Was this an okay setting of a boundary?

[Think About It...]

I've been really bad about being a super-enabler, jumping up to do things for BF, no matter the request, not matter how tired, sick or busy I am for a very long time.  I managed to stop 'helping' in obvious venues where HE needed to do the work, like his school his taxes and while I will answer questions for his job if I can (simple things like is this web-code right), I've stopped 'helping' by coding entire pages to help, sending him quick-start print templates for projects, and so on, and after failing a few times in some things, he seems to be better (overall) at accepting some things are his to do, and not mine.

But then there are still the wacky things I feel fit more under the heading of a DEMAND instead of a favor or rational request.  Some I've been able to flat out refuse to do, seeing they are requests brought on by dysegulation instead of a rational need/want, and so when he wants something done at 1AM, I can pretty well say, No, it can wait till tomorrow or you can go do it. 

Saturday we spent a lot of time organizing stuff, and getting a new box for Goodwill ready.  I'd been going through clothes and clearing out things I knew would be good to clear out, and he actually felt like cleaning out some stuff, too, and we managed to get it done, dropped off, and run a few errands without a blow up as usually happens.  Then I ran to another store alone to pick up something for the yard, came home and as the light was fading and I didn't want it to die (grass sod), I immediately dug up a patch of yard, weeded, composted, watered and laid out 20 sq ft of sod.  It had been a long day I an went in tired, but happy so much got done.  I took a shower right away as I was filthy, and frankly exhausted and a little woozy from over-doing it.  BF took his shower to go out to a friend's, later, and then freaked out something small to hold some cigars he'd thought was in the house must be out back in one of our many, many storage bins.  We have no lighting back there, and it's been hot and damp lately.

So when he asked me if I would mind go outside and dig through how ever many bins it would take to find this item, I told him  I really didn't want to, and asked about 2 other places in the house where this thing might be.  It wasn't in either place, and he got mad about having to go outside when he was getting ready while I had nothing to do except 'sit with my thumb up my butt', and that I was being lazy for not wanting to go outside just after my shower.  Not that I was tired, sore and didn't feel I could even find this thing in the dark.  Not that it was something he could have been finding while I was digging up the yard, or even at the store prior to this.  And so even when he blew up, I don't know if it was the exhaustion, the anti-depressants I'm on, or what, but I didn't feel that weird fear or guilt I've usually felt.

I simply told him, yes, I am clean, and tired and did not want to dig in several boxes in the dark (was that validation at all?  I was agreeing with part of his assessment of my actions :P).  He was mad as I apparently had nothing better to be doing, and so to him it made sense for me to go root around in about 3 boxes, outside, across the dark, mosquito-y backyard, in the dark, for something he didn't even know for sure was out there, because I could stay home and take another shower, while HE was 'busy'.  He blew up, but I still didn't feel a need to defend myself, I felt it was a rude and selfish request at best, partly because I knew I'd never ask him to do the same for me... and he even, in his ranting, tried to tell me that "I'll never help you, then, when YOU are late for something and need ME to go find something in the storeroom."  I almost laughed, as I knew that would not happen, as I am so independent by nature I don't even feel comfortable asking him (or anyone) to bring me a glass of water - I just go get it myself.  If I want something from the storeroom, I go find it in the daytime, or do without. 

I wasn't trying to make a stand or prove a point, or even as he concluded, stop him from going to his friend's house.  I just felt it was not something I should 'have' to go do, I don't like the dark, and I don't like getting dirty when I just got clean. 

So I sat down and read a book until he left, and then, with my thumb up my butt, proceeded to my next task for the night of setting up some flower vases for safe, water-resistant transport and arranging flowers for the mothers in his family, his mom, grandmother and sister, to be ready for the next day, and finishing part of his nephew's 1st birthday gift (thumb still up my butt). 

My not engaging seemed to not escalate things, as he was fine when he got home, though moody all the next day. 

I guess I just wanted to ask, since I have a poor sense for this - was I setting a boundary for an unreasonable request?  Or was I just being selfish and stubborn?  In the past, I'd have been out there, wading through mosquito-hell, digging desperately for whatever lost grail he'd decided he couldn't live without, in an effort to avert a rage, and in a vain effort to earn gratitude.  And also, if it had been asked while the sun was out, while I was going in and out of the shed with yard-tools, again, this would have been reasonable, and I'd have looked out there with no dispute.  I just saw no reason to do it at the time it was asked, and no reason if it was important, he couldn't just go do it himself.

