Help me out of the dance

[Think About It....]

I am still struggling with communication with my uBPDexh. I only communicate via email, unless an emergency. I have gotten better at brief, factual responses or requests. We divorced in Dec. 2011, so it's still fresh.

This is where I am stuck. I feel like ex purposely finds things to "pick" at me with just for contact. He emailed telling me I needed to return a pair of sweatpants that he purchased for S7 and "allowed" him to wear to my house (I send S7 to dad's in an outfit; he returns in an outfit - even exchange in my mind (although he usually comes home in clothes too small)). He told me I also needed to return S7's bike helmet, saying that I borrowed it (I don't recall ever "borrowing" it. I do not "share" such items because ex makes it difficult to exchange or does not return them).

I ignored the email, because I felt it was strictly to pick at me. I was going to send S7 over in the sweatpants (and I will now set aside whatever he comes home in and send him in it again next time).

He sent another email about the helmet, saying he would "donate" it to me if I was in need. I told him I would keep it, which resulted in a rage from him.

I found out today, that ex had S7 put the sweatpants in his backpack on Monday to return to him.

Here's what I need help with. A couple of my friends have said, "What's the big deal. It's just stuff, give him the helmet". In my mind, it has moved beyond "stuff". It is ex's excuse to get his need for attention from me met with contact. I have had the helmet for well over a month and he has said nothing until now. I feel like I need to say no, because if I say yes, he will just keep asking for things (and there are hundred of "things" he could lay claim to that weren't detailed in property settlement). Am I interpreting this right? Is it just his attempt at getting his needs met?

Second, how do I address this with S7 who starts telling me I am being mean to daddy and I need to give the helmet back (yes, I have read Divorce Poison)? How do I keep S7 out of the middle and maintain my boundaries? I don't want to feel like I'm stuck in the position of giving in to ex's demands or else S7 suffers (that's where ex wants me). I'm having trouble seeing the middle ground.

[Free One]

I am still struggling with communication with my uBPDexh. I only communicate via email, unless an emergency. I have gotten better at brief, factual responses or requests. We divorced in Dec. 2011, so it's still fresh.

This is where I am stuck. I feel like ex purposely finds things to "pick" at me with just for contact. He emailed telling me I needed to return a pair of sweatpants that he purchased for S7 and "allowed" him to wear to my house (I send S7 to dad's in an outfit; he returns in an outfit - even exchange in my mind (although he usually comes home in clothes too small)). He told me I also needed to return S7's bike helmet, saying that I borrowed it (I don't recall ever "borrowing" it. I do not "share" such items because ex makes it difficult to exchange or does not return them).

I ignored the email, because I felt it was strictly to pick at me. I was going to send S7 over in the sweatpants (and I will now set aside whatever he comes home in and send him in it again next time).

He sent another email about the helmet, saying he would "donate" it to me if I was in need. I told him I would keep it, which resulted in a rage from him.

I found out today, that ex had S7 put the sweatpants in his backpack on Monday to return to him.

Here's what I need help with. A couple of my friends have said, "What's the big deal. It's just stuff, give him the helmet". In my mind, it has moved beyond "stuff". It is ex's excuse to get his need for attention from me met with contact. I have had the helmet for well over a month and he has said nothing until now. I feel like I need to say no, because if I say yes, he will just keep asking for things (and there are hundred of "things" he could lay claim to that weren't detailed in property settlement). Am I interpreting this right? Is it just his attempt at getting his needs met?

Second, how do I address this with S7 who starts telling me I am being mean to daddy and I need to give the helmet back (yes, I have read Divorce Poison)? How do I keep S7 out of the middle and maintain my boundaries? I don't want to feel like I'm stuck in the position of giving in to ex's demands or else S7 suffers (that's where ex wants me). I'm having trouble seeing the middle ground.

[JustSaying]

I'm confused...who bought the helmet?

[Free One]

It's one that was purchased 3-4 years ago (long before the divorce) and ended up with me.

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[Free One]

I think I've found some of the answers I am looking for in this post: http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

What does extinction burst mean and why should I care about this stuff?

Because when you try to implement boundaries and take care of yourself you will most likely see an increase in bad behavior because the BPD sufferer isn't getting the response they expect. The fact that you aren't responding as expected leaves them confused and frustrated. You've changed the rules by not giving your typical response. Because you're not giving them what they want, they will increase their bad behavior to try to get the response they are used to.  Things get worse before they get better. Why? Because someone who suffers from BPD needs to feel in control. They are used to dumping all of their negative emotions onto you. If you aren't there to take it from them, then they are left dealing with it themselves - not an easy thing for them to do.

