Need advice please

[Think About It...]

Frustratedmom,

First of all, I just figured out "atm" (used in one of your posts) does not mean Automated Teller Machine, but perhaps At The Moment (?).  I mean, really, I just know went Ohhhh.

As far as the two categories, home and demanding or gone with little or no contact.  I am just getting that too.   Black or White. My dd does not even want to leave the house just to get out.  Getting worse since her T has been on maternity leave.  Won't see another T in the practice.  She is stuck.  But they all are stuck in one way or the other.  Right now the rages are not (knock on wood) emerging. But she is slipping and I am watching it happen like its on a big screen TV.

So, I really don't know if my opinions are valid.  In reflection, I am not living what you guys are, whose kids are gone and you have no sense of what is going on. How can I attempt to feel the pain you live each day?   I can step back and see from a different view, but I am not in your shoes.  I can't imagine what it was like to get that info.  Impending marriage, or already.  With these kids, the sanctity of marriage may not be the driving cause, but just that they are looking for something, and now that they are "adults", they can obtain.  Like ViveK said, really in their cases it is just a piece of paper, but sometimes paper cuts. 

  I was just hoping that with her moving into a place that has a bathroom and a roof, albeit decorated with prostitutes, that she would be safer, better off.  What I was really hoping for you, was some peace and joy and that this flipping disorder would cut you a break.

Don't know if I have said this latey, but I hate this disorder.  Really I do.  I am no where close to embracing it and loving it as part of my kid, because in so many way it defines her.  Right now, i suck at being a BPD mom.  You have tremendous strenght.  And, I think you are way cool.  And I have to take some advil.

mikmik

[mikmik]

Frustratedmom,

First of all, I just figured out "atm" (used in one of your posts) does not mean Automated Teller Machine, but perhaps At The Moment (?).  I mean, really, I just know went Ohhhh.

As far as the two categories, home and demanding or gone with little or no contact.  I am just getting that too.   Black or White. My dd does not even want to leave the house just to get out.  Getting worse since her T has been on maternity leave.  Won't see another T in the practice.  She is stuck.  But they all are stuck in one way or the other.  Right now the rages are not (knock on wood) emerging. But she is slipping and I am watching it happen like its on a big screen TV.

So, I really don't know if my opinions are valid.  In reflection, I am not living what you guys are, whose kids are gone and you have no sense of what is going on. How can I attempt to feel the pain you live each day?   I can step back and see from a different view, but I am not in your shoes.  I can't imagine what it was like to get that info.  Impending marriage, or already.  With these kids, the sanctity of marriage may not be the driving cause, but just that they are looking for something, and now that they are "adults", they can obtain.  Like ViveK said, really in their cases it is just a piece of paper, but sometimes paper cuts. 

  I was just hoping that with her moving into a place that has a bathroom and a roof, albeit decorated with prostitutes, that she would be safer, better off.  What I was really hoping for you, was some peace and joy and that this flipping disorder would cut you a break.

Don't know if I have said this latey, but I hate this disorder.  Really I do.  I am no where close to embracing it and loving it as part of my kid, because in so many way it defines her.  Right now, i suck at being a BPD mom.  You have tremendous strenght.  And, I think you are way cool.  And I have to take some advil.

mikmik

[vivekananda]

Hey I just had a look at the link on 'radical acceptance' and it belongs to a site about DBT - with lots of stuff 

I figure if I want my dd to do this, I should do it (actually I thought, I'd really enjoy doing it). My goodness it's a hard ask. (not so sure about the enjoyment now  )

I read closely this page:

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/non-judgmental_stance.html

And doesn't it challenge me and doesn't it sound a really valuable 'thing'...!

I recommend an exploration of this site as a useful tool for us.

mikmik, I hate BPD too - it is like an alien inhabiting my d, it's not her. But an aspect of BPD is being extra sensitive I think (sounds like an oxymoron a pwBPD being extra sensitive  ) and that can be a positive. I am extra sensitive and I like that in me. The challenge is not to be defensive in order to 'protect' oneself. And I think your opinions are valid.

viv

[frustratedmom]

Vivk -
I want to meet your 101 year old mother! Wow! Give her a big hug for me...
I miss my mom so much, she was only 71 when she died. Now I know how young that was...

