Difference between Being Co-Dependent and Being a Close Friend

[Think About It...]

 Hi!

In considering whether I was going to abandoned a close friendship I had to consider first and foremost the "why" of staying. I needed to take my own honest inventory and determine--with help--whether or not I was acting out as a co-dependent or in fact had honest feelings of friendship for my fBPG.

Co-dependency, as I understand it, would be active if I put this relationship ahead of my own life. This person is important to me but I have a very full life between work, other friends, and sobriety commitments (sober 20+ years.) I value my friendship with this person and my friendship with her adds a positive dimension to my life (most of the time--and sometimes a lot of work .)

The role I play for this friend is being an emotionally stable-safe-harbor, non-threatening, non-abandoning, and most important a CALM person she can turn to when she is in need. I don't personalize her rages and have learned to stay back far enough so that she doesn't feel smothered. I also try and have no expectations beyond each moment.

I am still not clear on the definition of care-giver...I am certain I am not a care-taker or enabler but I do try validate her whatever her mood in a calm way. Any help with this definition and/or experience with the differences between care-taking and care-giving would be greatly appreciated.

[lastwave]

 Hi!

In considering whether I was going to abandoned a close friendship I had to consider first and foremost the "why" of staying. I needed to take my own honest inventory and determine--with help--whether or not I was acting out as a co-dependent or in fact had honest feelings of friendship for my fBPG.

Co-dependency, as I understand it, would be active if I put this relationship ahead of my own life. This person is important to me but I have a very full life between work, other friends, and sobriety commitments (sober 20+ years.) I value my friendship with this person and my friendship with her adds a positive dimension to my life (most of the time--and sometimes a lot of work .)

The role I play for this friend is being an emotionally stable-safe-harbor, non-threatening, non-abandoning, and most important a CALM person she can turn to when she is in need. I don't personalize her rages and have learned to stay back far enough so that she doesn't feel smothered. I also try and have no expectations beyond each moment.

I am still not clear on the definition of care-giver...I am certain I am not a care-taker or enabler but I do try validate her whatever her mood in a calm way. Any help with this definition and/or experience with the differences between care-taking and care-giving would be greatly appreciated.

[lastwave]

Juts found this link

http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.0

which helps me better understand my role;

"Accept the Role of "Emotional Caretaker": According to Kraft Goin MD (University of Southern California), "borderlines need a person who is a constant, continuing, empathic force in their lives; someone who can listen and handle being the target of intense rage and idealization while concurrently defining limits and boundaries with firmness and candor".  To be in this type of relationship, you must accept the role as emotional caretaker - consistently staying above it. 

~ Maintaining routine and structure
~ Setting and maintain boundaries
~ Being empathetic, building trust, even in difficult times
~ Don_

[Heronblue]

HI LastWave - I have been wrestling with this same subject.  I broke free from my BPDbf and finally let go of any hope of a romantic relationship.  But I truly missed his friendship so we have rekindled that and I have set boundaries.  As a friend, he is 100% there for me and rarely lashes out.  When he does, I draw the line. 

I still quietly plug away at trying to get him to go to therapy which he sometimes seems open to but I doubt ever will.  There is so much that I admire and love about him, despite the fact that he is very inflicted by this illness.  He doesn't direct this at me now, but he frequently has spontaneous aggression in public situations if someone invades his space but I have never seen him act out on anything.

The issue is that he has a hard time drawing the line...he tried to reintegrate into my family (I have two children that he loves).  Someday, I will meet someone else and it will be an issue.  Still wrestling with this.

Many people will say to walk away...but I cannot do that.  He is my friend and I love him.  I wouldn't leave a friend who has a physical disability. Maybe I am being delusional...what do you think?  Thanks for the information below.

[lastwave]

 Hi! Heron

I agree I couldn't walk away--I have an emotional investment-- and my situation is similar in that within the boundaries of the friendship I am no longer the target of the anger/fears. We know each other very very well and when everything is on an even-keel it is fun to be with her. When things aren't so good I have become an emotional safe harbor--which is okay with me and a safe non-threatening person she can turn to.

Meanwhile my life is on track and I'm busy with projects I love to do...For me walking away was not the answer--working on myself--acceptance--and unconditional love--were/are the right things to do...

[eeyore]

Meanwhile my life is on track and I'm busy with projects I love to do...For me walking away was not the answer--working on myself--acceptance--and unconditional love--were/are the right things to do...

 

[Heronblue]

Hi LastWave - just curious whether your friend was ever a romantic interest?  My friend was...and then pretended he was for another year or more while he had things going on elsewhere and completely withdrew from me.  I had helped him out a lot during a difficult time...therefore hated me.  When I finally let go and cut him out of my life, of course, he was back and suddenly the hate was gone.  I know if I ever reverted to a relationship again, it would be back in an instant.

