Do we have the power to make it better?

[Think About It....]

I read on these boards a lot about the if only she was normal...less volatile... better behaved... more accommodating.

A lot of placing the factor of equalization on the disordered ex. Not all of it, but certainly the bulk of it. They're the crazy ones afterall.

The disordered soul in my life can make a sunny afternoon turn to sh*t in a single fell swoop. She's the master at it actually. Whether at a ballpark or a birthday party, she can reek havoc because she's having a bad day. My solution once was to avoid such events as to avoid her turmoil. I was missing out on the lives on the kiddos though. They were missing out on me.

I have no control over her - no more then she does me.

She's allowed to dislike me for any reason on any given day. I just wonder if the solution always has to be to push back, stand my ground in my rights as a parent (or vicarously thru my husband's rights as a parent). She likes to play MOTY cheering the loudest at a Softball game that she contributed ZERO dollars to...

So what?

I feel like I've stopped listening to her. I have dug my heels in the sand thinking that we are the "better" equipped household in parenting.  Therefore when my Stepdaughter rushes home to tell me that she is going to run for Class President and wants my help... my excitement and pride for my SD creeps in - but so does my ego that has me thinking to myself "I'm so great" because she wants *my* help. I then secretly compare my greatness to the other household and stand tall in my judgement of her in all her disordered glory.

No wonder she constantly is trying to prove her worth and one up me any chance she gets. No wonder she puts on the grand show at a Softball game - over the top cheering with passive aggressive jabs thrown in my general direction... and running up to my Stepdaughter smothering her in hugs and congratulations. Perhaps she's just a proud mama who feels like she's gotta out-parent her former counterpart.

Why wouldn't she?  

Hell, I'm starting to see that I really believe we all are doing it actually.

I read this blog post from Confessions of A divorced kid:  
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-campbell/confessions-of-a-divorce-_3_b_1446808.html?ref=email_share

It's the bottom of the ninth. Full count, two outs and the bases are loaded. I could win the game with one accurate swing. The weight of the world is on my 10-year-old shoulders.

But standing there, staring into the pitcher's eyes, I'm not thinking about the fact that I could win or lose a big game for my team. I'm too worried about after the game -- and mom and dad sitting on opposite sides of the bleachers, their gaze cast down on me like white-hot spotlights.

When the game ends, win or lose, which parent will I go to first?

It might seem like a small-potatoes dilemma for a white suburban child of divorce. But awkward baseball games -- and all the divorce politics that come with them -- are some of my most vivid memories, mostly because they were the most stressful events of my young life. I mean, I could win a baseball game any time, but I had the emotional scarring and heart-breaking of two sets of parents to worry about.

Indeed, baseball games had so little to do with baseball, and so much to do with the divorce. It was as if two warring factions were meeting on the battlefield, and their tactics involved one-upping each other with better juice boxes at post-game snack time. My affection was the spoil of war.

They had their tactics, and I had mine. I took mental note of how many breaks I took with each parent, how many high fives I doled out and at what volume I called step-mom, "Mom." If I was on the mound, I made grinning glances at each of up to four parents between pitches. Seventh-inning stretch involved sitting and talking with each group for such precisely equal amounts of time, it made our supposedly "equal" visitation schedule look like it was organized by, well, children.

I'm not saying I had horrible parents. On the contrary -- both sets molded me into the all-around bad ass I am today. Sure, there were times when one parent would put me in the middle of an argument that wasn't mine to have. But overall my folks had no idea what stress-induced havoc they were wreaking on my young brain.

The awkward baseball game is a prime example of where divorced parents can go very right or horribly wrong with their children. I know that most divorce kids, like me, think about their parents' feelings way more than is readily apparent. I would try not to offend anyone, which weighed on me so heavily it would often bring me to tears.

And that's why the best divorced parent is the one who can see how hard it is for their kids to worry about such frivolous things. The best parent is the one who cares so much about their child that they don't care where the kid sits; one that will love their kid just the same even if he sits with the "other" parent at a thousand seventh-inning stretches.

The best parent is the one who can see that I'm not super excited about my game-winning shot to left-center. My dad approaches the field -- the first parent to see me after my big game -- and pulls a move that should be in every divorced parent's handbook.

"Awesome game, Andy, you kicked butt out there," he says with a smile. "Go say hi to your mother -- I'll be around if you wanna play catch before you go. If not, no problem, we'll play catch on Thursday."

Thanks, pops. Weight lifted.

Interesting indeed.

[DreamGirl]

I read on these boards a lot about the if only she was normal...less volatile... better behaved... more accommodating.

A lot of placing the factor of equalization on the disordered ex. Not all of it, but certainly the bulk of it. They're the crazy ones afterall.

The disordered soul in my life can make a sunny afternoon turn to sh*t in a single fell swoop. She's the master at it actually. Whether at a ballpark or a birthday party, she can reek havoc because she's having a bad day. My solution once was to avoid such events as to avoid her turmoil. I was missing out on the lives on the kiddos though. They were missing out on me.

I have no control over her - no more then she does me.

She's allowed to dislike me for any reason on any given day. I just wonder if the solution always has to be to push back, stand my ground in my rights as a parent (or vicarously thru my husband's rights as a parent). She likes to play MOTY cheering the loudest at a Softball game that she contributed ZERO dollars to...

So what?

I feel like I've stopped listening to her. I have dug my heels in the sand thinking that we are the "better" equipped household in parenting.  Therefore when my Stepdaughter rushes home to tell me that she is going to run for Class President and wants my help... my excitement and pride for my SD creeps in - but so does my ego that has me thinking to myself "I'm so great" because she wants *my* help. I then secretly compare my greatness to the other household and stand tall in my judgement of her in all her disordered glory.

No wonder she constantly is trying to prove her worth and one up me any chance she gets. No wonder she puts on the grand show at a Softball game - over the top cheering with passive aggressive jabs thrown in my general direction... and running up to my Stepdaughter smothering her in hugs and congratulations. Perhaps she's just a proud mama who feels like she's gotta out-parent her former counterpart.