[isilme]

I've been really bad about being a super-enabler, jumping up to do things for BF, no matter the request, not matter how tired, sick or busy I am for a very long time.  I managed to stop 'helping' in obvious venues where HE needed to do the work, like his school his taxes and while I will answer questions for his job if I can (simple things like is this web-code right), I've stopped 'helping' by coding entire pages to help, sending him quick-start print templates for projects, and so on, and after failing a few times in some things, he seems to be better (overall) at accepting some things are his to do, and not mine.

But then there are still the wacky things I feel fit more under the heading of a DEMAND instead of a favor or rational request.  Some I've been able to flat out refuse to do, seeing they are requests brought on by dysegulation instead of a rational need/want, and so when he wants something done at 1AM, I can pretty well say, No, it can wait till tomorrow or you can go do it. 

Saturday we spent a lot of time organizing stuff, and getting a new box for Goodwill ready.  I'd been going through clothes and clearing out things I knew would be good to clear out, and he actually felt like cleaning out some stuff, too, and we managed to get it done, dropped off, and run a few errands without a blow up as usually happens.  Then I ran to another store alone to pick up something for the yard, came home and as the light was fading and I didn't want it to die (grass sod), I immediately dug up a patch of yard, weeded, composted, watered and laid out 20 sq ft of sod.  It had been a long day I an went in tired, but happy so much got done.  I took a shower right away as I was filthy, and frankly exhausted and a little woozy from over-doing it.  BF took his shower to go out to a friend's, later, and then freaked out something small to hold some cigars he'd thought was in the house must be out back in one of our many, many storage bins.  We have no lighting back there, and it's been hot and damp lately.

So when he asked me if I would mind go outside and dig through how ever many bins it would take to find this item, I told him  I really didn't want to, and asked about 2 other places in the house where this thing might be.  It wasn't in either place, and he got mad about having to go outside when he was getting ready while I had nothing to do except 'sit with my thumb up my butt', and that I was being lazy for not wanting to go outside just after my shower.  Not that I was tired, sore and didn't feel I could even find this thing in the dark.  Not that it was something he could have been finding while I was digging up the yard, or even at the store prior to this.  And so even when he blew up, I don't know if it was the exhaustion, the anti-depressants I'm on, or what, but I didn't feel that weird fear or guilt I've usually felt.

I simply told him, yes, I am clean, and tired and did not want to dig in several boxes in the dark (was that validation at all?  I was agreeing with part of his assessment of my actions :P).  He was mad as I apparently had nothing better to be doing, and so to him it made sense for me to go root around in about 3 boxes, outside, across the dark, mosquito-y backyard, in the dark, for something he didn't even know for sure was out there, because I could stay home and take another shower, while HE was 'busy'.  He blew up, but I still didn't feel a need to defend myself, I felt it was a rude and selfish request at best, partly because I knew I'd never ask him to do the same for me... and he even, in his ranting, tried to tell me that "I'll never help you, then, when YOU are late for something and need ME to go find something in the storeroom."  I almost laughed, as I knew that would not happen, as I am so independent by nature I don't even feel comfortable asking him (or anyone) to bring me a glass of water - I just go get it myself.  If I want something from the storeroom, I go find it in the daytime, or do without. 

I wasn't trying to make a stand or prove a point, or even as he concluded, stop him from going to his friend's house.  I just felt it was not something I should 'have' to go do, I don't like the dark, and I don't like getting dirty when I just got clean. 

So I sat down and read a book until he left, and then, with my thumb up my butt, proceeded to my next task for the night of setting up some flower vases for safe, water-resistant transport and arranging flowers for the mothers in his family, his mom, grandmother and sister, to be ready for the next day, and finishing part of his nephew's 1st birthday gift (thumb still up my butt). 

My not engaging seemed to not escalate things, as he was fine when he got home, though moody all the next day. 

