Can I share this dialog for critique and suggestions?

[Think About It...]

I'm new to the board so I hope this is not too self indulgent.  This happened by text so I can cut and paste easily.  This is my world right now after 35 of marriage:

(We had carpets cleaned yesterday, they didnt do the bedroom, I called yesterday and they said they'd have some out today to inspect.  My wife was upset that they might come early, "before 10" on her day off and so I said I'd call and make sure they didn't.  That's where the text chair starts)


ME: They are not coming to look at carpet, they will get back to me with a time to come back to do BR. Sorry I didn't get it done right the first time. I'll be home by 5:30 or earlier if I can. Xo

HER: Uh--why aren't they coming?   So I got up at 8:30, rushed to do what I had to do, and got out for nothing?   Any other way you're planning to (expletive) up my schedule, or am I going to be free to salvage an hour or two for my own use?

ME: I told you that I would make sure that wouldn't come before 11 both last night and again this morning. When I talked to them about that I was able to convince them that they did not need to look at it at all but should just get them to come do the bedroom. They are coming to do that on Monday.

I don't think my behavior merited the text you sent me but I understand that is how it feels.
Xox

HER: Really?  How about I dictate your schedule for the next 8 hours.  You can start now---leave your office, take as much of your stuff as you can carry, andd go sit at a coffee shop for a few hours,  unless I change my mind and have other plans for you.  I'll let you know in half an hour, meanwhile, get going.

Your "lack of understanding" illustrates the misery of this "relationship" for me, perfectly.   I am always wrong, you are the wronged one, and you dominate everything with your plans and expletive-ups while I am apparently inconsequential.   After all, its not like my time might be as precious as the almighty (my name).   Most people can get a carpet cleaned, but it was asking too much to have this simple expectation of you. Btw,  you twice told me 10am, not 11am, i even checked with you this am. Must be nice to have a memory that makes automatic excuses for you.   And for some reason you could "convince" them this morning  (after turning me out)  and not yesterday.    Hmm.  Hope you are on your way to Starbucks by now. 


ME: You did say 10 that is correct. I was telling them 11 to be on the safe side. Text is probably not a great way to have this discussion, I will call you in a minute. (I called, she didnt answer)

HER: Hmmm--but you insisted you told me 11.   Any other "facts" you'd like to change ?

ME: No. Call me if you'd like to talk about it now. Otherwise we can talk about it later.

HER: why don't you just carry on both sides of the conversation yourself, and save the trouble of pretending to listen to me?

ME: I am sorry that I made you so angry and upset. I hope your day gets better. Xox

HER: Oh, my, trash someone else's day, then walk away holding a halo over your head.  Again, (my name) thinks "Have a nice day.". Is sincere communication.
Also, love how you take it on yourself to decide how and when we'll communicate.   There are probably some small countries looking for dictators.  Maybe you should apply.

ME: I understand the point. Sorry again, I just thought that conversation might have been better than text.  I have no right to "dictate" the method we communicate.

(about 2 hours later)
HER:Is there any point to trying to fix this sad and sorry relationship, or should we just call it a day?  I was always afraid of growing old alone, but now I know I'll most likely be alone anyway----either as a tiny shadow of you or on my own.

ME: I do think there is a point. We have a lot we have shared together. We are the main family each other has.  I hear you that it seems all bad, but other times you have expressed a different view.  I certainly don't want to cause you any more pain, but I would like to try and work through this.  I love you. Call me if want to talk rather than text. Or text if you'd rather. Xox

HER: So, again, my perception  is sht.   K---forget it.  Question answered.

ME: Your perception, my perception, anyone's is a real and true in that moment. I know for myself that sometimes my perception changes even when facts don't. I suspect that is true for everyone. Perhaps it isn't true for you, but I know that at times you have expressed a different view of our relationship with the same set of facts.

It sounds like you think there is no point in trying to salvage out marriage. You asked for my opinion and I gave it. I think there is a point. Not sure why you asked the question if you disnt want me to answer based on what I thought.


***

Any thoughts on this?

[GeneD]

I'm new to the board so I hope this is not too self indulgent.  This happened by text so I can cut and paste easily.  This is my world right now after 35 of marriage:

(We had carpets cleaned yesterday, they didnt do the bedroom, I called yesterday and they said they'd have some out today to inspect.  My wife was upset that they might come early, "before 10" on her day off and so I said I'd call and make sure they didn't.  That's where the text chair starts)


ME: They are not coming to look at carpet, they will get back to me with a time to come back to do BR. Sorry I didn't get it done right the first time. I'll be home by 5:30 or earlier if I can. Xo

HER: Uh--why aren't they coming?   So I got up at 8:30, rushed to do what I had to do, and got out for nothing?   Any other way you're planning to (expletive) up my schedule, or am I going to be free to salvage an hour or two for my own use?

