DEARMAN for a big issue. Input please.

[Think About It...]

I've decided that I can't live with my wife's continued communications with her ex-fiance.  She knows how I feel about it, but so far has refused to cut him off (but the pace of their facebook messages is slow right now).   

I am planning to confront her after her mother recovers from a major surgery that is scheduled for this Friday.   Right now, W is a bit of a mess worrying about her mother (and her mom's helath issue is very real). 

So, if all goes as expected, sometime next week I'll ask her to cut him off for good.  I'm thinking DEARMAN, but am open to other suggesstions, especially since I don't have much room to Negotiate the final outcome. 

Here's what I have, let me know what you think:

Describe:    
I am having a very hard time with your renewed communications with X.  I ruminate on it constantly, to the point of anxiety attacks.  It colors my mood, keeps me up at night, and prevents me from doing my work. 
         
Express Feelings and Opinions:
I constantly feel anxious, irritable, depressed or angry.  I think this issue will constantly come between us and cause major problems in our marriage.  This feels very unhealthy to me, and I am concerned that it is leading to a bad end for us.   

Assert:
I want you to completely and permanently cut off contact with X.   No more facebook, no more phone calls or texts, no instant messages, no email_

[briefcase]

I've decided that I can't live with my wife's continued communications with her ex-fiance.  She knows how I feel about it, but so far has refused to cut him off (but the pace of their facebook messages is slow right now).   

I am planning to confront her after her mother recovers from a major surgery that is scheduled for this Friday.   Right now, W is a bit of a mess worrying about her mother (and her mom's helath issue is very real). 

So, if all goes as expected, sometime next week I'll ask her to cut him off for good.  I'm thinking DEARMAN, but am open to other suggesstions, especially since I don't have much room to Negotiate the final outcome. 

Here's what I have, let me know what you think:

Describe:    
I am having a very hard time with your renewed communications with X.  I ruminate on it constantly, to the point of anxiety attacks.  It colors my mood, keeps me up at night, and prevents me from doing my work. 
         
Express Feelings and Opinions:
I constantly feel anxious, irritable, depressed or angry.  I think this issue will constantly come between us and cause major problems in our marriage.  This feels very unhealthy to me, and I am concerned that it is leading to a bad end for us.   

Assert:
I want you to completely and permanently cut off contact with X.   No more facebook, no more phone calls or texts, no instant messages, no email_

[~C]

What might happen if you tell her the truth in response to the trust issue?

I think it's fair to say "You've already breached my trust, and now you're in the same situation again. "

Yes, she might get ticked...but IMHO, she's wrong for communicating with him when you so clearly are bothered by it.  She'll claim you don't respect her or trust her, but she isn't respecting you.

[briefcase]

I think that's right.  I do plan to tell her I am having trust issues, if she asks.  She will then use that to divert attention from my main point, which is I don't want her communicating with him anymore. 

Maybe I could just say that an additional benefit of her agreement will be that we can work on that issue too?  She is a master at turning the tables in these kinds of exchanges. 

She'll also bring up how I "abandoned" her after her father died four years ago (when I asked her to stop yelling at me and calling me names all the time).  Its a standard distraction too.

I am also wondering if there is some Negotiating room if it involved marriage counselling.  But, right now I don't think so.

[LostinBPDland]

I've decided that I can't live with my wife's continued communications with her ex-fiance.  She knows how I feel about it, but so far has refused to cut him off (but the pace of their facebook messages is slow right now).   

I am planning to confront her after her mother recovers from a major surgery that is scheduled for this Friday.   Right now, W is a bit of a mess worrying about her mother (and her mom's helath issue is very real). 

So, if all goes as expected, sometime next week I'll ask her to cut him off for good.  I'm thinking DEARMAN, but am open to other suggesstions, especially since I don't have much room to Negotiate the final outcome. 

Here's what I have, let me know what you think:

Describe:    
I am having a very hard time with your renewed communications with X.  I ruminate on it constantly, to the point of anxiety attacks.  It colors my mood, keeps me up at night, and prevents me from doing my work. 
         
Express Feelings and Opinions:
I constantly feel anxious, irritable, depressed or angry.  I think this issue will constantly come between us and cause major problems in our marriage.  This feels very unhealthy to me, and I am concerned that it is leading to a bad end for us.   

Assert:
I want you to completely and permanently cut off contact with X.   No more facebook, no more phone calls or texts, no instant messages, no email_

[yeeter]

+1 on being honest with her, about how you feel

In fact, if you can't be honest with your feelings, it's often because of fear.