"You've changed the rules by not giving your typical response."

My ex keeps telling me I have changed the rules...

[JustSaying]

Since there's hundreds of things not covered by the agreement, and since stuff goes back and forth, the prime concern is what to do in the future and not so much about the helmet and sweatpants.

My property settlement included the phrase (well, paraphrase) "As of this date, what's in her possession is hers, and what's in his possession is his, and there's no property left to resolve." That makes it clear. And we've let D be responsible for her clothing. She's 14 and not 7, so of course that is a big difference, but it can be a long-term goal. I buy most (all?) of D's clothes. She can wear what she wants here and at her mom's. But she also knows that if she takes stuff there and wants it while she's here, or is short of clothes, she's outta luck be/c I'm not buying more. In practice she leaves everything here except for what she needs the day or two she's there each week.

So what's a legitimate way to share clothes for a younger child? What do you think would work? What do you think he'd cooperate with? How to handle the shirts and underwear and socks and pants of the future? How to handle clothes that come to you dirty and you don't have the chance to launder them in time for the next visit?

FWIW, I don't see this thread as evidence of any disorder or burst...it's just two recently divorced parents trying to figure out how to share a child and deal with stuff that comes up but risks looking petty.

As for S7, I'd be telling him to not concern himself with what belongs to you or his dad, and that he needs to let you and his dad work that out. It's not his job to think about those things and certainly not his job to pass messages back and forth about that stuff.

[momtario]

Assuming there is only one helmet, why not treat it like it belongs to your son? I understand you aren't dealing with a reasonable person to co-parent with, but it seems the logical thing to do. My D8 certainly understands that if she forgets something she doesn't have it when she gets there. Let him bring his helmet to his Dad's if he wants to, and tell him to bring it home with him if he wants to use it at home.

He would only forget once.

That is, of course, only if you think your ex would agree to this arrangement, and not 'steal' the helmet, just to spite you.

I agree with JustSaying's assessment that you need to start thinking now about how to best share your son's items, not only now, but definitely when he is older, and how that might work for you as parents.

[Free One]

How to handle clothes that come to you dirty and you don't have the chance to launder them in time for the next visit?

FWIW, I don't see this thread as evidence of any disorder or burst...it's just two recently divorced parents trying to figure out how to share a child and deal with stuff that comes up but risks looking petty.

Thanks for the reply. He only goes overnight with dad every 2 weeks, so it's not an issue to get things laundered. I'll set aside whatever clothes he comes home in and send him back in them.

There is definitely disorder and a burst, evidenced in the language and length of ex's emails...I just paraphrased here...There was a lot of emotionally abusive language in initial request and from ex when I said I'd keep the helmet. Also, there was never any "rule" about S7's items...yet ex often tells me I change the rules (I once asked ex to return S7's ski during a drop off so we could use it the next weekend).

[Free One]

Let him bring his helmet to his Dad's if he wants to, and tell him to bring it home with him if he wants to use it at home.

I agree with JustSaying's assessment that you need to start thinking now about how to best share your son's items, not only now, but definitely when he is older, and how that might work for you as parents.

The biggest problem with S7 taking items back and forth is transitions happen through school, so anything he would want to take, he needs to take to school. Makes many items impractical.

I feel like I can't even start communications about these topics to address future problems because emails from ex most often end with him getting abusive and me not responding. I'm not strong enough yet to subject myself to that very often.

[momtario]

Not responding to abusive emails or any abusive communication, and just pretending they didn't happen is probably the best way of handling them anyways. Maybe if he takes it as you accepting the abuse, a simple "I will not respond to any emails that have disrespectful language in them" generic reply whenever he does this would be acceptable.

Have you read the communication lessons, like SET? They can really help with any attempt to be heard by a pwBPD.

[JustSaying]

The biggest problem with S7 taking items back and forth is transitions happen through school, so anything he would want to take, he needs to take to school.

Ahhhhh, that is a nuisance. We have that, too. And D has no locker at school, so she can't carry her computer and clothes all day. Fortunately I live near the school, as does her mom (but in the other direction) so whoever picks her up drives her first to the other house to get her stuff. X has been non-confrontational since the divorce, as have I, so these trips are drama-free.

[Free One]

MTO - I have read through the SET steps, but I am at a loss on how to implement them via email and with someone who I need to have very firm boundaries (I give an inch, he takes a mile) with.

