What goes around...

[Think About It...]

Someone  who  has  no  remorse  that  a  2  year  old   dies  screaming  in  pain  is  not  deserving  of  my  empathy  im  sorry. 

I understand both sides. I remember asking my ex a few days ago if she wishes me well. Well, she giggled and tried to answer with avoidant answers.. basically, she didn't wish me well. I don't necessarily want to be the 'better' person by just wishing her well because I don't feel angry with her now. I want to wish her well because I truly feel it. She isn't happy and I really wish everyone would find their happiness, including myself

[nylonsquid]

Someone  who  has  no  remorse  that  a  2  year  old   dies  screaming  in  pain  is  not  deserving  of  my  empathy  im  sorry. 

I understand both sides. I remember asking my ex a few days ago if she wishes me well. Well, she giggled and tried to answer with avoidant answers.. basically, she didn't wish me well. I don't necessarily want to be the 'better' person by just wishing her well because I don't feel angry with her now. I want to wish her well because I truly feel it. She isn't happy and I really wish everyone would find their happiness, including myself

[Mauser]

"Unproductive posting" is subjective.

For some of us, it's very productive, therapeutic, and healing.

FriedaB, I'd be high-fiving you right now. No, it's not the correct, healthy, empowering, zen thing to do... but some days I'm just not the bigger better person.  It is what it is.

[FriedaB]

She  belongs  in  jail,  and  its  because  of  MY  poor  judgement  she  is  now  free  to  manipulate,  con,  steal,  extort  and  destroy  others,  some  of  them  children.  Currently,  she  is  ripping   off  an  AIDS  charity...taking  funds  and  assistance  meant  for  other  people  who  really  have  it.   I  think  this  is  where  im  stuck...I  feel  so  much  guilt  over  this... 

[MindfulJavaJoe]

Randi Kreger refers to as the invisible borderline. Often they have another coexistant condition which give then additional coping mechanisms Such as NPD. pwBPD + NPD can be relatively high functioning. Self harm may be less common in this group an they tend not to come to the attention of mental health professional but can cause chaos.. they typically move on and blame their ex for the r/s breakdown. False accusations seem quite common in this group also.

Here is a direct Quote from one of her books

"Higher Functioning Invisible BPs

1.   They strongly disavow having any problems, even tiny ones. Relationship difficulties, they say, are everyone else_

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[seeking balance]

 I  think  this  is  where  im  stuck...I  feel  so  much  guilt  over  this... 

How can we work on you forgiving yourself?

Didn't you do the best you could with the information you had at the time?

[Mystic]

I think that any time a person has angry thoughts toward someone who harmed them the basis of it all is simply unresolved pain.  

Pretty much everyone who's here went through a terribly painful experience with someone they loved and trusted and believed in.  There was hurt, betrayal and loss far beyond the "normal" loss of a relationship.  

Going through this sort of relationship is devastating on a level that most of us hadn't encountered before.  I'd been in abusive relationships before, my ex husband was a violent, out of control alcoholic and I was with him for 15 years, but that was like a day at the beach compared to my r/s with my BPD/nnpdexbf.  

There is a great deal of "what is your part" talk, and yes, to a degree, it is very important to examine that, in order to learn to protect yourself, to understand your vulnerabilities, to examine your past, to understand where you needed to set boundaries, so that such harm never comes to you again.  

I did have a hard time dealing with that sort of talk for quite some time because often it felt like "what did *you* do to deserve this?"  

Not knowing what I do now, I did *nothing* to deserve the treatment I received.  We don't get relationship manuals in young adulthood that tell us the secrets to recognizing mental illness and abuse, to know when to hold em, when to fold em, when to walk away, and when to run.  We don't learn how our family patterns might set us up for trouble.  We don't receive high school classes on how to run successful relationships, how to set boundaries, how to recognize and deal with signs of serious trouble and aberrant behavior.  I had no idea there was this brand of disorder out there, until I was trying to figure out what happened!  

I kind of liken it to the naive person getting into a car with a dangerous stranger and finding out too late that this was a serious "Oh ****" moment.  Should have known better than to get into the car?  Some do, some don't some learn the hard way.  