As friends, there is very little of that...for whatever reason, he has more control.  The issue is that he became/is part of our family.  He loves being with my kids and is good with them.  He does things with them 2-3x a week. I've let him back in the fold to some degree because I am going through a very difficult divorce and as my friend he is there for me, but long term we cannot continue like this.  I feel like I can draw the line now (where I couldn't in the past) between friendship and family/romance.  I don't think he can and in a way I feel like letting him back in isn't fair for me to do.  All very confusing.

[sm15000]

I have been wrestling with this same subject.  I broke free from my BPDbf and finally let go of any hope of a romantic relationship.  But I truly missed his friendship so we have rekindled that and I have set boundaries.  As a friend, he is 100% there for me and rarely lashes out.  When he does, I draw the line. 

The issue is that he has a hard time drawing the line...he tried to reintegrate into my family (I have two children that he loves).  Someday, I will meet someone else and it will be an issue.  Still wrestling with this.

Many people will say to walk away...but I cannot do that.  He is my friend and I love him. 

Hi Heronblue,

I have mainly been on the leaving board.  Ended my 13 yr r/s about a year ago. . .we have had periods of NC and LC.  I too have let go of any chance of a romantic relationship.  He continues to stay in touch although of course I'm not quite sure of the intent behind this.  I would like to find a place for him in my life but he always seems to say something that stirs up anger in me because he has never taken much responsibility for what he did.  He continues to lie about the cheating towards the end. 

I'm just wondering how you came to deal with all the things they have done and kept them from not 'rising' within you?  And yes with the fact that of if they will most probably act out or try to stop you moving on.  How would you feel if he found someone and it was serious?

[lastwave]

Hi LastWave - just curious whether your friend was ever a romantic interest?  My friend was... When I finally let go and cut him out of my life, of course, he was back and suddenly the hate was gone.  I know if I ever reverted to a relationship again, it would be back in an instant.

Hi! Heron

There was time, at the beginning of our friendship, when  I believed I had romantic feelings for my friend. She made it clear that she did not have those same feelings--even though she was sending me what I thought were mixed signals (interlocked fingers when holding hands, touching shoulders, straitening tie, using  pronouns; us, we, brushing my  hair, etc.). She claimed many reasons why she didn't feel the same way, but in the end I think it wasn't meant to be a romantic relationship. During this period her sudden shifts occurred--and those shifts set me to working on myself.

I have accepted the idea there is not and will not be a romantic relationship and do not hold out hope for a future romantic turn in our friendship[/b]. There is a part of me that still wonders about a romantic relationship BUT I think this is a dangerous place for me. I accept her as she is, but any closer involvement than we have right now will bring back the push/pull, love/hate, painting black, swings that are part of her personality.

[victim15]

Someday, I will meet someone else and it will be an issue.  Still wrestling with this.Unfortunately when you meet someone else it does become an issue. I stayed friends too, I was his unpaid therapist, there for him anytime he needed me.

He had gone back to his ex but he still came to see me as a friend, I tried my best to keep him calm, and he said I often talked him out of doing things that would have had bad consequences.

Then I met someone, he wasn't happy but put on a brave face initially, he kept making inappropriate remarks about the new guy (he had never met him) when I continued to see new guy my BPD friend went completely cold on me and stopped contact.

I think even though they can never be there for us 100% they expect that we be there for them 100% anything less just isn't good enough..

[lastwave]

   Thanks eeyore !

[lastwave]

Someday, I will meet someone else and it will be an issue.

Yes I have seen some flashes of resentment when I go to dinner or some other activity with another woman. My friend fBPD encourages me to date but still says things "we" should invite them over for dinner (we don't live together!)--and statements that she doesn't want to "share" me. The core idea here is that the BPD fears abandonment from anyone they have attached too--so even if THEY aren't romantically involved and the friendship changes in a  material way they will still experience feelings of abandonment.

Right now the idea of dating someone is not an issue. I will have to see what the future holds for me in this regard.

[victim15]

He did that too, encouraged me to date, but obviously didn't mean it.

I am very wary of dating,after all the emotional upheavel think I need to get myself in a better place. However actually going out (ex hated going out) and mixing with "normal" people has done me good.

I wouldn't recommend dating if you are hoping for more with your BPD partner as the abandonment fear definately kick's in and they can cut themselves off totally from you. Mine is back with his ex because he couldn't stand the thought of her moving on. I had to make a stand to stop the recycling thats why I told him I was dating.

[lastwave]

He did that too, encouraged me to date, but obviously didn't mean it.

Yes I had the same feeling that this wasn't genuine. And when one of her acquaintances showed some interest in me I got pushed very hard.

I am very wary of dating,after all the emotional upheavel think I need to get myself in a better place. However actually going out (ex hated going out) and mixing with "normal" people has done me good.

Im not ready really since I am not sure I wont be attracted to another BPD...still more work for me to do on myself first.

I wouldn't recommend dating if you are hoping for more with your BPD partner as the abandonment fear definitely kick's in and they can cut themselves off totally from you.

