What are circular arguments?

[Think About It...]

Oh yes, taking all the blame for every injustice in the world. Let's just red herring this argument. He stood me up for a date? Of course I'm upset. Then, "You're right, that was wrong of me. I'm so pathetic, I'm such a f--- up, I can never do anything right, I don't know why you stick around" so suddenly we switch mid-sentence to his little pity party. I would dump loads and loads of affection on him to nurse his non-existent self esteem.

Or my absolute FAVORITE tactic of his: Just slipping out.We would argue. ... and I'd have to take a break. Like, go to the bathroom. And when I would come out... he would be gone!  He did this especially on vacation. We'd be in the hotel room, I would go into the bathroom, and he would just vanish without even telling me.  He was even sneaking doing that- not even telling me he was leaving.

[Mauser]

Oh yes, taking all the blame for every injustice in the world. Let's just red herring this argument. He stood me up for a date? Of course I'm upset. Then, "You're right, that was wrong of me. I'm so pathetic, I'm such a f--- up, I can never do anything right, I don't know why you stick around" so suddenly we switch mid-sentence to his little pity party. I would dump loads and loads of affection on him to nurse his non-existent self esteem.

Or my absolute FAVORITE tactic of his: Just slipping out.We would argue. ... and I'd have to take a break. Like, go to the bathroom. And when I would come out... he would be gone!  He did this especially on vacation. We'd be in the hotel room, I would go into the bathroom, and he would just vanish without even telling me.  He was even sneaking doing that- not even telling me he was leaving.

[1brokenwing]

EVERY argument would end up with an accusation from him that I was being deceitful, unfaithful or lying. They would include wild delusional projections of infidelity (oh and his favorite phrase was "you expect me to believe you just had a series of unfortunate events happen to you".) This in response to me trying to be super honest and go into great detail about, how for example, my phone died and I couldn't call him back! Another word for circular arguments may well be serious "mindf&cks" (he was SO good at that).  It became a conversation about trying to dig myself out of a hole he threw me in and yes, the frigid cold waters and jumping off the Titanic sounds more appealing than being in these circular arguments! God, it was icky just thinking about it! Thank God I'm out!  

[1brokenwing]

1trickpony. Excellent article.  Yup, "feelings create facts" for BPDs .  However he was FEELING is what was projected onto me so if he was feeling insecure and abandoned, of course I was being unfaithful. 

[awesomenessdefined]

Me "So what do you want me to do?".

Her "I told you I can't be here at that time".

Me "I understand that, but you didn't anwser me. What do you want me to do?'

Her "Well I can't be there at that time to decorate"

Me "We have established that, what do you want or expect me to do about it?"

Her "I told you I can't be here at that time".

Me "So what do you want me to do?".

Her "I told you I can't be here at that time".

Me "I understand that, but you didn't anwser me. What do you want me to do?'

Her "Well I can't be there at that time to decorate"

Me "We have established that, what do you want or expect me to do about it?"

Her "I told you I can't be here at that time".

Me "So what do you want me to do?".

Her "I told you I can't be here at that time".

Me "I understand that, but you didn't anwser me. What do you want me to do?'

Her "Well I can't be there at that time to decorate"

Me "We have established that, what do you want or expect me to do about it?"

Her "I told you I can't be here at that time".

Me "So what do you want me to do?".

Her "I told you I can't be here at that time".

Me "I understand that, but you didn't anwser me. What do you want me to do?'

Her "Well I can't be there at that time to decorate"

Me "We have established that, what do you want or expect me to do about it?"

Her "I told you I can't be here at that time".


Went on for about and hour before she finally left, I came and decorated since she couldn't, then she says "You should have told me you were going to come decorate" By now I was like whatever, just hush already...Welcome to OZ everybody...