Why wouldn't she?  

Hell, I'm starting to see that I really believe we all are doing it actually.

I read this blog post from Confessions of A divorced kid:  
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-campbell/confessions-of-a-divorce-_3_b_1446808.html?ref=email_share

It's the bottom of the ninth. Full count, two outs and the bases are loaded. I could win the game with one accurate swing. The weight of the world is on my 10-year-old shoulders.

But standing there, staring into the pitcher's eyes, I'm not thinking about the fact that I could win or lose a big game for my team. I'm too worried about after the game -- and mom and dad sitting on opposite sides of the bleachers, their gaze cast down on me like white-hot spotlights.

When the game ends, win or lose, which parent will I go to first?

It might seem like a small-potatoes dilemma for a white suburban child of divorce. But awkward baseball games -- and all the divorce politics that come with them -- are some of my most vivid memories, mostly because they were the most stressful events of my young life. I mean, I could win a baseball game any time, but I had the emotional scarring and heart-breaking of two sets of parents to worry about.

Indeed, baseball games had so little to do with baseball, and so much to do with the divorce. It was as if two warring factions were meeting on the battlefield, and their tactics involved one-upping each other with better juice boxes at post-game snack time. My affection was the spoil of war.

They had their tactics, and I had mine. I took mental note of how many breaks I took with each parent, how many high fives I doled out and at what volume I called step-mom, "Mom." If I was on the mound, I made grinning glances at each of up to four parents between pitches. Seventh-inning stretch involved sitting and talking with each group for such precisely equal amounts of time, it made our supposedly "equal" visitation schedule look like it was organized by, well, children.

I'm not saying I had horrible parents. On the contrary -- both sets molded me into the all-around bad ass I am today. Sure, there were times when one parent would put me in the middle of an argument that wasn't mine to have. But overall my folks had no idea what stress-induced havoc they were wreaking on my young brain.

The awkward baseball game is a prime example of where divorced parents can go very right or horribly wrong with their children. I know that most divorce kids, like me, think about their parents' feelings way more than is readily apparent. I would try not to offend anyone, which weighed on me so heavily it would often bring me to tears.

And that's why the best divorced parent is the one who can see how hard it is for their kids to worry about such frivolous things. The best parent is the one who cares so much about their child that they don't care where the kid sits; one that will love their kid just the same even if he sits with the "other" parent at a thousand seventh-inning stretches.

The best parent is the one who can see that I'm not super excited about my game-winning shot to left-center. My dad approaches the field -- the first parent to see me after my big game -- and pulls a move that should be in every divorced parent's handbook.

"Awesome game, Andy, you kicked butt out there," he says with a smile. "Go say hi to your mother -- I'll be around if you wanna play catch before you go. If not, no problem, we'll play catch on Thursday."

Thanks, pops. Weight lifted.

Interesting indeed.

[beyondbelief]

Kids do sense what is going on though often they don't overtly express it and sometimes it does take awhile for them to get it.

Unfortunately in times past I did indirectly add unnecessary drama to my kids' lives.  I did this by engaging with the X in circular arguments (not in front of the kids).  Usually she initiated it but I had a choice and often chose poorly.  The X would get so worked up she would often take at least some of it out on the kids.  I took the wrong path and they suffered from it.

My X does her best to be elected MOTY.  I would much rather vote for her than compete with her.  The kids trust me with things they would never tell their mother.  They get mad at me sometimes but always know their best interests are my primary concern. With a bit of luck they will all come out winners. 

[motwgk]

"Awesome game, Andy, you kicked butt out there," he says with a smile. "Go say hi to your mother -- I'll be around if you wanna play catch before you go. If not, no problem, we'll play catch on Thursday."

This really struck a chord with me. Always be willing to foster the relationship with the other parent. I've had X explode on D - loudly, publicly, and angrily - for just handing me her headband. She's old enough that she sees and understands the differences between us.

I'm pretty sticky about making sure D acknowledges me at an event when she's with X. Just smile my way, wave, come up and say hi, *something* more than igrnoing me. There have been times when it's just a smile when she sees me, and I'm pretty much ok with that, given that she could get yelled at for more. Other than that, I have few expectations, and hope she doesn't feel pressured for who she has to go to first, talk to first, whatever.

And when she's with me, I *always* make sure she spends some time talking with X, and I make sure I'm smiling as she does it.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[sanemom]

No wonder she constantly is trying to prove her worth and one up me any chance she gets. No wonder she puts on the grand show at a Softball game - over the top cheering with passive aggressive jabs thrown in my general direction... and running up to my Stepdaughter smothering her in hugs and congratulations. Perhaps she's just a proud mama who feels like she's gotta out-parent her former counterpart.

This struck a chord with me.  I was thinking the other day that BPDmom IS intimidated by me and our life...we have good educations, successful jobs, and I know the kids have told her that I am "more energetic" with them, which can't feel good.  Her self-esteem as a mom is not high, and I need to do my part not to intentionally make it lower, and, at the same time, not to lower my own standards just to make her feel better.  Does that make sense?

DH is pretty good at telling the kids to go see their mom. 

I am better about being gracious to my own ex, who has hurt me in innumerable ways, than BPDmom for the simple reason that my ex has stopped trying to hurt me while she continues to lash out randomly.  Also, I think my ex owns his dysfunction while she continues to pretend she has it together.

Regardless, those kids need their mom.  We all do.  And none of our moms are perfect.

[Matt]

I guess the way I try to balance it out is to continue to see my ex as I see her - dysfunctional, aggressive, and potentially harmful to the kids - and to feel about her what I feel - not as strong as in the past but still hurt, cautious, and sometimes disgusted.  But to do my best not to dump that on the kids, or interfere with their relationship with their mom.

Not always easy;  sometimes I have to feel one way and act another.  If I'm told that she did or said something I know isn't right, unless it's very serious, usually I just have to let it go, or manage it by making sure the kids are able to handle it, without making a huge issue of it.  While inside I may be feeling more strongly about it than I'm letting on.

