had another BPD night with my 9 year old

[Think About It....]

OMG

This morning I am soo sad.

HAd another BPD night with d9 last night.

what we used to call "tantrum"...

is it an extinction burst.

I have been pretty leanient lately. Lowered my expectations, lotsa love.

NO CRITRICIZING and trying to Validate her experience.

This reduced the number and intensity of the "tantrums " tremendously.

This has been a slightly stressful week. More on MY plate than usual.

I only see d9 after school and weekends.
She wants to spend all her trime with friends and NEVER ground at home.

Resists down time. wants constant stimulation, and RESISTS down time like an adult addict.

wants sugar,tv,games and playdates.
I realize this is age appropriate, but...

the tantrums and the lengths she will go ARE NOT

When she gets mad. I am in the room with someone who sounds like an angry 52 year old barmaid.

I have 3 grown children, raised other peoples kids, have grandkids, I am a nurse and a midwife, I KNOW what is NORMAL.

she never has been.
I live in the boonies, and I mean the boonies.
In rural rural village hours from the nearest walmart

12 hours from VAncouver or calgary...the nearest help.

so there is none.

UBPD Dad is in denial and a DOCTOR. who has controlled her access to Health care, evals . basically she has seen very little.

The counseling is foofy, art therapy, by locals... community services ...

they are all enmeshed with UBPD dad, politically and I need su[port.

Last night d9 pulled out a handful of hair and this is about the 4th episode of the ripping her hair out.

I am just starting with a new lawyer in my divorce process.

Anybody have a kid like this?

I am so scared to go over to the parents of BPD board, I am barely surviving the realityThat Im out of his grasp.

I am extremely accepting and loving and baby her during these bursts, If i leave the room, she damages everything and will rip a room apart.

she requires physicall restraint which eventually she leans into and allows herself to be soothed.

But I am doing the soothing, and I cannot imagine doing this with a teen, ALONE.

[nona]

OMG

This morning I am soo sad.

HAd another BPD night with d9 last night.

what we used to call "tantrum"...

is it an extinction burst.

I have been pretty leanient lately. Lowered my expectations, lotsa love.

NO CRITRICIZING and trying to Validate her experience.

This reduced the number and intensity of the "tantrums " tremendously.

This has been a slightly stressful week. More on MY plate than usual.

I only see d9 after school and weekends.
She wants to spend all her trime with friends and NEVER ground at home.

Resists down time. wants constant stimulation, and RESISTS down time like an adult addict.

wants sugar,tv,games and playdates.
I realize this is age appropriate, but...

the tantrums and the lengths she will go ARE NOT

When she gets mad. I am in the room with someone who sounds like an angry 52 year old barmaid.

I have 3 grown children, raised other peoples kids, have grandkids, I am a nurse and a midwife, I KNOW what is NORMAL.

she never has been.
I live in the boonies, and I mean the boonies.
In rural rural village hours from the nearest walmart

12 hours from VAncouver or calgary...the nearest help.

so there is none.

UBPD Dad is in denial and a DOCTOR. who has controlled her access to Health care, evals . basically she has seen very little.

The counseling is foofy, art therapy, by locals... community services ...

they are all enmeshed with UBPD dad, politically and I need su[port.

Last night d9 pulled out a handful of hair and this is about the 4th episode of the ripping her hair out.

I am just starting with a new lawyer in my divorce process.

Anybody have a kid like this?

I am so scared to go over to the parents of BPD board, I am barely surviving the realityThat Im out of his grasp.

I am extremely accepting and loving and baby her during these bursts, If i leave the room, she damages everything and will rip a room apart.

she requires physicall restraint which eventually she leans into and allows herself to be soothed.

But I am doing the soothing, and I cannot imagine doing this with a teen, ALONE.

[Parrot Pill]

Oh hugs. It is so hard to watch your child go through what is clearly not normal behavior and feel so unsupported. My d8 is probably not BPD (?) but she is high anxiety, very intense, and very strong/willed. You sound like you know what you are dealing with and know that you need support. But in your situation it is hard to get.
The two best things I know are to take good care of yourself and try the approach described in the book Transfirming the Difficult Child by Glasser. I am working with a child psych who is guiding/coaching me through the approach. It is helping a lot, though we still have flare ups. Nothing like the knock down drag out tantrums we were having before, though. It is a lot of work but parenting an intense child is a lot of work no matter what.

