Dating - where's the spark/excitement?

[Think About It...]

No, I never "try" to impress.  I am impressive person, I don't need to try.

Thanks.

This is btw a precise reason why two nons will never end up together

Have no idea why you'd come to that conclusion, especially considering my GF and I are both nons.

Sorry if that was confusing. I meant two nons of the type from this board - i.e. mainly codependent,  and/or with narcissistic (not NPD) traits (which most of us here are).

Allow me to explain.

You, as a man (who is/was codependent with N traits) expect women to impress you, because, as you say, you are an impressive person (I am sure you are).

I, as a woman (who is/was codependent, with N traits), expect men to impress me, because I also think I am an impressive person (and my accomplishments and personality traits stand behind me for me to think so - and, well, my friends think that too ). Frankly, I also think it is a man's job to impress and woo a woman. Call me old-fashioned

So... if you, as a (codependent/N traits) man think women need to impress you... and I, as a (codependent/N traits) woman think men need to impress me... See... it ain't going nowhere = because both those people would be waiting for the other to impress them

But... I have changed my ways of thinking quite a bit over the last year, and I no longer really classify as a codependent due to much work I have put on me... So now, I think it is natural for both people to want to impress the one they like

[SunflowerFields]

No, I never "try" to impress.  I am impressive person, I don't need to try.

Thanks.

This is btw a precise reason why two nons will never end up together

Have no idea why you'd come to that conclusion, especially considering my GF and I are both nons.

Sorry if that was confusing. I meant two nons of the type from this board - i.e. mainly codependent,  and/or with narcissistic (not NPD) traits (which most of us here are).

Allow me to explain.

You, as a man (who is/was codependent with N traits) expect women to impress you, because, as you say, you are an impressive person (I am sure you are).

I, as a woman (who is/was codependent, with N traits), expect men to impress me, because I also think I am an impressive person (and my accomplishments and personality traits stand behind me for me to think so - and, well, my friends think that too ). Frankly, I also think it is a man's job to impress and woo a woman. Call me old-fashioned

So... if you, as a (codependent/N traits) man think women need to impress you... and I, as a (codependent/N traits) woman think men need to impress me... See... it ain't going nowhere = because both those people would be waiting for the other to impress them

But... I have changed my ways of thinking quite a bit over the last year, and I no longer really classify as a codependent due to much work I have put on me... So now, I think it is natural for both people to want to impress the one they like

[hijodeganas]

No, I never "try" to impress.  I am impressive person, I don't need to try.

Thanks.

This is btw a precise reason why two nons will never end up together

Have no idea why you'd come to that conclusion, especially considering my GF and I are both nons.

Sorry if that was confusing. I meant two nons of the type from this board - i.e. mainly codependent,  and/or with narcissistic (not NPD) traits (which most of us here are).

Allow me to explain.

You, as a man (who is/was codependent with N traits) expect women to impress you, because, as you say, you are an impressive person (I am sure you are).

I, as a woman (who is/was codependent, with N traits), expect men to impress me, because I also think I am an impressive person (and my accomplishments and personality traits stand behind me for me to think so - and, well, my friends think that too ). Frankly, I also think it is a man's job to impress and woo a woman. Call me old-fashioned

So... if you, as a (codependent/N traits) man think women need to impress you... and I, as a (codependent/N traits) woman think men need to impress me... See... it ain't going nowhere = because both those people would be waiting for the other to impress them

But... I have changed my ways of thinking quite a bit over the last year, and I no longer really classify as a codependent due to much work I have put on me... So now, I think it is natural for both people to want to impress the one they like

I'm neither codependent nor NPD. But have a ball making wispy assumption over thin slices into my personality.  

Or you could stop doing that and read more carefully next time: I never said women HAVE to impress me. I said the opposite in fact.

One quality of hers that impressed me: she never thought she had people sized up from a few comments. Which is a narcissistic trait if I've ever seen one.

[ellil]

I've been following this thread with great interest.