That's stressful - the gap between what I feel and what I say and do.  In other areas of my life, I try to get those in synch.  This is the one area where that's not always the right thing to do, and I just have to manage that extra stress that comes from not saying what's really on my mind.  And find other outlets (like here) to vent it.

Where my view may be a little different from yours, DG, is that I'm not tempted by the "moral equivalency" that suggests that our different approaches - mine and my ex's - are equally good - that her view of me is just as valid as my view of her.  That's not the case legally, since I'm in compliance with the court order and she's not (refusing court-ordered treatment, for example).  But more important, I don't think all parenting approaches are equally good, and I don't think the truth is relative (at least not all the time).  When she accuses me of something that I didn't do, that's not shades of gray - she may believe what she's saying but it is objectively false and I think that's very important.

I think it's important (to me anyway) to keep tethered to reality like that, and not doubt myself too much, if I can look myself in the mirror and make sure I'm doing what I think is best for the kids.  Not that I'm always right, but that I am basing what I do on reality, and not justifying it by anything false.

But yes, to the kids, all that is pretty abstract or invisible.  What it should look like, most of the time, is Dad doing what's needed, with very little focus on Mom or on the past.  So the boy in the story - if one parent is healthy and the other one has BPD - may not recognize, at 10, how the burden on the healthy parent is very different from the burden on the parent with BPD.  The child's view isn't the whole story...

[sanemom]

That's stressful - the gap between what I feel and what I say and do.  In other areas of my life, I try to get those in synch.  This is the one area where that's not always the right thing to do, and I just have to manage that extra stress that comes from not saying what's really on my mind.  And find other outlets (like here) to vent it.

This sounds related to what I feel is the biggest difficulty for me as well..in other relationships, if a person has wronged me, I let them know.  I am honest.  I generally tell people what I think, and I believe most would consider me a genuine person.

I could tell my ex that I don't agree with him letting the girls watch ? movie, and he may react sheepishly or agree and not do it again. 

If we told that to dh's BPD ex she would pretend she didn't do it at all or would lash out about something random she thinks we did.  We can't have a real conversation with her; we can't tell her how we really feel because who knows how she will react (it all depends on which direction the wind is blowing).  Instead our conversations are more like chess moves--hoping to get the desired outcome by being artificial. 

And it just feels like a lie.

[Matt]

Regardless, those kids need their mom.  We all do.  And none of our moms are perfect.

I have a good friend, Mark, who was married for about 20 years.  His wife had schizophrenia, but refused medication, so she got worse and worse, threatened him and accused him (and once me!) of crazy stuff, and demanded a divorce.  Finally he agreed to that, for his own sake and the sake of their two sons, who were about 5 and 10 at the time.

She left town and hasn't contacted the kids since - about 3 years since they heard from her.  She was in an institution for awhile, and now he's not sure where she is.

Since she left, both kids have done much better.  The younger boy has some issues but is coping well, and his big brother is doing better in school and seems very happy.  They both are said about their mom and I'm sure it hurts them, but all in all it's pretty clear they are better off now than when she was around.

My ex's behavior is much milder - she has BPD and some other stuff and has refused treatment, and has been violent and made false accusations, but since we separated and I have very little contact with her things have been better.  The kids see her regularly and that usually goes OK.

We say "motherhood and apple pie" to mean anything wholesome and good, and that's usually right.  But I don't believe that all kids do better when their biological mother is around, and I think if we assume that - no matter what her behavior is - we're lowering the bar too much and maybe putting the kids at risk.

(Same the other way around of course - if it's the dad that has the psychological problem.)

[DreamGirl]

Matt, with all due respect - and I mean that - I think you have your own black and white thinking when it comes to this.

BPDmom = Bad

No BPDmom = Good
 

[Matt]

Matt, with all due respect - and I mean that - I think you have your own black and white thinking when it comes to this.

BPDmom = Bad

No BPDmom = Good
 

Well I've never taken any action to remove my ex from the picture - initially I thought that might be worth considering, but  after her low point, when we separated, her behavior hasn't warranted even considering that.  I have found that the kids do best when they see her regularly but not too much, and that's how it works out most of the time.

So judging by my actions - I've been living in the gray for five years now - no, I don't think it's black and white.

That's why I gave those two examples.  My friend Mark - his ex's issue is schizophrenia, not BPD - is an example where the kids are probably better off not seeing their mom at all - sad but true.  Others here have different experiences, all along the spectrum.

My point was, I think the spectrum goes all the way, including the extreme where the kids may be better off not seeing their BPD mom (or BPD dad) at all.  To me, the black-and-white thinking would be to say, "All kids should spend unsupervised time with their mom regularly, no matter how unhealthy she might be."

[JustSaying]

Hell, I'm starting to see that I really believe we all are doing it actually.

I read that article yesterday and felt so sad for the kid.

Something I'm satisfied with is that everyone around me has focused on behaviors and not reasons. Neither friends nor family have explored X's diagnosis or gotten into psychological interpretations of the 'she has ____ and therefore she's unfit to ____' sort.

But they do note behaviors they either like or don't like, fear or don't fear. In a note to the CE, two witnesses commented extensively on how X would act overtly competitive for D's attention when we were all in the same place. Others would comment on what they observed of the interactions between parent and child, but not venture into the territory of generalizations and good/bad. I've really been fortunate that with rare exceptions we've avoided condemning people for what they are or suffer from and stuck to what we've seen and heard.

FtF helped set that direction with its focus on behaviors over diagnoses. The psychologists got into the underlying disorders and diagnoses, but especially D and I have stuck with observable behaviors, which I think are fair game.

DG, your post's discussion of H's ex covers a lot of your feelings and generalities like "She likes to play MOTY".  If the concern is the loudness of her cheering, then I'd sit elsewhere just as I would any other too-loud person. She's loud and that's unpleasant. It needn't go beyond that to broader thoughts about her reasons and motives.