Good luck to you in finding a way to improve your situation. It sounds to me like you are doing really well considering the challenges you face

PP

[Rose1]

My youngest had amazing tantrums so I sympathise, and no they weren't "normal". She could keep them going for over an hour. Was worse from age 18 months to 4 at which point she was assessed with primary speech language impairment. Some of this was frustration but some of this is common to kids with SLI which is part of the autism spectrum. Now if your D is verbal and mine wasn't, this is unlikely to be the problem. However my D also has juvenile onset bi polar - inherited from her BPDf who has been diagnosed with bi polar as well as BPD - quite a common combination. Anger, especially at no or overstimulation, screaming and damaging stuff are all common. My D23 now was especially difficult during the teen years which I was told to expect but knowing and dealing with it are two different things.  She was at a special school for kids with SLI and bad behaviour always had consequences and I was expected to follow through at home. Time out was initially very difficult but became the only thing that worked as it reduced her audience.  She has been medicated since about age 5 for epilepsy and the medication works for bi polar as well so we have a win win. However during her teens she developed anxiety disorder as well and we did a trial of some ssri's which made things worse - not uncommon as it brings on manic behaviour. We had a tough time between 17 and 19. BTW I was a single parent from the time she was 6. Her psychologist at school recommended further evaluation at about the same age your D is now.

You may benefit from the book "The bi polar child"  http://bipolarchild.com/ and the website - not saying this is what is wrong but the book may help exclude things as well.  In our situation with children who are children of BPD's there is quite often something else going on. My exBPDh was in complete denial too since the obvious is it was inherited from him and his mother but in my D's case it was pretty obvious from early on because of not developing normal speech and seizure activity - hard to ignore. Poor kid has quite a cocktail. But the good news is we have found a medication level (had to come down from her growth spurts during her teens) and herbal/vitamin supports plus developing maturity, that means she is currently almost tantrum free, anxiety and spasms have lessened and she is doing pretty well.

One thing I do know - if we had not had consequences for her behaviour at age 9, teenage difficulties would have been considerably worse. As it was I had some control over her. If I had no control at all and she had been allowed to damage things or hurt people without consequences, I would not have been able to manage her during her teens. As it was I had to resort to valium medication on a number of occasions to sedate her. I was very grateful for the advice I got when she was younger.

During one of the lectures I went to there was discussion around a 21 year old young man with autism who had a blue fetish. Everything he went into the shops he wanted some blue underwear or he would throw a tantrum. It got to the point where the shop staff were laying out blue undies as he walked through the door.  The lecturer pointed out that this behaviour had been going on since he was about 2 and what what maybe cute and acceptable at 2 certainly wasn't at 21 but the controls needed to be in place from the age of 2 not when he was 21. Not new information for anyone who has brought up kids but children with these sort of disabilities (and I image for their BPD parents as well) consistency and consequences are more important than normal kids.  Unfortunately the turmoil of BPD world is contraindicated but sometime you have not a lot of choice.

Hope things improve
Rose

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[Rose1]

Forgot to add - when she was in her teens she had already had quite a lot training in self soothing, calming down etc which did help a lot in shortening the tantrums. I was advised to film her during her tantrums and play it back later for her when she was calm so that she could actually see the behaviour. It actually worked to some extent - she didn't like what she saw and as soon as the camera came out often slowed down or got it under control in 10 minutes.  Not always. Also had to keep clear of her as she was more than capable of damaging the camera during filming.

[momtario]

It's abig problem that real help is so far away. Are you in a legal position where you could uproot and move to the city if you had to in a few years, or does her father have to agree?

I am fairly certain that if that time comes, you could get court orders to say that it's best for her.

It's a bit extreme, but help is help, and her teen years may be the last time you have to influence whether or not she gets treated (if this is BPD and not something else).

