Punishment?

[Think About It....]

I was late getting home today, and when I got there D15 was almost crying.  She had a wound on her forehead and said that on their way home from school S13 had thrown a rock at her and hit her.

He didn't deny it but said she was being mean to him.  I can believe that, a little - she sometimes treats him badly.  But I ignored that because it's not an excuse for throwing a rock at her.

This goes back to behavior when he was younger - he would get mad and lash out.  It's how the kids were raised:  when things don't go her way, their mom lashes out, verbally or sometimes physically.  S13 did that til about two years ago, but I thought he was past it til today.

I haven't really punished the kids in quite awhile.  Maybe no TV for 24 hours but that's about it.  I really don't want to go back there, but D15 has a huge issue with S13 getting away with bad behavior.  She says both their mom and I let him get away with stuff and I think she has a point.

On Tuesday he's supposed to go on a trip to another state, for five days, with a school group - the national championship of an academic contest.  So I asked him if that was a trip for mature kids - "I guess so." - and if throwing a rock at his sister is what a mature kid would do - "No."  Tonight was their night to spend with their mom, so I dropped them off I told her about it, in front of the kids, and told her, "Let's talk about this tomorrow and decide about S13's trip."  She played along, but later I called her and told her I can't really go through with it - not letting him go on the trip.

She was planning to take both kids to see their brother Saturday - the first time she's done that - and it's a big deal for both of them and for their big brother.  She said, "We could let S13 choose between not going to see J Saturday or not going on the trip next week."  That doesn't make much sense - letting him choose - and I'm sure he'd choose to go on the trip, though he is eager to see his brother.  And it will punish his big brother, since he's eager to see S13.

But I'm kind of out of ideas.  If he stays home Saturday, that will change my plans - my first weekend day without the kids in a long time, and I had a full day planned.  I'll probably put him to work - yard work, etc. - but that means I'll need to work alongside him.  I could try to find a place we could both volunteer Saturday, but I hate to teach him that volunteering somewhere is what you do for punishment.

No TV or computer for a few days is easy but doesn't seem strong enough.

Ideas?

I hate this stuff!

[Matt]

I was late getting home today, and when I got there D15 was almost crying.  She had a wound on her forehead and said that on their way home from school S13 had thrown a rock at her and hit her.

He didn't deny it but said she was being mean to him.  I can believe that, a little - she sometimes treats him badly.  But I ignored that because it's not an excuse for throwing a rock at her.

This goes back to behavior when he was younger - he would get mad and lash out.  It's how the kids were raised:  when things don't go her way, their mom lashes out, verbally or sometimes physically.  S13 did that til about two years ago, but I thought he was past it til today.

I haven't really punished the kids in quite awhile.  Maybe no TV for 24 hours but that's about it.  I really don't want to go back there, but D15 has a huge issue with S13 getting away with bad behavior.  She says both their mom and I let him get away with stuff and I think she has a point.

On Tuesday he's supposed to go on a trip to another state, for five days, with a school group - the national championship of an academic contest.  So I asked him if that was a trip for mature kids - "I guess so." - and if throwing a rock at his sister is what a mature kid would do - "No."  Tonight was their night to spend with their mom, so I dropped them off I told her about it, in front of the kids, and told her, "Let's talk about this tomorrow and decide about S13's trip."  She played along, but later I called her and told her I can't really go through with it - not letting him go on the trip.

She was planning to take both kids to see their brother Saturday - the first time she's done that - and it's a big deal for both of them and for their big brother.  She said, "We could let S13 choose between not going to see J Saturday or not going on the trip next week."  That doesn't make much sense - letting him choose - and I'm sure he'd choose to go on the trip, though he is eager to see his brother.  And it will punish his big brother, since he's eager to see S13.

But I'm kind of out of ideas.  If he stays home Saturday, that will change my plans - my first weekend day without the kids in a long time, and I had a full day planned.  I'll probably put him to work - yard work, etc. - but that means I'll need to work alongside him.  I could try to find a place we could both volunteer Saturday, but I hate to teach him that volunteering somewhere is what you do for punishment.