I also have this underlying fear that he "needs" contact with me and I am terrified about falling back into my codependent ways (background, we were together for 17 years, since I was age 14 and I realize now I carried him emotionally for most of that time).

Hmm. I wonder how much of me being defensive is just a reaction to his abusive tone and obvious jabs at me and how much it is that it's easier for me on some level to remain painted black to him.

[Free One]

The biggest problem with S7 taking items back and forth is transitions happen through school, so anything he would want to take, he needs to take to school.

Ahhhhh, that is a nuisance. We have that, too. And D has no locker at school, so she can't carry her computer and clothes all day. Fortunately I live near the school, as does her mom (but in the other direction) so whoever picks her up drives her first to the other house to get her stuff. X has been non-confrontational since the divorce, as have I, so these trips are drama-free.

Unfortunately, exchanges have not been non-confrontational for us, so I limit face-to-face time as much as possible, especially if S7 is present and there is no third party. Also, ex kept the house we shared, and it is still painful for me to go there.

It's tricky when I need NC, but that isn't a possibility because of the parenting.

[JustSaying]

What would be an ideal solution for you? What would be a win?

[Free One]

Ideally, we could communicate on parenting topics (school, dr visits, behavior issues, ect) without the abuse and coparent as opposed to parallel parenting. That is one of my "losses" in all of this. I am learning to let go of the concept of having a co-parent. I never really did when we were together, so I don't know how reasonable it is to expect it now.

I would like to be able to check my email without getting anxious first. I have a really hard time reading the messages when they are abusive. When I left the relationship, I was at a point where I had been lied to on so many levels that I completely lost confidence in my ability to think rationally and make decisions. The effects of the crazy making are still wearing off. I do much better most of the time, but emails are a trigger.

I understand the most reasonable course of action is to get myself to a place where I can see through the abuse (I do have compassion for what he is going through) and not take it so personally. Keep my answers and emails short and factual.

I am, by nature, a sensitive person. I always have been and I don't know how to not take it personally. It's not my nature. I do have a T, go to a support group for codependency and I have read a lot of books to help myself grow.

[goinbonkers]

it's all about his control.  control of y-o-u.  if i were him and it was that important, i'd just buy another dang helmet.  they're not that expensive as i have several of the nice ones.  

thinking he will never stop asking for it is fortune telling and no one can accurately tell the future.  

have you ever read the list cognitive distortions?  fortune telling is one of them.  

[JustSaying]

I understand the most reasonable course of action is to get myself to a place where I can see through the abuse (I do have compassion for what he is going through) and not take it so personally.

I still cringe when an email from X pops into the queue. I steel myself before reading them, sometimes waiting a day till I'm in the mood to deal with it. And even then, sometimes I read through squinted eyes so that I can quickly close them to not see things I'd rather avoid.

Keep your expectations reasonable. Any abuse in the emails may always bother you...probably always should...who wants abusive emails!

The reason we emphasize short, business-like responses is that it's part of teaching people how to treat us. Responding this way may, over time, lead to better communication simply because they aren't getting a reaction. So we do it because there's a chance it'll lessen conflict/abuse over the long haul. That makes it in your self-interest.

[nona]

Here is what I did.

D9 has a suitcase. In it is a list of the seasonal things she needs in both houses.

winter was:

expensive long underwear/basecoat
winter coat/shell
gloves, hats goggles
cross country ski boots and poles, ski helmet, ice skates, guards, and towel
swimsuits and goggles
brownie shirt, banner and book
2 pr. blue snowpants (one heavy, one light)
school bag, lunch bag, organizer

summer is :

swim suits, goggles, PDF
sunscreen
sunhats
aqua shoes
raingear


I keep the written list in the suitcase to help d9 and dad pack it up to bring gear home etc.
NO confusion, no gray areas to argue about.

empowers d9.
"her needs are important"
"she is more important than the stuff"
"the stuff is taken care of"


reduces conflict opportunities with dad.

yes I still get abusive emails, I still get an aniety attack about 40 % of the time I open them .
It used to be 100%.

It has been a pain at transfer.

It would not be so smooth at school, due to the bulk, I understand.

This made d9 feel way better.

Of course Dad kept the suitcase last week.. and returned "MOST" of the winter gear.

he's BPD

OF COURSE HE IS GONNA WITHOLD SOMETHING>

THATS the loss I will strike off.