I spent most of the time withmy BPD/npdexbf in a fog of confusion, feeling like the sands were shifting constantly under my feet.  How can you possibly know how to act "right" or "wrong" when no matter what you do it subject to being either "right" or "wrong" in their eyes?  

I was as I thought I should be.  Loving, devoted, kind and patient...no matter what.  Now I know better.  I know now that there need to be mutually observed boundaries and limits in relationships.  I also know that there was likely nothing I could have done to have things turn out differently.  Once I was on that train the destination was inevitable.  

Learning these things doesn't make the pain go away.  Time does.  And even then, the amount of time varies.  To this day, 20 months later, I am still horrified and greatly saddened by what happened between myself and my ex.  I would never have believed it possible. 

Although its lessened enormously, there is still pain.  I actually dreamed about him just last night.  In the dream I saw him for the first time since.  He said "why won't you look at me, why won't you talk to me?" and  I said..."how could I ever possibly believe anything you say?"  How sad is that.  At one time, I adored this man, and was completely devoted to him, and trusted him completely.  The hurt, the betrayal, and the loss were enormous.    

I feel at his point, about as healed as I'm going to be.  I took the time to be alone, to heal, to recover, and most importantly, to learn from what happened so that it never happens again.  I'm ready to move on with my life, and I feel safe to move on in a relationship again.  I feel like I've read the manuals and graduated from the Hard Knocks U of relationships.  

Do I feel ill will toward him?  How would I feel if I heard of some failure on his part?  Guess I need to examiine that.  I honestly don't know.  I know I took no pleasure in my ex husband's melt down and drowning in remorse for the loss and destruction of our family last week.  It saddened and sickened me.  

Then again, these (BPD/npd/whateverpd) people make letting go of hard feelings difficult.  When approached for explanation or closure, they attack and are quite cruel. They seem to take pleasure in inflicting as much hurt and damage as possible.  They show no remorse, and their behavior is so callous as to be lacking in any sort of moral compass.  Kind of doesn't exactly bring forth warm fuzzies  

We're human.  We were wounded.  Wounded animals don't tend to sprinkle care bears, glitter and unicorns around, they tend to be raw, angry, protective, and to lash out.  It takes time to let go and for wounds to heal.  The amount of time depends on the depth of the wound.  I don't know that the healing is ever to 100% and that there ever comes a time when there is not phantom pain from the amputation without anesthesia we all received.  

[Mystic]

She  belongs  in  jail,  and  its  because  of  MY  poor  judgement  she  is  now  free  to  manipulate,  con,  steal,  extort  and  destroy  others,  some  of  them  children.  Currently,  she  is  ripping   off  an  AIDS  charity...taking  funds  and  assistance  meant  for  other  people  who  really  have  it.   I  think  this  is  where  im  stuck...I  feel  so  much  guilt  over  this... 

This is not your responsibility.  You did the right thing and helped someone you loved, cared about and believed in.  What she does with that is hers to own.  Her bad behavior is not your burden to bear. 

[LoveNYC]

Theoretically, I feel it's very possible to move on, better yourself and get past it all while still having a good chuckle when something bad happens to someone who is, well, BAD. They are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not saying chuckle that they got anal cancer or something, but got fat, heck yea!

And I also disagree that it has to be about personal hurt. For example, I do not personally know Michael Vick or even follow football. I know he tortured and killed innocent dogs. Not MY personal dog. Yet, when he went bankrupt and got dropped from his NFL team and I heard he had herpes, I was thrilled. Not because of a hurt or a "failure to move on" but because he is a revolting human being.

We have the fundamental belief that good things should happen to good people, and bad things should happen to bad people.

[FriedaB]

I  freed  Casey  Anthony...I  just  hope  in  the  end  god  can  forgive  me...                       