No TV or computer for a few days is easy but doesn't seem strong enough.

Ideas?

I hate this stuff!

[Faded]

Seems strange throwing a little advice your way Matt as youve helped me and many others here with your sage advice.

Ill offer my advice but each parent and family setting is different i guess so maybe my way is not your way.

Id certainly want to sit both children down together and explain to D if she can see how sometimes mean words can hurt others and sometimes these others will want to react/retalitate. To S i would explain that because someone is being to mean to us we have to control ourselves and not do something that could land somebody seriouly ill in hospital and another person in a police cell. I really want to express how serious this is and not really try and gloss over because I feel bad as a parent.

Id look at punishing both relative to their demeanor.

You say your S is away on a trip of sorts. In the past even during punishment ive let my daughter continue with her sports, educational activities etc as i see taking them away would be punishing her progress.

For me punishment would be grounding and taking away computer and mobile phone.
My daughter came home an hour late last week so ive grounded her indefinately so she isnt sure when she is allowed out next. Ive explained to her that trust is built a brick at a time and anytime that trust is broken the whole wall gets pushed over and we have to start rebuilding brick by brick again.

The 1st night i took away her phone and computer but gave them back the next night. A good reason beyond taking away her liberty is also to stop reacting on her emotions and posting/texting other people about her punishment whilst she is still angry about the punishment. Does that make sense? i guess i do that to protect myself somewhat from the evils of facebook and all who comment about their personal lives on there!


As for punishment i see the rock throwing as quite serious. If he could do this to a sibling what could he do if this some random stranger throwing some abuse at him at school or in the street? Id hate to think what trouble he could get himself into and what damage he could possibly cause another.
Id certainly consider grounding him and taking away any technology for a day or 2, do this calmly though, so your not acting in anger yourself. Seeing you calmly react to puishing will keep their minds focused on the 'WHY' rather than what they have done. LEt them think about the consequences of their actions and let them consider the punishment fair.
Ask them what punishment they feel is correct for such actions? ask them how they would punish for such actions? Ask them how they expect to be punished.

Your D maybe learnt a sharp lesson already but a short time to reflect upon her words causing the injury will be enough i think.
Im not sure giving equal punishment would be right. Keeping each incident separate would be more appropiate in my eyes.
The D's word were maybe hurtful but didnt deserve a rock in the head.
What does deserve a rock in the head?
What makes us have words to tohers that are not nice?

I think we all have words to say at times and as we grow we learn to use words more apporpiately.
I dont know anyone that thows rocks at peoples head and learns anything form that!

Im not trying to scorn one but not the other but the 2 acts need punishment relative to the action.

I hope my words go some way to helping you Matt and i hope you can find the balance you need and the peace you and yours so deserve.  Hi!

[Faded]

Just to add about the children seeing another family member.

Dont make that their punishment. Thats also punishing the other family member who may have been looking forward to seeing him/her/them.

Make the punishment their own. let them own their punishment. Let the punishment be singular and let it affect only their liberties not their family life, mentality, educcation or health etc.

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[momtario]

 Hi! Matt

This does sound like a rough situation, and I can see only one problem- you have backed yourself into a corner over the trip. Having implied you were considering taking it away, before telling him you are letting him go, I would have him come up with some good, mature sounding reasons why you should still let him go.

Then make it clear he isn't just getting away with what he did, but tell him he made some good points and can go on the trip, because it's important for his whole team that he is there. Hopefully that will be one of the reasons he gives you on his own.

Then, whatever you decide to do, follow through- I would personally take away his communication rights (computer, phone, spending time with friends out of school) along with a sincere and detailed apology to his sister (have her respond in kind, because as we nons know, words DO hurt).

The apologies are mostly to make sure they have an empathic response to their sibling's feelings in the matter- that they acknowledge they have done wrong, what they have done wrong, and what the effects of their actions were. I think those of us that have been on the receiving end of treatment by someone who refuses to acknowledge these things can all understand why it's so important, and it's a very good and valuable lesson to teach our children at every opportunity.