My hope is that we can  stay friends and that a higher level of trust is built so that we both can be happy without the fear of abandonment creating more push/pull recycling and controlling behaviors.

[lastwave]

 ?
A question I have concerns minor deceptions. My friend BPD has started to say she is going to do something and then does something else. It usually involves breaking a plan with me so "she can work" and then hanging out with other friends. Since we are friends why does she feel that she needs to have me believe one thing while she is doing something else?

Is this my co-dependency at work?

[Grey Kitty]

Is this my co-dependency at work?

In my eyes, your co-dependency would be thinking that this behavior is something you are causing.

Thinking it is something your friend does for reasons that likely have little to do with you...even if they are intended to have an effect on you sounds like a healthier way to look at it.

[victim15]

I think that they do whatever they want to do, when they want to do it.

We would have plans to have coffee at 10.30 am for example and he would turn up at 12 and only stay briefly, he wont have done anything of any importance to make him late.

Another time he was due at 6 for a drink, at 5.30pm he text me and said he was going on a 20 mile bike ride, when I said "so your not coming round then?" he said I never said I definitely was

Other days he would turn up unannounced, two or three times and not want to leave.

I dont think it's co-dependency I think it's the difference with how we make plans and how they do. If you are like me I stick to plans and am a good time keeper, he was the complete opposite anything trivial would come first at times.

[lastwave]

Is this my co-dependency at work?

In my eyes, your co-dependency would be thinking that this behavior is something you are causing.

Thinking it is something your friend does for reasons that likely have little to do with you...even if they are intended to have an effect on you sounds like a healthier way to look at it.

Yes thanks I do not think anything I am doing is causing this--and it really doesn't affect me...it is her business. Thanks so much !

[lastwave]

I think that they do whatever they want to do, when they want to do it.
I dont think it's co-dependency I think it's the difference with how we make plans and how they do. If you are like me I stick to plans and am a good time keeper, he was the complete opposite anything trivial would come first at times.

 Thanks and I agree that "my" BPD can be like a six-year old heading towards the next shiny new thing or better offer for dinner...Thank you so much...

[lastwave]

 Hi!
Today was moving day--that is I helped move my friend's belongings from a house she had been sharing. She is storing her belongings at my house until she finds a new house to rent. She is staying at her mother's until then. I gave her a key so she could come and go as she needed. Simple enough the day went well and we are finishing this move on Thursday & Friday.
Many, if not most, of my 'normy' friends have and are criticizing me and telling me that I am setting myself up. I don't what they think I am setting myself up for (I have set a date to move her stuff from here boundary) and would welcome any advice and/or experience anyone would like to share...
thanks in advance

[Heronblue]

Hi LastWave - I don't know about that last one, my friend is not clingy like that.  I have found this thread very useful because I am in this situation.  I have gotten through (I think) my own dependency and now longer expect this to fall back into a romantic relationship although he is always kind of hinting it could be.  As a friend, he is very helpful to me and kind.  We are a safe place for him. I have been going through a difficult divorce, and his friendship is especially important to me right now.  I enjoy his company.  I feel like I know all that he is and can accept that, and understand that his behavior will never change since he is too NPD to ever accept professional help.
 
I also know him enough to know he very likely has one or two relationships or sexual things on the side although pretending even to himself that it's not true.  I've reached a point where I just see it as the sickness and don't take it personally.  Since he and I won't ever be together again in that way, it doesn't really matter to me.  However, the issue is that he attaches in such a way that he is part of our family and someday that will change.  He can't really draw the line at a straight friendship.  So perhaps I am deluding myself and really just setting him up for pain down the roacd.

[victim15]

From my experience it is hard just to have a friendship, i have tried this and initially it worked, then it was a hug, then a kiss and so on and so forth until the cycle began again. obviously this was as much my fault as I let it happen.

If she tries to do this with you what will you do? I think you need to make sure that you have a plan and stick to it, we all know how easily they can get what they want from us only to throw it back in our faces at a later date...

Boundaries..Boundaries.. Boundaries... I am hoping I can practice what I preach..Ha ha..

[lastwave]

 Hi! Heron
"I have gotten through (I think) my own dependency and now longer expect this to fall back into a romantic relationship although he is always kind of hinting it could be."

My major issue in the "romantic" area is that I still sometimes have hopes that we could be in a romantic relationship. However, and in spite of the mixed signals (plural pronouns, we need to invite them over..etc), ... she has made it clear that I am not ever going to be the one for her. And having said that starts the pull part of the cycle all over again and I return to BFF status (best friend forever   ). I have to KNOW (and not hope) that the mixed signals are simply part of what she does and NOT an indication of intent.

Hi!Victim 15
"If she tries to do this with you what will you do?"
Good question and I don't know the answer to it. The rational me would say NO and back up--the other me would be very confused.

[victim15]

We tell ourselves in our heads we just want to be friends but do we really want and hope for more.