I've been wondering if I'm even going to recognize any male ever again as a potential r/s partner, or if I'm just going to be "numb" forever and keep making a lot of new friends.

And it's not just in the romance area with this--I love my activities. It seems I have great passion for painting, hiking, mushroom foraging, my daughter...but my emotions on nearly every other level (even anger but not to the degree with r/s's) seem somewhat flat. It seems I'm as happy doing things alone as I am doing anything with anyone else or even friends. Sometimes I'd actually prefer to do things alone.

It's like my passions, with the exception of the above, are gone. There's no "wow" factor being with anyone. And there's this "budding" r/s with a man who although average looking, is in excellent shape, educated with a ph.d in psychology, settled, great job, easy communications...but all I feel for anyone seems to be just flat-line.

The thing is, I have no clue if this is the normal evolution of a r/s or if I'm simply indifferent, i.e., numb.

I don't know what normal is.

It's weird, but I think, at least for me, I've moved to the other end of the spectrum.

M

[Want2know]

I was talking with a guy friend, just turned 50, and he is single.  Had some bad relationships, but wants to be with someone.  He said he had totally changed his expectations of what he wanted out of a partner.  He didn't emphasize sex, but instead he wanted companionship.  I liked his perspective, and can only hope that when I do find a companion, that there is a spark.  Haven't gotten there yet, but am not totally discouraged.

[Upnorth]

I was talking with a guy friend, just turned 50, and he is single.  Had some bad relationships, but wants to be with someone.  He said he had totally changed his expectations of what he wanted out of a partner.  He didn't emphasize sex, but instead he wanted companionship.  I liked his perspective, and can only hope that when I do find a companion, that there is a spark.  Haven't gotten there yet, but am not totally discouraged.

I certainly agree!
I have been in four r/s during 30 years. I never felt any sudden spark!. Except the last time, I even felt a bit put a way by them. They did not seem to have a personality I that matted mine, and they did not look like people who normally interests me. If things had been different I would just have walked pass them never recognizing them. However, all of them grew tremendous when I had known them for half a year or so. In my opinion "romantic sparks" are highly overrated!


  

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT The objective of this board is to learn and apply healthy emotional practices to the rebuilding of our love life. This board is about the discipline and strength of making those hard choices in life for good sustained emotional health. It is about not repeating the problems of the past; it is about understanding the wounds and baggage we carry forward, it is about healthy and practical ways to build new relationships. Click on "more information" for access to the lessons.

[pallavirajsinghani]

The brain gets flooded with chemicals that are similar in a state of anxiety (adrenalin) and ecstacy (endorphins).  In each case, this state of mind can only last for a short while before the burn out.  Brain needs "ordinary" life to function well and replenish these.

So perhaps you are confusing Anxiety with Excitement.  And Passion with an adrenalin rush.

Your brain could be acting like the brain of an addict.  Sugar high vs. nutritious food.  Your brain is craving for the former while your intelligence is telling you that it is harmful for you.

So here is the solution I offer:

Relationships are supposed to be the foundation upon which the superstructure of our emotional lives can be created.  Relationships are NOT an end in themselves, but a means to an end.  And the end is fullest self-realization.  That is, the ego blossoming to its fullest capability.

Hence:  A normal ordinary relationship is a must...the excitement and the passion comes from:  Hiking, Biking, Painting, Writing, Running a marathon, being an entrepreneur, creating and sustaining a family, dirtbiking...you get the picture. 

One loves one's SO, but the passion is music or motorcycles or preparing to climb a mountain or saving to kayak in the Amazon...

My husband loves me, but his passion is music and motorcycles.

My sister loves her husband, but her passion is teaching.

I love my husband, but my passion is academic scholarship.

The excitement and the spark should come from the passion.  The sense of calm and stability should come from viable relationship(s).

Hope this helps.

[C12P21]

Hence:  A normal ordinary relationship is a must...the excitement and the passion comes from:  Hiking, Biking, Painting, Writing, Running a marathon, being an entrepreneur, creating and sustaining a family, dirtbiking...you get the picture.