With D's mom, we have been able to avoid that, I think. Rare discussions of her are detailed things like, "Dad, can you call me to make sure I'm awake because I know mom won't," and "Why don't you text your mom what you'll want for dinner when you're there so that it can already be in the frig and not require a late-night shopping trip." Focusing on that sort of detail lets us avoid many negative feelings and keeps our time talking/thinking about D's mom short and free of emotion.

[DreamGirl]

DG, your post's discussion of H's ex covers a lot of your feelings and generalities like "She likes to play MOTY".  If the concern is the loudness of her cheering, then I'd sit elsewhere just as I would any other too-loud person. She's loud and that's unpleasant. It needn't go beyond that to broader thoughts about her reasons and motives.

Perhaps that's the key.

Perhaps it's not the loud cheering that has me rolling my eyes in frustration ...but the financial non-contributing of the fees.

[tog]

I think as far as events go like that described by the child of divorce, we do pretty well. Neither SO nor I try to compete with mom when we attend. We sit far away and allow her to be MOTY. We don't expect or push SS to pay more attention to us or any at all if he doesn't feel like it. He probably still feels that pressure the boy at the baseball game did, but at least in this situation, I don't think we add to that.  Do we resent her monopolizing everything? Sure, but that's to be expected, I think.

Are there other times that we feel a bit of smug superiority that she has proven herself the lesser parent? Absolutely, I think that's human nature. Certainly guilty, at least early on of wanting to "win", but now, I think we are better at focusing on what's best for the child. Like currently, when she is refusing to allow SO to see his son at all. We *could* make a sneak visit to the school and take him when she isn't there, but that would set up a tug-of-war and that's not good for him.

I have to agree with Matt. I think there is such a thing as "good" parenting and "bad" parenting, existing on a continuum, like he said. In some areas, mom does a decent or even good job at parenting. In others, she is frankly emotionally abusive. I don't think we ever cross the line into any kind of abuse, so in that regard, I'd have to say we are the "better" parents and our home would be "better" for him.

I don't think the answer to dealing with the other parent having BPD is to pretend that their parenting is fine and the problem is us thinking we are superior. It has been clearly demonstrated that children raised by people with BPD are at risk for all kinds of problems down the road.

I think it IS important not to get into a situation where we can't see ANY of our flaws or ANY of the BPD's strengths. That's hard to do when the person is making your life difficult, and probably what I struggle with the most.

[ennie]

Dreamgirl, thanks so much for this topic.  First, I want to note that we are all different people who have different capacities...

I have been thinking a lot lately on the topic of "what can we do" to make things better, and specifically, what can I do to make things better?  

Our BPD ex-wives-in-law are different people, so take this with a grain of salt.  But I think that one thing I disagree with is the perception that "no wonder..." she is having a hard time.  One of the things I have come to see clearly with my BPD ex-wife-in-law is that she has a different relationship to negative feelings than I do.  For her, feeling cast out and belittled and inadequate is like an addiction, something that gives her power over others, so she moves toward situations that create that feeling and interprets things to give her that feeling.  She seems happier and more empowered when she can point to some way she has been wounded or injured, whereas for me when I feel left out it feels bad and not powerful.  

It has become clear to me that what I do has little impact on her well being, happiness, and perceptions.  The things I have done that I think would "normally" be hard for a mom may not be hard at all, whereas very considerate things are very angering and threatening to her, as it makes her feel like she is not as considerate and also makes her have to express her needs in some way or acknowledge her needs (e.g., the first two years I wish with DH, I avoided events she would be at so that she would have space to be herself...she was terribly paranoid that people would hate her if she did not get time without having to see me.  But instead me avoiding events  being okay with her, she was angry that I thought she could not deal with it, that I was ignoring and avoiding her, that she was an awful person for making me not come to events. There are LOTS of examples like this).  

I think your ex-wife-in-law is a less aggressive person than mine, so there may be more room to not be threatening and have that perceived.  I also think that one of the features of "co-dependency" (you speak of yourself as co-dependent at times) is the exaggerated belief in your own power with another person...the idea that by being different, you can get her to be different.  I think an alternate place of compassion and power is to truly be okay with who that other person is--that my BPD ex-wife-in-law is really yelling at me, and that she is okay right now at that very moment. That it is not about me, but that I can give what I can to her out of my feeling of wanting life and me to be good for her.  That I am able to perceive if I have the desired impact, in the moment.

I think there is a fine and potentially non-existent line between the realm of wanting to take action to make life easier or more empowering for another person, and having belief in your responsibility for their emotional state.  I find myself reacting negatively to the implication that maybe your kids' mama's reactions are just "normal" and that you are being "overbearing" or seeing her as bad in a way that is hard on her.  I think part of me feeling that way is my own "co-dependence," my own expectation that if I am kind and non-threatening, the other person will see that and respond differently.  My own frustration at the slow realization that in this case, things do not work that way!

This is the trouble with internet groups, is that we really do not know quite enough to know how much our realities match up---we are telling our stories, but i cannot FEEL your story.  I cannot feel what your stepkids BPD mama FEELS like, or what your self-described co-dependency FEELS like, or how your needs and ways feel similar or different than mine.  I can learn your language, but not what it corresponds to...I can learn your word for "chair," but we do not have the opportunity to point at a chair and say our words for that thing...I hear other dads putting down there ex in the way that DH may be reporting something without judgement and with accuracy..."she is trying to turn the kids against me," when really mom is trying to deal with Dad's alcoholism and still trying to facilitate kids seeing dad---while DH is dealing with an ex who is engaged in a complex campaign to prove to the kids that dad is not a good parent, and he has that idea not from his own mind, but from literally dozens of mutual friends, including her boyfriend, approaching him with great concern about the things that she says about him and thier concern that these words are making the kids change in painful ways--while dH responds by trying to convince these people that his ex just has a hard time, but loves the kids and that he wants to maintain 50/50 custody.  I can see how these complaints sound the same, but in one case it is a justification for a guy continuing his alcoholic ways, and in another, it is a complex and prickly problem DH is genuinely exploring and attempting to address, without blame.  So I cannot really see whether it seems to me that you are talking about assuming responsibility for your kids Mama's feelings in a manner that I would not want to, or whether there are specific ways that your nurturing and feeling of superiority is creating conflict with her that could be changed.  