It was my birthday yesterday and I didn't even get a "Happy Birthday" from him, some friend. I was so angry and hurt. I text him about something different, he rang me and knew it was my B'day but still never said it, the conversation was all about him, as usual.

I think the moral is they will always let us down, even over the small things in life.

[lastwave]

 Hi!

We tell ourselves in our heads we just want to be friends but do we really want and hope for more.

This is true for me and remains a problem-the little fantasies--daydreams about being closer than friends. However, I am working towards accepting her just as she is and that a deeper relationship is impossible. I realize that FRIENDSHIP is all that it is ever going to be and that friendship with her will last longer than any of the romantic interest that will come her way.

Happy Belated Birthday!

[sm15000]

This is true for me and remains a problem-the little fantasies--daydreams about being closer than friends. However, I am working towards accepting her just as she is and that a deeper relationship is impossible. I realize that FRIENDSHIP is all that it is ever going to be and that friendship with her will last longer than any of the romantic interest that will come her way.

I am contemplating attempting this kind of interaction with my ex of 13 yrs.  Can i ask did you have a period of NC/being apart?  If so, what was it that made you attempt friendship?

[lastwave]

I am contemplating attempting this kind of interaction with my ex of 13 yrs.  Can i ask did you have a period of NC/being apart?  If so, what was it that made you attempt friendship?

 Hi!
I never seriously attempted NC and longest interval we have been "silent" is about two days even after a serious meltdown--painting me black episode. Typically it is my friend that contacts me--though this last time I contacted her.

I know some of the reasons about "WHY" I am staying.
1. First and foremost she knows me very well and on some level we have attained a level of emotional intimacy (brief periods!).
2. I am okay with being an "emotional caretaker"
3. Companionship
4. It is more comfortable for me...than starting something new
5. I am afraid emotionally  to end my connection with her...(perhaps my abandonment issues)
6. and sadly; I might be more comfortable with women who aren't emotionally available--(my friend is part of a longer pattern)
7. ref # 6 and this is what I am presently working on in myself.

[lastwave]

Since he and I won't ever be together again in that way, it doesn't really matter to me.  However, the issue is that he attaches in such a way that he is part of our family and someday that will change.  He can't really draw the line at a straight friendship.  So perhaps I am deluding myself and really just setting him up for pain down the roacd.

My friend also "attaches" and does so without knowing that she is doing it. It happens when we are together that she begins talking in plural pronouns..."us and we...", her body language is affectionate, sitting close, touching, very familiar. AND she acts clingy sometimes and aloof at other times...In one of her "relationships" she kept in daily contact with me and even made sure all three of use went to a holiday party together--literally in the same car .

This business about letting her store her stuff at my house has turned into me helping her move...(I don't know where the rest of her friends are or if she even asked them to help). In fact this morning I made arrangements to get a truck and get and early start and she just texted that she wants to meet me at 1:00Pm now instead of 10:00--so the changing plans--needs to be out by tomorrow !

[sm15000]

Hi!
I never seriously attempted NC and longest interval we have been "silent" is about two days even after a serious meltdown--painting me black episode. Typically it is my friend that contacts me--though this last time I contacted her.

I know some of the reasons about "WHY" I am staying.
1. First and foremost she knows me very well and on some level we have attained a level of emotional intimacy (brief periods!).
2. I am okay with being an "emotional caretaker"
3. Companionship
4. It is more comfortable for me...than starting something new
5. I am afraid emotionally  to end my connection with her...(perhaps my abandonment issues)
6. and sadly; I might be more comfortable with women who aren't emotionally available--(my friend is part of a longer pattern)
7. ref # 6 and this is what I am presently working on in myself.

Hi, this is very honest of you. . .and i recognise some of what you are saying.  I ended my 13yr r/s a year ago and we have had periods of NC/LC. . .i haven't seen him now for over 6 months.  It was good for me though, although it was hideous sometimes I needed to stay away.  Same here, he contacts me. . .if he never had i truly believe i would have never contacted him. 

There is a lot of emotional 'juggling' involved though in trying to maintain this, isn't there. . .i think you have to be prepared for that. 

[lastwave]

Hi, this is very honest of you. . .and i recognise some of what you are saying.  I ended my 13yr r/s a year ago and we have had periods of NC/LC. . .i haven't seen him now for over 6 months.  It was good for me though, although it was hideous sometimes I needed to stay away.  Same here, he contacts me. . .if he never had i truly believe i would have never contacted him. 

There is a lot of emotional 'juggling' involved though in trying to maintain this, isn't there. . .i think you have to be prepared for that. 

 Hi! Yes there is and will always be a lot of emotional juggling. I am learning that her constant juggling of plans is not about me but rather about the way a BPD/NPD thinks and acts--so I dont take things personally (too much  ).

As far as complete NC it is nearly impossible because we both belong to the same organization that has regular weekly meetings. So rather than be uncomfortale several times a week it is just easier (at least for now) to continue be part of each other's lives.

