Being childfree and the family

[Think About It...]

I made a decision to never have a baby. The decision is very thought through, and I am sure it's what I want and what's best both for me and for any potential unborn child. I actually wish my mother would have done the same, cause she never really wanned to have a child, but she let herself influenced by the society and I am the result of that.

Many years ago when I still thought I will someday have a child, BPDmom said I'm unable to raise a child and I shouldn't even try. Now that I let her know I'll never have one, she becomes desperate to persuade me how great it is to have a baby. I don't understand.

On top of that, my father also became extremely inquisitive and he said he doesn't want to believe me and that he will keep asking when will I have a baby, untill I will have one. Wth? He even told me a lie about my current boyfriend, something to make me upset with the bf, and I think that's because my father thinks it's my bf who doesn't want kids and that he put the idea in my head. In reality I knew long before I met him that I don't want kids, and actually that was a condition sin qva non of having a relation with a guy - that he doesn't want children.

One of my father's reasons is that he became very religious, and he thinks it's a sin if a woman never has a child. I on the other hand am not religious at all, and I am very upset at how he so much wants to persuade me, using any tool at hand, including lying. Do you have any idea how I can get him to stop?

[justine1984]

I made a decision to never have a baby. The decision is very thought through, and I am sure it's what I want and what's best both for me and for any potential unborn child. I actually wish my mother would have done the same, cause she never really wanned to have a child, but she let herself influenced by the society and I am the result of that.

Many years ago when I still thought I will someday have a child, BPDmom said I'm unable to raise a child and I shouldn't even try. Now that I let her know I'll never have one, she becomes desperate to persuade me how great it is to have a baby. I don't understand.

On top of that, my father also became extremely inquisitive and he said he doesn't want to believe me and that he will keep asking when will I have a baby, untill I will have one. Wth? He even told me a lie about my current boyfriend, something to make me upset with the bf, and I think that's because my father thinks it's my bf who doesn't want kids and that he put the idea in my head. In reality I knew long before I met him that I don't want kids, and actually that was a condition sin qva non of having a relation with a guy - that he doesn't want children.

One of my father's reasons is that he became very religious, and he thinks it's a sin if a woman never has a child. I on the other hand am not religious at all, and I am very upset at how he so much wants to persuade me, using any tool at hand, including lying. Do you have any idea how I can get him to stop?

[UKannie]

Hi Justine,
I am so sorry you are dealing with this horrible intrusion
You relationship, especially your decisions around having children are none of your parents' business. Can you work out a way of enforcing a boundary with them that makes that clear?
(I can never understand why people think its OK to ask about something that is essentially about their body, their relationship and their sex life)

Telling lies about your boyfriend is unacceptable and highly toxic. Religion is no excuse for any of this. But I don't think you will get anywhere arguing with someone whose idea of womanhood is stuck in the 1800s and I wouldn't even try  

he will keep asking when will I have a baby, untill I will have one

And that is simply bullying.

I refuse to discuss my relationship with my boyfriend with my parents. Nevertheless they keep trying to force me to. This means I see very little of them right now.

You deserve to have total privacy about these issues. I know how hard it is when parents trample all over your feelings to meet their own needs  

 Annie

[justine1984]

Hi Annie,

Well I guess I will just have to tell my father that I will like it if he would never bring up the topic of children. He will not, of course, respect that, and then I will tell him that this is the reason why we meet so rare. Hopefully this will work, as he is complaining that he sees too little of me and that I never call.

Children should not and are not meant to meet the parent's needs. It's the other way around. And I'm sick of others trying to change who I am.

[littleln]

Your choice is your choice and your parents should attempt to honor that choice. However, understand that it would be hard for even an NT parent to accept that their child does not want kids and would still bug the heck out of them to reproduce. I know I will, I want grandbabies!

That being said, I do not know how old you are, but PLEASE do not do anything extremely drastic to your fertility as your opinion on the matter may someday change. You'd be surprised how your attitude about children can change over the course of your life.

[daughter05]

My uBPDm used to excuse her bad behavior towards me with "wait until you've children" and "I hope you've a hateful child".  I wasn't a disobedient child, and I don't think I was a hateful child.  I was a sad child perplexed that I had such mean parents.  When they weren't mean, they were neglectful and demanding.  I was parentified at a young age, and responsible for my golden child sister too.

I certainly questioned my ability to be a good parent, and delayed becoming pregnant until my late 30s.  I was very ambivalent while pregnant w/my first child. But once our 1st was born, I also realized my parents didn't love me, because I loved my child and would do my best to love, protect, and encourage that child.  But I still observe my parenting skills very closely, and compare them w/my parents, to be sure I don't make their mistakes or behave as they did/do.

Your choice whether to have children is solely yours and your partner's, together.  The keen interest in grandchildren, expressed as "you must/you should" is a familiar form of boundary violation.  Can you remind them that it's an intrusive question followed by a long silent pause?

