Daughter very attached to my ex who I am just realising may be BPD. Please help

[Think About It....]

My ex bf (T) ended the relationship 5 weeks ago. We have been involved for a year but in that time we have reverted on and off to friends here and there as either he or I would realise he is messed up about relationships. He is going through a horrendous divorce and paints his ex wife as evil at times. He has issues with anger toward her and she withdraws contact with his 6 year old son. He says and I believe that his anger is noever expressed toward his son.

At Xmas T took an overdose having found out his ex wife was involved with another man. He was hospitalised and on Xmas day I left my 2 children ( now 10 and 7 ) to spend time with him. I realised he had more pills and he gave them up to me. He now credits me with 'saving his life'.

I have kept him very low key with my children, always saying we are just friends. In front of my daughter though he was recently saying more a
nd more how beautiful I am. around 3 months ago he was going away for a few days to work and he asked if I and the children would come and get a holiday cottage. This was a big decision for me and I told him that. He said he would always be in our lives so I had nothing to worry about. I still said to the kids we are just friends. It went great and the kids loved him.

When he ended the relationship he said he needed time to do the last bit of getting better on his own, that he had become too dependent on me. He also said I am too important to lose and all relationships end, that what we have is too important for a relationship.

I have been trying to mediate between T and his ex wife about contact for his son as they cannot communicate and she has a non molestation order on him. Recently his calm behaviour toward her disappeared again and he spat at her. He is now facing charges. During a text conversation with his ex wife she mentioned that he is seeing someone. I asked T about it and he said he was referring to me and had told her about me but used another name. He wanted her to know he was moving on as they had been getting on well.

Ten minutes later he texted me to say that that was untrue and there was someone. He had been seeing her 2 weeks but nothing sexual had happened. He said he couldn't lie to me and was really sorry. He said it's a release from all the sht his life has become.

In the last few days he has told me he has told this new woman all about me and how important I am in his life. He hasn't told her that we were sleeping together. He still keeps telling me how he loves me and how beautiful I am. He has told this woman about the assault charge but not about the non molestation order. I said he has to tell her the whole truth so she can make proper choices. He says that's rubbish, she doesn't want to know about his past relationships and she doesn't need to know about the non mol.

Last weeken I decided to end all contact but my 10 year old daughter could not understand and I didn't handle it well. I told her T had a girlfriend and i wasnt coping with it. She was angry with him but still wanted to see him. So I changed my mind and he came over. But we argued and he left just as my daughter was getting used to everything being ok again. I asked him to come back but he wouldnt and iwe ended up going over to where he lives and all going out for dinner. The weekend ended really happily but what a mess altogether for my poor kids!

However that was before I started to realise he may be BPD. Having found out more about the lying I am looking at him in a different light. My daughter loves spending time with him, he gives her huge amounts of attention, takes her shopping, all the things that her father, who she lives with 50% does not do enough of. BUT she's only really had all this for 3 months so I think it would be better for her to go no contact now but I need to explain it in a way she can cope with. My son isn't as involved with it all and has a very strong relationship with his dad. He gets on fine with T but is much more cautious.

T's anger is out of control again right now and he also said an anti Muslim thing to the kids. After he had gone they said that's not that's not the T they know. I am thinking I can say that he isn't being very nice, that he continued to say racist stuff to me and I had to break contact with him. I'm not Muslim but we live in a very mixed area and don't tolerate anything like that.

Of course his 'new partner''s daughter's father is a Muslim. How worrying is that situation.

How can I handle this the best way for my daughter? She just got a mobile for her birthday and had his number. She deleted it when I told her about the girlfriend but now things are ok again as she thinks, I think she will ask me for it back again soon.

[maria1]

My ex bf (T) ended the relationship 5 weeks ago. We have been involved for a year but in that time we have reverted on and off to friends here and there as either he or I would realise he is messed up about relationships. He is going through a horrendous divorce and paints his ex wife as evil at times. He has issues with anger toward her and she withdraws contact with his 6 year old son. He says and I believe that his anger is noever expressed toward his son.

At Xmas T took an overdose having found out his ex wife was involved with another man. He was hospitalised and on Xmas day I left my 2 children ( now 10 and 7 ) to spend time with him. I realised he had more pills and he gave them up to me. He now credits me with 'saving his life'.

