Best interest of children vs safety and giving in to bullying

[Think About It....]

I have been away for a while but have a dilemma I would appreciate opinions on.

Long story very short, separated 4 1/2 years, have children's orders but back in court to change them as he has relocated and his work circumstances have changed.

The usual BPD behaviour of bullying, threats, intimidation, lies, making agreements that are broken etc etc etc.  You all know the score.

He has a lot of money and wants to take the children  on an overseas holiday to USA (we are in Australia).  At court mediation a year ago I agreed to him taking kids to Bali but with some provisos about the return of the passports to me and that he will cover any medical costs arising from illness or injury while they are with him.  (he is earning a packet and I am earning only an average wage, he won out big time in the property settlement because I caved in in regards to orders for the children - so he has absolutely no money problems).

I have documentation from the mediation as it was reportable showing his agreed to these things.  He never ever signed the agreement, surprise surprise.

I have asked for the same agreement for this next trip and in fact want some very specific orders around this for the future as no doubt he will want to take them overseas again.

He is not agreeing. 

Here is my dilemma - do I give in for the sake of the children so they can get their holiday or do I stick to my guns.  I am developing anxiety again over this and I do worry he won't return the passports.  I am being bullied and threatened once more.

Giving in to him is the usual adage of give an inche he will take a 100000 miles.  What do I do.  Do I disappoint the children and stop them having a holiday because he is an a***hole who wont sign something he already agreed (by pursuasion on the mediator who did a very good job and getting him to be a bit reasonable).  Or do I 'give in' and worry abuot the passports and what happens if they get a bad illness and I have to take time off work and pay for it all.  And if I cave in this time it will only get worst next time.  this is not to mention the arguements we will have over suitcases, who provides the clothes etc.

I don't want to do the wrong thing by the children but neither do I want to put them and myself in a difficult position financially and without the passports being returned.  I don't want to give in to a liar and a bully.

Advice appreciated.

[larissap]

I have been away for a while but have a dilemma I would appreciate opinions on.

Long story very short, separated 4 1/2 years, have children's orders but back in court to change them as he has relocated and his work circumstances have changed.

The usual BPD behaviour of bullying, threats, intimidation, lies, making agreements that are broken etc etc etc.  You all know the score.

He has a lot of money and wants to take the children  on an overseas holiday to USA (we are in Australia).  At court mediation a year ago I agreed to him taking kids to Bali but with some provisos about the return of the passports to me and that he will cover any medical costs arising from illness or injury while they are with him.  (he is earning a packet and I am earning only an average wage, he won out big time in the property settlement because I caved in in regards to orders for the children - so he has absolutely no money problems).

I have documentation from the mediation as it was reportable showing his agreed to these things.  He never ever signed the agreement, surprise surprise.

I have asked for the same agreement for this next trip and in fact want some very specific orders around this for the future as no doubt he will want to take them overseas again.

He is not agreeing. 

Here is my dilemma - do I give in for the sake of the children so they can get their holiday or do I stick to my guns.  I am developing anxiety again over this and I do worry he won't return the passports.  I am being bullied and threatened once more.

Giving in to him is the usual adage of give an inche he will take a 100000 miles.  What do I do.  Do I disappoint the children and stop them having a holiday because he is an a***hole who wont sign something he already agreed (by pursuasion on the mediator who did a very good job and getting him to be a bit reasonable).  Or do I 'give in' and worry abuot the passports and what happens if they get a bad illness and I have to take time off work and pay for it all.  And if I cave in this time it will only get worst next time.  this is not to mention the arguements we will have over suitcases, who provides the clothes etc.

I don't want to do the wrong thing by the children but neither do I want to put them and myself in a difficult position financially and without the passports being returned.  I don't want to give in to a liar and a bully.

Advice appreciated.

[Matt]

I don't understand the passport issue.

Are you saying that you think he might take the kids out of the country and not bring them back?

What do you think will go wrong if you give in to his ideas?

[Rose1]

Hi Larissa - Do you think if he has the passports he will hold them over you if you should ever want to travel?  Also I don't think it is an issue to have him sign it - my D (now27) went to NZ with her father when she was 18. She was the responsible adult. I insisted on travel insurance and that she have her ticket on her before she went - admittedly with her because I said if I have to go over and get her should an accident happen, and take time off work etc etc there is no way I will be reimbursed and I can't afford it. No insurance/no travel.  That is a good rule in any case.  Since he has agreed to funding the trip then I would say either pay me huge amounts of child support or take responsibility and no insurance/no trip.  His agreement to pay costs of any issues is insurance for you of a sort. But I would not travel to the US without the highest level of travel insurance there is - anything can happen and medical expenses are not only hugely expensive, insurance in the US is pretty much mandatory to get into a hospital. 