[victim15]

Thank you for the birthday wish Lastwave.. x

[lastwave]

We finally got most of her things moved over here with the help of her mother. One more long day tomorrow and we will be finished. We are having fun and working very hard. He mother complimented me a lot about my house and yard and I had the uncomfortable feelingred-flag  she was assessing my house a potential place for her daughter to live--as a roommate. We had an early dinner and her mother was very friendly and asked lots of questions about my daughtersred-flag  (live away from here) and expressed interest in meeting them this summerred-flag . The time frame for moving her stuff out of my place is now two months instead of one monthred-flag  she announced over dinner.

I am confused at the moment because I don't know whether or not I am projecting something I want (her staying her) or that I am seeing warning signs--that all of my friends have been saying to me--that this arrangement of storing her things is not going to simply end...and there is a risk that she wont find a suitable place in her price range in the near future and spend more and more time her ..until she is resident in my house... ?

Time to set boundaries--but I don't know what I want...(sigh)

[Randi Kreger]

I don't think you should worry about labels.

Instead, think about how you feel supporting your friend and how it fits your life. Does it make you crazy and you don't know how to set limits? Are you sick of hearing the same thing again and again? Do you feel taken advantage of? Is it taking time from other things you want to do?

Or can you set limits and go on to other things? Do you feel good that you've helped someone at no expense to yourself? Do you leave her problems with your friend instead of carrying them around?

I think the question comes down to, do you have good boundaries. If so, I don't see you have a problem.

[lastwave]

I don't think you should worry about labels.

• Instead, think about how you feel supporting your friend and how it fits your life.

    It makes me feel good about myself to help someone--I don't write an invoice or have expectations of a reward--

• Is it taking time from other things you want to do?

    I plan reasonably well so that I still can accomplish all of the things I need to do for myself

• ... can you set limits and go on to other things?

    yes once the move was over I was done with it...

• Do you feel good that you've helped someone at no expense to yourself?

     Yes when I offered to help it was genuine and I felt good--time well spent--

• Do you leave her problems with your friend instead of carrying them around?

     I don't dwell on her problems or offer solutions. I think about them when she asks or brings up an issue.

   Thanks for adding some clarity to this situation for me particularly not getting into labeling and examining how I FEEL about this...
Thanks...

[Randi Kreger]

You're welcome. It feels good to help (ha ha ha).

[lastwave]

You're welcome. It feels good to help (ha ha ha).

 

[Pou]

I have a uNPD wife and I was ignorant that such thing existed.  I am trying to work things out with her because we have two kids and a bunch history together (however I am not certain if she is capable of having a normal human emotional attachment).  If you are only at the stage of friendship and is learning and understanding the severity of people with this kind PD ... I would advice you try not to get any deeper if you could.  If you want to pursue a happy life ... please look for other options.  Can you live with someone who one day wake up and decide to malign you and make up ferocious lies about you?  Can you deal with someone who intentionally drive your relatives and close friends away for no known reasons?  My wife will make up all these things .. such as her family (I suspect her mom has BPD) refused to bury her father's ashes for 5 years and then just last year during my dad's passing, my wife started to shut down things I should be doing for my father's passing by accusing my 80 year old mother blocking her family from burying her father's ashes.  My mom lives 3 hours away and I wear that has zero interest about running house hold and the stretch that she would care to interfere any human being's burial is out of this world.  NPD and BPD loves drama and they are destructive, my wife knowingly and consciously created this drama to create reasons just to HATE.  My mother send her birthday present, she returns it.  My sister sends us x-mas present, she refused to accept it because she says there is no space for it.  And then she told them that she did it because I reject her relatives' presents (I welcome all presents, I am not insane).   So this is what you are going to deal with.  I never had a chance to grieve for my dad's passing, because she relentlessly shifted the attention of my grieving to dealing with her created problems.  REcently, she walked into the police station and falsely accused me of things that I did not do and got me arrested.  Because she gave me visible wound, she was in return was arrested.  We have so spent $$$ just try to dismiss this case and guess what ?  I feel like my years of reputation has now being ruined and now, I have a record out there that completely malign my character that I so hard to upheld all my life.  Don't dream being a prince to rescue someone who has NPD or BPD ... you can not.  Even a psychiatrist runs the other way... You got to read books and read around this forum for real life stories... I did not believe many told me because in my head at the beginning is that "oh, yeah, that only happens to other people... not me."  Boy... was I wrong?  I am just sharing my own experiences with you and you can make decisions base on your own situation.  Good luck.

[lastwave]

POU:

I am just sharing my own experiences with you and you can make decisions base on your own situation.  Good luck.

Thank you for sharing your experience and concerns. It is through reading books and the comments on these boards that I am learning to set boundaries and eliminate my expectations.

I am sorry for the difficulties you have experienced and will keep your experiences and suggestions in mind as I move forward.

