She wants a divorce - what can I expect? <continued>

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Thank you Ellil,  , I'm trying to see too that life has a path, even though it hurts now. I'm just really wishing this is the right path to take.

[CSSL]

Thank you Ellil,  , I'm trying to see too that life has a path, even though it hurts now. I'm just really wishing this is the right path to take.

[CSSL]

Hey everyone, not much updates besides her email last night that only said 'sleep tight'. Getting more depressed by the day, I don't want our marriage and life together to end, even though I know it would always be different from now on if she does decide to reconciliate.
I just don't know what to do with anything, am way too sad to deal with the new job and moving away, haven't told her yet, don't know how to. I am so done with this pain, it seems to reach more deeper levels every day.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for analyzing and making the decision to either continue working on your relationship or to leave it. If you have already please advance to "L3 Leaving" or the "L4 Staying" board. All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[CSSL]

I just posted this on a leaving board but have to post it here as well, because it describes most accurately the confusing I am feeling all the time:
Does it really matter that recycling would be all about her? Maybe then I can tend to her needs better than I have so far, when I didn't know about the BPD, and it would lead too more harmony too.
 I am on the undecided board as well, because I am sure I want to make it work, but she wants to divorce me and there are already steps taken towards that, lawyers spoken to.
Being on this board does make me see and realise other things, especially if it really comes to the scenario of her actually leaving me, because dealing with that, as I have been trying to the past weeks, only makes me want to kill myself most days, job abroad or not.
Reading about other peoples experiences here puts everything in a different perspective too when it comes to dealing with my pain and grief over this marriage, but at the same time I still have a part of me that is kicking and screaming to hold on. It's so confusing to feel this way, torn between having to accept her leaving me, understanding the underlying BPD things, and at the same doubting if she will really go through with it, and because of that having hope again.

[Rose Tiger]

Hey Sweetie, how are you doing today?  I was thinking about the person that emailed you from the company, you must of made an impression and they are really looking forward to working with you.  What if this group is a nurturing bunch?  I was thinking about how healing that would be for you.  Interested in helping you to further your career, to grow as a person.  It's like you are being thrown a safety net during this very hard and confusing time.  Will they help you find a place to stay and things like that?

When people feel like they want to die, I think it's more they want to escape from pain most of all.  I've been there, feeling like I just can't go on another minute.  Medication can really help to get us out of that pit. 

[CSSL]

Hi Rose Tiger, I just posted this another board, and today I feel more clear-headed than before, a bit more calm too:
Marriage-wise, it seems like 5 steps back, me taking a job in another country, while we just got married and moved in together, but BPD-wise, I am hoping that you're right, that me taking this job and becoming more independent will lead to reconciliation in a way perhaps.
So I should take the job.  I've been talking to a friend about this for the past hour, and I am trying to feel good about this decision myself by plainly stating the facts about what has happenned the past weeks without trying to figure out what her actions mean or how she means them or what my 'fault' in them is:
I've been here, in our home, alone for weeks now. My wife brought up wanting a divorce I think a little over a month ago. She has been sleeping at the house of another couple, one of them is her co-worker. In this weeks, what I have changed is to stop pleading and begging, and it has led to little result: she is thinking about trial separation before divorce now, and our contact is on some days at least not hostile/dysregulated.
What she has changed in these weeks, is having a new mobile number I can't have (Her reason: I am too controlling, this way she feels more free), signed up on a dating website to make new friends (I really hope that is all she is doing), and is going so far as to not even sharing with me where she will be for the weekend when she leaves the country, basically leaving me all by myself in a country I don't even speak the language. I asked, pleaded, reasoned with her to at least tell me where she will be in case of an emergency, and she still refused. I should just email her if I needed to reach her.
So basically, the past weeks, things have only gotten worse with me still being here.
The Berlin job can't make it worse in this scenario, and if me going and doing something for myself will lead to her recycling me, than so be it; I still want this marriage to work so I would go for it. If the Berlin job and me being away means she will cut all ties to me: well, at least I have the chance on a new life again then.

Update: I just emailed my wife if she could come by the house tomorrow so we can talk because I have news, so that we can arrange things, and she is refusing to do that, she just wants to do it all by phonecalls. I feel hurt by it, but it also makes me feel unsafe, like I can't even depend on her to make clear arrangements together. I'm trying to reason with her here but it does not seem to work. Now what? I still need her co-operation to even get to Berlin.

[Rose Tiger]

    What do you need from her to get to Berlin?