The US is pretty much like here but medical insurance is not an optional extra.

Take care

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[Rose1]

And yes I do think if you keep caving in it will get worse next time. He is being the way he is because he probably didn't get his own way over something and it's payback. This will keep happening till the kids are old enough - 18. But imo that's not old enough actually, my D was 24 or so before she got enough strength up to make her point and make it stick.

[larissap]

Thanks for the responses.  Like always this is not a simple matter.

Medical:
I have the children with me for the majority of the time currently, around 300 nights.  He lives on the other side of the country so ALL medical issues I have to take the children and pay for everything.  So if they were to get ill or have an accident overseas he would drop them home (if they can travel) and I would be left footing the bill and taking all the time off work to look after them.  Travel insurance ceases the minute they come back into the country so I would be paying.  We have minimal health insurance.  He has the top health cover for the children but has refused to give me access to it (even though pursuaded in mediation and agreed - but then refused to sign).

He agreed in mediation to pay for their medical expenses if related to accident/illness while in his care but has refused to sign agreement.  We are negotiating new orders and have another court mediation in September and his proposed orders include the same clause.  however of course, he has included a clause that I pay for all medical expenses for accidents/illness when with me.  This is not the same as I am referring only to overseas travel which I will specify.  So he is just being an A**hole in refusing to sign the agreement before mediation.

Will do other posts for passports - on a different computer and can't remember how to fix it up when yo u can't tpe more than a few lines!

[Matt]

It seems reasonable to want things worked out, signed, and filed with the court before the kids are taken out of the country.

You can write your ex, "We have discussed these issues in mediation.  We need to have them agreed in writing you take the kids anywhere.  When you have signed the agreement we worked out, then I will discuss your ideas for taking the kids."  Then you don't need to do anything else - either he will sign the agreement or he won't.

If he wants to re-negotiate, you can either say, "We already worked this out and I will not re-negotiate what we already agreed to."  Or if his requests seem OK to you, you can say, "Prepare a revised document, sign and date it, and have it notarized, and send it to me, and I'll respond within 24 hours."  That way you're not opening up an open-ended discussion, you're just allowing him to put his requests in writing.  If they are OK you can sign it and file it with the court, and the issues will be closed.

In the meantime, you can talk to the kids about this, not to get them mired in the conflict, but to let them know what is happening, so they won't be too subject to your ex's alienation.  For example, you can tell them, "Your dad wants to take you to the US for vacation.  We're trying to work it out so you can go, but so far he hasn't done the proper papers so you can go.  So don't get your hopes up, but if I can make it happen I will."

[larissap]

Passports:

this once again is not simple (and I just wrote a whole lot and lost it when I tried to change the compatibility so I could type more)

Getting the passports in the first place was a hassle of course, he refused to sign them for a while and did not pay for them.  They are with me and I have never used them as he refused me permission to take the kids overseas although I then gave him permission to take them!  I want them because I have aging parents overseas and may need to take off in a hurry with one or both kids if they get sick or are dying or something.

Also he will use the passports against me in some way if he doesn't give them back.  I need them for things like school enrollments and so on (used one very recently actually).

He has agreed to hand them back in mediation and in a letter but not in orders.  I will show you what he wrote:

I will not agree to cover any costs outside of those covered by travel insurance which I confirm I will take out and notify you of the details once I have the policy.

I see absolutely no need to submit further orders to the courts, every single time I wish to take the boys away, or any further documentation as this is already covered by the current orders. However to provide you with the security that you so obviously need I am prepared to provide you with a statutory declaration that I will be returning the boys passports and cover any replacement costs if they are mislaid or lost.

Now this is a man who had a written agreement to return some nights I agreed to him having but he refused and we ended up in court on a contravention case partly because of it.  I have everything in writing and several examples with evidence of agreements he has broken.  Stat Decs are a waste of time and the only thing that will ensure the return of the passports is a legally binding document lodged with the court.

He is yanking my chain and i know what will come if I don't agree 'I have already told the boys and they will be disappointed if they can't go and it is your fault'.  he will tell them it is my fault, has done in the past when there were similar issues. 

So it is a) financial, b) about giving me back the passports and c) that if I don't I will get bullied and manipulated and blackmailed.  If I do give in he will just keep going and try more and more. 