Consider what that fear is. Consider the choice of living under that sense of fear the rest of your life, vs being honest.

Im just throwing something out there based on my own fears in my relationship, and how it hinders my ability to be honest with my wife.  It gets old not being able to share feelings with your spouse

[Steph]

 I think you have it nailed.

 I also agree that an honest answer to the trust question is the right answer

" You are right. I do have trust issues" or " No. I am sorry to say that I dont trust you at this time"

and let it go from there...no need to explain or justify this one, yet if she asks, the honest answers are the right answers, given in kindness and politeness.

Steph

[pallavirajsinghani]

My husband (we are both nons) gave me a fantastic 3 sentence rule of communication.  This includes communication regarding feelings and emotions.

This rule forced me to think and state with clarity what I want, what I expect and how the listener can actively contribute to the goal that I am stating.

So here goes the famous (insert husband's initials here) 3 sentence rule:

1)  First sentence:  State the issue (do not label it a problem).

2)  Second sentence:  State the solution

3)  Third sentence:  State what is my expectation from him.

Prior to this, I used to burst into tears and talk about my feelings and emotions and how he was uncaring and unhelpful and selfish and unloving and blah blah and blah.  He said that it always confused him and he could not even understand what the issue was.  Finally I understood that I was not communicating my feelings/emotions the right way at all.  So now, I state exactly the same issue as follows.  Now we both have the best marriage one can have.

1)  First sentence:  I am very fatigued today.

2)  How do you feel yourself, can you help me out a little?

3)  o.k.  Good, if you can help with the dishes, I'll really appreciate it.

So now, I do not expect him to read that I am fatigued, nor to guess what work I have left to do nor what my expectation from him is.

I would recommend that you follow somewhat a similar pattern.  When I used to talk about my feelings on and on and on and on...he really would get confused as to the crux of the matter.  So now I do not have any reason to throw out baseless recriminations, accusations of not listening not understanding etc. etc.

Keep your sentences brief.  Try to state a complex issue as simply and briefly as you can.  Try not to use complex, run on sentences.  So for example, do not state the cause and effect in the same sentence.

Naturally, kind, soft, non-accusatory tone is a must...as we human beings observe the body language and the tone before we understand the syntax.  Emotions respond before reason does...and this fact is even more magnified with BPD sufferers.

Hope this helps

A post on brevity has become quite long-winded!  :-)

[briefcase]

Thanks for the replies and advice.  It has been a week since they exchanged facebook messages.  He hasn't posted any public fb comments either, making me think they really haven't had any contact.  I know W is preoccupied.  Not sure about his radio silence.

I'll be truthful and direct about the trust issue, which I know will come up. 

I am on the fence somewhat as far as maybe looking for a way out.  I don't have clear thought processes on that.  Her reaction (lostinBPDland said it right in his post).  I am afraid she will just acquiese when she sees I mean business and then point to it as an example of what a controlling sob i am for years to come.  I want an agreement.  I want her to own this.  I will never get it.  So I wonder if i should go on.

Palli, i am not sure i can say this in three sentences but i will try to be to the point and concise.

[briefcase]

Well, it all came out last night, at 2:00 am.  She saw I wasn't sleeping and asked why I was so mad at her.  I followed the script.  No blow ups.  She said my feelings were valideven though she disagreed about the situation.  Said she loved me.  But refused to cut X off--said she needed to think about it. 

Sometimes life sucks.

[Steph]

Well, it all came out last night, at 2:00 am.  She saw I wasn't sleeping and asked why I was so mad at her.  I followed the script.  No blow ups.  She said my feelings were valideven though she disagreed about the situation.  Said she loved me.  But refused to cut X off--said she needed to think about it. 

Sometimes life sucks.

 Can you give more details about how and why she is refusing to cut him off?

  In a healthy relationship, something like this is a no-brainer...each partner looks to the welfare of the other. Assuming this is a healthy request, then I am wondering why she isnt willing to say no to him?

 

[~C]

Said she loved me.  But refused to cut X off--said she needed to think about it.  

  |>  |>

It seems to me that she likes having you on a string and finds some sort of sick validation in your jealousy and mistrust.

It's totally backwards, because your distrust should make her feel BAD, but instead she's "rationalizing" it as such: "He's jealous and doesn't like that I'm talking to this guy...that makes me feel WANTED!"

[briefcase]

She says she feels young and attractive because of his attention.  She said I am acting like a "bully."  And she doesn't like to be told what she can and can't do or who she can and can't talk to.

[~C]

What are you willing to do if she does not comply?