The best part is seeing the relaxation, and peace in my daughters spirit when I can let go more and more and take a little bit more responsibility for her sake.

her dad will never be equal, but at least one of us can be a little bit more mature, and it really shows up beautifully in my child when I do that!

Oh yeah...this week there are no underwear.where are they?
dads house? her best friend's house? I dunno.


a few months ago, I would have went ballistic.

This week
Hell...d9 LOVES the new underwear I just bought.

I did not even mention it to her or him and SHE IS SO HAPPY AND BALANCED AND GRATEFUL.
And I had better days too, instead of trying to figure out how to ...you know...get him to behave LOL!

[nona]

I also play silly games in my head...

Like I pretend I am receiving an email from the hamster.


And when i try to tell him something, teach him something etc...

I remember he is listening about as well as the HAMSTER!



I have the word "hamster" taped on my computer>

I know... hamster is not really a special archetype,

I just looked at the hamster one day, and noticed how many similarities there was in the hamsters responses and UBPDH responses.

it helps me detatch and not take serious emails not so seriously about something as serious as my daughter.

Without my sanity, my daughter will not have a parent.
so I must preserve my sanity any way I can

and its difficult to coparent with a hamster.

I have to give myself some credit, and lots of support!

like I get here  Hi!

[Free One]

it's all about his control.  control of y-o-u.  if i were him and it was that important, i'd just buy another dang helmet.  they're not that expensive as i have several of the nice ones.  

thinking he will never stop asking for it is fortune telling and no one can accurately tell the future.  

have you ever read the list cognitive distortions?  fortune telling is one of them.  

You are spot on. I wondered why he didn't just get another helmet instead of waiting for 6 weeks to suddenly ask for the one I have...

I read through the cognitive distortions, and I agree it can be fortune telling. However, I also feel like there is a point where a reasonable prediction can be made based on long term past behaviors. It seems it would be unreasonable for me to expect him to change his behavior now.

[Free One]

I understand the most reasonable course of action is to get myself to a place where I can see through the abuse (I do have compassion for what he is going through) and not take it so personally.

Keep your expectations reasonable. Any abuse in the emails may always bother you...probably always should...who wants abusive emails!

Good point. Maybe part of my problem in the relationship was that I got "used" to be treated poorly. Abuse isn't ok and that can be my reminder about why I was so unhappy in the relationship.

[Free One]

I also play silly games in my head...

Like I pretend I am receiving an email from the hamster.

Thanks for the tips!

The hamster thing made me laugh. That's a good one!

[Free One]

it's all about his control.  control of y-o-u.  if i were him and it was that important, i'd just buy another dang helmet.  they're not that expensive as i have several of the nice ones.  

thinking he will never stop asking for it is fortune telling and no one can accurately tell the future.  

have you ever read the list cognitive distortions?  fortune telling is one of them.  

You are spot on. I wondered why he didn't just get another helmet instead of waiting for 6 weeks to suddenly ask for the one I have...

I read through the cognitive distortions, and I agree it can be fortune telling. However, I also feel like there is a point where a reasonable prediction can be made based on long term past behaviors. It seems it would be unreasonable for me to expect him to change his behavior now.

Along these lines, I just received two more emails from him threatening to take me to court if I don't provide him with other items that he wants within 1 month. I have told him I will give them to him, as soon as I have moved and unpacked (all of my things are in storage).

[nona]

I can tell we are on the same page with these guys.

I just handed 130 pages =1 year of emails between x and myself.

photocopied, highlighted, scanned, cipoid to disk and MAILED to the L.

I thought Id never get rid of the emails...

and now I have the L support.

At this point I am refusing to respond, as Im so trashed frm a year of email bullying and abuse.

x HATES NC except for emails  and it IS all about control isnt it? ...goinbonkers

whats that about?

Paint us black when we figure out what they are up to and STILL try to control us?

even with a replacement?

I am in the same spot of cant see him much without being triggered still.

my dear old trauma counselor says Im too raw? for EMDR right now, she would not send me at this time?

dunno what thats about .

[goinbonkers]

I understand the most reasonable course of action is to get myself to a place where I can see through the abuse (I do have compassion for what he is going through) and not take it so personally.

Keep your expectations reasonable. Any abuse in the emails may always bother you...probably always should...who wants abusive emails!

Good point. Maybe part of my problem in the relationship was that I got "used" to be treated poorly. Abuse isn't ok and that can be my reminder about why I was so unhappy in the relationship.

You probably will have to one day dig into why you were tolerant of being treated poorly or else you are most likely repeat it in the future with someone else.  Could be due to low self-esteem and/or dysfunctional upbringing.  I would suggest no dating until you get that squared away.  I am in the same boat.