It's also super embarrassing to have to give a sincere detailed apology with a big hug when you are 13 and 15 and that may well make them think twice next time.

One of my friends makes her D16 write out apologies like this and publish them on facebook. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can understand why it might be effective.

[nona]

HArd one Matt

Lots of great thoughts.

I think it is a good point about NOT using academics as punishment.

Something he already earned.

Id take away the technology and follow up on the anger management aspect strongly as well.

I get the dilemma of "switching" punishment plans, especially now that BPDex is involved.
I do alot of switching still at times and we all find it triggering frankly.

When I DO switch...THATS REALITY. I have matured in the middle of a decision.

I have started taking more time to make these decisions, as well. When I remember to.

 I do remember crying one whole night, myself, when my 15 year old son "lost" the most special SKI trip of of the year, for "borrowing my car without permission".

At 25, I asked him about that incident..."did I damage him, was it too harsh, etc?" he said,

It was one of the best accountability and responsibility experiences of his teenagehood, and he ended up being an easy responsible teen and young man.

It was one of the hardest things I ever did parenting teens.

[Matt]

Thanks guys.  I'm still trying to figure this out.  They're at school now and I'll talk to them this afternoon.

Also, S13's birthday is in two weeks.  I didn't have a plan for that really, but I should be getting him some present and having some small party, cake, etc.

I really want to just let it drop but I have to find a way to get his attention...

[csswift]

You could always get a rock pile that needs to be moved about 50 feet.  Maybe even move it a couples of times that day.  Maybe a little physical labor might get his attention.  Just an idea.

[mirabella]

Hi Matt,

My brother throw a rock to my head when he was 8 and I was 10. It was sore, but no major damage and I think he got a big raw and that's that. I used to annoy my brother a lot, teasing him all the time, so even though to my parents I made the big 'drama' of my horrible brother throwing the rock, deep inside I knew I had sort of 'pushed him' with my very unkind words and it really made me think twice before teasing him again. I'm not saying it's ok what he did, but I guess the important thing here is if he is genuinely sorry and aware of the damage he could have inflicted. By the way, my brother and I get along really well, inspite of having fought lots when we were growing up.

I think I probably have a diferent view on the punishment issue from most people.

It sounds to me as both your children need some hearing and validating of their opinions. My children are younger (S6 and S8) but of course, they also fight. I'm not keen on punishments particularly due to fights amongst them, because I think that it tends to increase the competition and resentment between them. When one of my children hurts the other, he must be feeling pretty bad to do it and he does feel bad for doing it too. So, he does have the understanding that is wrong and that he shouldn't do it, right? and that is what the whole purpose of punishment is about, isn't it?

I have punished my children, but then we all end up feeling bad and sometimes, they feel even more resentful towards their sibling, because they may held them responsable for them ending up being punished. I 'm not entirely sure that punishment works...

I agree with other comments that it's important to be consistent and not keep changing your mind, so if you said "no trip" then maybe you have too. On the other hand, how does it sound trying having a chat with him along the lines:
"You must have been feeling pretty bad to throw a rock at your sister" and give him space and time to say anything he wants, how she is mean and this and that. He needs to feel understood, but then you add "you know that she doesn't mean it quite like that,..." and " it's very dangerous to throw rocks at her, it's not a kind way to act,...". You could also share with him some of your experiences of being a teeneger, being annoyed at or by.

Your D may benefit too from some of your exclusive time (specially if she doesn't get a good role model from her mum). Why does she feels that you are softer on his brother? How would she like things to be? You are sorry she was hurt...You don't need to do what she says, because you have the authority, but we all love it when we feel really listened to.

[Gagrl]

I read through the suggestions, then got to the previous idea about something physical, and that's where I had landed also -- something about the proper use of physical force/physicality, and appropriate to the offense.

I agree that anything academic should not be used for punishment purposes.  School social outings, however, are fair game.

Not allowing your son to see his older brother would be punishment for the older SS, so can't say that's valid either.