No offense, briefcase, but she's basically flipping you "the bird" here.  Is she TRYING to get out of the relationship with you?

[yeeter]

This is classic imbalance - something I experience regularly in my relationship.

Basically she is saying - I will do whatever I want.  She gives you some lip service, but at the end of the day does what she wants. 

And my guess is that in general, this approach has always worked for her in the relationship, because you have always caved and complied.  (at least this is what it was for me).  After all... I can rationalize away every little thing as 'this in and of itself isnt a big enough deal to walk away from the relationship over'.  After doing this 1000 times, it set a pattern of imbalance)

And no you are not being a bully, because you arent 'making' her do anything.  Its her choice.  You communicated how you felt about it and she gets to decide what she wants to do.  What you CAN do however, is decide for yourself what your own boundary is.  "I cant be in a relationship where I have doubts about my partners commitment"  Or something like this.

But the problem with boundaries is, you have to be willing to enforce them for yourself (which in the limit means, be willing to walk away and find a more balanced relationship).

I can tell its tearing you up that she isnt willing to participate in the relationship as equals.  But nobody ever 'gives' you power and influence.  You have to demand it for yourself (because otherwise... especially if immature emotionally, of COURSE we would expect her to get away with whatever she could)

   

[briefcase]

She'll comply because I am willing to leave if she doesn't.

[~C]

She'll comply because I am willing to leave if she doesn't.

And you've said this to her?  You know she'll probably call your bluff...and then have a meltdown when you start to follow through...

[Steph]

She'll comply because I am willing to leave if she doesn't.

 Are you sure? Dont say it until you know you WILL carry it out.

 And how about suggesting, if she still has a 13 yr old adolescent tantrum, that you see a MC and take the advice of the MC..agree to disagree, for now, but seek advice on it and let that person make the call. As k her to not do it now, but if the MC thinks its a good idea, then you will listen to them.

She KNOWS how it will go down, and prob wont want to discuss it...and may opt to stop on her own. If not, seeing a professional cannot hurt, ya?

Steph

[briefcase]

She also says she needs to focus onher mother right now, and her new class she is taking to recertify to teach.

I can't live with this.  So it really is a deal breaker.  I can suggest MC but she has long refused it.  I have not told her directly that I will leave over thos but I really do think I have been clear that I can't live with this.

This is forcing me to think about leaving in more detail than I have in a few years.

[yeeter]

She also says she needs to focus onher mother right now, and her new class she is taking to recertify to teach.

This is just distraction and changing the subject.  My wife always has some higher priority pressing matter at hand.  It means we never get around to what is important to 'me'.

This is forcing me to think about leaving in more detail than I have in a few years.

What this comment means is, that you arent serious and you arent ready.  If you were, 'think about leaving in more detail' would read more like 'I have lined up a place to stay and already consulted with a lawyer on an exit strategy'.

I had to move out and file to get her attention.  Even then, after I aborted the process some months later and moved back in, she resorted right back to status quo. 

$.02

[LostinBPDland]

She says she feels young and attractive because of his attention.  She said I am acting like a "bully."  And she doesn't like to be told what she can and can't do or who she can and can't talk to.

  Bingo!  There you have it, an admission of guilt on a platter.  That is no reason for a MARRIED woman to be friends with a former EX in any situation.  That is a recipe for disaster and anyone can see it.

I know you are a kind sweet person.  She is using that to her advantage.  There is no "working with her" on this right now.  There is really only one way to solve this and that is getting her EX out of your lives (notice I didn't just say HER life) for good.

Brief, I know this situation too well.  Some of us do on this board.  She is being completely disrespectful and disregarding your feelings all together.  The "think about it" means she is looking for a loophole.  Whether that would be a "she can talk to him to catch up every month" or "only text or chat with him occasionally".  Whatever it is, she wants some piece of him in her life. 

I know I've said it before but he is her safety net.  No matter what you do to save your marriage or improve your situation, there is her relationship with the ex taking some of the energy she needs to put into your marriage. 

When my wife did this and agreed to whatever I said to fix it, I would say she is "Complying to pacify" which is what your wife will continue to do. 

She is using her mother to distract and to divert the attention away from her and explain her aloof behavior if it comes up.  i'm sure her ex knows all about her mother's situation and is listening to her about that too.

You have a fox in the henhouse.  Time to release the hounds and get your marriage back on track before there is nothing left to save.  Or, continue to think about leaving as you have but if you are going to do it, get a solid plan A and plan B together, heck, throw in a Plan C and make sure you stick to it to fend her off from sucking you back into this craziness of justifying her EA.

Good luck.

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