[gettingoverit]

Wow...this is quite the debate! I can understand both sides of the argument. On one hand we have been taught that it is beneath us to wish anyone ill will, even if they have hurt us, and on the other, when we are deeply hurt and abused, it becomes very difficult to wish the abuser well, or rather not take glee out of their misfortune...that is only natural. I have been on this board for almost a year now, and what a year it has been! I am not going to lie, I do not wish her and my lying backstabbing ex-friend well, and I doubt I ever will. I think someone brought up on this post before, our BPD exes it seems go out of their way to be as cruel, nasty, deceptive and miserable as possible to hurt as deeply as possible. Frankly I don't care if they are mentally ill. Just because they are does not give them a "Get out of Jail free" card. And as much as I have had to learn about the disorder (more than I have ever wanted to know), they still know right from wrong. I understand doing things on impulse, which is part of the disorder, however going out of your way to hurt the person you have already screwed over tells me that at least my ex was with it enough to know if she did A,B, or C, it would deeply hurt me to the bone. Vindictiveness, is that an illness now too? I know there are those that continue to say "Don't take it personal, it's about them and not you" How can you not take it personal? You give these people your heart and soul, you trust them with your deepest secrets, in some cases you share your life savings with them for your "future" together, and in the end you are left broke, in debt, heart broken, and your deepest secrets have now become a reason to why you are no longer suitable as a partner or in my case, a joke between your ex and your replacement...and we are supposed to not wish ill will on them?

However, having said all that, there does come a time when you have to start understanding the dynamics of the relationship and the part you played. For most of us we were not forced to stay with our exes, there were no guns pointed at our heads  forcing us to recycle up teen times. We chose to come back time and again because of our own dysfunction. I think that is what SB is trying to get at. Frieda I know this hurts very much, I know all about the bitterness and the resentment. I know about beating yourself up because you feel like a class A fool. Why? Because we were conned, nothing more. We believed the image they presented, and it wasn't until it was too late before we found out the truth. I still live it everyday. I for one think it's ok to be a little happy when we find out our ex's lives are not going as well as they had hoped. After what they put us through, I see it as a little comic relief if you will. Being angry is also acceptable. However there is a fine line between being angry and becoming bitter. Anger is good if dealt with properly, bitterness eats away at you and eventually takes all the joy out of YOUR life. Someone once said forgiveness is for our benefit, not theirs. It is also a process. And in our situations, a very hard one. However forgiveness frees US, not them. Isn't that what we ultimately want? To be free from these people and the hurt that they have caused? That is my goal, and after a year of hell..at any cost..even if it means forgiving her.

[Ex-Vamp-Slayer]

I understand wishing karma to strike my ex, but I really want to get to the point that she is a distant memory and was the final disfunctional relationship that put me in recovery from my foo issues. My t pushes me not to be the victim and look at my own behavior. When I look at myself with honesty I can look at how I make myself better.

If they lived a lie with us and played the victim do we really believe that they have changed because of a new partner? I really dont like being stolen from, lied to,cheated on and manipulated. I did my fair share in the relationship, but always from a position of integrity. I know she suffers from an illness and her new bf suffs from his issues as well. They now have their dance to do and I am no longer a part of it, even though I didn't know I was dancing at the time.

I don't want to know anything about her life. I don't want to know if it looks like it is going well because I don't want to deal with those feelings yet and I dont want to know if it is going poorly because I don't want to deal with feeling bad for her.

What I want is for it to be a memory without deep feelings around it. I know that that will happen with time and work on me. I no longer tell people how bad she was because that is as much a reflection on me that I was in the relationship.

I am having a hard time letting it go and I think part of the reason is that I have identified me in the role that I played and it is hard to say goodbye to that part of me even though he needs to go away for good...

[BPD Magnet 1]

   This is a person whom you say you ''truly loved''.My question would be this.If you so called ''truly loved'' this person,why would you wish HARM on them?..

   If you truly wish harm on them,then maybe you truly did not love them in the FIRST PLACE!...

   And if that is the case,then you are 100% accountable for being with this person in the first place, for your own SELFISH MOTIVES..And that my friend is on you..Hard pill to swallow...

  Just a thought... Hi!

[Dera]

My ex before my BPD was a pedophile and sexually assaulted me, beat me and terrorized me and my family. He is in jail for all these things. He did far worse things to me than exBPD did.

I certainly would not prevent him from facing the consequences of his actions. Nor can I be the person to help him. He SHOULD be in jail, for his sake, and to keep everyone else safe.

I hope and pray that he is not getting beat up in jail... the idea fills me with such horror the posts in this thread made me cry. I hope he is getting counselling and taking responsibility and telling the truth and getting healthy. The last time I saw him at his appeal hearing I have to say he looked better, not so ragged because during the trial he was using and he was paranoid and delusional.