Thanks

[Pou]

I am still with my uNPD wife.  I am trying hard to make it work with our two kids.  At some point, it will not be my choice to make ... but while it is still mine, I feel I have to give it all I got ... it is extremely draining .. mentally and physically ... I feel like being in a prison all the time.  I walk gingerly ... and constantly fear what would piss her off and bring out her rage.  In any event, this board helps, because I get to talk about it.. by talking about it, it helps me deal better.  In many ways, I also get to learn about who I am as I am going through this trying experience. 

I feel that if the nons and BPD/NPD splits ... my perception is that the BPD/NPD probably will have hard time splitting and in my case, I told my wife that I can not stand it anymore how she lies to my family and me to block my mom and sisters from seeing my kids and visit us, and one day that I will leave... that flips her out and then she actually went to the police to file a report.. and got us in trouble (I posted this experience on other thread.. so I won't rehash, which I am guilty of doing often).  It seems to me that BPD/NPD has very unhealthy view of what a relationship is... to them, it is a power thing ... they have to be in control in dictating how your life has to be.  My BPD/NPD wife, expects me to do my work, take care of my kids and pick up around the house and the yard work, the construction work and for her, she only has to worry about her job... if I do not full fill her demand, she rages and refuse to listen to any explanation and she is never sorry ... so I would think if I do cross the bridge of separating ... I would prefer not having anything to do with her, knowing the perverted controlling behavior that BPD/NPD displays and the relentless drama that they like to create ... I prefer to stay away if I could.  I feel I have waste so much of my life dealing with her drama.  So I can not imagine if someone decides to leave would still want to have any thing to do with the ex-significant BPD/NPD.

[lastwave]

SM15000 Hi!

There is a lot of emotional 'juggling' involved though in trying to maintain this, isn't there. . .i think you have to be prepared for that. 

Not just the juggling but trying to to make sense out of "feelings" altogether. I have a pretty good grasp of the my co-dependency behaviors; controlling, enabling, etc. and I do pretty well monitoring myself--did not ask her to stay here, etc...don't try and make decisions for her, or try to change her in anyway... but I have some strong feelings that sit on the border between friendship and romance...and I don't know how to sort these out...are these feelings the product of attachments or are they real honest feelings ?

any ideas ?

[sm15000]

It seems to me that BPD/NPD has very unhealthy view of what a relationship is...hey have to be in control in dictating how your life has to be ... so I would think if I do cross the bridge of separating ... I would prefer not having anything to do with her, knowing the perverted controlling behavior that BPD/NPD displays and the relentless drama that they like to create ... I prefer to stay away if I could.  I feel I have waste so much of my life dealing with her drama.  So I can not imagine if someone decides to leave would still want to have any thing to do with the ex-significant BPD/NPD.

Hi Pou,
I would describe my ex of 13 yrs as uBPD/NPD.  Up until a year or so before it ended, we had a fantastic time but in hindsight that's really all it was (from him).  We never lived together so i didn't see the full extent of what he was capable of but you are right they do have an unhealthy idea of what a relationship is. . .and it is based on power.  The funny thing is my ex wasn't an 'obvious' controller or rager. . .it was very covert control - basically he made me think (and for a long time) I was the only one for him sort-of-thing. . .so it kept him 'safe'.  It has been over a year now (ended by me), we have had periods of NC/LC. . .contact is always initiated by him.  I would never go back romantically. . .he's just too manipulative. . .and i'm not sure he can ever be a 'friend'. . .time will tell.  
I feel for you. . .it's not nice feeling you are wasting your life. . .good luck  

Not just the juggling but trying to to make sense out of "feelings" altogether. I have a pretty good grasp of the my co-dependency behaviors; controlling, enabling, etc. and I do pretty well monitoring myself--did not ask her to stay here, etc...don't try and make decisions for her, or try to change her in anyway... but I have some strong feelings that sit on the border between friendship and romance...and I don't know how to sort these out...are these feelings the product of attachments or are they real honest feelings ?
any ideas ?

Hi Lastwave,
That's a hard question to answer, isn't it. . .maybe they are a product of both that with time will become clearer.  Whatever, I think it's important not to let our other half's monopolize our thinking and lives too much. . .don't hang 'everything' on them or expect your happiness to come just from them.  Personally, for me very recently my mindset has changed somewhat. . .I know I have been cheated on, lied to and manipulated. . .I have forgiven him but that doesn't mean i owe him anything.  I have not shut the door on him completely but each time I see his manipulating ways, it closes a little more.  
Good Luck  

[lastwave]

 Hi! SM 15000

Personally, for me very recently my mindset has changed somewhat. . .I know I have been cheated on, lied to and manipulated. . .I have forgiven him but that doesn't mean i owe him anything.  I have not shut the door on him completely but each time I see his manipulating ways, it closes a little more.