I have kept him very low key with my children, always saying we are just friends. In front of my daughter though he was recently saying more a
nd more how beautiful I am. around 3 months ago he was going away for a few days to work and he asked if I and the children would come and get a holiday cottage. This was a big decision for me and I told him that. He said he would always be in our lives so I had nothing to worry about. I still said to the kids we are just friends. It went great and the kids loved him.

When he ended the relationship he said he needed time to do the last bit of getting better on his own, that he had become too dependent on me. He also said I am too important to lose and all relationships end, that what we have is too important for a relationship.

I have been trying to mediate between T and his ex wife about contact for his son as they cannot communicate and she has a non molestation order on him. Recently his calm behaviour toward her disappeared again and he spat at her. He is now facing charges. During a text conversation with his ex wife she mentioned that he is seeing someone. I asked T about it and he said he was referring to me and had told her about me but used another name. He wanted her to know he was moving on as they had been getting on well.

Ten minutes later he texted me to say that that was untrue and there was someone. He had been seeing her 2 weeks but nothing sexual had happened. He said he couldn't lie to me and was really sorry. He said it's a release from all the sht his life has become.

In the last few days he has told me he has told this new woman all about me and how important I am in his life. He hasn't told her that we were sleeping together. He still keeps telling me how he loves me and how beautiful I am. He has told this woman about the assault charge but not about the non molestation order. I said he has to tell her the whole truth so she can make proper choices. He says that's rubbish, she doesn't want to know about his past relationships and she doesn't need to know about the non mol.

Last weeken I decided to end all contact but my 10 year old daughter could not understand and I didn't handle it well. I told her T had a girlfriend and i wasnt coping with it. She was angry with him but still wanted to see him. So I changed my mind and he came over. But we argued and he left just as my daughter was getting used to everything being ok again. I asked him to come back but he wouldnt and iwe ended up going over to where he lives and all going out for dinner. The weekend ended really happily but what a mess altogether for my poor kids!

However that was before I started to realise he may be BPD. Having found out more about the lying I am looking at him in a different light. My daughter loves spending time with him, he gives her huge amounts of attention, takes her shopping, all the things that her father, who she lives with 50% does not do enough of. BUT she's only really had all this for 3 months so I think it would be better for her to go no contact now but I need to explain it in a way she can cope with. My son isn't as involved with it all and has a very strong relationship with his dad. He gets on fine with T but is much more cautious.

T's anger is out of control again right now and he also said an anti Muslim thing to the kids. After he had gone they said that's not that's not the T they know. I am thinking I can say that he isn't being very nice, that he continued to say racist stuff to me and I had to break contact with him. I'm not Muslim but we live in a very mixed area and don't tolerate anything like that.

Of course his 'new partner''s daughter's father is a Muslim. How worrying is that situation.

How can I handle this the best way for my daughter? She just got a mobile for her birthday and had his number. She deleted it when I told her about the girlfriend but now things are ok again as she thinks, I think she will ask me for it back again soon.

[Rose1]

To be totally blunt, no contact - you or your kids. End of story. They will get over it. Keeping them around with this very obviously dysfunctional situation is a poor example to them. There is nothing in this behaviour you want them to end up modelling I assume so keep them away from it. I also question getting involved with his exw and child - given his lying you really have no idea what their relationship is like except for the inappropriate behaviour you have witnesses which appears to be his bad behaviour. Getting into the middle of it is a recipe for disaster and one you may live to regret. His marriage and child custody/visitation arrangements are between him and his wife. If they need a mediator then someone not emotionally involved is the appropriate person.

Don't make life harder for yourself than it already is. If you read about relationships here with a BPD then you will see that I am not exaggerating when I say run and run fast and far.

Rose

[maria1]

Thanks for replying. I'm still not sure he is BPD though? Maybe me just trying to make excuses for myself! Whatever it's pretty disfunction though and just writing it makes me realise it's a horrible situation I have exposed mu children to. I mediated because no one else could and I saw a man desperately needing to see his son and, more importantly, a son needing to see his dad. It worked until T's anger took over again.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[Rose1]

Of course = we do things with good intentions and they can backfire. The trick is knowing when to stop. If you read your post again, as if by a third person and think for example if a friend of yours was in this situation, what advice would you give? And then consider seriously applying your advice.

Sorry to be so blunt but in this situation you are not too involved as yet and can get out. It doesn't matter what he is, he is a very poor associate and example.

[maria1]

I am definitely out of it with him, whether BPD or not and your reply really helps, bluntness is what is needed sometimes. I wonder what you think of my way of handling it with her though? Saying he is unwell may just have her worrying about him and can pull her back toward the situation. Saying he became not very nice with the racist angle and having a girlfriend while going on about how much he loves me and how beautiful I am all the time may be easier to cope with for her in the long run?