I guess I just wanted to ask, since I have a poor sense for this - was I setting a boundary for an unreasonable request?  Or was I just being selfish and stubborn?  In the past, I'd have been out there, wading through mosquito-hell, digging desperately for whatever lost grail he'd decided he couldn't live without, in an effort to avert a rage, and in a vain effort to earn gratitude.  And also, if it had been asked while the sun was out, while I was going in and out of the shed with yard-tools, again, this would have been reasonable, and I'd have looked out there with no dispute.  I just saw no reason to do it at the time it was asked, and no reason if it was important, he couldn't just go do it himself.

[Auspicious]

Given what you've related, I see no reason why it should have been your job to look for it, if you didn't want to.

Then again, we're not there, and taking sides in a disagreement doesn't really help anybody (and can help further polarize things).

Good job not defending yourself

Sounds like his remarks, and the situation, are still eating at you, though. That might be something you can work on, if you want to.

partly because I knew I'd never ask him to do the same for me..

Well, that's you. He does "ask" those things. Comparing him and yourself, in order to find him wanting, isn't going to change his behavior, though it will likely increase your resentment.


Again, great job not defending, and in going ahead and doing what you thought best  That itself takes practice, and managing the emotional fallout takes longer and more practice, I think.

[isilme]

Ok - thanks.  I have a hard time telling people I don't want to do things - I am codependent and fighting the idea I can 'earn' love or affection and gratitude, and 'make' people like me.

Also, I was accused of being selfish a lot as a child and teenager by my BPD parents, and so that's a hard thing for me to let go of - I still feel guilty at times doing things for myself, or making my own wants and needs known.  So for me this felt like a big step.  Even as it was happening, I was surprised I didn't feel a panicky-need to just go comply, OR have a mini-melt-down of my own after he left, feeling guilty for being such a terrible GF. 

Yes, the lazy comments are among the most irksome for me.  I found it ironically funny after he left that the reason I was so tired and sore was because I was NOT lazy and had just done a lot of work, and still had more to do even after he left.  But lazy comments went along with the selfish comments at home growing up, and I guess these will be the hardest to let go of. 

[gina louise]

dear isilme,
I too have had to set a few boundaries with demanding behaviors from both my H and stepson who is only 14. I can only imagine that stepson has some similar PD as his dad (my H) they are clones in behavior. Stepson is into bullying other teens he *hates* by creating FB pages to bash them on...thinks it's hilarious, and drags others along for the fun.
Yet he can be a nice enough kid most of the time. His older sister also was well known as one of those *mean girls* in high school. WTH? not good.
I don't know how to approach that FB behavior and out him to his Dad. His Dad might find it funny too... or at the least, *harmless*, and I can see it's meant to harm.

But the sense of entitlement and the demanding of actions, chores or favors that they will not *stoop* or be bothered to do...it's outrageous.

They can be walking into a room, pass by an object, seat themselves fiddle with the remote/TV...settle in- and then ask me while I have been comfortably seated all the while-to GO get that object for them. The one they strolled right by, on the way to better things. Like it's my job to wait on them.

My H will also send me off to fetch items while we shop together in the store-just for the hell of it.
He commands the cart, and the list...and orders me around like a servant! I finally asked him AGAIN for the umpteenth time to stop that behavior. It's annoying as hell to follow him through the store, lugging items TO the cart and trying to catch up to him while he's in cruise mode.
I feel that it's purely a control issue. And I have told him it makes me feel like he doesn't want to be together with me in the store! He says now he will try to curb that behavior.
we'll see.
GL

[~C]

Standing up for yourself ALWAYS sets a boundary.  The boundary isn't exactly obvious, but it says "I won't be ordered around.  I have a choice and you have to respect that choice."

What you did was made him think of you as a PERSON instead of an object.

I think you did a great job. 

[Auspicious]

My H will also send me off to fetch items while we shop together in the store-just for the hell of it.
He commands the cart, and the list...and orders me around like a servant! I finally asked him AGAIN for the umpteenth time to stop that behavior. It's annoying as hell to follow him through the store, lugging items TO the cart and trying to catch up to him while he's in cruise mode.
I feel that it's purely a control issue. And I have told him it makes me feel like he doesn't want to be together with me in the store! He says now he will try to curb that behavior.
we'll see.

The thing is, you choose to obey (or not). It's a choice.

Instead of doing it and then resenting it ... how about just not doing it?