You are so right about a piece of paper, and the heartlessness of it all. Isn't that the hardest part of BPD? The abysmal lack of caring that we are supposed to find some way of VALIDATING?

She told me that way deliberately, and after texting (yes I text when I'm upset because otherwise I would blow a gasket) back and forth I have gleaned more of the story and it is a doozy:

His mom took her to DHS to apply for disability. Because my d is in a wheelchair and has a diagnosed condition that says she could have joint problems, voila, she has a disability voucher for housing. In order to function in her new housing however, she needs CAREGIVER who is committed to her and because it is a JOB, he ALSO GETS PAID!

Smell a rat yet?

Caretaker mama saw a gold mine for her useless no job no future 25 year old son, and DANG she was on the doorstep ready to get them signed up!

I asked my d what she told the caseworker about her family? That we were dead? She said "they didn't ask"...hogwash.

I said "what do you think they would say if we called them and told them you have a home and a family?" She said "what kind of mean mother are you making me lose my first REAL apartment? And BTW its MINE not his, it's under my name (isn't that romantic)

I responded...if you told them anything that is not true about us in order to pass everyone in line that is wrong, and you know it. I will call to make sure they understand you have options.

And that's when she hit me...
"I cannot live in a place where I was abused". Unreal. In her BPD brain she is replaying over and over the "broken arm" (she did to herself) the black eye (she fell off a picnic table) and the dislocated shoulders? She did to herself. Unreal unreal unreal.

My h came home from a business trip exhausted and was heartbroken and distraught. I had texted lots of things to her, including the idea that her 24/7 weed consumption is CAUSING her body to fall apart as it is a MUSCLE RELAXANT. So her "caretaker" is getting paid to keep her a cripple.

But you know what saved me last night? My son. He overheard me reading all of the texts to my h ( including...you could write a book! "how I lied to get to the front of the line" a DHS survival guide...or "caseworkers are dumber than they look" and other stories to get stuff for free)...and he was appalled.

"Mom, you know she's crazy, right?"

Out of the mouths of babes...we talked about BPD again and he is sympathetic...but he has boundaries.  Good for him. He was my glass of wine...

[mikmik]

"caseworkers are dumber than they look" and other stories to get stuff for free

I am going to have to wear Depends Undergarments before I read your posts.  Truthfully, you write so well, you tell your story in such a captivating way, and the humor you zing in there is wonderful. 

mikmik

[qcarolr]

But you know what saved me last night? My son. He overheard me reading all of the texts to my h ( including...you could write a book! "how I lied to get to the front of the line" a DHS survival guide...or "caseworkers are dumber than they look" and other stories to get stuff for free)...and he was appalled.

"Mom, you know she's crazy, right?"

Out of the mouths of babes...we talked about BPD again and he is sympathetic...but he has boundaries.  Good for him. He was my glass of wine...

BPD does = crazy. At least so much of the time when i apply my values expectations to my DD25's life. It is so so so hard to try a step into her shoes - at least the 'feeling' ones. So I go back to the DBT assumptions that I carry around in my purse (from "Parenting a Child Who Has Intense Emotions" - Harvey & Penzo, chp called 'Effective Parenting"). This helps me step back from expecting an outcome, any outcome. Just try to appreciate when DD is making anything that resembles a baby-step forward in being more independent from me. Even though the book is focused on younger kids, it still works for me with my DD25. Here is the short list:

-Your child is doing the best he can {at this particular moment in time}
-Your child needs to do better, try harder, and be more motivated to change {ie.avoid making judgements, laying blame}
-Your child wants to do things differently and make things better {the behaviors you see are often ways that your child has learned to manage his feelings. It doesn't mean that he likes behaving this way...change may be difficult...}
 Gotta go so will post and return later I hope.

qcr

[qcarolr]

Geez - crisis with dh and DD about gd6 parking 'bug farm' in our garage. I told her no spiders, esp. with egg sacks included, in house or garage. Dh said - clean up this. Gd had no idea where to start. So found shady spot out of building, out of yard where dog eats bug boxes and helped her get them there. Dh and DD wanted her to 'do it all herself'. I just wanted it taken care of. She did help me. Sometimes their expectations of her seem unrealistic for her age to me. I resent being the 'one' to fix all this. This was my interruption earlier. Now gd is asleep, DD is out for some "thursday night" event, and dh is dozing in front of the TV. Peaceful moment to finish my thougths here!