I want the kids to go on holiday they will ahve a great time, but I need the security of the financial commitment and the return of the passports to feel comfortable agreeing. 

Rose this is definately payback because a few weeks ago he lost his contravention case because he didn't turn up but is still blaming me (I wouldn't agree to an adjourment!).  It is always payback.  It is never about the kids.  I try to do the right thing but sometimes giving in and giving in just sits in my throat and makes me sick and I know that worst will come.  I feel like I am between and rock and  a hard place (for a change! - it is always like this - but this time the kids will miss out on something good if I stick to my guns)

Sorry for the long post.

[larissap]

PS going overseas and the return of the passports is not covered at all by current orders - a very simple clause finishing with the parent being asked permission to take the kids overseas not 'unreasonably' withholding consent.  A lovely little clause that could have me back in court arguing with him what is unreasonable !  I know how this man operates now and that is not an unlikely scenario - him trying another contravention application.

hey Matt, thanks for the advice - I am at work so don't have time to write more - will do later.

[david]

I agree with Matt. Ex needs to sign things agreed to in mediation and then proceed forward. One step at a time. The ball is in his court and it is up to him to do what he already agreed to. Concerning the passports. After he signs what he agreed to sign I think a time limit for returning the passports should be agreed to. This needs to be in writing also and signed. Strong boundaries in the beginning help in the future. Trying to guilt you by saying the children will be disappointed if you refuse. You are not refusing anything, JUST SIGN THE #&^%*!^ AGREEMENT, and ex will not be disappointing the children.

[Rose1]

Hi - the thing about using the kids is blackmail and he knows it. I said to my D it would be nice for you to go to NZ but we need safeguards in place. As she was 18 already she was pretty good about it but we still have a contingency plan for her to get home by herself if necessary. It was quite likely her F could have had a snit over there and walked out on her in some place to teach her a lesson. So we had plan B.  Tough but that's the way it is and by that age she was already pretty clear on his behaviour and felt comfortable with alternate plans.

I agree with Matt - get in first. You need their father to complete paperwork. It's up to him how fast that will be and since he is making the arrangements you don't have any control over it. Once the paperwork is done and all insurances (BTW add in kids access to his health cover - that's ridiculous. If he's paying family rate they need to be able to access.) etc then the kids can go.  I think everything needs to be signed off, not just travel arrangements as you need to have everything clear before he goes overseas, that includes everything he has agreed to but not yet signed - forget the stat decs, not worth the paper they are written on. You need copies of itinerary, contact details and copies of travel insurance as well as copies of the passports signed by JP before you hand them over in case they get "lost" as well as photo duplicates. Is he organised enough to take care of things should something go wrong overseas - ie passports and tickets lost or stolen? If that should happen, get the kids back home - he can take care of himself.  . Sorry to add to this, just used to exBPDh apparently not able to organise himself out of a paper bag although that changed if he really wanted something.

[tog]

Ugh, my SO's stbxw does this all.the.time.  She would make plans on SO's day or behind his back, and then make it appear as if he was the bad guy for not giving in. She got the child admitted to a private school behind his back and then made him look uncooperative for not agreeing. He did ultimately agree, and what a nightmare that has been. Yet, if he stands up to her every time, he looks rigid.

It's the classic double bind: you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.

I guess my advice would be to weigh each factor. I know it's easy to get caught up in the power struggle and lose sight of what is important. So...if you feel strongly that the insurance/safety stuff is something you won't compromise, then don't. Will he tell the children it's your fault? Of course. But depending on how old they are, you can explain your side, like Matt said. "I know Dad says this is all my fault, but really, we weren't able to agree on some very important things that have to do with your safety so I decided that it wasn't a good idea for you to go." That's all you can do. You can't control how he will spin it to them, or what they believe.

On the other hand, if you feel like it's just a power struggle on your end for the sake of "winning" (not saying it is, I just know there are times that SO struggles with her when he should IMO, just give in), then maybe giving in is the best thing.  

You can't fight with a bully about everything.  There are times to punch a bully in the nose, and times to hand him your lunch money and walk off. The trick is figuring out which is which.

[larissap]

Hi all

thanks so much for your advice.  I have certainly taken it on board.  I had a good night's sleep last night free from the anxiety that I have had the past few nights over this matter.  

Matt - thanks for the wording and advice how to talk to kids.  I do already talk to them like that because we have encountered this problem about other things on numerous occasions.  It is just that this is a biggie - a trip to America and the theme parks - what kid wouldn't be disappointed if they couldn't go!