One loves one's SO, but the passion is music or motorcycles or preparing to climb a mountain or saving to kayak in the Amazon...

My husband loves me, but his passion is music and motorcycles.

My sister loves her husband, but her passion is teaching.

I love my husband, but my passion is academic scholarship.

The excitement and the spark should come from the passion.  The sense of calm and stability should come from viable relationship(s).

Very well stated and true of my experience. I love my friendship and am passionate about gardening. 
C

[C12P21]

But the way you describe him is hardly that of the guy that takes your breath away that you want to be with forever.

That's just it, I am taking this very slow because I want to really know him without the complications of passion. I know that passion builds in a relationship and I do not feel passion for someone based on desire but rather the kind of person they are. The times I felt most passionate toward my exnpdbf were moments spent hiking, running or sharing a mutual interest. Don't get me wrong, I loved him very much..but believed we were friends and valued the friendship-the sharing of our lives, until he became abusive  ? and then the friendship faded as did the relationship.
I hope this helps.
C

[truly amazed]

Great thread,



I did a response some time ago but it timed out and was lost.

As some said the lack of excitement or spark as such compared to the previous totally unhealthy RS most of us were in with a BPD partner is normal. Very normal. What was for me abnormal was in fact the BPD RS and expecting to feel the same highs and lows ... taken to the moon only to be burnt to a crisp is not a relationship.

I did this test on the following link about a healthy RS and sadly scored with my ex on her part a dismal low. Not me, but her, she didn't and wasn't interested in me really after the honeymoon and it was about her from then on. Nothing like being out of the FOG :}

Characteristics of Healthy Relationships
http://www.BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a115.htm

Post BPD RS my ex moved on within 7 days was living with her new boy. Even prior to this he was being made ready. An aside.

About 3 months after the break, I felt the need to at least try. I wasn't ready, not even close. Strangely as the gods would have it met someone in a   similar place out of a RS with someone with a PD. Both of us covered as it were in fleas  from previous unhealthy RS's.

We both resisted but were attracted to each other in so many ways. Physical, interests, values and so on.

All of this said, its not like the BPD RS and will never be. I dont miss being idolized and taken so far up your close to the sun only then to be actually taken back down and push pull of the BPD dance.

Is it this spark that is missing ? This excitement ? For me having looked at the dynamics of the RS the excitement yes was there and yes the spark but in so many ways it was like being a trained pavlovian dog. You were taken to such heights only to be fried  via abuse and then given a reward for enduring it.

In many ways going into a RS after a dysfunctional one I had to ignore much of what happened during the previous one and rely on an older normal RS as a road map. But yes the fleas were there.

I am happy in my new RS but its an aside. I didn't settle for less ... and ended up with more. Without ignoring everything from the prior RS I doubt I would have made it or we would have made it. So many, myself included are shaped by our past experiences and at times I have to pull myself up and ask is it logical or normal my reaction ?  I have found my reaction sometimes is not about what is going on right now but a trigger from the previous RS and as such has to be taken out of the equation.

Another side to the coin is hearing people 10 years out of a very awful RS still bitter and hurt seeing red flags everywhere. I don't know the correct balance about being careful and not taking heed of red flags. Life is too short but on the other hand take time to heal, but not too much. 


Each of us has their own limits. I do know however if I had found a partner with the exact same spark and excitement the previous one gave I would run for the hills as more than likely it would involve getting on the BPD merry go round again ... this time with a new driver.

This of course is just my take on the situation and my own story. Each of us is different and for me happy as I have been in many many years where I am now. No I correct myself happy as I have ever been :}

Take care 

[ellil]

So here is the solution I offer:

Relationships are supposed to be the foundation upon which the superstructure of our emotional lives can be created.  Relationships are NOT an end in themselves, but a means to an end.  And the end is fullest self-realization.  That is, the ego blossoming to its fullest capability.

Hence:  A normal ordinary relationship is a must...the excitement and the passion comes from:  Hiking, Biking, Painting, Writing, Running a marathon, being an entrepreneur, creating and sustaining a family, dirtbiking...you get the picture.  