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[breathelife]

Haha that reminds me:
Him: I don't have shoes and I don't want to wear flip flops there.
Me:  so what do you want to do?
Him:  well we can go to my house and get shoes or we can go buy shoes'
Me: ok so what do you want to do!
Him: we can go to my house or go get shoes.
Me: so what do you want to do.
Him: we can go to my house or go get shoes.
Me: ok got that what do you want to do.
Him: we can go to my house or go get shoes.
Me: yes ok let's decide what to do.
Him: we can go to my house or go get shoes.
Me: alright I think that's a great idea what do you want to do.
Him: we can go to my house or go get shoes.
Me: ok this is bs... I am leaving
Him: no don't leave why do too always run and why is it so easy for you to leave.  You have other plans or something.

[ItsAboutTime]

Here's the thing. I've seen examples here, including my own, of circular arguments. I know that they could easily have been defused or disarmed. The thing is, we had reached a point in our relationships that even something totally meaningless or unimportant became a tug-of-war, a competition of resolve.

We weren't going to back down and give in anymore, we'd done it so many times in the past, so we stood up to them and fought fire with fire. Unfortunately it only escalated situations. If we processed these situations with a clear adult mind, we'd never have been a willing participate in these circular discussions and found a way to resolve it in a more mature and smarter way.

[Kizmet99]

it's exhausting and jumps from one subject to another and you forget what the issue is to begin with. and it gets frustrating...and goes on and on and on and on until you want to jump off the titanic into the frigid water because that would be a relief .

Amen ! Find the titanic I'm ready to jump!

[Belka]

Me:  so what do you want to do?
Him:  well we can go to my house and get shoes or we can go buy shoes'
Me: ok so what do you want to do!
Him: we can go to my house or go get shoes.
Me: so what do you want to do.

I have a three year old little boy and I have conversations similar to this with him.   I guess the difference is that it's natural for me to stop and say, "Hey, Bubby wanna go store or house? Pick one." It's not so natural to speak that way with an adult person.

[beyondbelief]

Some of the wisest words I've read in a long time.  We all had a part in just about everything that happened.  What could we have done differently?

Here's the thing. I've seen examples here, including my own, of circular arguments. I know that they could easily have been defused or disarmed. The thing is, we had reached a point in our relationships that even something totally meaningless or unimportant became a tug-of-war, a competition of resolve.

We weren't going to back down and give in anymore, we'd done it so many times in the past, so we stood up to them and fought fire with fire. Unfortunately it only escalated situations. If we processed these situations with a clear adult mind, we'd never have been a willing participate in these circular discussions and found a way to resolve it in a more mature and smarter way.

[breathelife]

Me:  so what do you want to do?
Him:  well we can go to my house and get shoes or we can go buy shoes'
Me: ok so what do you want to do!
Him: we can go to my house or go get shoes.
Me: so what do you want to do.

I have a three year old little boy and I have conversations similar to this with him.   I guess the difference is that it's natural for me to stop and say, "Hey, Bubby wanna go store or house? Pick one." It's not so natural to speak that way with an adult person.

Lol you made my day! And a three year old would not have used a tone that was demeaning. 

[Mauser]

Some of the wisest words I've read in a long time.  We all had a part in just about everything that happened.  What could we have done differently?

Here's the thing. I've seen examples here, including my own, of circular arguments. I know that they could easily have been defused or disarmed. The thing is, we had reached a point in our relationships that even something totally meaningless or unimportant became a tug-of-war, a competition of resolve.

We weren't going to back down and give in anymore, we'd done it so many times in the past, so we stood up to them and fought fire with fire. Unfortunately it only escalated situations. If we processed these situations with a clear adult mind, we'd never have been a willing participate in these circular discussions and found a way to resolve it in a more mature and smarter way.

I've been thinking all day on how to respond to this one. My only other options would have been A) walk away midconversation. B) walk away from the r/s altogether,  C) just be entirely conflict avoidant and never bring up touchy subjects and walk on eggshells, or D) just have a screaming hissyfit on him.

I don't know what more I could have done. I don't know if there's any different method that would have brought about change.

Honestly, it hurt reading that I could have done it in a more mature or smarter way.  Yes this r/s was horribly dysfunctional, but I feel I really matured and became a much better communicator through it and because of it. I can handle an argument (with a normal person) much better now than I could 3, 5, 10 years ago.  I'm much more patient, I empathize, I stick to the subject at hand, I negotiate, try to respect wants and needs, try to be respectful in general, etc.