[momtario]

I am inclined to agree with the others, isilme. This isn't a question of whether or not his request was unreasonable (it's a matter of opinion; you think it was, I think it was, he clearly thought it wasn't, and there are other people in the world who would agree with both of you...).

The real question here should be, do you feel you did a good job of defending your values with a boundary?

I think it sounds like you handled the situation well. You kept yourself in check, you didn't allow your feelings to cloud your judgement, once you stated you wouldn't do it, you didn't and you used JADE very well, too.

If you felt that he was being unreasonable, and that doing it for him would be enabling, then you did the right thing by honouring that.

[isilme]

Thanks for the replies. 

gina louise - I've had that exact experience at the store.  Usually I'll just go grab something because it's faster and easier than getting into the fight that will occur in the store otherwise.  I am working on how to ask HIM to go grab it, as by the end of the day, my girly-work-dress-shoes are often digging into my feet and causing blisters at best, and even bleeding cuts at worst (hard for me to find shoes that can be worn more than 8 hours without this I can afford) and walking all the way back to the first aisle we went through to get something he forgot is aggravating.  I know it's my own fault for complying, but I have a hard time saying, "No, you do it," and facing the aftermath until he gets used to it.

That's why I wanted to post about this.  As I've said, when I say, "No," I feel mean and selfish.  And I worry my thoughts and reactions are way out of line.  I'm a firm believer in the idea if I won't do it for myself or another person, I should not ask another person to d it for me - It's my sort of adaption of the Golden Rule, which while not good at being very religious myself, I feel it's a good standard by which you can choose to treat others.  And when BF asks for things I KNOW will not be reciprocated, it DOES contribute to feeling like a servant, and not a partner.  It's not that I mind doing things for him - it's that I mind when it's blatantly inconsiderate, and am tired of feeling I should just put up with it, while worrying that I am wrong for my feelings.

So I wrote about this for my own sort of validation, I guess, that I am not taking the idea of a boundary to respect myself and using it as a cart blanche to be a rude, mean person, which is not the point of a boundary, IMO.  Retraining me is kinda hard, and I need a sounding board to make sure I'm not swinging my pendulum too far the other way while looking for balance between helping and enabling. 

[isilme]

Bleh, and today I forgot to take my mood regulators (will do it at lunch, and take some to work just in case for the future), and BF is in a freak out mode about not being able to buy something this minute meaning he can never, ever buy it, and has been IM-ing me about it.  I skimmed the messages to see if there was anything I could do, but felt I needed to ignore it, and frankly am pretty busy and don't have time for the nonesense.  I will try to not rise to the attempts to bait me into his frustration, too.  I hate that some days I wish I had to work through lunch and then he'd be over it by 5 (share a car and head home to save money each day). 

[Auspicious]

I know it's my own fault for complying, but I have a hard time saying, "No, you do it," and facing the aftermath until he gets used to it.

The thing is, you don't have to say "no, you do it". You can say "no, I don't want to."

You saying that you don't want to isn't saying that he has to do it. It's just you saying that you don't want to.

I know at first that seems like not a real difference. But it is!

[isilme]

I can see that, but also know he'd enjoy rage-arguing that it amounts tot he same thing if it needs to be done (correction - if HE feels it needs to be done). 

I think I just need to be more direct and less passive in communicating - it's hard as it feels rude and impolite, but he gets frustrated with my passivity when it doesn't suit his needs. 

I think I will try, "Can you please go get XX item, instead?  My feet are killing me and I can't walk back across the store."

I am at fault for not telling him how I feel about the errand-girl treatment, and often don't adequately convey just how badly my feet can hurt by the end of a long day.  I need to give him a chance to 'succeed' at being sensitive. 

[gina louise]

Thanks for all the input, and this was a good topic IMO.

I understand about the boundary being for me-to say no, thanks, I am not doing that-at the same time he's always asking those sorts of things be done by me. 
I failed to see what a pervasive pattern of behavior it was, ingrained in him.

To save the peace and be helpful I started out being compliant...not realizing that it was going to happen every day, in various ways!
I felt it wasn't going to *hurt me* to fetch him a coffee-while he sat in the car and waited for me. I felt it wasn't going to bother me while he sent me all over the grocery store to fetch items... and chase him down  with the cart. I felt it wasn't going to upset me to get up and get something that he could easily have picked up or put away himself.