"We are in another push phase. This time however, I have not been painted black, but I have been lied to on several occasions for no good reason. My BPD/NPD moved (her belongings are at my house) which is on on the list of major life changing events..during the process of moving we became closer but now the depression or dysregulation is beginning to set in and her need for attention is growing at a rapid pace. The other night we were sitting together and she asked me to move one chair away because her GF was coming to this event. Her GF was not coming to the event but a new guy she is starting to get interested in came in and she didn't want him to think we were sitting together. Several of those stories later,  and partial silence on her part,  my co-dependency banners are flying--I am trying to figure out what I did wrong---and I did nothing wrong. She is simply seeking a fresh source of attention (narcissistic supply) and her attention is on two men. Her history with R/S is not good, usually end quickly, with lots of anger directed towards her by her "men". BUT SHE WILL get immediate and fresh attention so partially abandoning me to make room for the new sources is what she is doing. What I am doing is working very had to understand that I didn't do anything and not to take on 'guilt' based on her lying and manipulative behaviors---which will recycle (like I will if I allow it) in 90-120 days...
staying is very difficult in part due to the pain and guilt I feel that is grounded in my from co-dependency issues.

[lastwave]

I have not shut the door on him completely but each time I see his manipulating ways, it closes a little more.

I am closing the door...I have come to the conclusion that what I call a friendship is in fact many different actions produced by my co-dependency.  I am hurt and I am angry. By her disposal of me and and angry at myself for letting this happen.
1. Calling what I am doing a "friendship" is continuing the denialred-flag about ever getting anything back--in an emotional context. More specifically having expectationsred-flag that I will  get my needs met.
2.Thinking that I am treating her differently than others have will help her is nothing more than trying to controlred-flag her.
3. Failing to accept my own fear of intimacyred-flag as evidenced by staying with someone who totally lacks the capacity for empathy or to see me as anything other than a paper plate--use and discard.
4. I'm sorry she is a sick person but I'm tired of PRETENDING to be friends so I can stay in denial about her lack of empathy and my co-dependency issues..

I really will enjoy this silent treatment...I hope it lasts...*** you can't be friends with someone who lacks the capacity to formulate and hold abstract ideas like friendship, empathy, or love...

[sm15000]

I am closing the door...I have come to the conclusion that what I call a friendship is in fact many different actions produced by my co-dependency.  I am hurt and I am angry. By her disposal of me and and angry at myself for letting this happen.
1. Calling what I am doing a "friendship" is continuing the denialred-flag about ever getting anything back--in an emotional context. More specifically having expectationsred-flag that I will  get my needs met.
2.Thinking that I am treating her differently than others have will help her is nothing more than trying to controlred-flag her.
3. Failing to accept my own fear of intimacyred-flag as evidenced by staying with someone who totally lacks the capacity for empathy or to see me as anything other than a paper plate--use and discard.
4. I'm sorry she is a sick person but I'm tired of PRETENDING to be friends so I can stay in denial about her lack of empathy and my co-dependency issues..

I really will enjoy this silent treatment...I hope it lasts...*** you can't be friends with someone who lacks the capacity to formulate and hold abstract ideas like friendship, empathy, or love...

Hi Lastwave  Hi!

I'm sorry to hear your situation but I understand it completely.  You seem like you have had a complete realisation of what trying to maintain a friendship with somebody who has this disorder entails. . .and that realisation is very painful but enlightening and WILL result in you becoming stronger. 

The question is what you do now because I know you have become somewhat enmeshed with her again.  I don't think you can do this through words. . .it just doesn't work with them, I think it has to be actions and boundaries.  Do you feel you want to go NC are are you going to try and reduce your involvement?

I have been having E-Mail contact with my ex but with every communication I see (at a distance) what being involved with him as in 'friendship' would mean. . .and for me it would also include a certain amount of dishonesty because 'friendship' and 'what he has done' doesn't gel well in my mind. . .the big fat white elephant will always be in the room.  However, I don't hold romantic expectations. . .I know I don't really love him anymore. . .he's smashed that to pieces.

At the moment he sees my refusal to hook to any of his pulls as a sign that I am involved with someone else. . .it is beyond him to imagine that this is purely down to my realisation of what he has done and that he has caused so much pain for a year there has been no way I would want to either jump in the sack with someone or get into another relationship. . .pure projection because he knows that's how he goes about it 

I have come to the point where I will get my needs met through me. . .I am not bothered what he's doing and have no interest in being his emotional helper. . .that's up to him - after what he's done I don't owe him anything.  I'm not sure where it will end but I feel in control. . .and it feels good 

I wish you all the best. . .I know it is difficult for you with your own issues but don't let her take your life. . .it's yours.  It's very scary to break away/keep distance but it does build an inner strength which is worth having 

[lastwave]

Hi Lastwave  Hi!

I'm sorry to hear your situation but I understand it completely.  You seem like you have had a complete realisation of what trying to maintain a friendship with somebody who has this disorder entails. . .and that realisation is very painful but enlightening and WILL result in you becoming stronger. 