ME: I told you that I would make sure that wouldn't come before 11 both last night and again this morning. When I talked to them about that I was able to convince them that they did not need to look at it at all but should just get them to come do the bedroom. They are coming to do that on Monday.

I don't think my behavior merited the text you sent me but I understand that is how it feels.
Xox

HER: Really?  How about I dictate your schedule for the next 8 hours.  You can start now---leave your office, take as much of your stuff as you can carry, andd go sit at a coffee shop for a few hours,  unless I change my mind and have other plans for you.  I'll let you know in half an hour, meanwhile, get going.

Your "lack of understanding" illustrates the misery of this "relationship" for me, perfectly.   I am always wrong, you are the wronged one, and you dominate everything with your plans and expletive-ups while I am apparently inconsequential.   After all, its not like my time might be as precious as the almighty (my name).   Most people can get a carpet cleaned, but it was asking too much to have this simple expectation of you. Btw,  you twice told me 10am, not 11am, i even checked with you this am. Must be nice to have a memory that makes automatic excuses for you.   And for some reason you could "convince" them this morning  (after turning me out)  and not yesterday.    Hmm.  Hope you are on your way to Starbucks by now. 


ME: You did say 10 that is correct. I was telling them 11 to be on the safe side. Text is probably not a great way to have this discussion, I will call you in a minute. (I called, she didnt answer)

HER: Hmmm--but you insisted you told me 11.   Any other "facts" you'd like to change ?

ME: No. Call me if you'd like to talk about it now. Otherwise we can talk about it later.

HER: why don't you just carry on both sides of the conversation yourself, and save the trouble of pretending to listen to me?

ME: I am sorry that I made you so angry and upset. I hope your day gets better. Xox

HER: Oh, my, trash someone else's day, then walk away holding a halo over your head.  Again, (my name) thinks "Have a nice day.". Is sincere communication.
Also, love how you take it on yourself to decide how and when we'll communicate.   There are probably some small countries looking for dictators.  Maybe you should apply.

ME: I understand the point. Sorry again, I just thought that conversation might have been better than text.  I have no right to "dictate" the method we communicate.

(about 2 hours later)
HER:Is there any point to trying to fix this sad and sorry relationship, or should we just call it a day?  I was always afraid of growing old alone, but now I know I'll most likely be alone anyway----either as a tiny shadow of you or on my own.

ME: I do think there is a point. We have a lot we have shared together. We are the main family each other has.  I hear you that it seems all bad, but other times you have expressed a different view.  I certainly don't want to cause you any more pain, but I would like to try and work through this.  I love you. Call me if want to talk rather than text. Or text if you'd rather. Xox

HER: So, again, my perception  is sht.   K---forget it.  Question answered.

ME: Your perception, my perception, anyone's is a real and true in that moment. I know for myself that sometimes my perception changes even when facts don't. I suspect that is true for everyone. Perhaps it isn't true for you, but I know that at times you have expressed a different view of our relationship with the same set of facts.

It sounds like you think there is no point in trying to salvage out marriage. You asked for my opinion and I gave it. I think there is a point. Not sure why you asked the question if you disnt want me to answer based on what I thought.


***

Any thoughts on this?

[~C]

1.  Stop texting when things get heated.  Even if she sends ten rude "we should divorce" texts in a row.

2.  Is she BPDw or NPDw?  Just based on the conversation, I'm kind of leaning towards NPD.  But I'm definitely NOT a pro.  Just my personal intuition and opinion.

[yeeter]

GeneD:

NOT too indulgent at all, and thank you for posting!  I find these types of posts very valuable to learn from, and look forward to seeing the responses. 

A couple high level thoughts:

Quit apologizing for how she feels, or how you made her feel (as in, Im sorry you feel that way).  I used to apologize too much, and it gets conflicted as a message (her interpretation is most likely - he is admitting he did me wrong - even if you didnt actually say it this way.  So in general I pretty much quit apologizing for anything related to feelings (now if I did a discrete action I regret I apologize for the action, not the impact that it had on her).

Dont defend, explain, justify.  Read the JADE.  Just state what you did and leave it at that.  You asked them to come at 11:00.  She was told 10:00.  (unless she asks, dont explain why).  If she asks you can say ' to give more breathing room in your schedule'.  Or something like this, since I assume you were doing it to help her accommodate.  If she requests that you dont make adjustments for her next time.  Fine.  But then if that causes problems (because she isnt ready, etc) then simply add the pad back in and tell her it works better that way.

So in a way, what I am saying is to quit being so courteous (by offering your reasoning or explanation, etc).  It sounds bad - but my experience has been that it works better that way.  Just make a decision, take action, inform her, and then move on.  She doesnt have to like it.  And she might get upset and rage or whatever (which is likely going to happen anyway). 

The you asked for it and I gave it comment is another defensive statement.  Just skip those.