[CSSL]

Rose Tiger, I would need her financial help with finding temporary housing, I would need help with getting to Berlin in the first place with some basic stuff like clothes, personal items, etc.
Also, have an update and am afraid I did it all wrong:

I think I already made her disregulate..I sent her an email today, asking her to come by the house because I had some news (didn't want to tell about the job and it's consequences over phone and email), that there were a lot of sides to it, and that we should talk about it together and set out a course to take.
She replied with that she didn't want to come by, let's do it over the phone, I replied with that I really thought it would be important to meet so that everything would be clear, and this went back and forth until she asked in one email: 'will you be away for the next few weeks or what is there to arrange?', and I replied with:
'No I am not gonna be gone for a few weeks at the moment, but I might be going in a few weeks and there is a lot to discuss with you about that, about the lawyer, about how we arrange things etc. I think it will be faster and more clear if we meet up and set out a course of action together, incl money, lawyer, everything.'

She then replied with: 'ok. then let's meet up one of these days. right now i can't think clearly at the moment and i am in a very bad state emtionlly and healthwise and i'm sick and puke. stress i think. maybe middle-end of the week then.'
I think I've upset her with me saying I would be going away in a few weeks, and I tried to do some damage control by telling her: 'And if it matters to you or not: even with the news I have, I am still open to making things work between us, as always, and at the same time I will still accept your decision too if it's what makes you happy. It's news that affects both of us and it's something we can find a way in together I hope, at least for the short term. Also; the news for me does not change anything in wanting to be with you. I know you feel differently about that and I am really hearing it, I just always want you to know that for my side it is different. Btw, just to be clear, with me going away in a few weeks would be temporary too, and even the going away part is not for sure,  but we still need to talk about it all and see how we do things and what your preferences are. I appreciate you coming by next week then and let's talk on the phone tomorrow to see how and what and when.'

I am really afraid I made her feel bad/triggered her fear of abandonment, and I so desperately want to make her feel better or at least not worry about me leaving her, even when she herself seems certain about wanting to leave me.

PS: She also sent this at some point: "I would appreciate if you would let me know the most important news upfront. if not, then i guess i will get informed when we meet up."
But I really do not want to bring the news of the job and me taking it and being gone at least during the week over the phone or email. Tips, suggestions, on how to handle all of this without causing her additional stress and triggering all kinds of fears?

[Rose Tiger]

Oh, ok, I would email that one woman from the new work and ask her if she had any suggestions for places to stay.  She probably knows the area.

Do you have a lot of stuff to take?  You might be able to get a furnished place if you don't have the furniture or if it's too hard to take furniture.

It sounds like your wife is too overwhelmed to see you.  As hard as this is for you because she is emotionally immature, it's hard on her because she is emotionally immature.  I like the path you are on with be gentle with her, telling her that yes the divorce can go forward and that it is something you don't want, that you care for her and would like to work things out.

Showing her that in grown up people world, deciding to divorce, get a separate phone, put up a dating profile, being unavailable means that partners have no other choice than to make arrangements to rectify the situation.  This will teach her a powerful lesson that talk of divorce and her actions means you will be not around for awhile.  If she flips to warm again you must push forward with your plans because you can no longer trust her to keep her word.  Because if you do reconcile in the future, she must understand that when she starts down this road, this is the sort of thing that will happen.

The feeling sick says to me that she is afraid that you will want more from her than she can handle.  She can't handle your emotions and the thought of dealing with your pain is too much for her.  You must be the adult and model mature capable behavior.  This will be soothing to her and she will be more receptive if you are matter of fact and continue saying, we can continue with the divorce and we can get me situated in Berlin.  The calmer and matter of fact you can be, the better she will be able to handle communicating with you.

[Rose Tiger]

As much as this hurts, when she finds out you got the job, she will probably be relieved.  Because she is just too out of her comfort zone with an intimate relationship, do not take this personally!  If she wasn't ill, she would appreciate you, she would never do the stupid moves she is doing now.  It's not you.  IT'S NOT YOU.  Please keep this in mind!

Can you work out a plan, how much money it will be for each item that you will need help with from her.

Plane fare $$
Deposit and first month's rent on a place $$
Food $$
Internet/phone $$
Money for transportation/car $$
Some business clothing $$
Anything you can think of $$


Honey, I think she is so far over the edge that I don't know if she can help you with anything other than finances.  I know a big chunk of money makes it a lot easier to get everything set up.  Do forsee any issues with her helping with money?  Does she have access to a loan or credit card?  Offer to pay it back if this is financially overwhelming to her.  She has the job so can get loans and credit cards, you don't at the moment but soon will.

[Rose Tiger]

Finally, you know her best, if you want to tell her now about the job and discuss details later or if you want to tell her about the job and details at the same time, that is a personal decision based on what you know about her and how best you think she can handle it.