[Rose1]

Tell her that he is doing some things that you do not approve of and that do not fit in with the values of the family (age appropriate) and that therefore you no longer consider him to be a friend. You can tell her he may also have something wrong with him that has caused lots of problems for him, his exwife, his children and you, and that you hope he will get some help to get better but that many people don't and that this is their choice.

If you have a religious belief it is often good to quote a higher authority to children who will then understand that we are keeping values we believe in.

Code:

(1 Corinthians 15:33) 33 Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. . .

has been a good standby in our household - some people should not be associated with as they cause damage to the family.
Take care
Rose

[maria1]

Thank you. We are not religious but have strong moral codes. Thank you for your support. If any body else can advise I would really appreciate some more perspectives?

[j's friend]

Hi Maria1 I have to agree with Rose1 that NC is the way to go with this man.
As I understand it, for the past year you have been involved in "caretaking" this man  and trying to sort out his life. There is no way that you should be in the positon of playiing mediatior between he and his ex wife.  If they cant sort out visitation between themselves then thats what lawyers are there for. You are not responsible for this.pwBPD will often try to use us nons in triangulation on their behalf and draw us into their drama, but you need to leave this role behind . Your dd is lacking the attention from close r/s from a male figure, but this man is not a good role model for her. Would your exh be able to spend more time doing things with your dd that she enjoys? Have you spoken to him about this?. It is so important for young girls to have the right attention from their fathers as they may seek it in more destructive ways when they get older.

T's anger is out of control again right now and he also said an anti Muslim thing to the kids. After he had gone they said that's not that's not the T they know. I am thinking I can say that he isn't being very nice, that he continued to say racist stuff to me and I had to break contact with him.

This man has shown his emotional immaturity to you and is unpredictable around your kids. You say that you are pretty sure that he has never expressed his anger infront of his son, but believe me kids pick up on the non verbal stuff too.Your ex,s behaviour sounds just too eractic to be around and I wouldnt take the chance with my childrens emotional wellbeing.3 months is enough time for your children to get confused by his behaviour it would seem. I always say that the longer we are around pwBPD is the quicker we pick up on it. Your children know that something isnt right with this man. They can see his splitting and dysregulation and are confused and probably scared by it. Now is definatley the time to get out of this r/s while not too much harm has been done.  I would just explain to your children that your ex has said and done some things that you dont agreed with and that sometimes friendships just dont work out. using  his anger, and the racist comments he has made which they have witnessed as examples. Other than that I wouldnt mention his lies or anything else as I think your children are too young to go into detail about these things.

[Rose1]

Well put. Strong family moral codes are excellent. Consistency in this area is very important for children so the message that the behaviour of your ex is not in line with your family values is necessary for a child to understand that you hold your values as important. If for example you keep contact lite for her benefit (not suggesting you are contemplating this) the message you will send is that we have strong family values that we talk about but do not live and it is ok for a child to associate with someone who does not fit in with the family values.
Kids need consistency (quite difficult in real life and requires effort) and a safe port in a storm. That applies particularly from this age onward. As they stretch their wings during adolescence, consistency at home may be fought against but it is highly valued even if they never tell you about it. My D27 has confirmed a lot of this over the years.

Take care
Rose

[KateCat]

maria1,

It sounds as though your strong values are going to triumph over this situation and that you are really taking on board the excellent advice you've already received on this thread.

Here's a part of your post that initially caught my eye, because to me it reads like a nutshell of what your life will be like if you continue trying to help this man and his family:

He was hospitalised and on Xmas day I left my 2 children ( now 10 and 7 ) to spend time with him.

From what you're writing here now, I'm confident you are going to turn away from further attempts to save this fellow, for your children's sake. Good for you.

[Matt]

Hi Maria!

I think you are getting great suggestions from your new friends here.  Everybody's situation is unique, but lots of us here have experiences with some of the same patterns you are seeing, and it all points toward distance - either literally no contact, or a very distant acquaintance, like seeing him in the grocery store and saying hi - you don't have to run and hide - but nothing more than that.