I really like your feedback concerning the relationship.  And saying you love her.  That your position there IS a point to salvaging the relationship.  Maybe spend even more energy on this one... she might need to hear it 3 or 4 times before she really hears it.

[hithere]

Very sad...BPD is so crazy.

I have had similar text/conversations tons of times - although I was not as understanding as you.  Interesting her reactions were just as bad.

Well your on the staying board so I will say, you have great patience and keep up the good work!

[GeneD]

1.  Stop texting when things get heated.  Even if she sends ten rude "we should divorce" texts in a row.

2.  Is she BPDw or NPDw?  Just based on the conversation, I'm kind of leaning towards NPD.  But I'm definitely NOT a pro.  Just my personal intuition and opinion.

Why "stop texting"?  I get why talking would be better, but why is ignoring the second best thing?

I'm not a professional either.  Her 'official diagnosis' is BiPolar II.  My therapist says that Pdocs diagnose Bipolar II if they like you, BPD if they don't:)  He thinks she is BPD.  He also thinks, that because she was prescibed Abilify (which she stopped taking even though it helped) that her doc thinks she has BPD but just hasn't told her.

[momtario]

Stop texting, because it is better to avoid a situation where you are being abused. A lot of things she said in her texts were verbally abusive, and it's best to walk away.

Read the lessons, GeneD, starting with anything about boundaries or validation. Both are important, and both could have helped you with this conversation, and probably many others.

Take care

[GeneD]

Thanks for the feedback, wish I saw it sooner.  Here's the rest of the story:

HER:Oddly enough though, you didn't question your perception, but instead, as always, questioned mine.  That is the point, since you always need the point explained to you.  That is the thing that helps me to see that no matter what you say, you will never give up your narcissistic world view, and you will never be able to see me or hear me.  To spell it out for you further (since you seem to think that my role is part mommy/ part first grade teacher), I was hoping, ridiculously, for a response that indicated that you were willing to actually become a true life partner, a true "soulmate" who knows and understands me nearly as well as I know myself.   Instead, you're response was to take a defensive swat at me by implying that somehow my thoughts and feelings are unstable and not worthy of being counted or understood.  Do I need to dumb it down more for you?
You have broken me beyond repair.  

ME: I certainly hope that you are not broken beyond repair. Im leaving in a few minutes (in bike) I would like to talk rather than text if you are willing to

(When I got home, she was gone) leaving these texts:

HER: Thanks for parroting----so much easier than formulating one's own thoughts.   I'm really looking forward to what has become my daily verbal beating.   Maybe you'll get lucky today and make my head explode for real.
And, as usual, you continue to completely disregard everything I have said, except for half of one sentence.   I write to you in paragraphs, you respond in meaningless one liners.   Can't wait til we talk in person, that way you can go back to responding with silence as usual.

HER: I'm sure you would rather talk face to face----much easier to take control and beat others into submission.   But being around you, I've finally realized, is TERRIBLE for my health.  Very sad, but finally freeing, to get that revelation.


ME: I was sad to read these texts when I got off my bike. I wanted to talk rather than text because the seriousness of these topics were too important for text. That's how I feel. I understand that you feel differently.

I was thinking on the ride home about what you wrote about a soul mate that knows you nearly as well as you know yourself. I understand why you think I don't know you that well. However one thing a do know is that Kathi is smart and incredibly perceptive understanding more shades of grey than I can ever imagine. As I re-read this entire thread I was struck by all the black and white thinking. That may be exactly how you feel right now but that is not who you are.

I don't want to hurt you ever. If getting a divorce is what you truly want I will work with you to make sure that you will always have a safe and secure life. But that is not what I want. I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I'm    Ready to try and and work this out. I don't know if I can fix everything about me that contributes to the pain in this relationship. I do know that I will never stop trying to as long as I live.

I love you

HER: Wow----again, it is MY thinking that is faulty, not yours!   Sorry if I'm being too "black and white" for you.   Sorry that I don't see things the way you see them, and that you cannot ever ever ever allow yourself to think that perhaps it's your thinking that is the problem.  You seem to have been bent on destroying me today.   Each response more arrogant and uncaring than the last.  And you end up with "I love you"?  You must be joking.

ME: Im not joking. I do love you

HER: Thanks for continuing to ignore virtually every thing I've said today.   It gives me a clear picture of your "love".

ME: We can talk about all of it later tonite or tomorrow.

HER:Yup--of course it's always up to you. But then you told me earlier that you refused to communicate with me unless you controlled how and when.  How can you do this?  This is a new low for you.

###

Thanks again everyone.  I will read the lessons.