I thought I was doing everything correctly, and tried a million different approaches. I read books on love languages and apologies, maybe he's just not that into me, mars and venus, a stack of PTSD books... tried to fireproof my marriage, tried to resolve these issues on my own and with 2 MC's, tried to get ideas from 3 different T's, expressed my frustration to his 2 T's about how we couldn't have a normal disagreement/argument and nothing from day 1 got resolved.

I used every communication tool I had, and then borrowed tools from friends, and then went to the hardware store and bought every widget on the shelf. And when those tools didn't work, I went on Amazon and purchased every tool I could find from all corners of the world.  If there was the one solitary tool that would have worked, I had no luck in finding it. But I think I deserve an A for effort.

[breathelife]

You do deserve an A for effort! You deserve much more than that.   There was nothing you can do.  You can't reason with the crazy.  I tried and tried and the more I tried the more was used against me.  I lost myself and lost my sense of worth and there were many times when I thought to myself why am I letting him talk to me that way.  I felt sooo small.   I am so angry and hurt and mad at myself for staying and thinking that I could make the man I fell in love with appear again instead I was verbally and emotionally abused over and over again.  My fault for staying.

[Slowlybutsurely]

I agree with you, Mauser. I too tried everything in the book, and then some, and ultimately it didn't make any difference; we still couldn't have a rational conversation or dialogue. I was as smart and mature as a person could be in conversations with her for a good portion of the time I was with her -after learning the hard way that talking to her was not normal, and that I needed new skills--and as others have said, it actually seemed to make things worse. I remember one of our last conversations, where we were trying to resolve some issue, and she had so much anger. So I did all the right things, was patient, calm, asked about her feelings, etc. The more calm I was and became, the more out of control she was. It was as if she could not be calm unless drama and fighting were present, or that she needed a good fight to get something out of her system. She once said that it was impossible for her to be calm when I was--it just threw her off.
So, given this, what might I have done that was smarter and more mature than simply walking away from her and relationship, which is not something I wanted to do?  I tried everything, and so did you, and it didn't really change anything, and nothing else we could have tried would have. But leaving...  Sad indeed.

[Gottagonow]

I am not making this conversation up. I actually have it on one of my MANY recordings_

[Slowlybutsurely]

Dear me, Gottago, this is so much like what I dealt with for over a year. I hope you are now totally and completely free of this person. What hell it is, I know so so so well.
I'm really sorry you went through this. When I read stuff like this, I feel SO badly for the person posting, because I know how painful and sad it is. And then I wonder why I didn't feel more sorry for myself, and still miss her, 

This board is a godsend.

I wish you the absolute best in your healing.   

[Sailskier]

Gottago...I heard this many times. I used to wait until he got home and armor myself for war each day...somedays, I just could not win...even if I said nothing!

Once, after our b/up, having a few email exchanges about the series of events that led up to the split, which, btw was absolutely so convoluted and out of sequence in his mind for the three days that broke the camel's back...I thought I was going to lose my mind.

So...as a reply to my email he said "Check the real facts, not the reality of your mind, but the real reality that is real."  WHAT?

I think that they have mastered the art of accusing us of exactly what they feel is perceived of them.  It's a self -defense mechanism...like the overweight guy who is privately ashamed of his weight, but constantly makes fun of himself for being fat.  

[Purduegirl22]

To me circular arguements are like watching a kitten chase a red laser light around the room.  For my ex BP he would actually get a grin on his face when he had me chasing the red light all over the place.  He would  lead me around with comment here and there trying to get me derailed as I would try to logically redirect back to the original point of discussion.  It is a no win situation because nothing gets accomplished the non except confusion or anger and the BP gets to have chaos AND not have to be held accountable.  For a very logical woman who wanted to get to the bottom of things (and to have truth to find conclusion0) this made me crazy when I participated!  I am getting better at not even looking at the red light when he pulls it out with his comments and I smile and walk away even if he is telling me I am rude for never "communicating" with him.  I am hoping it also gives my son example not to play the game.