Unfamiliar behavior caused by boundaries; help.

[Think About It...]

  As long as someone isnt raging at you, validation is what is needed.

Interest, curiosity, etc are all emotions to show you care and are engaged with him.

If he is raging, the answer is to leave the area..

If he is talking about something and is upset, but not raging, then it makes sense to validate and to otherwise listen.

  Imagine if you are upset about something, and the person you are with is showing you a blank stare..then imagine the same scenario...you are upset,and the person you are speaking with asks questions, offers validation, etc.

Which feels better to you?

  We want to exit when something is abusive. We want to validate when emotions are in play, but arent abusive to you. We want to validate when we listen, instead of explain, justify, defend..


Steph

I think this is where I struggle, still. When my H is upset or angry, but still not raging, there is still a 50% chance that my own response will be to tense up as though the raging has already started, thus missing the opportunity to validate. I have been constantly thinking validate, validate, validate, every time we are in the same room, so I have been prepared for the chance should it arise. I'm just so focussed on thinking about how to validate if something should start, that I have been forgetting to participate in my own life.

[momtario]

  As long as someone isnt raging at you, validation is what is needed.

Interest, curiosity, etc are all emotions to show you care and are engaged with him.

If he is raging, the answer is to leave the area..

If he is talking about something and is upset, but not raging, then it makes sense to validate and to otherwise listen.

  Imagine if you are upset about something, and the person you are with is showing you a blank stare..then imagine the same scenario...you are upset,and the person you are speaking with asks questions, offers validation, etc.

Which feels better to you?

  We want to exit when something is abusive. We want to validate when emotions are in play, but arent abusive to you. We want to validate when we listen, instead of explain, justify, defend..


Steph

I think this is where I struggle, still. When my H is upset or angry, but still not raging, there is still a 50% chance that my own response will be to tense up as though the raging has already started, thus missing the opportunity to validate. I have been constantly thinking validate, validate, validate, every time we are in the same room, so I have been prepared for the chance should it arise. I'm just so focussed on thinking about how to validate if something should start, that I have been forgetting to participate in my own life.

[real lady]

Thanks to EVERYONE for your replies; sounds like this is a discussion that seems to be "hitting where we live" with our pwBPD.

Tomorrow we go to counseling; it seems that so far my BPDh's "focus" is on looking at MY behavior and how he gets so upset by WHAT I DO. I am prepared to sit and listen and hopefully sit and validate myself during the Inquisition. I am not looking forward to it. I have tried "broaching" the subject as to WHAT he would like to talk about and ask him to "let us work together" to decide what WE would like to talk about; seems as though what I may want to talk about is NOT his concern; as usual. Will let you know how it goes...

 

[Rose Tiger]

Be strong!  First meetings can be generally, name address how long married.  A good therapist eases into things.  Patience is a virtue.       

[momtario]

I hope you end up with a good counsellor, real lady. Like you were advised, let him paint you whatever colour he wants to at first, and we c an validate you when you get home, if need be.

You are a good person, in the real reality.

[Steph]

 One thing to remember is that he is telling the truth when he tells you what you are doing that upsets him. That is part of BPD...we DO get them set off by nuances, affect, a sigh, 3 seconds too long in answering a question.

To us, it looks ridiculous/petty/nitpicking and definately out of proportion to the reaction.


To the person with BPD, tho, its the spark that lights the fuze...and indeed, we DID take too long to answer...we DID that, and yea, it is what makes them angry.

At least that is what it looks like in BPD eyes.

  So, let him complain and whine and tell her all the terrible things about you...she knows BPD and she will see a pattern that is there. Let him do whatever it is he needs to do, say what he needs to say.

  we actually got termed on our 2nd marriage counseling session, because our MC recognized BPD and referred him to DBT, telling us that until that gets taken care of, there was little she coul do to help us. That move saved his life and our marriage

Steph

[real lady]

Thanks again...    I am ready for him to paint me BLACK BLACK BLACK and for our counselor (him) to see what I will NOT NEED to say.

I asked my BPDh "what would you like our first counseling session to accomplish?". He more or less said that he doesn't think that it will accomplish or focus on anything productive and that I will be talking about HIM and how bad he is; I told him that I love him and want for him and I to be happy together again. He just sighed...

He tells me ALL that I do that bothers him but he will yet hear even ONE of my concerns.

We will see how the first meeting and IF he will continue. Tired...getting to bed. Good night and THANK YOU so much for the kind words and support; I really appreciate it.

[andywho]

definately out of proportion to the reaction.

Sooo many times i have told mt GF this trough the years... but no i know that this is something i cannot change... herfeelings.