I am really focused right now on the "how can I make it better" question right now.  I totally see that my own defenses, fear, etc. are contributing to my experience of suffering, fear, anxiety, and feeling like I really want this person to go away.  We are in co-parenting counseling with her right now, and it is so exhausting to try to be real and open and vulnerable, and to have BPDex be totally attacking, defensive, and dishonest.  The T does not really see it yet, as she has a very similar background to BPDex and has decided that we are just like her ex and ex's new partner...BPDex is great at reading people's stories and spinning her story to match up.  So she spends time venting her anger at us, but in a very sympathetic way...pretending DH never communicates with her, pretending that I say bad things about her to the kids, that I hate her, that she has never once said bad things about us.  So there is no real opportunity for me to be open about the things I do that I do not feel great about, because she is so busy accusing me of things that are not true, and denying what she does so fiercely.  There is just no room for realness in there.  

But what I feel is that she simply speaks some other language.  And in these sessions, if I can not care that the T thinks I am a person who I am not and will never be, if I can let BPD-ex just say her thing and blame and rage and just speak to her hurt and fear, not to the "facts," if I can say "I hear you and I care about you," this can really help in that moment.  Like I often say to the kids, "You get to decide if you would rather be right, or get what you want."  Because what I want is to be less scared and to feel good feelings towards her, and I want that more than I want to be seen in a truthful way by this particular T.  There are people with whom it would be more important to me to be seen than to feel better; but not this T.  

So in this counseling, we have had some great, positive interactions.  I do not think she can often retain any of this stuff--she does not seem to remember the positive.  DH and I are really willing to go to the happy place, even when we are feeling fearful, resentful of the hard stuff, etc.  And when we go there, she does too.  It is just that it does not add up to a better relationship.  But I feel like in a cellular way, it does.  I think this has an impact, even if it is terribly deflating to have an awesome, loving connection, only to receive a call two days later with her raging because we hate her.  What happened in the meantime?

[ennie]

...more to say!  Sorry to be so lengthy, but no one has to read it!  I just find this a very interesting topic...so here is the rest of my too-long post:  

For me, I am aware (mostly) that my fear, anxiety, stress is my way of dealing with stimulus she creates and the kids create.  It is not her fault that I do this.  Part of the staying power of those feelings is the element of trauma--that she has done things that make my body scared, so I am not as flexible to change how I feel about her threatening behavior. 

I think the thing I do that is problematic for me is to buy into her "story" in a way that is not helpful, to get engaged in a crisis mentality.  BPDex often says and reacts to "normal" things in ways that elicit very heightened emotional states--like screaming on the phone when wanting to work with DH to determine if SD8's b-day should be celebrated at school on wed. or thurs.  Hearing a loud, raging, yelling voice of someone who has threatened or engaged in physical violence is scary, and it is easy to get caught up in the feeling that something intense is happening.  But nothing intense is really happening.  She just wants to have the b-day be one day, DH cannot attend on that day.  She is dealing with that by exploding, hoping the intensity of her reaction will cause DH to engage more intensely with her, and maybe also hoping that he will change his mind (although in the end, the day he wanted was better for her as well, and she still insisted on the day she thought would be hard for him).  My sense over five years is that her real want, what has gravity for her, is just the conflict.  The feeling of being listened to, being powerful.  I can relate, as sometimes I have a strong desire just to explain myself, to be heard, though without the desire to engage conflict. 

For me, I would like to create a space to live in where people get to engage in contact and closeness in a more peaceful way.  I would like to do this with her, and the others in my life.  But in practice, the fast pace of life and her quick changes make it hard to find the right timing.  We have tried being loving when she is yelling and blaming on the phone, but she just talks over us.  We have tried only DH talking to her (I have only had abut 5 or 6 phone conversations with her in 5 years--so he was always really the only regular phone contact she has) and letting her vent; she just did it more, and worked harder to get him to be upset.  She would vent for as long as you let her, with never a moment of room for any response.  Up to 4, even 6 hours (not to DH, but to his mom--he has to work, so 6 hours is not an option!) So then we stopped picking up her calls.  It seems like there is a frequency of crisis that makes it hard for us to initiate the positive connections.  It seems to go like this:  There is a crisis--her getting a DUI and lying about it, her calling CPS on the kids' grandma, her getting in a fight with a roomate in front of the kids.  We are then dealing with that--first DH with her (sometimes I am the target, so she calls me).  So we are trying to be calm, let her feel safe, tone things down, make sure everyone is okay.  Then we get the kids home after the crises, and they are angry at us and clinging to mom--why do we make things so hard on mom so she has to get in a fist-fight with her roomate (because she has to live with someone because her child support is not enough to rent her own house and she cannot work because all of her connections are other place she has lived that Daddy will not let her move to) so then we are dealing with their energy, sometimes well and sometimes adding our own drama and upset.  After a day or two, we are always able to connect with the kids, hear about the hardship. Then we need to catch up on all the homework, other stuff we missed during the crisis, which creates pressure and then we are dealing with our household stress that does not involve death threats, just grumpiness and stress.  Then we have a little sweet time with the kids when they have settled in.  Then they are gone, and we are desperately trying to catch up on our respective businesses, trying hard to put out fires.  Then we are at peace, and think "hey, let's invite BPD mom over to finally show her our current home," and that is the day she starts the next round of yellng, calling CPS, taking us back into court, making some new outrageous allegation.  So then we still feel like we want to reach out, but we do not want to be vulnerable to her attack or to be so upset that she feels like we are not truly interested in a positive, fun connection with her.  So we do not spend the kind of time connecting in a positive way that we would like.  A lot of this is the combination of the crisis reality of her life, coupled with the too-busy, disorganized nature of DH's and my lives when under stress. A more organized person or less busy person might find the time to sneak that invitation in between incidents.  