[CSSL]

Hi Rose Tiger,
I am trying to arrange things in a way that will cost her the least amount, even though she is getting paid for me to be in this country too, it's part of her job benefits. She seems to have lost control a bit over her finances since she started with this whole thing (at least, that's the impression she is giving me over email), normally I was always the one keeping in check that all accounts were balanced and that we'd save a bit every month too. And; I really hate asking her for money but in the end I will need her help to get started up there in any case. I just hope I can have a normal face to face talk with her about it all somewhere next week, instead of being forced to do it over email or phone. I was actually just getting a really scared moment about berlin and going there, sort of second thoughts...Do i really want to be again in a city where I know no one? Where I might live out of a suitcase who knows where in the beginning? I'm suddenly realising how big of a change it will be and I'm getting pretty scared, and worried about the financial part as well. The people from the new job sent me links to a website where I can look for a room or something, but I don't get the impression they are gonna be of much help in this department.
In any case thanks for the tips on how to handle talking to her Rose Tiger, I will try to stay as matter of fact as possible, if only just to not upset her more emotionally. But if she does flip to wanting me again, than why should I not go for it? It's exactly what I want, even if it would mean travelling between france and berlin for a while.

[Rose Tiger]

That's what I mean, travelling back and forth is fine.  As long as she travels to see you, too.  If it's all you doing all the work, no good.  You will grow to be very resentful of that.  But that is way in the future, let's stick with right now.

Of course this is scary.        Do you see that it is your best option?  Return to parents.   Stay with your wife who is emotionally abusing you.   Becoming successful and independent, growing with a new job, learning just how brilliant and wonderful you are, working towards a healthy relationship with your wife.      I know that if you have the courage to move to France, you have the courage for Berlin.  You, my friend, are a survivor.  I have every confidence that yes, YOU CAN DO THIS. 

[CSSL]

     Thanks for the uplifting words Rose Tiger. Gonna try to feel that way too in a bit, at the moment just worried again about my wife, what she is up to, what she is feeling, how it will influence arranging things... It's getting so tiring to worry about 10.000 scenario's every single day.

[CSSL]

Update: My wife agreed to calling today to see when we would set up a day to meet and talk.
I still really believe I should tell about Berlin face to face.
She called me this morning, because she called in sick at work but in case her boss would call our home, that I should say she is just sleeping, because her boss does not know she is not staying here. After that she emailed later, if anyone called, and we agreed to call tonight and perhaps meet up tomorrow then to talk.
What is weirding me out is this; I expressed feeling sorry that she is sick, and that if she would just want to be in our home, I would be happy to take care of her, without any expectations. She replied with:  "that is sweet of you and i really appreciate that and at the same time I wonder why youwould still care for me. i mean that honestly. it just wouldn't be right. it would feel like "using" you and i don't want that."
And all I can think immediately is: she is done with me, possibly has someone else, that's why she feels like she would use me, and the contact we are having now is just her reaching out because of the fear of having pushed me away too far, sort of recycling perhaps, but without any intentions to even concider not going through the divorce. Also, I just realised she hasn't told me she loved me in almost a week now.I did tell her.
I think she is really done with me and us. Oh god. The berlin thing will probably not change one thing in this.
And I want to ask her so desperately if she still loves me even though I already know the anwser to that. F*ck. I think my marriage is really over. I really don't exist to her anymore as her wife. I don't even know what I am feeling right now.

[CSSL]

Update, we talked on the phone and I really need all your advice here!

We started out calm, it got heated because she started getting really demanding and irrational again; we were talking about which countries law would be used if we are surely to file for divorce, because now she maybe wants to do it according to german law whether I agree or not, because she does not trust me to not hold up divorce proceedings if we do it according to dutch law, (I think she is projecting there, I already told her numerous time that I will be co-operating), she started to threaten again with cancelling our house contract if I am not gone fast enough (I told her that I do not want to move out officially until we have taken definite steps towards divorce and have actually filed for it, under whatever law we choose) and when I started validating, and asking more questions, what came out was: I don't care about her needs.
I asked her again what her needs are, so that I can come towards her in that.
One of them is for her to have her life back, in our home, with me gone, and my furniture too.
I pointed out that I do care about her needs, and that we seem to have the same goal, chosing one countries law that makes filing the easiest, and that we should then take steps towards that.
After a while I really had to tell her I got the job and that I would be gone in a month probably, because she expressed a few times that she feared that I would drag out everything for months and months without moving out, and I also expressed that we should think about all different roads we can take in this, since the job does start fast.
She then got emotional, started crying, and wanted to hang up to think and then talk tomorrow.
I then emailed her this;
I love you, always will, and all options are open for you, even with me getting this job.
If you would be up for a trial separation, than so am I. If you are up for seeing if doing it long distance for a little while would maybe change things for the positive between us, than I am up for that too, also with building in extra safety for you on paper at the lawyer so that you don't have to pay any extra allimony if you later decide to want to divorce.
If you want the divorce still asap, then I have no choice but to accept that, and we should get going on all the steps.
If you'd rather not have me go and take the job, than that is up for discussion too.