[real lady]

My uBPDh was told that HE needed to set boundaries as to not "lose his peace" on either me or my son and was instructed to tell me that either my son or myself is disturbing his peace (we all know it is the other way around really)...He claims that he "has NO peace" and so last night I told him that we are going to give him more space, hope he "finds his peace and keeps it"...and so to "keep the peace" after our counseling session; I and my son have spent the WHOLE DAY so far AWAY FROM HOME; he is at home taking care of his puppy and probably gaming all day. We have enjoyed the Metro park; kids play park and are now at the library and will be heading in about an hour to make dinner (he was on his own for breakfast/lunch; he keeps later hours)...

Sad but true, spending time with him hurts me more than the joy I "used to feel" when being with him. He told our counselor that he "wants us gone"...I am working on making that a reality..6 months he will either GET help and FOLLOW advice of counselor or I will start looking with the resources that I am gathering RIGHT NOW.

The one thing that I realize in this is though it is MY preogative up to now to stay with him; even his "wanting us to go" hasn't moved me...NOW I am thinking that I don't care if he DOESN'T want us to go if/when I decide to move to the "leaving" thread...we will see...

[Rose Tiger]

    I read about your marriage counselling appointment.  I'm very impressed with your counselor.    There can be so many combinations when it comes to PDs, lack of empathy seems to be one that covers them all.  The counselor might be able to decipher NPD or comorbid with other PDs.  I've been reading Randi stuff, recently she has been branching out from BPD into the NPD world and the differences.  I'm looking forward to what she discovers since my husband has both!

[real lady]

Thanks Rose Tiger   

AND THANK YOU Randi; I did not realize that you authored the book that I have been reading daily.

I do definitely think that Narcissistic traits are comorbid with BPD; his escalation of anger into rage, his SLOW or seemingly nearly nonexistent DE esceleration, impulsivity and denial are VERY apparent to me. I think that our counselor has "his number".

In the meantime, my uBPDh has accused me of "turning the counselor against him" and called him an "a-hole" to discredit him. He asked me today" so you want to get into it?" he continued "we don't have to wait the three days like the a-hole said. I am planning on sending him a letter; stating that I will ONLY talk with him with our counselor present; apart from that, I know that I am OUT of denial and very ANGRY. I am NOT willing to live with this for the rest of my life; even if I love him, he has not given me enough "good times" in the past 8 months to justify the abuse that I have endured from him...in his words "I am done".

[Steph]

 This makes sense to me.

 Even if he began recovery today, it woud be years before he was well. NPD recovery is different than BPD recovery and it is very challenging. Recovery from BPD is far from easy, smooth or linear...It is very up and down, and sometimes the downs can be tremendous.

So, the question that begs asking is this.. Are you willing to endure years more of how things have been in the last few months? If so, how will you manage it?


Steph

[real lady]

thanks for asking the HARD questions that do not have answers that come to me so easily.   

I am starting individual counseling and I am NOT willing to live my life; the rest of my life, as we have the past 8 months. I am entering counseling and hope to get back into the work market and move out if needed within this next 12 months. We will divorce if he is not on the recovery road within the year. That's what I have so far; my anger level hit an all time high yesterday and I feel more balanced and confident today. I have to do what I have to do for my son and I. I am thinking of sending a letter to my uBPDh and would love to get some feedback on it; should I post it here?

thanks.

[Steph]

 Letters dont work in our experience here...


What happpens is that no matter how well thought out, the reciever usually dysregulated in the first paragraph and it all just falls apart.

What is it that you want to say?

[real lady]

...more or less what I have shared with him over breakfast which he dysregulated, raged, told me to leave, going to call the cops and have my son and I taken to the shelter and I told him that I love him; that fear and intimacy are triggers for many people and I want to NOT cause fear of abandonment and consider this to be a trigger for him and I let him know that I want to be closer to him but the fear of intimacy may not allow him and we could work through it all and that I am WILLING to go through it with him...he quieted down; went to his computer; this was an hour ago and he is talking fine now...amazing.

I also have blogs that he reads and I was able to get most of the content of the letter into a "we have choices" (steering clear of the word CHANGE); more of an empowerment post. Fortunately, I feel pretty lucid and NOT angry as I had been in the past few days. He called our counselor names and I asked him WHAT would NOT have been BS and he said that he "was prejudicial against him" because I sent an email (which he asked to see and I sent to him) saying that we had some conflict and highly emotional and stressful communication that we would like help with. I used the term "emotional dysregulation" and he "went off" (gotta laugh at this though it is beyond me how he can argue and yell that he is NOT emotionally dysregulated...   )

I agree, letters for the most part are NOT read and they seem to trigger him but he is able to read my writing on my blogs. Sometimes I think he is paranoid or just controlling when he says that "I am saying stuff on the blogs so that I can use against him later". 

Overall; a MUCH better day than I thought. We have been to counseling; he agreed that we could try to "live in peace" so myself and son would have time to move out and live elsewhere. I am holding him to this and he has refused to go back to the counselor. I would like him to pick one but don't want to bring it up yet.

thanks.