Thanks SM   yes the awareness of what I have been doing and who I  have being doing that with slammed me between Sunday night and yesterday. It is very painful and I am at a loss as to know what to do...I keep looking at the phone expecting her to call or text and not knowing what to do if she does. I have texted her twice and she did answer but very brief terse responses both times cancelling plans we had with half-truths, plausible but transparent. I am ,in spite of the heartbreak, more aware of my own issues and the work I need to do.

The question is what you do now because I know you have become somewhat enmeshed with her again.  I don't think you can do this through words. . .it just doesn't work with them, I think it has to be actions and boundaries.  Do you feel you want to go NC are are you going to try and reduce your involvement?

I don't want to go NC but she is being silent and I am not contacting as of yesterday--this is also painful--but talking to her has never worked because everything iI say is filtered through BPD/NPD thinking--she only hears what validates her behaviors, decisions, and actions. So with the exception of her getting her belongings out of my house at the end of June there is really no reason for me to talk to her. We attend regular weekly meetings but I can change to different ones and avoid running into her.

I have been having E-Mail contact with my ex but with every communication I see (at a distance) what being involved with him as in 'friendship' would mean. . .and for me it would also include a certain amount of dishonesty because 'friendship' and 'what he has done' doesn't gel well in my mind. . .the big fat white elephant will always be in the room.  However, I don't hold romantic expectations. . .I know I don't really love him anymore. . .he's smashed that to pieces.

 She and I were fine until she spotted a guy she is interested in dating on Sunday. Once that happened--nearly instantly--she began moving away. Besides goining silent with me she has changed her behavior to attend a different Wednesday night meeting instead of her normal women's meeting (her new interest was dumped by someone in that woman's meeting) so she can go to a coed meeting and didn't  go to a Monday meeting because that same woman was chairing. She has told lies to me (and others I suppose) and I am now seeing how manipulated I have been.

At the moment he sees my refusal to hook to any of his pulls as a sign that I am involved with someone else. . .it is beyond him to imagine that this is purely down to my realisation of what he has done and that he has caused so much pain for a year there has been no way I would want to either jump in the sack with someone or get into another relationship. . .pure projection because he knows that's how he goes about it 

I have come to the point where I will get my needs met through me. . .I am not bothered what he's doing and have no interest in being his emotional helper. . .that's up to him - after what he's done I don't owe him anything.  I'm not sure where it will end but I feel in control. . .and it feels good 

I wish you all the best. . .I know it is difficult for you with your own issues but don't let her take your life. . .it's yours.  It's very scary to break away/keep distance but it does build an inner strength which is worth having 

Thanks this is difficult and I appreciate your support and advice...

[sm15000]

I keep looking at the phone expecting her to call or text and not knowing what to do if she does. I have texted her twice and she did answer but very brief terse responses both times cancelling plans we had with half-truths, plausible but transparent. I am ,in spite of the heartbreak, more aware of my own issues and the work I need to do

I would try to not 'panic' about a bit of distance. . .you both may need it. . .and the more YOU push, the more it will drive her to keep distance.  Let her come to you and in the meantime try to really think what YOU want.

She and I were fine until she spotted a guy she is interested in dating on Sunday. Once that happened--nearly instantly--she began moving away. Besides goining silent with me she has changed her behavior to attend a different Wednesday night meeting instead of her normal women's meeting (her new interest was dumped by someone in that woman's meeting) so she can go to a coed meeting and didn't  go to a Monday meeting because that same woman was chairing. She has told lies to me (and others I suppose) and I am now seeing how manipulated I have been

To be honest, this is going to be part of the package isn't it. . .she's going to meet new men and has every right to. . .you are just friends right?  Lies are also part of the package because it makes for an easier life. . .if she is concerned you will react, she'll be lying to prevent that too.  In the link I've posted it's interesting to read how someone with codependent issue controls too.

Below is a quote from Randi Kreger. . .I found it registered with me

What you can do is remind yourself that no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. Sometimes the people who love us the most know the triggers that hurt us the most. What does it say about someone who pushes your most painful buttons, yet claims to love you? It says much more about them than you. So not only can you not control their thoughts, you don't need to control their thoughts. Only yours. Strangely, it is only when you give up control that you obtain it.

Also found this link interesting to read

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201204/why-borderlines-and-narcissists-seem-want-power-and-control

Good Luck 

[lastwave]

 Hi! Everybody

Thank you for all the heartfelt support and sharing of your experiences. I will be changing to Staying or Leaving Board which is more appropriate for them position viz my best friend BPD/NPD.

I want to share these last "episodes" since she went silent and I agreed (silently) that this was best. Last night she texted me and I knee jerked responded and then no more texts. This morning a phone call which I missed but she left no message. I knee jerked called her back thirty minutes later and no answer but I did leave a message that I was returning her call.

She doesn't want anything other than to keep me available--protect her source of attention--and use me to triangulate her  new "object of passion." SHE IS NOT ATTEMPTING TO GET BACK TO THE LEVEL OF FRIENDSHIP WE ONCE ENJOYED...(or perhaps this is all we really ever had and I made it a friendship in my mind and heart because I wanted it to be  ).