DBT assumptions for parents cont.
-Your child must learn new behaviors in all important situations {fall apart at home where feel safe and have different structure; inconsistent responses lead to parent blaming by others or belief child has control over behaviors (neurobiological component); different situations require different compentencies - need to be taught new skills to cope in different situations. THis is hard when adult pwBPD refuses therapy. Rely heavily on our modeling of better behaviors}
-Family should take things in a well-meaning way and not assume the worst {there are many reasons why someone is behaving as he is, some of which may have nothing to do with anyone else in the family - listen and check out facts; intent of a behavior (often unknown) confused with impact of behavior (experienced by others); intent not to make you angry even when this is effect}
-There is no absolute truth {truth of situation based on perspective of each person, therefore relative and changeable; when accept someone's point of view, memory, understanding different from yours may no longer feel need to prove you are right and other is wrong. ie. more nonjudgemental. Parent is the one to realize more than one truth, beyond child to have this realizatin - need to accept child has own 'truth' that feels so real to him.}

Must practice practice practice to come to believe these assumptions and this can be very challenging. Acting as though they are true can help ease intensity of situations and lead to gradual change in how you relate. I have seen this, when I can apply these, make a gradual and positive impact on all members of my family.

My ability to practice all these skills is so impacted by how I am feeling - tired, ill, frustrated or angry about other things outside family - like work, politics, friends etc. This is why doing my self-care stuff is so important. It is a real mess when mom/grandma/wife is grumpy. Dysregulates everyone - so UNFAIR. Have to practice acceptance around this as well.

Sorry this got so long. And vivekananda , thanks for the link 'non-judgemental stance' from dbtselfhelp.com  I need to explore that website some more. It is a great refresher for me.

qcr

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[frustratedmom]

MikMik - I deal with life's difficulties with humor, however sometimes inappropriately timed... I see the ironies in life as a way to find opportunities to communicate, and with most everyone except my dd, it works well?

Qcr- I feel like the rug has been pulled out from under me AND it is now used to suffocate me...I haven't spoken to her since last week when she told me that she was moving to a barn (after two weeks in a campground) then that fell through, and now she tells me she is engaged to a guy who is going to be paid to take of her.

I admit it, I did not validate her well. I was in shock. It was what it was...a lot of texts that were asking a lot of questions she did not want to answer. She must have been exhausted. It was raining sheets here while she was camping. She hasn't washed her clothes in months, and she doesn't want us to help or be around her...so I guess I shouldn't be surprised with anything.

But I am. Who wouldn't be?

The last text from her was : "Since you cannot be happy for me, you should just stay out of everything. My life does not concern you whatsoever."

Normally in a week or so this would blow over, but now that she has a "home", she doesn't need us anymore.

Time will tell...will she discard her family?

[mikmik]

qcr,

Thanks for your post.  My trouble is that this all makes perfect sense, but to remember it all, when talking to dd, it is like I need it on a little card so I can refer to it.  I guess I need to take a key word or two and hope the rest of the words fill themselves in.  I need to approach this like a university class and study study study.

frustratedmom,

How ironic that the core tenant of BPD, abandonment, is how we feel with our kids, abandoned.  Where are all the studies on the impact on us.

mikmik

[frustratedmom]

Today's assessment, gleaned from your wonderful ideas and others I have been reading, and sorry this is longer than I want it to be...stream of consciousness:

Some pwBPD's are able, even with all of the cognitive distortions they go through, to have a core belief of "my family is worth fighting for" or "I don't want to leave the people I love" or something like that...a base value.  Somewhere it sticks. Somewhere it matters...enough. They fight for it constantly, even though they are fighting the very people they love and want to be with.  It is a war, but maybe they think they might win. That's what drives them to stay.