[momtario]

Matt- another thought that has crossed my mind since reading this...

How often would you say your D15 gets mean with her brother? A normal amount? Does she cross lines? Would your son agree with your assessment?

Obviously nothing she said could excuse his throwing a rock at her, but there could be more going on than you realize. I would not only punish the behaviour, but try to find out where it came from, because if he identifies what was going on inside his head when it happened, you may be able to help him figure out a better way of coping with it.

It may have been as simple as him feeling for a moment that she gets away with being mean to him a little too often, in which case ignoring her behaviour because his was worse would only serve to compound the issue in the long term.

[Matt]

Matt- another thought that has crossed my mind since reading this...

How often would you say your D15 gets mean with her brother? A normal amount? Does she cross lines? Would your son agree with your assessment?

Obviously nothing she said could excuse his throwing a rock at her, but there could be more going on than you realize. I would not only punish the behaviour, but try to find out where it came from, because if he identifies what was going on inside his head when it happened, you may be able to help him figure out a better way of coping with it.

It may have been as simple as him feeling for a moment that she gets away with being mean to him a little too often, in which case ignoring her behaviour because his was worse would only serve to compound the issue in the long term.

Here's what I think happens...

D15 has the normal stresses of a 15-year-old girl.  She gets all As, and takes that seriously.  She has friends, but sometimes they're mean to her or don't include her.  Her complexion is a big problem (just now being addressed with medication so it should get better.)  Her track coach is a bully who I am trying to get fired.  And her mom can be verbally abusive.

Her mom's example I think is a key part of this - Mom knows how to push people's buttons very skilfully - how to say something that will hurt bad.  When Mom is in a bad mood, she relives her stress by being cruel to whoever is around.  That's the role model D15 has had her whole life, and many of her behaviors are like her mom's.  Over the years I've tried to point out bad behaviors, like verbal abuse when you're in a bad mood, and it's worked pretty well - D15 is a great kid.  But she will still lash out verbally, often at S13.

Usually I pick them up after school, but I got a house close enough to the school so they can walk if I can't get off work.  Yesterday was one of those days.  I imagine D15 had a bad day, and then a long walk, uphill, with her little brother.  And she let loose on him in some way, verbally, and hurt him.

For S13, he's also influenced by his mom's example.  From an early age, he threw huge fits like her.  Since we separated, I've worked on that with him, and both kids were in counseling for three years, and that helped.  The counselor gave him tools for dealing with his feelings without lashing out physically.  I don't think he's done something like this for a year or two - it's like deja vu now.

When I got home and D15 told me what happened, I left the issue of her mouth completely alone, because I wanted to focus on S13's behavior, and I didn't want to muddy the waters.  My main message was, "I don't care what somebody says, you don't throw a rock at her.  Period."  Their Mom - when she was violent with me or did some extreme, aggressive behavior toward me or SS - would always try to shift the discussion to what "caused" her to do it, and I think it's super-important to not buy into that - nothing "caused" him to throw the rock - he did it, it was his choice to do it, and he needs to make different choices, no matter what somebody says to him.

But yes, I think it's almost certain that D15's behavior is a problem too.

And I can't always supervise.  They need to be around each other sometimes without supervision, and they are both old enough and able to do that.  It's choices they are making that need to change.  They even had the option to go home by different routes or at different speeds and not together, but chose to walk together and fight.  They're getting something out of the fight...

[Matt]

How often would you say your D15 gets mean with her brother? A normal amount? Does she cross lines? Would your son agree with your assessment?

So I guess I'm saying, I'm not sure whether she is mean with him a normal amount or more, but she is mean with him at times, and that is a problem.  I want to deal with it as a separate problem - a problem in her behavior - not as a part of the problem of him throwing rocks, because I don't want to buy into the idea that her behavior "causes" his.

When we first got married, SS34 was 18.  He and his mom had huge fights - always verbal.  They said horrible, mean, cruel things to each other, in front of SD who was 6 then.  When I talked to SS about it, he said I should talk with his mom - it's her fault.  Of course when I talked with her, she said the same thing.  They both used the other's behavior to justify their own, and things never got better, til I kicked SS18 out of the house.  He moved in with a drug buddy, and spent the next ten years doing and selling drugs.  Now he's in prison.