One loves one's SO, but the passion is music or motorcycles or preparing to climb a mountain or saving to kayak in the Amazon...

My husband loves me, but his passion is music and motorcycles.

My sister loves her husband, but her passion is teaching.

I love my husband, but my passion is academic scholarship.

The excitement and the spark should come from the passion.  The sense of calm and stability should come from viable relationship(s).

Hope this helps.

Hmmmm. I think this really does help and has given me a lot to think about and mull over--I've been so conditioned, however it happened, to equate passion and love, not that I can't love without passion (the "rush," the "chemical action"), and I think I have to let go of that notion of having to have the neuro/bio reaction...yet that idea of a "spark" is still so ingrained, and why it is the words "calm" and "stability" bring and immediate thought of "boring" if it doesn't include "spark." I have calm and stability right now, 100%, in my life--peace, all by myself.

This is really good stuff you posted. Thank you!

M

[discardedbf]

Thanks everyone for the responses.. Certainly created a new perspective to think about..

Elli - I think our thoughts were very similar and it was my therapist who re affirmed them with the discarded.. Don't you want to be in love? Have the butterflies? Do not just settle.. However it seems from this thread that stability and calmness are associated with the healthy long lasting relationships..

I guess it's transitioning from wanting the girl who walks in the room who turns heads to the one that provides stability to my life..

I feel guilty as I potentially hurt a girl I was dating as I did not pursue it.. Due to the lack of spark so to speak and my overall indifference to the potential relationship..

I guess part of me still holds onto the boom she's the one attitude and we will live happily ever after.. It seems a relationship needs to evolve to this point...

Mmmmm still alot to consider. I guess in the past I looked for that instant attraction and look what it got me? A 2.5 yr stint with a BPD and failed relationships before hand.

It's funny how in every other aspect of my life there is some predictability I'm a lawyer so deal in fact.. I participate in martial art tournaments and can train diet and do well.. But this relationship stuff - NO IDEA?

[pallavirajsinghani]

In my humdrum ordinary middle class stable life...there is a passion.  Every single time I see my husband, I am struck again by how handsome he is (to another person's eyes, he has the legs of a super model and a chest with only 4 hair and he drags his feet and walks pigeon toed and has narrow shoulders).  Some days I can't keep my hands off him when I see him being such a good and patient father.  Somedays he is the moon and the stars because he has spent the entire day helping his elderly parents.  The days he works 14 hours to feed and clothe us, is the day when I could swoon over this prince charming.  Yet, he brings me no roses...no candles...but the gentle way he naturally holds my hand when we walk together, and the way he lets out a satisfied sleepy lion's grunt when I come to bed and he is asleep...

Believe me, romance is there.  Only it's expression may be different.

I could absolutely lay my life down for this "ordinary" "boring" man.  If this is not passion, I don't know what is.

:-)

[ellil]

Thanks everyone for the responses.. Certainly created a new perspective to think about..

Elli - I think our thoughts were very similar and it was my therapist who re affirmed them with the discarded.. Don't you want to be in love? Have the butterflies? Do not just settle.. However it seems from this thread that stability and calmness are associated with the healthy long lasting relationships..

Well, I guess what we're talking about here is what does it mean "to be in love"? What does that entail? We all agree that stability and calmness are REQUIRED--I'd even say they are required even more than "spark." Have you reassessed your "spark" requirement? Or is it settling for us to give up that butterfly feeling, to keep our passion only in relation to hobbies/likes/tastes and not let it cross over into r/s's?

I guess it's transitioning from wanting the girl who walks in the room who turns heads to the one that provides stability to my life..

Have you completed this transition? I know I have. I admit I was very superficial when choosing my exBPDbf waif...do you think this may still be something for you to watch out for?

I feel guilty as I potentially hurt a girl I was dating as I did not pursue it.. Due to the lack of spark so to speak and my overall indifference to the potential relationship..