Others with BPD only see the need to escape the person they think they are, and they try to find that alternate universe, where they do not suffer self doubt or self loathing, and they feel loved by others.

My dd18 has been trying to escape to this alternate universe since puberty. Her actions of dumping her core group of friends day one of junior high was the beginning, and our efforts to get her to "apologize" and make up was agreed to on the surface, then went down in flames at school.

This all happened the same time she discovered she was sexually attractive, starting about age 12 when even the dads at the bus stop started commenting on it...(gross)...and it gave her a power she had never had before.

Her "new" bff day one (not joking) in junior high  also taught her the "power" of cutting, piercing, bulimia, starvation, lying, and manipulation, drugs,...and drama.  She did not have other friends until this one (and her older sister) were kicked out of the school DISTRICT. (they had been asked to leave another as well...)

She was smart, but she felt stupid. She did well academically until black and white thinking took over. Her main drug was attention, and she had multitudes of that in a school with teenage boys. Her new girlfriends got tired of her because she was so needy, and I think even they had a hard time believing all of her stories of abuse.

So after she could not get the 24/7 passionate attention from girls, (she even tried some bi relationships?) she turned exclusively to guys. First the guys her age in school. Then younger guys her brother's age. Then older guys, then older men. I saw the looks on the streets, in the elevators...it was awful. I wanted to deck every one of them. (My Sarah Conner moments...) But she had the "come hither" look down like a pro...wow where did she learn that.

Eventually, even though she said she wanted to finish school, she had wandered so far outside the teenage high school cocoon that she no longer belonged there. By then her life experiences were WAY outside the norm of that environment, and she could not share her life with anyone because her scary stories put people off. She really didn't understand why. But when she tried community college, she didn't fit there either, with the 40 year old returns.

Does anyone remember "A Wrinkle in Time"? That is where she is now. She is the dad in the land with the controlling pulse, the beat to which everyone follows.  She barely sees us through the clouds, but the pulse is too strong, pervasive, and easy.

The irony? She thinks we are there, not her.

In her universe she is the smart one.  She read Plato's Republic in sophomore english for fun, and she can quote the constitution. She has an uncanny memory for movie lines and can act out many parts of a scene. The people who surround her now are in awe, she does not have to prove competency with a test or a job. A home and an income has been given to her, and she has a talking teddy bear of a guy who gets paid to make her happy. She gets free access to healthcare and her drug of choice. It's a perfect world!

What could be better for a dysfunctional, low self esteem pwBPD? He's not a pimp, she's not in Thailand working as a sex slave, and she is learning new skills...(DHS got taken big time)

So where does that leave us? In the past I thought I should be Meg, going in to rescue her. Doing whatever it took. Slappin her upside the head for her bonker thinking. Telling her how we all feel. Reminding her of family. We are here we are here we are HERE! and we love you.

She told me once that she did not like one of her T's because "she just agreed with me. I need someone to challenge me. She is too easy to fool." That is what I've been going on. I don't want to be fooled by her assertion that she does not want us.

My brother the AA counselor would tell me to wait. Wait until she hits bottom. Well she has hit what the world would consider bottom several times and not once did she call to ask for help. I think her shame is too great, and home represents shame.

My biggest worry? That she will continue to ride this wave of forced abandonment, and if we stop trying to communicate (do what she asks), she will never come to us. So, right or wrong, I will continue to text, hoping that she won't forget me.

Someday I would like to hear that my d misses her "mommy"...

[Vivgood]

Oh I adore your examples from Le Guin!

frustratedmom, your DD is still  young in terms of brain development. You have entered what I think is the hardest phase of BPD-kid-dom; the years between legal adulthood (proir to, you at least some power to force things) and 25ish (when one may reasonably assume the brain has deveolped as much as possible).

I think you are walking the fine line as well as anyone could. You are keeping the lines of communication open, sending a stream of caring and validation to her, but at the same time not facilitating self-destruction. I really empathize with your DD, and I find her choices in a sense "reasonable" in that she is able to keep and hold a teeny bit of feel-good while living with a black hole in her soul. That takes strength. A beautiful, smart, funny, imaginative girl who can't see or believe any of it, trying to keep her head above water just enough to keep breathing. There is much to admire about her (under all the weirdass crazy ).