My D8 also takes pretty severe tantrums, and I am trying to use the tools to help lessen them, and over the summer when I have her at home, I plan to teach her the skills on the DBT self help website. Perhaps you could try this with your D9 as well?  

[nona]

I was pretty upset when I wrote this.

prayed and had a spontaneous with the local community kids T...

we had  a little visit and she has the power to recommend a psych eval without "diagnosis/labeling"

the T also pointed out she doesnt think a kid with these behaviors should be on 7 on 7 off visitation.

too much change!

now how to get this translated to the courts!

[Rose1]

Understandably so. I was always very shaken after a major screaming episode. The T sounds like she might be ok. She is correct in that 7 on 7 off doesn't actually give a child with issues time enough to process the change. Change by itself is very difficult for these kids to manage, never mind the disordered chaos that is most homes with a BPD in them. I wonder if she recommended it and you were in some sort of evaluation with your D whether a court would order them to continue? Could be a good thing.

[Lotusflower]

The gift is that your child is nine and not 35 like my daughter, and that this illness is now being understood and has a name. Don't try and fix this because you won't. We are limited as parents and haven't the skills therapist specializing in borderline personality disorder has. Get help and stay with it. This forum is good and supportive however it is not the same as seeing someone physically. I only wished I knew what my daughter had early on. She doesn't speak to us (she's been disappearing for years), and I grew up with a mother who has this awful illness. I wish you the best and give yourself the permission to enjoy your life despite this situation. Give it the the professional and of couse learn the coping skills on how to co- exist with your child.

Good luck.

[BentNotBroken]

I am not a Dr. --but if you read the criteria for BPD there is no way a 9 year old could be BPD. It falls outside the diagnostic criteria by a mile. I would suggest contacting a pediatrician and talking with him/her about the behavior issues and ways of dealing with them. If you actually find a doctor/therapist that diagnoses your 9 year old with BPD I would run like hell to someone else, because they obviously don't know what they are talking about.

[nona]

Of course my 9 year old child is not in the DSM

However her biological father has all 9 criteria.

As a child he was NOT NEUROTYPICAL.
D9 , as a child has been NOT NEUROTYPICAL. (UBPDDADDYDOCTOR has prevented her from being seen by anyone.)

The behaviors she exhibits at this time fall under the category ANXIETY, and ANGER.

which could be neurotypical for her situation.

D9 will be evaluated. The psychiatrist who sees kids here does not create a "diagnosis", for many reasons.
British Columbia, ya know, harm reduction country, etc. etc, they pussyfoot around about everything.

Im looking for tools from these people, tools for a life for d9 and me. to LIVE and LOVE and LAUGH.
And support to get her to a more stable access arrangement.

if some kind of diagnosis would get her and me the tools and support and stability we need, I would welcome it!

In fact going to marsha linehams site right now...As I can access seattle sometimes this summer.

thanks everyone
cheers

HAppy FAther's Day!

[Auspicious]

Of course my 9 year old child is not in the DSM

She could possibly be diagnosed with something in the DSM. My ten year old child is, and has been for I don't know how many years.

The former reluctance to "label" kids with psychiatric disorders is starting to fade - slowly - because these are medical problems, and it makes sense to diagnose and treat them.


From long experience with dealing with a mentally ill spouse and child ... I feel for you!  It can be so draining ... take so much out of you.

I would seek all the help that you can, and not worry about "labeling". I don't mind when one of my children is "labeled" as having bronchitis, because that means they know what is wrong and have a methodology to treat it. To treat mental issues differently is to self-create our own "stigma".

[nona]

The "not labeling" thing is B.C. not me.

Part of their harm reduction style, I'm guessing.

Especially with "high conflict families", it's a quieter route.

They like quiet here. (I'm guessing it's a brit thing)
Being an AMERICAN, I don't get that kind of "quiet".  LOL!

And less triggering to BPDdoctordad, yikes!

At least d9 will be getting some of the true issues addressed FINALLY.

and again, TOOLS for us. I need tools.

Seriously persuing some time in Seattle this summer to access some training !