[yeeter]

Hi Gene,   

Read the lessons.  I agree with the validating approach.  It sounds
like she is upset that you are not understanding her feelings.  Validation might help demonstrate that you do understand how she feels, and empathize with her on these feelings. ( which is not to say you get why she is triggered to feel that way, just that she has a right to her feelings and it must be pretty disappointing and sad to feel that you aren't being cared for by your partner, and anger even that all he cares about is himself).   Whether thatstrue or not doesn't matter. 

Try spending an entire dialog just listening, and listening to her feelings ( more than the words). Try not to offer too much, but turn it around and question and just listen.   I have found my wife needs this on a regular basis and afterwards feels better about our talk ( even though it was just her monologuing for over an hour)

Read. Learn. I've been here about 7 months and am still working on the 'stop making things worse' step ( the first step)

[Rose Tiger]

This is hurtful to read, do her remarks feel hurtful to you?  I'm amazed you can stay so calm, that is an admirable trait.  That's going to help a lot in the future, to not respond in kind.  I would stop texting because I don't want to be talked to in that way, it's disrespectful and hurtful.  It's also kinder to her to put a stop to it because she is going to have to deal with the shame in how she responded, either with self hate or more bad feelings pointed towards you.  It's best for both of you to nip it in the bud.

I took an EI class through work, emotional intelligence.  They said that if someone is high emotion and wanting to say something, they cannot hear until they get it out.  It also helps to respond with high emotion.

"Wow!  You got up early and left the house?  Oh wow!  What a pain in the neck for you!  "

Once they get it out, they are more able to hear you.  This is true for people in general, too.

[GeneD]

This is hurtful to read, do her remarks feel hurtful to you?  I'm amazed you can stay so calm, that is an admirable trait.  That's going to help a lot in the future, to not respond in kind.  I would stop texting because I don't want to be talked to in that way, it's disrespectful and hurtful.  It's also kinder to her to put a stop to it because she is going to have to deal with the shame in how she responded, either with self hate or more bad feelings pointed towards you.  It's best for both of you to nip it in the bud.

I took an EI class through work, emotional intelligence.  They said that if someone is high emotion and wanting to say something, they cannot hear until they get it out.  It also helps to respond with high emotion.

"Wow!  You got up early and left the house?  Oh wow!  What a pain in the neck for you!  "

Once they get it out, they are more able to hear you.  This is true for people in general, too.

Yes they feel very hurtful to me, that's what starts me on the defensive path. 

This got worse when we both got home after a family birthday party.  She said that this was my one chance to save the marriage and I blew it.  I replied that I would have done some things differently in the text conversation if I had to do it gain, since looking back I made things worse.  She got very abusive at that point so I said I'm going to sleep (we were in bed).  She blew up and told me to get out of "her bed".  I argued initially but then realized that creating a boundary was my goal so I went and slept on the couch.

Who knows what today will bring

[GeneD]

This is hurtful to read, do her remarks feel hurtful to you?  I'm amazed you can stay so calm, that is an admirable trait.  That's going to help a lot in the future, to not respond in kind.  I would stop texting because I don't want to be talked to in that way, it's disrespectful and hurtful.  It's also kinder to her to put a stop to it because she is going to have to deal with the shame in how she responded, either with self hate or more bad feelings pointed towards you.  It's best for both of you to nip it in the bud.

I took an EI class through work, emotional intelligence.  They said that if someone is high emotion and wanting to say something, they cannot hear until they get it out.  It also helps to respond with high emotion.

"Wow!  You got up early and left the house?  Oh wow!  What a pain in the neck for you!  "

Once they get it out, they are more able to hear you.  This is true for people in general, too.

[GeneD]

Not sure why I am giving the blow by blow account, I am simply not sure of what I am doing.

When she woke up I Initiated a conversation about what happened yesterday.  Her part was mostly the same.  I did better, but not great, at validating.  She responded by calling me manipulative and dishonest.  I kept calm.  She started to get ready to go to the local farmers market which we do together on Saturdays this time of year.  I asked her if she wanted me to go with her or not and she said that she has nothing to do with what I do.  I said I'm going  are we riding bikes or driving, she said do whatever you want I am not going with you and left.  I did not go, thinking that a) it would not be much fun and full of more conflict and b)it would not help her either.

I have trepidation (FOG) that I just made another mistake, what do you all think?

[Rose Tiger]

Nope, you disengaged, that is the best option right now.  No need to rehash, it won't get resolved at this point.  Let it go.  Do something calming to you, eat something healthy, take a shower, exercise or go for a bike ride.  That gets the good endorphins going.  Until the communication skills improve, try not to discuss emotional issues.

The defensive remarks she makes are a coping mechanism she has used for a long time and it works for her.  Sends you on tangents and keeps her in control.

For now practice mindfullness, staying in the moment, touch something, look at something, stay in the here and now.  One day I was really mad at a driver and started getting triggered, I felt the steering wheel - how smooth it was, I looked at the flowers on the side of the street - the flowers are a beautiful color, that sort of self talk and it helped me to calm down.