not positive, we need to accept and support that reality, not deny it.  If that is offensive to the abusive parent, that is the consequence she will experience for her behavior.

[JustSaying]

It's not that she isn't physically attractive, she's just so emotionally ugly that, quite frankly, I cannot stand being around her.

Exactly how I felt. Not wanting to touch someone whose behavior is so intolerable. And when the behaviors turned against D, that was enough for me. Not treating me right is one thing...mistreating D is another thing entirely!

[c014572]

As long as you are all in the same home, I think it will help to get all the kids into counseling, and make sure you spend as much time as possible alone with each of the kids, and with them all together (but away from their mom).

I really try to do this.  For example, just last week I took my 16yo son fishing for the day.  I don't pry, but manage to get a lot of info out of them (him) while enjoying the day. 

A very hard thing for me is refereeing issues between uBPDw and the kids.   After arguments, they will say something like "I F'ing hate you" to her.  (even the 9yo). At this point she'll say something like "are you going to let them talk to me like this?" to me.   My natural inclination I beat down is to say something like "well, do you deserve it based on your actions?"  This is very hard for me.  To her, respect is something inherent to being a parent.   I can't tell you all the times she has said "I'm your parent, not your friend."   True, in a way, but TO ME as a parent it's important to be a friend to my kids also.   A friend though, who understands boundaries and will prevent them from doing something unlawful, stupid, or immoral.   

[Matt]

I had something like this with my stepson, when we were first married.  He was 18 and had some serious problems himself, and my wife had BPD.  They fought like cats and dogs - never physical, but they said horrible things to each other, in front of my stepdaughter who was only 7 at the time.

I tried talking with each of them.  They both said they same thing:  "Talk to him - he's the one that started it!".  Like dealing with a couple of six-year-olds.

My younger kids picked up on that from their mom - using someone else's behavior to excuse their own.  I had to make it a very consistent theme - each of us is responsible for what we do, and what somebody else did is no excuse.

So if your rule, for example, is, "No f-bombs indoors.", or "Kids speak respectfully to adults in this house." - you maintain that rule with the kids, and don't let their mom's behavior be an excuse.

But you don't have to invalidate their perceptions or feelings toward their mom's behavior - in fact it's important to validate them:  "I said **** but that was because Mom did such-and-such."  "I understand that it hurts when she says stuff like that.  My rule is 'No f-bombs indoors.' and I expect you to follow that rule.  Do you understand?"

[c014572]

But you don't have to invalidate their perceptions or feelings toward their mom's behavior - in fact it's important to validate them:  "I said **** but that was because Mom did such-and-such."  "I understand that it hurts when she says stuff like that.  My rule is 'No f-bombs indoors.' and I expect you to follow that rule.  Do you understand?"

Dude, your responses are GREAT!   I am so happy I found this board.   I felt so alone until I did.  I never thought of specific rules like this; in the past I just explained to them how to "absorb" the verbal abuse knowing the source.  This should help them verbalize without getting into a "war", or so I hope...

[Matt]

We've been separated more than five years - mine were S8 and D10 when we separated - and that entire time, I've had to continue to reinforce this with the kids - that behavior of responding in kind was learned so well (and of course they are still kids).

Now they're pretty good about it - I think they are able to think in terms of being responsible for their own words and actions, and not using someone else's behavior as an excuse for their own, because they know I won't accept that.  (But of course it's easier when I'm with them in our home, away from their mom - much harder when you're all in the same home together and the other parent is acting like that...)

[c014572]

Matt, if you prefer to reply just to me , cool.   One of the hardest point for me has been thinking that if I separate that they will somehow be denied exposure to their mother and this would ultimately "f***" them up.   But when I look back at the pattern of emotional abuse I get torn.   I HATE to say it, but when she is gone shpping (etc.) for the day their is a sense of peace and tranquility in the house.   

[Matt]

That's a huge question - whether it's best for the kids to be in one home with both parents and a lot of stress, or to have two homes - and you can't say right now how much time they might spend in each - and one of those homes can be peaceful.  A huge question that's very hard to answer...

It's not likely that they would be denied exposure to their mother.  In my state, the mother almost always gets at least half the time with the kids, often more.  In other states it can work differently, and it depends a lot on the legal process and the information put before the court.

It's also hard to say how much time with each parent would be best.  It's very clear, from lots of research, that kids raised only by one parent who has BPD (and isn't getting treatment) are at much higher risk - substance abuse, mental illness, etc. - than kids raised by a healthy parent or (best) two healthy parents.  But I don't know if spending a little time regularly with the parent with BPD is a big problem;  in fact, mine (S8 and D10 when we separated five years ago) see their mom regularly and are doing great.

Ultimately only you can decide what is best, and pursue that - best to stay in the marriage, and learn tools to make it work the best you can (like on the Staying board here), and also what we talk about here on "Raising a child" - ways to help the kids.  Or better to separate so you can provide a calmer home for the kids, however much they will be with you.