[Rose1]

Absolutely - I found it quite a relief when D23 was labelled at 10 as possibly bi polar but definitely not BPD. We know something is wrong and kids with mental illnesses do not always suddenly develop them in their teens. In fact if you talk to people with mental illness they nearly always had a difficult childhood so imo it makes sense to start early.

Rose

[Rise]

Resists down time. wants constant stimulation, and RESISTS down time like an adult addict.

wants sugar,tv,games and playdates.
I realize this is age appropriate, but...

I only throw this out there from personal experience... any chance this is simply ADHD?

This breaks my heart hearing your situation. What makes this all worse is the fact that the earlier your daughter is treated for any sort of condition, the easier her life is going to be. Your husband standing in the way is only going to make things worse for her in the long run. If he really thinks that there is nothing wrong with her, then he shouldn't have a problem with having her evaluated. But I guess it's asking a bit much to expect logical thinking from an illogical mind.

[AnotherPhoenix]

 Hi!

Nona, I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's outburst. I hope things are better now. I've had them with my S7. He still tests me with them from time to time, but they don't last long now.

In the last couple of months, the tantrums didn't happen very much and seemed more like tests. But last week, I got a real tantrum. Biggest one in many, many months. I've been hearing clues from my BPDwife that he's been acting out more at her place. Recently, she told me that he was acting out a LOT more at her place. Before she brought him over, she had given him a "consequence" and did yell at him. So, I wonder if something happened at your ex's place?

I think your T's suggestion about 7on/7off will help a lot. Could you and your ex can make an agreement through your lawyers so you don't have to go through the court?

Resists down time. wants constant stimulation, and RESISTS down time like an adult addict.

wants sugar,tv,games and playdates.
I realize this is age appropriate, but...

I only throw this out there from personal experience... any chance this is simply ADHD?

To me, it sounds like a major case of BPD "fleas". It sounds like there might be some ADHD in there too. If she is getting much more than normal amount of these things at her father's, then she will come to expect it more than normal. Plus, her father is probably not being a good role model. She's probably also used to her father fixing things for her and letting her get away with things, which makes it even harder for her to deal with not having these things.  My experience is that if you consistantly stick to rules, with compassion, and explain your reasons to your daughter, she will get much better about not wanting these things over time. She will learn how to cope without them, which is a great lesson in life.

Wanting playdates might be because it gives her a chance to get a break from her anxiety or the divorce situation.

By downtime, I'm assuming that you mean things like playing with her toys by herself, resting, or going to bed/sleep at night. My S7 resists downtime like the plague with my BPDwife, but he does very well with it at my Apt. Having a schedule for these downtimes that is as consistent as possible throughout the week, and then being very firm about enforcing them  helps my S7 a lot with handling downtime without fuss. Letting him read in bed or listen to an audiobook helps him with rest time. For going to bed, we read together on the couch for about 15 minutes, then he reads by himself for about 30 minutes, then "lights-out" at 8:00. Last year, he would start nodding off while I was reading to him. He doesn't do that so much now, except for my first night of my partenting time. The reading on the couch also give us lots of snuggling time.

The tantrums you described seem to be typical with children of a BPDparent when the parents separate. I've read of several other spouses of BPDparents who experienced this, almost exactly like nona described. S7 did too, at first quite frequently, but with decreasing frequencey with each custody period. S7 would say many things during these outbursts, frequently trying to hurt my feelings. I didn't respond and ignored them emotionall, but what he said gave me clues about what might be the real cause of his outbursts. Here are what I thought were the biggest reasons for his outbusts:

• Getting out BPD "poison". S7's BPDmom causes S7 a lot of anguish in a lot of ways. Mood swings, inconsistent parenting, insecurity, frustration, low self-esteem, etc. Each week, S7's behavior has gotten noticeably better each week of custody. The last several weeks of custody have been especially good with him, and it keeps getting better. (With BPDwife, his behavior has been getting worse for her during these same periods. I sometimes get concerned about what goes on over there.)
• BPD alienation tactics. These were wicked at the beginning. My wife still does them. I've been using anti-alienation tactics that I've read about in these forums.
• Being used to getting his way with his mom, either becuase of the BPDparent's permissiveness, or because of the BPDparent not following through. My BPDwife used to just "give in" with S7 because she didn't know what to do.
• Being tired. There were many times when S7 acted hyper or silly the first evening or even the next day of my parenting time. That is one of the mains signs that S7 is tired.