I agree with your brother that she needs to hit bottom, but I think its a different kind of fall and a differnt kind of bottom for borderlines (as compared to addicts). Your DD isn't at the bottom by any means because she IS getting some feel-good. She can get some right now because she can't see beyond the current moment, but that won't always be true. And a young BPD won't necessarily benefit from NC (which can work well with an addict)- she benefits more at this age from validation, compassion, MC communication and the relentless belief that she is wonderful AND capable of changing herself and her life. YOU can't change an addict or a BPD. You can only believe they can change themselves and behave in a way that assumes such, even when it feels crappy and like you're not a "good mom" (and when somebody figures out what that is, let me know).


vivgood

[vivekananda]

ahh frustratedmom, life's a bummer! (an Oz expression hope it's not rude in US) 

To share some things.

My dd has according been 'subject to a lifetime of physical and emotional abuse'. This phrase was coined when at 18 a socail worker encouraged her to apply for 'independent living away from home allowance'. This then allowed her to live with her drug dealer and abusive bf. At the time, dh and I were depleted of our resources - he had just had a liver translpant and the 2 years leading up to it had been a bit more than difficult. Of course this abuse is not true and one of the most hurtful things. Her feelings in regard to this have been validated many times by sympathetic listeners who cannot believe the b*tch I am (until they meet me).

Dd31 is/was highly intelligent a skilled manipulator, who used to be able to easily persuade others as to her superior intellect. At this stage this is looking more and more like fanatical intense responses that explain why 'they' are to blame ... for whatever.

Dd didn't use sex - which when she was growing I was scared of - instead she chose drugs, which I thought wouldn't be the problem...

When I was trying to understand and before I understood BPD, I asked her what her most important value was. She said 'family'. dh and I nearly choked on our dinner with shock. After the way she has behaved and the things she has done! 

Now it is NC or LC with dh. But in her mind I know we are right in there. After all she has told me I am constantly in her head. And she always used to say, "i told you that before' when she hadn't - but she keeps a commentary running in her head all the time. Mainly with us.

So, where does this lead me? To a new set of words to explain the same sort of things.
I practice detachment (my letting go of ego) I work hard at it.
I have just started to practice validation - on normal people, so that I can do it better. It make an amazing difference to my conversations 

My s of some 75yrs is B/NPB, her life is a misery. A neighbour is probably BPD, she's in her 50s, her life is a misery. My nephew (diagnosis unknown) is barely off the streets. So, I can see possible futures for dd. But the difference is, I and dh are there for our d. Learning about BPD and DBT etc.

So, the way I am coping apart from detachment and validation, is as qcarolr and mik mik have said, I am working on making myself as best a person as I can be, modelling the behaviours that I would want for my dd.

You remember those all movies that said, 'if you love someone, let them go' - well I have no choice but to do just that. Dd is 31, not 24, but this is where I am at. Some sort of acceptance... maybe 

I always write so much, sorry...

[mikmik]

frustratedmom

I had a great post, it was insightful, smart, and had THE answer to BPD, then I deleted it by mistake and can't recall what I wrote.

However, I love that trilogy.  If you are Meg, could dd be Charles Wallace?  I still have my book in the basement from when I was in fifth grade or so.  Think I will go dig it out, worth a re-read.

As far as your Bro and AA, Porr suggests that the 12 step does not work with pwBPD.  AA is a different set of letters from BPD.  It is kind of like asking a woman to have a prostate exam to see if she has breast cancer.  It just doesn't work, cuz the parts are different and not even in the same place.

The fact that your daughter's world is presently colored by her delusion can only be at best difficult for someone in their right mind.  But how brilliant to get the system to work for her?  Maybe not respectable in the conventional sense, but I don't know if my dd18 could have figured all this out.   

mikmik

[vivekananda]

mik mik

the answer to BPD is hidden in your recesses... it'll come out when you least expect it 

viv

[frustratedmom]

Ah I love all of you...helping me see my d in a different, better light, helping me have hope that I will manage to validate the good stuff and not take out the bf (or his mom!), and that the hurt from being called "abusive" may go away someday.