One thing I found for sure, was that I became a better parent when we separated.  First, because I'm not under assault all the time, so I can focus on the kids.  And also because I now know that I need to provide for (almost) all the kids' needs.  I can no longer think that it's their mom's job - everything is my job, unless she steps up and I see her doing it so I don't have to.

So it's more work, and more responsibility, but much easier and less stress.

[JustSaying]

One of the hardest point for me has been thinking that if I separate that they will somehow be denied exposure to their mother and this would ultimately "f***" them up.

List of things that can f kids up: no parent, disordered parent, bath salts, too little exercise, too much sugar, TV, religion, no religion, sex education, no sex ed...

The list doesn't end. So we gotta do what we gotta do and make the best decisions we can after gathering all the information we can find.

The problem I have with "being denied exposure to their mother would screw them up," is, what if she died? What if she took 8 tours of duty to Afghanistan? What if? Are those kids destined to be screwed up? Of course not, but we might have to parent differently.

It's more about a parent's behaviors than their mere presence. When I lived with D and X, D had no normal time. X's presence tainted every moment. Once we separated, and I was fortunate to get majority time, D's time is almost always normal. And the normal experience in our house now helps her--'taints'--her time spent in some disordered places.

But that's a very personal decision and you have to know your child and your spouse and how each are likely to respond to the different possibilities.

[momtario]

A very hard thing for me is refereeing issues between uBPDw and the kids.   After arguments, they will say something like "I F'ing hate you" to her.  (even the 9yo). At this point she'll say something like "are you going to let them talk to me like this?" to me.   My natural inclination I beat down is to say something like "well, do you deserve it based on your actions?"  This is very hard for me.  To her, respect is something inherent to being a parent.   I can't tell you all the times she has said "I'm your parent, not your friend."   True, in a way, but TO ME as a parent it's important to be a friend to my kids also.   A friend though, who understands boundaries and will prevent them from doing something unlawful, stupid, or immoral.   

I am in a very similar pace in my own r/s with my uNPDh and my kids etc... I always focus on wrong behaviours, and I address the incorrect BEHVAIOURS of all parties, regardless of who I feel was 'right'.

Something like "I can understand why you feel that way. What your mother did was wrong, and must have been very frustrating/upsetting/frightening for you. You are the one that determines your own behaviours, and I expect you to behave regardless of the circumstances. You know the rules. Anger is a feeling, which is fine, feelings are good- yelling/ swearing/ throwing things is an action, and one that you are not allowed."

I always make sure my kids know their feelings are valid and acceptable, and which behaviours are not acceptable.

[c014572]

Thanks.  My only problem doing this is that she is so "tunnel visioned" thinking her position is right that she tells me I'm "wrong" and :siding with them" if I question what she says or does.   Do all BPD's see things with blinders on?

[momtario]

In short, I think the answer to that question is yes. That's a classic example of black and white thinking- with me or against me. Perhaps it would be a better idea to have this discussion with your kids after removing them from the situation, and therefore, your wife's earshot.

I would suggest that before it gets to the point where the children are swearing back and your W asks you to pick sides, which it sounds like she is doing, you implement the time out, and take the kids to another room/ outside/ to the store, stating you will return when everyone is calmer in 20 minutes/ an hour/ 3 hours - however long it usually takes for her to calm down. The older ones are able to understand what you are doing and why, so maybe prepare them for it by explaining it before hand- your 9 yo will catch on after the first few times, and probably start putting on their own shoes as soon as Mom starts to get dysregulated.

I struggle with doing this myself- it's hard to break old habits, and even harder to break coping methods that seem to come naturally after so long (for me, freezing) but it's important- probably the most important thing you and your children can learn to do to protect yourselves from this abuse while you are living with her.

Have you read all of the lessons on the staying board? If not, please do- they will help.  

[c014572]

I struggle with doing this myself- it's hard to break old habits, and even harder to break coping methods that seem to come naturally after so long (for me, freezing) but it's important- probably the most important thing you and your children can learn to do to protect yourselves from this abuse while you are living with her.

I really appreciate the reply.   Most of what I see here makes me "freeze" in my tracks because it hits so close to home.   My kids are not stupid, that's part of the "problem",  They see her as a manipulative, non-loving parent and react accordingly.   
BPD, NPD, ?PD, I (and the kids) see her as someone who is just impossible to deal with irrespective of the label.  Unfortunately so do I.

[Matt]

So...what is the advantage of staying together?

Why not just end the marriage?  If you file for divorce, you can ask that a Custody Evaluator be appointed by the court, and psych evals for both parents.  You can seek full custody of all the kids (but no guarantee that you'll get it).  Even if you don't get full custody, you can provide a calm, stable home for the kids, when they are with you.  If your wife continues to treat them badly, over time they'll quit being around her.

Not a quick or easy fix, but that's what many of us have decided we need to do...