My sense is that when you love someone there's no harm in *DOING* for them.
Then I realized that I expected, and usually got RECIPROCAL BEHAVIOR in return. Favors, errands, chores.
So... those small incremental chips at MY expense...with NO giving back were what made me resent the demanding behavior.
Perhaps my expectations are wrong...and in MY FOO this behavior came at me from my mother who would not get off the sofa for ANYTHING during daytime TV. My eardrum ruptured with an infection and she would not call the doctor's office, with my ear leaking blood, until her show was over. I was about 10.

My H feels like he doesn't need to DO anything other than what HE wants to do. Period.
the rest of us have to comply or vanish.  he's the Emperor!
I think H's got a lot of NPD mixed in there too. It may ALL be NPD...not sure. He will never deign to be tested or enter therapy.
GL

[sotiredtoonice]

This is a great thread. I had no idea so many people dealt with this issue with their pwBPD. This is a topic that really angers me in my own relationship. It took awhile, but I put a stop to the petty requests, "will you fix me a glass of coke?"...no more. But when it comes to housework, he has a million excuses why I should do it instead of him and I haven't quite figured out how to make him see that if he doesn't do something, theres no one else to do it but me, therefore I have to. (of course I realize my logic is a bit flawed here as well). I am getting better though, last night for example, I said, "we are having spaghetti for dinner, I need you to cook it" 

[Auspicious]

I think I just need to be more direct and less passive in communicating

...

I think I will try, "Can you please go get XX item, instead?  My feet are killing me and I can't walk back across the store."

See, that's still passive.

>Can you please go get XX item, instead?

That's about him, asking him to do something (something that he wants ... where are the boundaries between two individuals here? Asking him to do something that he wants?)

>My feet are killing me and I can't walk back across the store.

That's also about him ... trying to convince him of something, trying to get him to feel a certain way.


"No, I'd rather not."

That's about you.

[isilme]

Auspicious,

I can see the difference, but feel better trying a passive way, first.  Baby steps to help me actually say things is better than what I've been doing so far, keeping quiet.  That just leads to resentment on my part, and if I just jump into your phrasing, it won't be me.  My goal will be to feel freer to communicate when I will and won't be willing to do, in a way that won't immediately go from saying nothing to coming across as witchy.

Also, I think there is an overall difference in how men and women phrase things.  Generally, I think women just gravitate towards more passive communication, until they feel ignored or marginalized.

That's another issue here, that was mentioned above:  doing things for others is part of any r/s.  but doing it without any respect hurts, and sometimes it goes on a long time before the giver feels violated and a need to change it, which just initially confuses the givee.

[momtario]

I got into the habit of doing the same thing- always hopping up and getting whatever anyone asked for, be it my NPDh or whoever else was asking, whether they asked me or just vaguely asked the universe (I could use a glass of water...)

Then I realized that no matter what it was I was being asked to do, I was doing it wrong anyways- the water wasn't super cold, there wasn't enough mayo on the sandwich... or too much mustard on the next sandwich... and I got tired of it, so I don't do it anymore, unless I feel it does make more sense for me to do it for the person asking, and if anyone complains about how I did the favour for them, I make sure to tell them they can do it themselves next time. I will get you a glass of water, but it will probably be the way I like it... same with a sandwich, a pop, an ice cream cone, etc.

As an aside, it hadn't occurred to me until reading this thread that chasing my H around with a bag of milk (yes, I said bag of milk, something unique to Ontario, I am told) is possibly the reason I don't bring him shopping anymore- plus, I can usually save about $100 a month by going on my own.

[isilme]

plus, I can usually save about $100 a month by going on my own.

Yeah, while I don't like buying all the groceries (we've kept money in separate accounts so it means I get broke faster), going with him takes FOREVER, and depending on how he's feeling, he will impulse buy a lot of foods he anticipates will be 'tastey' but that never live up to his expectations = wasted money.  I think part of that has to do with him expecting food to provide some sort of emotional solace (don't we all, sometimes), but when it doesn't, he gets upset at it. 

So overall, it's cheaper and faster for me to go alone, but since his night time hours are done for the year, it looks like we will be going together after work most of the time.

[gina louise]

Auspicious,
Also, I think there is an overall difference in how men and women phrase things.  Generally, I think women just gravitate towards more passive communication, until they feel ignored or marginalized.