It will be hard for the kids but they will adjust very quickly if you are consistent.  When we've had big changes - like when I separated from their mom after 10 years of marriage - there were a few very bad weeks, when all my kids acted out in different ways.  But I quickly established a "new normal" - different than before but consistent going forward - and within several weeks they were all find, and now, five years later, they are still doing very well.  Think of it as a loss - we all lose people during our lives, for various reasons, and it hurts, but we move on.  This shouldn't be as bad as the death of a loved one - he's not dead, and he's not a member of the family - but it will be a loss for you all anyway, and it will be normal for each of you to grieve a little, in your own ways.  Watch for that - denial, arguing, etc. - and support the kids in the ways that each of them need.  And then move on.

You'll probably never know whether he has BPD or not, and I can understand that you are curious about that.  Knowing that he has it would let you figure things out, by reading more about BPD and talking more with us here.  But his behaviors are what they are - and there are some pretty clear patterns even though some specifics might not be clear - and you have to deal with those behaviors, whatever causes them.  If you found out tomorrow that he doesn't have BPD, that wouldn't fix the behaviors.  The good news is, whatever he has, if he gets a diagnosis and the right kind of treatment, it helps most people a lot.  The bad news is, it's not likely that he will choose to get a diagnosis and stay with the treatment for long enough to matter - most people with disorders like this never do - so you can't assume that his behavior will ever change.

Several red flags here that I'm sure I don't need to tell you about - multiple relationships at the same time, telling you very flattering things, overdose(s), high conflict with his ex, etc.  Any one episode might be explained away - he can say that someone is lying, and that might be right - but the whole pattern is not a stable one for the kids to be around.  They would not benefit from having someone like that in their lives, and these are ages that are very critical for them.  (My youngest is 13 now, and things are a little easier - his own personality is more set so I think he's less vulnerable.  He handles his BPD mom very well now.)

You don't need to make a big drama out of it if you decide to get some distance.  You can just tell him, I like you but I decided it's best for the kids to focus on them right now, so let's not see each other anymore.  You can wish him well.  But whatever you decide - if it's completely no contact, or something milder - make it clear - set it as a boundary - and then maintain that boundary.  If he does not respect it, you have the option of a restraining order - costs nothing and is probably easy to get.  You may not want to do that but it's an option if you need to.

[maria1]

Thank you all so much for the support here. I am only just starting to come to terms with this. Only a few weeks ago I believed everything he told me, it has been helpful to uncover some real lies and to focus on some specific behaviour that is not acceptable to me.

Right now I'm hovering between feeling stupid and feeling strong that I am able to pick myself up and get out before I get in any deeper. But I'm also grieving the end of a very overwhelming love affair. I think no contact is probably the only way. I owe him money (see my other post) and I need to work out a way through that which I feel is morally right for me. I have paid him a huge amount which I maybe didn't owe him in the first place.

He used to say to me 'you'll never find anyone who'll love you like I will you know'; even after he ended the relationship and I knew he was seeing someone else.

Well, I truly hope that I never do!

[Matt]

The money:

Money goes back and forth in relationships.  If you gave him a lot before, maybe you don't have any obligation now.  But if you decide that it is right to pay him back, you can tell him one time what you will do, and then do it:

"I owe you $200.  I will pay you $20 from each of my paychecks til you are paid off.  I will send a check to your address at XXX twice a month.  Do not contact me about this - it is not negotiable - but it is a commitment I am making to you."

Then do it.  Don't let it be a way for him to stay in touch with you - just send the money until it's paid and that will be that.

[maria1]

He bought me a car the day he attempted suicide. He said he had to see me right before he checked out. I felt morally obliged to pay him back so got a bank loan I can't afford. I couldn't get a loan for the full amount. I felt obliged to keep the car, that I would upset him if I didn't.

He didn't argue with me paying him back but, to be fair, always said he didn't want the money if I couldn't afford it right now. I think he knew I couldn't cope with owing him that amount though. It felt wrong.

When I tried to break contact with him a week ago, I set up an arrangement just as you suggest. Now I'm realising how much I have been lied to and possibly manipulated I am wondering if I am being silly for even thinking I should pay back the last 1500 of this money. The remaining money is for a trip to the states he booked that he still thought we should go on as 'friends', despite him acting hurtfully toward me, setting up with new partner so quickly and my finding out about lies.

I think my only choice is to rise above my resentment and pay him back for the next 2 years by direct debit with no contact. I won't feel like I've taken advantage of the situation then.

[Matt]

People whose thinking is twisted sometimes make simple things very complicated, so it's hard to figure out what's right.

In my normal life, it's not hard to figure out right and wrong.  But when I was dealing every day with my ex, sometimes things got so complicated I wondered if I had done the right thing.