Not that the situations are the same - S13 and D15 are both very good students and great kids.  But the idea that if someone else does something wrong, that justifies me doing something wrong, is a huge part of the dynamic here, and I have to face that idea down and put a stake through its heart...

[Matt]

I read through the suggestions, then got to the previous idea about something physical, and that's where I had landed also -- something about the proper use of physical force/physicality, and appropriate to the offense.

I agree that anything academic should not be used for punishment purposes.  School social outings, however, are fair game.

Not allowing your son to see his older brother would be punishment for the older SS, so can't say that's valid either.

There's some yard work that needs done.  I do agree that physical work is a good way to go.  I'll have to do it with him, at least part of the time, or it won't get done, and I'm not sure there's enough physical work needing done.  And of course that will take up my Saturday too...

It was their mom's idea to let him choose between giving up the big trip next week, or the one-day trip to see SS this Saturday.  I never would have thought of that, because it's really for SS's benefit - he hasn't seen the kids since January - he's in prison, and visits are absolutely the best thing in his life.  Seeing D15 and his mom will be great for him but taking away the chance to see S13 would not have been my idea.  But I do plan to take both kids to see him in a few weeks...

[Matt]

Thanks for all the thoughts, guys!

[JustSaying]

I like punishments that fit the crime...that have some sort of connection to the original event.

Agree that each trip should still happen, because that punishment would send mixed signals. I once thought to punish D by keeping her from her extracurricular sport, but the coach asked that I not do that be/c that activity had to be seen as a commitment ala school. So I found something that reached her more directly.

For this situation, I'd go in one or two ways. One way is to make him write a report/essay on a topic like anger management. He can research anger management programs, curricula, and therapies. He can write a multi-page paper focused on alternative responses. If he objects or doesn't take it seriously, he can know that visiting a T to discuss the same topic could happen in addition...pick your poison. As a bonus to you, he should share the final paper with his mother. 

A followup to that is a proper apology letter to his sister covering why he's sorry he acted as he did and mentioning how he might act in the future.

This all makes it a teachable moment--he'll learn something about managing his anger.

If D had required a visit to the doctor, his paying for the office visit would also have been appropriate. Action...consequence.

[Matt]

I like punishments that fit the crime...that have some sort of connection to the original event.

Agree that each trip should still happen, because that punishment would send mixed signals. I once thought to punish D by keeping her from her extracurricular sport, but the coach asked that I not do that be/c that activity had to be seen as a commitment ala school. So I found something that reached her more directly.

For this situation, I'd go in one or two ways. One way is to make him write a report/essay on a topic like anger management. He can research anger management programs, curricula, and therapies. He can write a multi-page paper focused on alternative responses. If he objects or doesn't take it seriously, he can know that visiting a T to discuss the same topic could happen in addition...pick your poison. As a bonus to you, he should share the final paper with his mother. 

A followup to that is a proper apology letter to his sister covering why he's sorry he acted as he did and mentioning how he might act in the future.

This all makes it a teachable moment--he'll learn something about managing his anger.

If D had required a visit to the doctor, his paying for the office visit would also have been appropriate. Action...consequence.

Hm...interesting.

I required essays from him a few times, several years ago, and the results were entertaining but I'm not sure how effective.  He literally wrote an essay about exactly what had happened, and why he did what he did - like an 8-year-old lawyer arguing his case.  (He talks about maybe being a lawyer...)  Basically, in the past, his view was, "I did it.  I acknowledged I did it.  It was justified by what the other party did.  Now tell me the punishment and I'll do the punishment."

In one or two cases, I think he was partly right - the other child was the aggressor and he didn't do anything very wrong.  In other cases, like this one, his behavior can't be justified by anything.

Maybe I'll try the essay thing.  I don't think he will try to defend what he did this time, and he has learned some anger management methods in the past - from his counselor, for one - and as you say, he can research it online and find tons of good ideas.