In person talking works better with her, because when she is blaming and accusing, DH or I can just take her in in a loving way, and she feels that, and is able then to relax a little.  when she is raging on the phone, she is imagining you are on the other side hating her for being that way, so she cannot really take in love or kindness or even boundaries.  And she never stops talking, so we cannot verbally express love.  But in person, it can be more real--she can take in our reactions.  But this is only sometimes.  

One thing is that she does not seem to be able to separate boundaries from badness--so any request DH speaks she takes as an attack or accusation--even if it is writing and just asking what time works for a drop-off.  

So from my perspective, what I can do is not so much to accommodate her rage, as accommodating her rage seems to have little impact on it.  

What I can do is to look at the things that cause me to feel less loving, and to try not to do them.  For me,  things I can do are are 1) not thinking obsessively about what I would say to a third party to explain why her statements are not justified; 2) trying to emotionally sidestep the drama, just to realize that it is not really REAL.  I know this sounds invalidating, but it is more like looking to the heart of the matter. I cannot do this in my head--it has to be with her.  But to feel through it--what is she really wanting?  To feel loved. To feel like she is not bad.  To know that she is not bad.  So how can I skip the stuff in between?  And give her what she REALLY wants--knowing that she thinks yelling at me or DH will get her love, and that is not true in my case.  That is not where I connect. I just have to step around that to the part of her that can be in touch with me. 3) trying to agree on clear boundaries with DH (this one is presently where I have the hardest time) so that I am not rescuing him when I have sidestepped the trainwreck and he is in it; 4) trying to make my life happy and full so that there is not as much room for the drama to grow and consume space.  

I really recognize my desire to define a problem and solve it.  The things that are problematic her have few real solutions.  She really feels that being really angry at someone is a way of connecting that she wants; I really feel a lot of fear and anxiety about someone being angry at me.  If she is willing, she can work to inhibit the intensity of her response (and she really does at certain times), and I can work on accepting that others' anger is okay, just part of it, not needing me to panic or change and so forth.  

But it can be okay for this to be a part of our relationship, too.  I may not be able to just be more open and at ease with this kind of targeted anger and blame---that is where I feel like the "who can blame her" perspective breaks down--because I think you are saying not just that her feelings are justified, but that her attribution of that feeling to your actions is justified, and that you can and should change to meet her need.  In my situation, I would love it if I was not scared or anxious or upset in response to her anger and need to express it, but the reality is that I have actively worked on those things my whole life, and my present capacity is as good as it gets for me at this time.  When I try to push past my capacity, I become depleted, irritable, and less capable.  I mean, I can stretch my capacity, but when I ignore it, the results are me being harder on dH and the kids just because I am grumpy, have a harder time sleeping, etc.  

I see it more like this: I will do anything in my power to help those around me get what they need without compromising what I need, and without expecting that I can be a different person, and I will observe to determine if I am successful.  If I am not successful, I will try a different way.  If I get tired, I will let me rest.  And I will remain totally committed to empowering others, including my DH's ex, while not compromising my anything.  

But I do not need to see her change to prove this is what I am doing.  Just like with my SD12--she recently said she hates me for the first time, but has been closer to me than ever, and the effect of her anger was for us to engage in a great series of conversations about how she wants our relationship to be--that we have total freedom to not be close, to be angry, to be close, to be happy, to be whatever.  She has been so excited and empowered by this--telling me how she feels more, communicating more when she is angry at me, but also wanting to hold my hand everywhere we go, trusting me in a whole new way, as a friend and peer as well as a trusted mentor and safe-haven.  It feels like the closeness is not from a parent-place, but a mentor or trusted equal who is more knowledegable in an area of importance to the other person.  So I could look at the words and say, "Wow, she hates me, I must be doing something wrong," or I can look at the feeling and see that she really trusts me, and is angry at me, and wants some things to change and that she trusts and is excited that she has power to influence me and has my support in her desire to change things.  

It is like I have to squint my eyes to see the real picture.  Like one of those dot pictures where you have to look at the reflection in the glass, not at the dots, until all of a sudden the dots form a  picture.  

I feel this way with BPD ex, too.  What she is saying is not the level of truth, not where I ought to get stuck.  But it is so intense and compelling; she is great at poking at your most defensive places, at saying what will most upset me.  At telling the most influential third party things that are so not true about me, but that hit a chord of an area I do not want to be seen or judged.  Like her telling the court I had sex with three people in front of the kids at our wedding, which is so far from the truth, but that I do live in a sub-culture that is very affectionate--so that her reading this stuff in to what the kids see sexualizes a hug,  that is really important to me and appropriate in such a way that my actions now have a new meaning to the kids; so that I DO now have to edit myself and friends so that the kids do not see contact improvisation dancing, which is totally non-sexual, but will result in kids reporting that they saw these people rolling around on the floor together and may cause her to call CPS...so I am afraid and angry and reactive, because I am compromising what I value out of fear of the CPS call and the exhaustion and the battle of dealing with this kind of drama.  But I could just not get stuck on that, because the truth is what I am doing is fine, she does not know what I am doing, and it could be just fine for CPS to be told that I am humping others and to have witnesses who were present (at said event, witnesses included a state Supreme Court Judge and my conservative mormon relatives, so it was not really radical or strange, just a total misunderstanding on her part) and have them be able to communicate to CPS what really happened...The point being, not getting upset or defensive might ultimately better communicate the truth of the matter to people who count, as well as being more condusive to developing a more kind and peaceful relationship with her.  

Sometimes the issue is just that we live rurally, and I do not want CPS to get called on a day that we just got back from a camping trip and have all our gear out in the yard drying and being folded up, because we might seem messy.  OR to show up on a day when it has been raining for three weeks and they see the mud in the path to our home.  A lot of my fear is fear that authorities will see what we have as inadequate, though I find it lovely and profound.  