I'm not saying this to sound superior or something... I actually envy you for being able to express your anger, which I have a problem with. I think that's what this is... just venting your anger in a safe place. I would like to think that if your ex was truly at your mercy you would choose to help and not harm her.

It's good to vent, and rant, and this should be a safe place to do it. However, it's also good for someone to be the devil's advocate here, as Patientandclear has stuck out their neck to do. Part of healing is forgiving, which soooo doesn't mean giving them another chance, and soooo doesn't mean saving them from experiencing consequences for their actions. It means understanding that they are in terrible pain and out of control, and they are not monsters. Accepting that they can never make what they did right and letting go of our need to punish them/make them see the light.

[purelove]

Mindfull,
I think you have the one of the best clear, balanced, non judgmental positions that is written here. I would add a touch of my own own basis in spiritualness: most simply put God says love everyone, he will judge the heart and capacity of each of us! He alone has the right and omniscience to do that!

[FriedaB]

I   never  wished  harm  on  her...it  happened  on  its  own.  I  didnt  go  looking  for  it  either...it   was  sent  to  me  by  a  family  friend.  I  dont  feel  bad  at  all.  Any  of  you  here  parents  ?  Would  you  feel  sorry  for  someone  that  stole  pain  medication  from  your  dying  child ?   That  beat  up  grandma  then  stole  jewerly  off  their  corpse  during  the  funeral?  Really  ?   If  you  can,   then  perhaps  you  are  a  better  person  than  me  then,  I  don't  know...

[seeking balance]

I   never  wished  harm  on  her...it  happened  on  its  own.  I  didnt  go  looking  for  it  either...it   was  sent  to  me  by  a  family  friend.  I  dont  feel  bad  at  all.  Any  of  you  here  parents  ?  Would  you  feel  sorry  for  someone  that  stole  pain  medication  from  your  dying  child ?   That  beat  up  grandma  then  stole  jewerly  off  their  corpse  during  the  funeral?  Really  ?   If  you  can,   then  perhaps  you  are  a  better  person  than  me  then,  I  don't  know...

Frieda - I hear your anger ... it is very real and a part of the process, no doubt about it.  I think what has me confused here is - exactly who/what are you angry at? 

In the opening post, it did come across as you gloating about her downfall - hey, no judgement, but this is what came across to me with your words.

Anger has a purpose, getting locked into angry ruminations or "what if" or "one-upping" eventually moves our progress into a negative place.

Again, are you angry at her or at you - and how are you working proactively to identify and move through the process besides posting on these boards?

Peace,
SB

[MindfulJavaJoe]

Anger is part of the grieving process and totally understandible.

Where anger becomes inhealthy is where you either fail to express it and it causes huge resentment or you express it in an unhealthy way either via violance, or acting out or prolonger ruminating anger that just eats away at your own soul.

There are many ways to express anger in a healthy way without breaking NC and without causing harm to another human being (especially on who is suffering from a mental health disorder).


Workshop - US: Can we hold the mentally ill responsible for what they do?


MJJ

[FriedaB]

Apologies  to  any  ive  offended...I  think  im  just  a  bit  low  on  empathy  right  now.   My  BPD/npd  mother  is  acting  up  again,  and  unlike  the  ex   I  am  stuck  with  her.  Of  course  they  can't  help  themselves... 

[MindfulJavaJoe]

Apologies  to  any  ive  offended...I  think  im  just  a  bit  low  on  empathy  right  now.   My  BPD/npd  mother  is  acting  up  again,  and  unlike  the  ex   I  am  stuck  with  her.  Of  course  they  can't  help  themselves...  

Not me.

I have been there and thankfully back.

It's a journey, the trick is not getting stuck when your train is derailed by some craziness in your life.

You'll figure it out, move on and wonder where that little bump in the road went.

You are on the right path, keep going  

[FriedaB]

Before  this  board,  I  never  realized  the  connection  between  x  and  mother.  Its  frightening  to   see  history  repeat  itself.  I  will  say,  tho  I  really  thought  the  x  was  just  BPD...had  I  known  how  severe  the  problem  really   was,  I  wouldve  left  her  in  jail...it  was  poor  judgement  of  enormous  proportions.