The deal with the car is a classic example.  He created the situation, entirely for his reasons - you didn't ask him for the car!  But he has you feeling obligation - one of the big three we call the FOG - fear, obligation, and guilt.  (I think you have some of all three!)

Whatever you decide is right, if you then do that, you will be doing your best.  Don't let him get inside your head anymore, and make you doubt yourself.  The situation with the car and other stuff is now complicated, so all you can do is sort it out the way you think is right, and act accordingly.  And then in the future, notice anybody trying to manipulate you like this, into taking on obligations that you haven't really chosen for your own reasons.

[maria1]

Thank you- that is very helpful and very clear. All these things that felt wrong but I stayed in it for fear of losing him, probably because of previous loss and because I felt we had a connection that was worth fighting for. I believed above all that he was a good person. I cannot now believe he is bad, just disordered and that is sad.

Before I realised about BPD I thought he was showing me these dark and hurtful behaviours to set me free somehow because he knows how damaged he is. I still feel in some way that he has done that. It helps me to have hope that he may help himself one day.

I need to make my own order now and I will be stronger for that.

Thank you for your advice and support, it really makes a difference.

[Matt]

We are taught when we're small - through stories, for example - that some people are good and some are bad.  As adults, this "black/white" thinking can steer us wrong.

The reality is, there are good and bad behaviors, but I don't know if there are any all-good people or all-bad people.

My ex's mother died when she was a baby, and her father drank a lot and was not able to raise her or her sisters.  So he sent them to live with relatives, who were a different race, in a different state.  They were nice but treated the girls like guests, not family.  The girls did not understand all this, and I'm sure my ex felt abandoned, confused, and afraid.

Those are the feelings in a child that often lead to BPD in an adult.  My ex didn't choose to have BPD, and her parents didn't choose to have the problems that kept them from raising her the best way.

As an adult, I can wish her well, and in the past I tried to help her, but in the end I really can't make her choose to get the help she needs.  Most people with BPD don't choose to get help.

Unfortunately sometimes the best we can do is to protect ourselves and our kids, and wish the other party well.  Trying to fix them does more harm than good.

[maria1]

My ex saw his father be repeatedly violent toward his mother before leaving when he was 6 years old, never to come back or be in touch again. It was never discussed in the family apparently. I think I know that he is BPD but I worry that it is an easy 'out' for examining our own responsibilties and choices in a relationship. I know this website doesn't do this but I am just being very cautious that it's not something I now do.

He has just texted to say he has sent me back my keys as I requested and that he can't be in touch with my children as I had asked him to consider. I asked him that before I decided he was BPD and posted on this forum. I am now clear that no contact with my children is best so the way forward seems very clear now. I respect him for respecting my wishes and hopefully I have had a lucky and early escape from all this.

[maria1]

How naive was I? Half an hour later and I was getting texts telling me to pay the money back. I set out what I'd said about paying back the money but no that was no good I should sell it. Then I asked him to leave me be, he kept on. Said I didn't care what he threatened me with just to leave me be. I think this is classic re- engagement?

Well once I'd made it clear I wanted him to leave me alone and take me to court if he didn't likel my plan I got that I was a twisted nasty person, just like his ex wife, that he didn't deserve any of this. That I just couldn't cope that he was with someone else now.

Next it was 'goodbye.. I really love you...remember me when you are buying such and such... I'm a good person... You'll never see me again... Without my son it's all pointless' and so on' I asked if he was suicidal by text. No reply

I rang the out of hours doctor and told the assessor the content of the texts. They rang him but he didn't pick up. I rang him and got a mixture of abuse, why are you being like this and what have I done to deserve this.

I re-engaged totally of course but with an argument. Said I couldn't stand the lies, him telling me he loves me whilst seeing this other woman. He says the other woman is gone. He did what I'd said and blew her out. So there is nobody now.

And he is desperately missing his son. And I am torn. Don't want a relationship, can't trust him. Am worried that he has pushed everyone else away. He has quite a lot of awareness of some of his behaviour. He used to refer to me as the last one standing. Anyway he has now said by text he will prove me wrong and get through this (regaining contact with his son) with the help of good people. I said good that's what I want, let's leave each other be. He then texted he's spoken to the dr and could I keep all texts and emails from his ex wife.

I've said yes but I know it means I'll have to have contact. Maybe I can look at setting boundaries and not having any contact with my kids? Getting lost again but feel bad turning my back on him