[ennie]

Um...no, here is the last of my too-long post:


A lot of this has to do with owning the consequences of who I am.  With BPD ex, when we are in person, this is really enough for her.  If I can see that my style hurts her feelings, and own that, she might feel fine even if I am clear that I have no intention of changing.  I guess that is the part I see differently---I think it is an act of kindness to attempt to accommodate another's needs; it is not co-dependent or bad in any way.  At the same time, it is not always honest or possible, or helpful.  I am not willing to be less loving with the kids to make mom feel better, period.  Not because I think my level is "right", but because it is organically what we have come to that works for us, and there is no reason to change.  For BPDex, if I can say, "it must be painful to see your kids be close to me, when I did not go through childbirth or infancy with them,"  she can yell a little about that, and then say, "But I think it is fine, they do love you."  I just have such a hard time doing that when she says things like, "You are emotionally abusive to my children!"

So I think in general, if I can in myself own more of who I am, and accept it, and be patient when others respond intensely to me--if I can say, "Hmm...I did x, and this person is now responding by yelling at me," instead of invalidating them by telling them they are wrong, that is often sufficient, without any change on my part.  Then, over time, I can see if I can change to be easier on others.  But intimacy and love just requires being able to be aware of my impacts on others, to be able to show them that I see them, that I am not ignoring their feelings.  Intimacy and love do not require everyone doing it my way, or me doing it everyone else's way.  It just requires taking someone in, instead of pushing the problem all on them. 

So in sum, I can see how for BPDex, the fact that I am with DH means to her that I am trying to take her children away.  But it would be inappropriate for me to react by being distant to the kids--that is not the point.  The point is for me to be able to say to her, or at least to me, "I can see how hard it would be to want to be with your kids all the time, and instead to be divorced and have the kids be with a woman you barely know, and to not really know what this whole part of their lives is like. I can see how that must feel like I have taken something from you. I am sorry that your family broke up." 

The great challenge for me is that I think the key is to be able to just be okay with the crises and not see it as a crisis, without belittling it and without taking it on as my own.  Particularly when I am tired and drained, it is so easy to just get floored by the crisis, to find her calling and yelling unbearable.  To feel so powerless about being taken to court again when we are so broke.  Instead, DH and I are trying to just allow it to move past us--to invest as little energy as possible to court--we gave it our best, we are not willing to do battle.  We do not have the money, time, or emotional energy to fight.  We have never actually gone to trial, and it is fairly clear we would get more custody if we did--but at the financial and emotional cost that would take away other parts of our lives, and create endless conflict for the kids.  So DH will represent himself, with as minimal effort as possible, and a commitment to do our best to accept the outcome.  The hard thing is what she works for is to have the kids more time WHILE IN CONTACT WITH US, to be able to come to our house when she wants, etc.  To be able to have control over our home and our contact with the kids (rather than to get more custody--which, if she won, would be hard, but would be less an act of daily endurance). 

But it is hard to just be okay with it.  To not wake up at night and be terrified of the next thing, to not avoid the fun things in life because we may need the money/time/whatever to deal with the next round of attack.  I feel in my heart a path that exists, where it can be happening all around me, and I can just be okay with it.  I can do this in the midst of present danger, when she is actually saying she will kill us or trying to hurt me or DH---then I can just go all calm, and be totally loving, and it always works.  But it is the anxiety when things are looming but not present--when the calls start coming, when I hear 15 texts coming into DH's phone while at the same time the kids are casually talking about moving soon with mommy to a new state...How to just hear it and let it go?  Because I see that there might be 5 minutes to an hour a week in which she is actually directly or indirectly (through the kids) creating the challenging stimulus, and probably up to 4 hours a day that I spend reacting to it.  So I am doing 10 times the amount of creating intensity that she is, at least in my field of experience. 

This is not to undermine that some of the things BPDex does that I react to are actually just normal, understandable things.  But for me, what controls whether I make her the bad one is not the level of normal of the thing she is doing, but the level of fear and anxiety I have, which has more to do with my state than her intensity.  So it is not a matter of telling myself that the thing she does is not a big thing and is understandable--heck, if I was abused to the degree she was, I would certainly think it was appropriate to feel like people were not trustworthy and to want people who seemed scary to die or go away.  It may not BE useful to her to try to make this happen, but who am I to judge?  It does not mean I need to be dead to make her feel safe.  It just means that if I am going to connect with her, I must acknowledge that my presence feels unsafe to her.  But it is not the "normalness" or reasonableness of her actions or way of being that requires my care and understanding--it is the fact that I desire connection with her, and desire her being safer and more caring toward me.  There is no imaginary line that divides the things that are "understandable" or not to me.  Allowing space for all of who we are is important to me, more important than determining how people should be.  I see that some ways our home is is more stressful for the kids, some things she does are more stressful for the kids, some of these stresses seem to help the kids to grow in amazing ways, some seem to make them more fearful and less willing to grow.  I will never be able to determine which is which, but I can try to correct for what I see the outcome of my ways are.  But some of the really difficult things about mom I see as helping SD12 to really be able to both listen to me when I am being difficult, and to appreciate when I listen to her.  I also am so grateful mom is who she is, as I see there are ways I am different that would be hard on the kids if I was mom--I am very affectionate, but also there is a way I do not feel like I need anyone that makes me a little subtly disloyal; whereas mom can be totally unpredictable--loving one minute, then rejecting; but when she is loving, it is absolute and without reserve--there is no "too much affection."  I love that the kids get that, as my somewhat drier style I am sure would leave my own kids feeling a little less special.  Also, the kids then need my less intense style more, and so appreciate me more because it IS different than their mom.  I am grateful for my way of being, becuase it makes me be able to be fine with my SD saying she hates me--to feel it, and be sad, but to be fine with that as the state of things.  "Okay, you hate me, so how do we want to structure our relationship to accommodate that?  But I think that would feel bad coming from a mom.  I do think there is some "belittling" that is helpful--not making her out to be small or worse or not a good mom, but just not really buying into the EMERGENCY she perceives.  But, I like it when people do not buy into MY fake emergencies, too, so this is not something that I want her to experience while seeing my OWN emergencies as BIG and actually and REALLY important.