High anxiety is very common with children with a BPDparent! Extreme permissiveness and overprotectiveness typically results in children being anxious and not learning how to deal with emotions like anxiety frustration. Throw in a BPD's mental games, chaotic behavior, moods, chaotic parenting, inconsistent consequences. Now through in separation or divorce, another typically high anxiety time for children. Now, let's add parental alienation tactics, which creates more anxiety.

Something that I did that seemed to help S7 a lot with his anxiety was to buy some books on divorce written for children and "Umbrella for Alex". I read them to him and discussed them with him. I was surprised by how much they helped him! I knew they would help him some, but seemed to make a noticeable difference in his anxiety. At first, he wanted us to read them several times a week, and he took them to bed to read almost every night. He still reads them from time to time. I can see how these books would still be good for a 9 or 10 year-old who was insecure about the divorce. Here are the divorce books:
Dinosaurs Divorce
Two Homes
Was It the Chocolate Pudding?: A Story For Little Kids About Divorce (S7 liked this a lot!)

To fight the alienation, I bought the DVD "Welcome Back, Pluto: Understanding, Preventing, and Overcoming Parental Alienation", then S7 and I watched it and discussed it after every chapter. He really listed to it.

Your daughter will also get used to learning two sets of rules. My BPDwife and I have two very different living environments and sets of rules. She is very permissive about junk food, has a Wii, cable television, etc., and S7 gets to spend a lot of time with them. My wife also is a junk food, TV, and Wii addict. I am much more conservative than the norm about things like junk food, and possibly TV/electronis. In my apartment, there is almost no junk food, sugar, I only have an old nintendo, and he usually only gets to watch 45 minutes of TV per day. "Lights out is at 8:00, and I have S7 take rest for 30 minutes in the afternoon on Saturdays and Sundays." I thought S7 would have big difficulties handling the extreme differences, but he seldom says anything about it. I've also read several other postings in these forums that children can learn to adjust to two very different sets of rules.

I have read many times that having 1 stable parent or close adult to help them is the biggest factor in coping with a BPD parent.

Hoping today is better for you,

AnotherPheonix
   

[Forgetmenot]

My ex husband has undiagnosed BPD.  His wild rages over nothing were out of control and he would not seek help.  So after 10 years we divorced.

My 17D has bipolar and BPD.  She is not being treated because dad tells her I am trying to poison her and there isn't anything wrong.  Rock and a hard place.

I can tell you this.  When I look back at her even as an infant, those traits were there.  I could never put her down.  Constantly had to hold her, even while making dinner. Had to take her in the shower with me.  As she got to age3-4, she never would watch TV.  Needed constant attention.  Never napped.  Had trouble getting along at daycare.  Would rage at the other kids.  She would suddenly "hate" a person for no particular reason.  Even as a toddler.  Trying to teach her to write her alphabet would end with her yellling at me and telling me that I was doing it wrong.  3rd grade I realized that she couldn't comprehend reading.  She still can't at 17...I think this is a separate issue.  Early teen years...can't tolerate any sudden changes.  A trip to the grocery store cancelled because of snow...meltdown.  Can't tolerate me being "away".  Out of town overnight will undoubtably cause some kind of dramatic chaos requiring me to get home as soon as possible.  The separation anxiety as a 16 year old was unbearable.  Constantly texting me...when are you coming home...then meeting me in the driveway.

I have no idea how to help her now.  She is 17 and I can't force her to take meds.  Dad denies any problems.  He never has her long enough to see it anyway.

Sorry you are going though such a rough time with your child.  You aren't going crazy.  Your instinct as a mother is almost always correct.  Here is a link that might help you?

http://www.keepingkidshealthy.org/topics/borderline/