So maybe, if he doesn't go on Saturday - or if he goes, we could do this Sunday - half a day of hard work in the yard, and then a shower, and then the essay.  "The Anger Management Tools I Will Use To Make Sure I Don't Act Out Again".

And yes, the apology is a big issue too.  Even after D15 told me what happened, and I asked S13 if that's true, and he said yes, he never apologized to her til she demanded it, and then it was brief and not heart-felt.  I'm sure he is sorry - he is a good kid and loves her very much - but verbalizing it isn't easy for him and that's part of taking responsibility for it.

Their mom only picks up her e-mails at work...

From:  Matt
To:  Ex
Re.:  The rock

Let's both talk with D15 about watching her mouth.  Nothing she said justified what S13 did, but I'm sure she provoked him and that needs to change.

For S13, I hate to make him miss the trip next week - a unique experience, and not fair to the other kids.  And I also hate to punish SS34 by not letting S13 visit him.

How about this:  Today after school, homework.  He should take homework with him tomorrow and get it all done in the car.  On Sunday, I'll put him to work - yard work.  And I'll require him to write an essay on specific tools he will use to make sure this doesn't happen again.  He got some from Counselor - he could even e-mail her to get reminders, and he can research anger management online.  5 pages, typed, no errors, with a clear plan for what he will do to make sure he doesn't act out like this again.

Til the yard work is finished (probably about 3 hours of pretty hard work) and the essay is done, no TV, no computer, no cell phone, no iPod.

My thinking is, from now through Sunday needs to be focused on homework, yard work, and the essay - nothing else (except seeing J).  Then Monday - if he has done what he needs to do - we can all move forward.

I'll see him after school today.  Please let me know if this is OK or if you have a different idea.

[momtario]

I think that is a very good plan, Matt.

I am starting to see similar dynamics with my own children (8,5,3) and I am trying hard to come up with ways to nip this in the bud, and I really like the essay idea- my kids are too young for that, but we generally cover the same things in the discussion we have before they are allowed leaving the time out step.

[JustSaying]

4th and 5th paras are repetitive. Drop them and the email reads the same while being shorter. Maybe add, "I'll make sure he shares the essay with you, too, so that you can confirm he's learned from this." [There's something deliciously evil about having him write an essay from which SHE could learn something...even though she wouldn't acknowledge it.]

[Matt]

4th and 5th paras are repetitive. Drop them and the email reads the same while being shorter. Maybe add, "I'll make sure he shares the essay with you, too, so that you can confirm he's learned from this." [There's something deliciously evil about having him write an essay from which SHE could learn something...even though she wouldn't acknowledge it.]

Yeah, I find it helps with their mom if I say things more than once sometimes.  Otherwise, "Oh, I didn't read that part..." - dumb like a fox.  (She's very intelligent but it's part of her whole passive-aggressive schtick...)



From:  Matt
To:  Ex
Re.:  The rock

Let's both talk with D15 about watching her mouth.  Nothing she said justified what S13 did, but I'm sure she provoked him and that needs to change.

For S13, I hate to make him miss the trip next week - a unique experience, and not fair to the other kids.  And I also hate to punish SS34 by not letting S13 visit him.

How about this:  Today after school, homework.  He should take homework with him tomorrow and get it all done in the car.  On Sunday, I'll put him to work - yard work.  And I'll require him to write an essay on specific tools he will use to make sure this doesn't happen again.  He got some from Counselor - he could even e-mail her to get reminders, and he can research anger management online.  5 pages, typed, no errors, with a clear plan for what he will do to make sure he doesn't act out like this again.

Til the yard work is finished (probably about 3 hours of pretty hard work) and the essay is done, no TV, no computer, no cell phone, no iPod.

I'll see him after school today.  Please let me know if this is OK or if you have a different idea.

[Matt]

(This is an unusual e-mail for me to send her - the length.  I've found that something like this once in awhile works OK - she responds well to my outreach.  I just have to not let it be a habit...)

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