Let's see...Vivgood gave me 7 years for my d to grow up and made me see her choices are "reasonable" for a person in a dark place... Vivek gave me the ideas about how to detach better and PRACTICE validation on normal people (when i "try" I always sound like like I have a stick up my ** and MikMik (vivgood said this too) thanks for the AA / addiction methods not working comment...my bro likes to ignore mental illness and just focus on the addiction...as if they came out of nowhere (!)

And once MikMik finds her deleted post, we're all set!

PS - MikMik - she is bright, but bf and his mom AND HIS GRANDMOTHER all helped in the effort...it was not on her lonesome...I would be much more supportive of that!

[frustratedmom]

And Vivek - "a bummer" is not rude in the US, as we have progressed to THAT SUCKS...at least when I'm around my 15 year old...

[vivekananda]

You don't need to sound like you have a stick up ur a*s frustated mom, check this out:

meditation techer says, 'I had a class earlier this morning too, phew'
I say, 'I suppose it gets tiring for you sometimes'
I then get a lovely little ramble about it all...

Friend is off to holiday with people in US soon. I say, 'it must feel good having people you know to stay with'. A much more challenging conversation follows that gives me lots of details that I will struggle to remember.

I'm proud of both examples  the 'victims' chatted away and with friend I asked lots of follow up validatory questions. They feel better for having spoken with me. I have a lot to learn. Lots to practice. And it's good to be doing something positive and succeeding.

Next challenge is to try it on dh. 

[qcarolr]

PS - MikMik - she is bright, but bf and his mom AND HIS GRANDMOTHER all helped in the effort...it was not on her lonesome...I would be much more supportive of that!

Maybe this was a way they could get bf to live in a more 'independent' way - with his gf and not mom and grandmother. And I do not envy this lifestlye for her. It is not much money, and not a luxury apt. and there are yet a whole lot of rules to follow to keep what she is going to get from DHS. For now, maybe, she can be in a safer place. Not following the rules, esp. in disabled/elderly housing, could lead to an eviction. One certainty with BPD is that things will not stay the same over time.

The other part I had in my mind over night, thinking of all this here, was how much grief we each must endure and process. And I just get to where I think I am getting to an 'acceptance - move on' place -- and then things twist and change again. A new loss to cope with.  So my DD25, she is also grieving her losses as well. I try to remember this too.

The other question for me, with those with high intelligence that seek relief in NC with their families -- is there a leaning toward NPD as well?

qcr

[twojaybirds]

What is NPD

[frustratedmom]

Qcr- you are so right about getting to acceptance and having the tables turn!

This is a pattern for him...before this he was shacking up with another girl who had the section 8 housing, also aquired with "help". His "job" was growing and smoking weed, now he's going to be paid to "take care" of my d, which is deceitful at best.

My h and I talked while we drove to grandma's today, and talked about the stages we reached in life and how and why we got there. We are the sorts who have professions in which we do well enough, and we (for the most part) enjoy, and while we have lots of dreams, we cannot reach all of them, and most have changed over time anyway. Basically we just see where life takes us and we go with it...or do something else!

My brother, on the other hand, knew where he wanted to get to in life and chose a profession that bought him a lifestyle, and he is now lonely and looking for stuff to do.

Segway to my d, who used to say she wanted to be a lawyer and live in France and own castles...but that was when she was around us...we are far from wealthy but exposed her to a lot.

Now that she has changed her environment, her aspirations have changed too. So getting an apartment is now in the castle catagory...she thinks she has won the lottery, and even though it is because she is "disabled", she feels a personal victory.

She cannot understand why we are not doing backflips, and why "we are not happy for her".

I have letters ready to send to DHS saying A they should not allow her to get a MMJ card because it is most likely causing her disability, and B her Bf is giving it to her!

My h won't let me send them...sigh.
He's probably right...natural consequences?

[frustratedmom]

NPD - Narcissitic Personality Disorder

I think for my d the NC is because of the opposite...complete self loathing