I think part of our tendencies are to feel guilty--that seems to be a shared trait among a lot of us here. How long were you dating this woman? I mean there are reasons some people remain friends and some people grow to be something more.

I guess part of me still holds onto the boom she's the one attitude and we will live happily ever after.. It seems a relationship needs to evolve to this point...

EXACTLY. However, at what point do we recognize that something is not going to evolve passed where we are now? Maybe that's what happened with the girl you mentioned above.

Do you think you've shed the notion of "she's the one"? I don't believe in "The One" anymore, or "Soulmates"--and this is not a bad thing. When I believe in "The One," it takes the idea of r/s's requiring work away. If someone is "The One," then you wouldn't have to work at the r/s. This is a huge turnaround for me resulting from my BPD r/s.

Mmmmm still alot to consider. I guess in the past I looked for that instant attraction and look what it got me? A 2.5 yr stint with a BPD and failed relationships before hand.

I could've written this myself.

For me, I don't believe I was taught, or perhaps I just never listened, what a healthy r/s was, because of FOO issues. I am stunted in this area. I think "attraction" is no longer on my "immediate" list, where well there are certain other "must haves"--these are my values. I value stability, dependability, individuality (mine), and a few other things.

Have you identified now with what your values are? Before attraction comes in for me, how they mesh with my values is the "immediate" thing...then, if attraction grows, I think it may be moved into the "potential r/s" category.

It's funny how in every other aspect of my life there is some predictability I'm a lawyer so deal in fact.. I participate in martial art tournaments and can train diet and do well.. But this relationship stuff - NO IDEA?

I hear ya! I am an accountant--there ain't no career dealing more in fact and black & white than that.

But it really has  no bearing on what we were taught, what we perceived, the criteria for a healthy relationship is.

You are disciplined. Do you believe right now, after your growth out of the BPD r/s, that you can transfer that discipline to maintaining your boundaries that surround your values? Do you know what your values are?

I've enjoyed this thread very much! Thought provoking.

M

[ellil]

In my humdrum ordinary middle class stable life...there is a passion.  Every single time I see my husband, I am struck again by how handsome he is (to another person's eyes, he has the legs of a super model and a chest with only 4 hair and he drags his feet and walks pigeon toed and has narrow shoulders).  Some days I can't keep my hands off him when I see him being such a good and patient father.  Somedays he is the moon and the stars because he has spent the entire day helping his elderly parents.  The days he works 14 hours to feed and clothe us, is the day when I could swoon over this prince charming.  Yet, he brings me no roses...no candles...but the gentle way he naturally holds my hand when we walk together, and the way he lets out a satisfied sleepy lion's grunt when I come to bed and he is asleep...

Believe me, romance is there.  Only it's expression may be different.

I could absolutely lay my life down for this "ordinary" "boring" man.  If this is not passion, I don't know what is.

:-)

Yikes! Please don't think I was calling your husband or marriage boring. It was more identifying my problem, not yours--my problem of equating stability and calm with boring...that is a problem for me in my idea of r/s's. What I want is what you have! I just have to be able to identify this in my life regarding the men I may date.

Your post was dealing strictly with passions for things other than the partner--this most recent post really sums up what I think most of us are looking for, fer sure.

M

[AnonNZ]

I've been wondering if I'm even going to recognize any male ever again as a potential r/s partner, or if I'm just going to be "numb" forever and keep making a lot of new friends.

I was in the same position (well change male for female) for three years after my relationship with a pwBPD and felt exactly the same way. I was enjoying my own company and looking at all of my friends in relationships wondering why they put up with all the hassles that came along with being in one. Then one day I started a Skype conversation with someone from work and 'bam' there was interest. Not sure where it came from and had no expectations or intention of chasing it, but the more we talked, the more the interest grew, and I was feeling something I hadn't felt, or wanted to feel, in three years.

I think it's healthy to feel the way you're feeling at the moment - it just means you haven't met anyone worth considering compromising the lifestyle you currently have.

[pallavirajsinghani]

No Ellis: You did not imply that my marriage is boring.  No need to apologize or explain.