[Free One]

You probably will have to one day dig into why you were tolerant of being treated poorly or else you are most likely repeat it in the future with someone else.  Could be due to low self-esteem and/or dysfunctional upbringing.  I would suggest no dating until you get that squared away.  I am in the same boat.

I have been working on this - a combination of childhood and starting to date my ex when I was 14...I was a kid a didn't know it wasn't normal.

[motwgk]

Along these lines, I just received two more emails from him threatening to take me to court if I don't provide him with other items that he wants within 1 month. I have told him I will give them to him, as soon as I have moved and unpacked (all of my things are in storage).

When you do this, ask him for a complete list of everything he needs of childs that you currently have. Get it to him. Once. Just to put a stop to the continuous stream of emails asking for things. Something like, "I want to make sure you get everything you expect - please give me a complete list of everything that needs to be returned by x date and I'll make sure to get it to you by y date." Then make sure child takes everything he came with when he goes back. When my X was being picky, and child came over with something, it was put in a safe place until child was ready to go back. And child always went back in the same clothes (though clean) for a while.

I got tired of those endless emails. Sapped the strength right out of me. It was easier to be more detailed and thorough when child came over than to deal with X afterward.

[livednlearned]

Ideally, we could communicate on parenting topics (school, dr visits, behavior issues, ect) without the abuse and coparent as opposed to parallel parenting. That is one of my "losses" in all of this. I am learning to let go of the concept of having a co-parent. I never really did when we were together, so I don't know how reasonable it is to expect it now.

I would like to be able to check my email without getting anxious first. I have a really hard time reading the messages when they are abusive. When I left the relationship, I was at a point where I had been lied to on so many levels that I completely lost confidence in my ability to think rationally and make decisions. The effects of the crazy making are still wearing off. I do much better most of the time, but emails are a trigger.

I so relate to what you wrote, word for word for word. I could have written that very same sentiment. My divorce is still fairly fresh, too, and my ex N/BPD and I have a S10 together. It took me until a few months ago to really get the hang of ignoring him. I still feel dread when I see an email from him, and have several friends who share the same name -- if only they knew that I flinch just seeing their name.

But others are right when they say you don't need to respond. One practical thing that helped me was to start a document where I detail everything that happens with my son, including copy/pasted email exchanges with my ex N/BPD by timestamp. I had been archiving all of my emails, but for some reason seeing everything in one place and writing down my thoughts helped me get perspective. You think you understand what the therapist is saying, what friends are saying, what others like us are saying, but a lot of it doesn't sink in. We have to help it sink in. In my doc, I even highlight the abusive parts so that it's apparent just how much is abuse. What's interesting is that I look back on passages from months ago and realize how my definition of abuse is getting broader as my boundaries get wider.

I think it helped me recognize that N/BPDs aren't the only ones who have disordered thinking. Nons do too, maybe from being with them so long. We go looking for scraps of sane communication in piles of N/BPD abuse and are so accustomed to disordered thinking we think it's normal to settle for scraps. When people talk about putting down good boundaries, I didn't realize it was going to feel mean. But after a year of practice and a lot of experimentation, I can finally see that it isn't mean at all. It's being assertive. And it feels great. I felt I had to because I could see how lack of assertiveness was affecting my son. While they may not see us being assertive to the crazy, but they can feel it and they need to.

Hardest thing I've ever done, maybe even harder than leaving. But if it keeps going like this, we're going to make it.   

[Free One]

I got tired of those endless emails. Sapped the strength right out of me. It was easier to be more detailed and thorough when child came over than to deal with X afterward.

Good point.

[Free One]

[quote author=livednlearned link=topic=175215.msg12056144#msg12056144 date=1338179066

I think it helped me recognize that N/BPDs aren't the only ones who have disordered thinking. Nons do too, maybe from being with them so long. We go looking for scraps of sane communication in piles of N/BPD abuse and are so accustomed to disordered thinking we think it's normal to settle for scraps. When people talk about putting down good boundaries, I didn't realize it was going to feel mean. But after a year of practice and a lot of experimentation, I can finally see that it isn't mean at all. It's being assertive. And it feels great. I felt I had to because I could see how lack of assertiveness was affecting my son. While they may not see us being assertive to the crazy, but they can feel it and they need to.
   
[/quote]

You are absolutely right about the disordered thinking...I do search for bits of the sane. It does feel great to be assertive...