In all scenario's my position stays the same: I love you and don't want to lose you, but if you are sure you want a divorce, than I will accept your decision.
Just think about it, which way you want to go, which way we can go, and which steps we should be taking then the next weeks, because there will be stuff to arrange in all different scenario's.

To which she responded with:
i just want to die

What do I do now?
I knew I could expect such a reaction from her once I took a step towards myself and detaching but I have no idea how to handle this now.
So I've sent her this: Sweetheart, I am trying to reach you on the phone. Why do you feel that way?
Do you want to talk, or come here and talk?
All roads are still open to you. All of them.

To which she responded that she can't talk right now, and that we will talk tomorrow.
Her reaction is making me really nervous, about what she might do next. I really don't know how to handle this.

[CSSL]

Update: she will always love me and she feels lost.
I keep replying that all roads to her are still open and that I love her too.
I don't know what to do with this. Her behaviour was predicted everywhere on the boards, and since I really do not want to lose her I don't know how to handle this.

[CSSL]

Another update: later she emailed this:  it rps my heart apart everytime i see or hear you. noone has ever gotten closer to the real me, maybe noone ever will. i miss you so much that i just want to be dead. i don't know how to get on my feet anymore, how to breathe, how to live. (please don'T respond or tell me that every way is open and possible). just know that you will always be the one i wanted.

I responded with: I don't know how to respond in any case. I feel all the same things but you already know that. Let's talk tomorrow then.

What I mostly need advice on now, is how I should deal tomorrow in the two most likely scenario's:

1) Her expressing feeling torn, alone, upset, having feelings for me, maybe even expressing that she does not know what to do

2) Her still wanting a divorce, maybe also combined with all those feelings as stated in situation 1 and in her email

How and what do I validate? How do I at the same time make it clear to her that I still want our marriage to work but that I would respect her decision for divorce too if that is what she wants?
And on top of it all, I am having second thoughts on Berlin myself, and the 'easy' route (= not taking the job, waiting it all out with my wife and see what she really decides on and which steps she will  really take, and then go back to my homecountry and just get some rest of it all) is getting more and more attractive. Maybe it's fear about the unknown of going to Berlin, but I am really not looking forward to not even having a steady place to stay there, a more than full time job, and at the same time also having no certainty about what will happen with the divorce. I just really want some peace of mind, rest, and not constant stress all the time.

[CSSL]

Is this maybe a way to go tomorrow?
"Sweety, you seemed to get emotional about the news of me getting this job yesterday, and the short term consequences if would have for both of us. To be honest, I am not comfortable with the consequences either.
Maybe we can see which roads there are that would feel good to both of us before we jump into a course of action that we both don't feel good with at the moment."
And that I then leave it up to her? It just breaks my heart every time I think back of her starting to cry when I told I got the job and would have to leave for it in a few weeks.

[pallavirajsinghani]

CSSL:  I understand that the heart will pull you in one direction and the reason in another...

It is tough.  When at a fork in the road, either direction has its pros and cons.  Either road taken will mean the other road not taken.

So, accepting the job will give you financial independence and perhaps it will take the pressure of financial dependence away from both of you.  Perhaps this is the best place to be in...no pressure on either of you...in order to make this relationship work.

Here is a story I would strongly recommend that you read...just switch genders.

http://www.thecruxmovie.com/pdf/TheBridgeShortStory.pdf

Whichever direction you take...us sisters will always be with you and rooting for you.  :-)

[Rose Tiger]

Powerful story Pav.   I remember my friend telling me that I had a choice and I kept saying I have no choice and she stopped me and said, you need to get out of your head and into your heart, you have a choice.  Because I kept thinking there was a solution that would fix everything.

CSSL, sorry I've been away!     I know you are going to be kind and that's what your wife needs more than anything, your kindness and your willingness to understand.  It's so hard because you never know where they are going to go emotionally, and if it's too much they push you away and rage.  It's not you, it's the illness.  You love her so much and when she gives you signals that she loves you too, it makes you want to stay so bad.

I would keep to the job plan myself personally, if only to have a few months break to get my head clear and to give my partner time to figure out what they truly want.  It is too painful to be pulled and pushed like this, it's too hard on the heart.  If only you can get a bit stronger and your head cleared a little bit then you are in better shape to negotiate, to be the strong partner she needs.  I needed the break to learn more about BPD, to understand it better so I could relate to my husband in a healthier way.  When we were both messes, no good.