Finally, I want to say that the quality that BPD ex has that enables her to really be happy and connected in the moment is really delightful, even when this same lack of integrity, of internal coherence, makes her unable to retain or build a relationship over time in the way many people can.  There are some ways she is really, truly, radically different than most people I know.  But there are few moms who could go from jealous anger at someone in my role, to asking my advise about what SD12 would like for her B-day, because she does not always get her that well...or affectionately talking about us all doing some family thing...I love that she is willing to include me every now and again.  And it is her strange-ness, the way her mind adapted uniquely to cruelty, that allows her this strange and lovely freedom.  We do not need to all be understandable and normal to be good and beautiful and lovable.  We just need to be a little wider and bigger and more innocent to love all those interesting parts of us.

[little doggy]

Ennie, I was also struggling to process the issues raised by DG's excellent topic. I found it hard to articulate my concerns with some of the posts. I thought your posts and comments were excellent and captured much of what I was thinking. The only point of difference is that, where you would say the pwBPD looks for conflict, I would say the pwBPD looks for engagement. My xBPDw will take whatever engagement she can. if it is happy (and gushy and over the top) she will take that. If not she will try furious, bitter and viscious. And anything in between. I think they crave the enagement not necessarily the conflict (stemming from the deep rooted sense/fear of abandonment). My approach is to rely upon the wise words or Matthew Broderick from the old 80's movie War Games "they only way to win is not to play". I would change that a little to "the only way to create a new better life is not to engage".  Thanks for your wise thoughts.

[NewPhoenixRising]

Hi Dream Girl,

I know this is an old post, but I was impressed with your dissection of your own thoughts, as I usually am with your posts.  

I think your reflection on your own actions here is humbling, and I say as someone who holds 'humble' in very high regard.  

Competition, conflict between parental figures tears children's souls apart.  That's not an exaggeration.  As a child of two parents who were constantly polarized, and blaming each other for the discontent in the family, I can tell you that it destroys any foundation of confidence in a child.  

In order for there not to be competition, one side must humble themselves to the situation over which they don't have ultimate control.  You're likely right.  Your household is very likely better for the children than hers.  But you're also right to question the superiority you feel.  Because you know that the BPD in your life didn't choose it for themselves.  They were given different circumstances and life experiences than you.  So there is no superiority to establish.  There is only trying to do whats best for the child.  Which is hard to do given that we're human with our own emotions.

Im happy to see you questioning yourself on these competitive notions.  And I'm not saying that from any kind of perceived superior standpoint because I don't feel that way at all.  

We deal with baseball games and a uBPD grandmother.  Luckily the exH is in the military and only throws us into chaos when he shows up completely annannounced, after not calling his son for months on end.  And he's not a soldier in Afghanistan.  He plays an instrument for a military band and lives in Colorado, and now Korea.  Since grandma isnt a parent, its not as heavy as what you deal with.

And you're also right about her paying for some of the softball - who cares ? right ? You did the best you can for the kids.  It doesn't do you any good to be angry that she didn't contribute financially.

 In the end, it will be her loss for focusing on competition with you, and not investing in her children where she can.  If you can let that go, both you and your kids will benefit greatly.  There's no place in love for competition.  Well, except for monopoly, cards, basketball, etc.  

[Lotusflower]

No we don't have the power to "make it better" for those who have BPD but we do for ourselves and we have to for self peservation, if anything. This is a choice one has to make and although difficult to severe ties you will feel a sense of freedom and peacefulness. If you came from a home where there was high drama you may have a propensity to choose this unconsciously and keep on going back for more. We, the people who are connected somehow to BPD's need help for ourselves. I have a mother and daughter with BPD and all of my family has some sort mental illness. Mine was that I was abused and kept on going back for more. With years of therapy I finally learned to stop going back. I wish you the best. Love yourself.

[ennie]

Ennie, I was also struggling to process the issues raised by DG's excellent topic. I found it hard to articulate my concerns with some of the posts. I thought your posts and comments were excellent and captured much of what I was thinking. The only point of difference is that, where you would say the pwBPD looks for conflict, I would say the pwBPD looks for engagement. My xBPDw will take whatever engagement she can. if it is happy (and gushy and over the top) she will take that. If not she will try furious, bitter and viscious. And anything in between. I think they crave the enagement not necessarily the conflict (stemming from the deep rooted sense/fear of abandonment). My approach is to rely upon the wise words or Matthew Broderick from the old 80's movie War Games "they only way to win is not to play". I would change that a little to "the only way to create a new better life is not to engage".  Thanks for your wise thoughts.

Thanks so much for reading my very long posts.  I have really been struggling with this one, so wanted the freedom to say to much partly to explore for myself.  I was hoping someone would read them, though!  So thanks so much. 

I agree with you.  We were in the midst of conflict at that time.  I do think our BPD person does connect intimacy and conflict rather intensely--my sense is that she feels that she has no right to reach out unless she can get someone to perceive her as VERY victimized.  That if she just wants to be loved, that she is afraid will meet with rejection, so she has to make her case...which is that we abused her.  So she often uses the strategy of blame and projection to get you to feel guilty and sorry for her which then entitles her to love and compassion...but really, she just wants the connection, I agree.  And more to the point, she actually wants love. That makes it so tricky, because I really want to give her love.  But she insists that one of the rules to the game is that I agree that I am mean, trying to get her, doing bad things to the kids, or she will not accept the love.  OR really, she will accept the love, but not if my DH or I have any needs.  And for me, when someone is violent, vicious, or blaming, I experience a need to have them stop.  My need triggers shame in her, which increases her projection and desire to get me to accept that I have caused her harm, and thus, that she can be open to my love.  Oh, so complicated.  This is what creates the reality that the only way out is to disengage, because what her reaching out the best way she can does to me causes a need in me to arise (no violence, no yelling) that she cannot meet, and that need creates a stronger attempt on her part to blame me into not having needs and focusing on her need to be loved.  If I am able to stay present and not need anything, it goes well.  But as time goes on, I am more depleted, and mildly traumatized, which means that I have more needs...I am less capable of remaining loving in response to the same dynamic.  So I need to peel off at some point...