That's another issue here, that was mentioned above:  doing things for others is part of any r/s.  but doing it without any respect hurts, and sometimes it goes on a long time before the giver feels violated and a need to change it, which just initially confuses the givee.

I totally agree here...and sometimes the requests are disguised in such a way that it begins as teamwork or a joint effort and then devolves into a one sided effort.

example:
H starts cooking dinner for his son- H's 14 YO son demands something other than what everyone else is having, naturally. So H calls out to me, I need you to help me with dinner! (mind you, I have  already cooked a dinner that will feed all of us). Or my favorite; Just keep me company here...

If I say no, and point out that I am done cooking-I am a heel for being unhelpful and self centered.

If I say yes and pitch in, even if it's partial assistance such as boiling noodles, I get stuck with cooking a second meal...H will bail, scurry off to another task, vanish...disappear.

Once I walked away and said NO, this is your deal. and he proceeded to burn the food on purpose, throw it out with great flourish and take his son out for a meal.

Same thing goes for yard work. If I carry a rake to hand over to H, I will get stuck raking or doing something else while he stands there or fiddles with some non physical task on the sidelines.
Sometimes I simply say, I am done. and walk away. H seems to understand that.

He's seemingly incapable of doing anything on his own.
He needs, at the very least, an audience.
And at most, he'd prefer I do the actual physical work FOR him.
When we first lived together he wanted to buy loads of bark and plants and make me re landscape his back yard as a *project*. EGADS. I said flat out, NO way. I am NOT a day laborer, and NOT a man. I was so insulted. He claimed I owed him that instead of rent, and tried to guilt me into doing it for him. Would be different if we did it together.

All that arrogance! Get me this, Bring me that, go buy me this...it's annoying.  No please or thanks.
no common courtesy. that always amazes me. demanding and petty. bad combo
Good thread,
GL

[gina louise]

WOW-Mine impulse buys, and then throws out unopened cartons, bags and boxes of food just because it was on the pantry/fridge shelf for a few days too long-yet still perfectly UN-opened and edible.
I hate it when it's a food item I actually WANTED and shopped for and I find it in the trash.   ?

I don't get the wasting of $$$. It was good food when we bought it and carried it home.
It just turned bad in his MIND!
PS
we have separate banking as well. Nothing is joint.
I'd be broke if we had joint accounts. He'd spend all my money first, and think nothing of it.

GL

[isilme]

gina - a lot of it falls under the BPD problem of having many of the emotional coping techniques of a younger child, but being in an adult body.  You H threw a tantrum by burning the food to 'show you'.  And if he's learned he can get out of yard work by having a hissy fit, then he has one and goes about his day.  And while it's not good to look at our SOs as children, I think it helps sometimes to see they react like HURT children at times - it helps a little with the empathy for me.

I know in my case, I took the give/take aspect I'd find in any relationship, and given my background as my mother's caretaker, felt it was 'normal' to give and give and give, and receive little in return - wanting to receive is selfish, remember? 

A lot of this ties into my own codependency, where I allow BFs emotions to rule my own, and his wants/needs to OVERrule my own.  I am trying to take steps to stop what I can, and ease into being less of a doormat not just for him, but anyone... but the well-trained lap-dog in me fights back and I need a place like this for reassurance that I am NOT crazy or mean for simply not wanting to to something, if if seems unreasonable to ME. 

I had a friend about a year ago ask me something about what I wanted in a particular situation, and I almost teared up, because I felt strange admitting I may want something BF does not... like I was a bad person for wanting it, or that he'd been seen as a mean person for not giving it, and the conflict between how I felt I needed to be loyal to him but wanted the right to my own feelings, too.  It was a strange moment for me, as this girl has no problem stating what she wants (and it even makes me cringe at times, though she is not what I'd call ... witchy), and she gets it.  I hate stating my preferred toppings for a pizza sometimes, worried I will inconvenience someone. 

So my own emotional reactions are at an extreme end of the spectrum, and they happen to be opposite my BF's, which is probably how we ended up a couple in the first place.  I'm working on mine as I recognize them, but it's slow, hard work.  I feel like I'm learning the Jedi way, having to be mindful of all things, and search my feelings to make sure they are not ebing influenced by the dark side