My Marriage is truly boring and ordinary from the outside.  It is boring as defined by the "lack of spark" "lack of excitement" bit.

I made the comparison not to disparage one, nor the other.  I made the comparison to illustrate that in a right relationship, Loving gets transformed into being in love.

The best adventure is in the mind, in the perspective.  The highs can and ought to come from within oneself without putting the pressure on another person to take us into that state of the high.

Can you imagine the tremendous pressure any SO would feel when he/she senses that he/she is being assigned the role of a messiah, one bringing perpetual rapture and ecstacy and spark and excitement and...

Once we understand that it is OUR imagination that is bringing in this spark and excitement, we learn about our own power.  We then do not assign this power to any other person---non or BPD sufferer.  We claim this special unique characteristic for ourselves.

This frees us to make the choices that we make.  We know then...whether WE want them or not, instead of always wondering whether THEY want us or not.

I believe this to be true in all relationships.

Recognition that the only freedom that we truly have is the freedom to choose our perspective and attitude is a very hard thing to do.  It also tells us of our own limitations.  It also tells us, ironically, of our own strengths.

In dichotomy is unity...except that it is a personal, individual journey.  Others can point the way, but the path has to be walked and the monsters of nihilism have to be fought personally, by oneself.

[Gowest]

I am just trying to figure out the dynamics of a normal relationship. I do not want to just settle with someone because its "ok" i guess my therapist planted this in my head when i talked about my recent dating experiences.. her reply was discarded dont you want to be in love? dont you want that butterfly feeling again? Dont you want to be excited to speak to this person? do not settle just because it is comfortable.

Not every book, song, or poem written about passionate love was about someone with BPD, you know?

I'm 100% sure that the guy I'm dating now doesn't have BPD. How healthy he is aside from that, I don't know. His relationship history, not a clue. I really look forward to seeing him and get a jolt when he sends me a text. On our last date, we were bumbling around trying to find a place and a crazy yelling person passed us on the sidewalk. We reacted the same way, by completely pretending that it wasn't happening, but after he gave me a look, and I keep thinking about it and getting all giggly. There was no passion, but just a sense of connection.

It's not like when I met my ex and was immediately convinced that I'd found my prince for life and all my dreams had come true. It's not about instant love or passion, but it's still exciting and sweet and just fun. I'm enjoying the process of getting to know him. I was always afraid to tell my ex things about myself, but here if I share something about myself, I get something about him back. It's nice.

I attempted to "settle" for "boring" before and I just couldn't stomach it. It felt like I was lying. But one person's boring is another person's treasure. I suspect that if we get to the point of meeting each other's friends, my friend won't get the attraction at all. There's boring and then there's boring, and different people are going to disagree over what that means. I quit seeing my last Mr Boring because I realized I'd rather stay home by myself than hang out with him. That's the wrong kind of boring.

[C12P21]

Recognition that the only freedom that we truly have is the freedom to choose our perspective and attitude is a very hard thing to do.  It also tells us of our own limitations.  It also tells us, ironically, of our own strengths.

Exactly. Thanks for your great posts as you are articulate and I connect with what you are stating. I have this common man in my life and when I look at him I think, how is it that he passes for this common guy when he has many attributes.
The attributes are not ones that sends shivers up and down my spine, instead it is a laugh or giggle, or a feisty conversation. I like the way he reads books and we share them and talk, or how he comes by and helps me in the yard.
Its just an easy relationship like a pair of favorite slippers you slip on and think, ahh, these feel great.
C

[pallavirajsinghani]

C12P21:    ...and then you will have moments of sheer rapture, sheer ecstacy...a total and utter high...the feeling of "being in love".  :-)

[C12P21]

C12P21:    ...and then you will have moments of sheer rapture, sheer ecstacy...a total and utter high...the feeling of "being in love".  :-)

Yes, this is true but I won't allow myself to go there as of yet. I look at him and have those feelings but keep it at bay, I plan on giving the r/s more time to develop.