David - you made me laugh because you are right, he should just sign the b**dy thing as he said he would and be done with it!'

Rose - I take on board your suggestions about the passport and JP and everything and had not thought of that and I will do so.  My ex is going with his girlfriend so even though I have always done the arrangements in the past, I am sure he just handed the reins over to her!  I am not worried about them being looked and safe while there (apart from a few niggles that I can do nothing about) but there are issues of the children being able to contact me, knowing where they are etc.  In regard to his health cover, he was pursuaded (with a lot of hard work) by our mediator that he should give me his card for the children's private health cover.  He agreed.  Yeah right - same agreement as regard to the passports and other stuff - agreed in front of her but wouldn't sign and has not handed me the card.  Absolutely ridiculous - talk about power play on his part and not thinking about the kids!

Tog - thanks for getting it completely.  I struggle often with whether my resistance is just power struggles and not giving in to a bully and letting him win and what is best for the children.  We have that all the time and I find that at first I get really angry and decide I won't 'give in' and then I think about it when I have calmed down and will do what is right for the children.  For example we have no orders about pick up and drop off during school holidays as normally they fly out and I obviously take them to and from the airport otherwise they can't go.  It actually isn't in the orders but I do it anyway.  On the last occasion he picked them up from home and we got into this massive power struggle about him stating a time he would pick them up - he wouldn't specify as he was driving and didn't know how long it would take!  So I got mad and made other arrangements and said they weren't avaible until after dinner, not his 'maybe 5pm give or take'!  Long story short, he wouldn't pick them up unless it was 5pm so I gave in and dropped them at his hotel.  I could have just stuck to my guns and had him pick them up later but that really would have upset the kids.  

Same with drop off, he didn't tell me he was travelling back with them on the flight so that I would pick them up from the airport and he could save the taxi fare of dropping them back home!  When I found out he was travelling with them (not because he told me but because he didn't book unaccompanied minor fares!) he refused to bring them home and said if I didn't pick them up he would put them in a taxi and send them home alone and I would have to pay when they arrived!  Then, get this, and I laughed at this one, when I wrote something about bringing them home he told me that he 'wasn't bringing them home, he just happened to be on the same flight'!  don't you love that one.

Well I gave in this time as well and arranged to pick kids up from the pick up zone outside the airport so I didn't have to actually be in his presence, he just let the kids get in the car and skulked out of sight!

So I do know when to hand him my lunch money and walk off.  Thinking about it though this is not one of those cases for a lot of reasons and because if I do it this time he will expect my lunch money and my pocket money and my train fare next time!

I am secure in the knowledge that he already agreed in front of a court mediator and it is in writing so I am going to stick to my guns this time and deal with the children's disappointment if I have to.

Thanks again, and I forgot how much support this place can be and will be back.  I have been struggling through a court case for a contravention against me and self representing and there aren't many people outside my close network of family and friends who get how difficult this is.  You all do, and although I wouldn't wish this struggle with a BPDex on anyone, it is good to know I am not alone.

L

[Joseph54]

Your ex is brilliant at winning.

Could you, put the passports in trust with your lawyer, for him to pick up for the trip, after he signs the agreements he has already agreed to.

Then, you request that funds be placed in trust to secure the return of the passports. To be returned by a specific date.

You make amount of money large enough so he wants to get his money back, if not, it goes to you, automatically.

The other outcome is you get the passports back on time when they get back (like you want, no stress) .

If not and he does not return the passports, you get new passports and a chunk of money to soften the blow. 

That way he is in control.

It is up to him.

Joe

[larissap]

thanks for your response Joseph.  I could do all of those things but I have thought about it and don't think that much security is necessary.  I just need the reassurance he will return it and I don't really think he is a flight risk.  He would never ever agree to those sorts of terms so it is not worth asking and I do want the children to go.

The latest is that I offered to draft some orders and haven't done so yet as he had stated that he needed to confirm his leave and that wouldn't happen until end of August.  Yesterday I get an email saying it is urgent and have I done anything yet!

So I reponded that I wasn't aware of the urgency and once he confirms his availability and that he will sign consent orders I will draft something!  Let's see what response I get to that!

If only everything wasn't so hard !

[Joseph54]

Yes, they like to be in control and keep us off balance.

They make things hard and difficult in order to control and we are easier to control when off balance.

I wished I would have understood BPD earlier and not married 2 years ago.

My guess is he will stall again and express urgency.

Let me know what happens.

Joe
 

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