[justine1984]

@littleln: I understand that parents want grandchildren ... well, not understand, but accept it and just take it as it is. I am more than willing to adopt, long time from now, when my therapy will have done it's job enough to make me feel like I can be a good parent and raise a happy fulfilled child. Even so, I don't want a biological child. Ever. The mere thought of pregnancy and childbirth makes my hair stand straight and I can't understand why other women don't feel the same way. I agree that the way I feel could change in time, therefore I am not getting my tubes tied, tho I must admit, it's been a huge temptation. To answer your question, I am in my late 20's.


@daughter05: my mother used to say the same things, that I would deserve to have a child exactly the way I was, that I won't ever be a better mother than she has been. The curious thing is that my mother (BPD), tho telling me quite often about the joys of parenthood, does not insist exhaustingly on the topic, but my father, whom I don't know to have any personality disorder, went just crazy with the idea that I HAVE to have a child, and quick, cause my clock is ticking (funny, I didn't notice).

[daughter05]

Justine:  recognizing my parents' bad parenting and BPD-drama (uBPDm and enabling n-dad), I finally realized that I wasn't doomed to becoming my parents.  DH certainly isn't my dad, and not an enabler.  And I've been checking myself for years to be sure I'm "not my mother".

But do realize that if you ever have children and your parents are part of their lives, then the BPD drama continues.  This has been a hard lesson for me.  Both my parents have interfered and manipulated our children.  My dad has even recently confided to our middle-schooler that: he's unhappily married; our FOO dsyfunctional; he's helpless to change dynamic; grandma dislikes his mom;  and that his mom is just like grandma (I'm not at all like uBPDm - this is projection), etc.  I wish we'd gone NC when 1st child arrived.

[neverenough]

Justine,

I am sorry.  I have made the same decision.  My childhood and experiences have not equipped me to be a sufficient parent.  My mother used to rage at me that someday she hoped I had a child as horrible as me so she could laugh in my face.  These people are freaking sick.  (I was a straight A student.  I never got in trouble outside the house.  Inside the house, I withdrew and hid.)

The questioning is tough though.  And I know that even non-parents do it.  But that doesn't make it better.  When not my parents ask questions about the content of my uterus, I simply stare at them, say I have fur babies and walk away.  When parents ask, I hang up the phone.

And I absolutely despise the attitude of "you'll change your mind someday."  It's so sanctimonious.  Not everyone needs a child to have a fulfilled life.  I don't go around asking people who have kids in the middle of a meltdown in a restaurant if they've changed their mind about having a kid.  The decision to have a child is personal.  And NO ONE should be having a child because their mother is pressuring them to become a grandmother.  That's just making my skin crawl.  It is not your child's job to reproduce FOR YOU, no matter how much you love babies or want the experience.  

Then again, I'm heavily influenced by having a sick family.  It's not just my mother.  Her entire family has problems.  I've had my entire life to watch what happens when people who don't really want kids/shouldn't really have kids breed.  And I can watch how the crazy has reproduced down the line in my extensively long list of cousins.  There is definitely a biological component.

[justine1984]

@neverenough, you could have almost written my very own thoughts. I don't think everyone has to have children. Actually I think some people really shouldn't. I think my mom was on that list, and I think I am on that list as well. I don't know why people encourage it so much - actually it's almost socially unacceptable to say it out loud. Some of us just know we're not cut for it, when I first realized it I was expecting to be congratulated for my maturity - the opposite happened, which was a very sore surprise.

I know I could be different from my mother in the parenting business - I could, but I'm not sure I am. I know I would be resentful of my child for having put me through pregnancy and delivery, even tho it's not his/her fault, it would be my very first contact with my child and I would link the child to those events forever. That's just the top of the list.

[UKannie]

And I absolutely despise the attitude of "you'll change your mind someday."  It's so sanctimonious.  Not everyone needs a child to have a fulfilled life.  I don't go around asking people who have kids in the middle of a meltdown in a restaurant if they've changed their mind about having a kid.  The decision to have a child is personal.  And NO ONE should be having a child because their mother is pressuring them to become a grandmother.  That's just making my skin crawl.  It is not your child's job to reproduce FOR YOU, no matter how much you love babies or want the experience. 

Thanks for expressing that so well neverenough. I don't think it's something that parents of adult kids should ever comment on unless invited to.

 Annie

[linusham]

I too made the decision not to have kids. My own mental health is not great after growing up in such a dysfunctional family. My father was abusive and mentally ill and had drug issues. My mom was ill too but not disordered, she had serious depression from all of it though. On my fathers side of the family there is much mental illness, including people I can clearly see are disordered. Not sure if dad was or just abusive. If he was disordered it not BPD. Then of course there is uBPDsis who is a constant source of stress and worry and who I feel already a sort of carer for.

So I am terrified that I'd have a child and it would be ill. That no matter what I did it would turn out disordered as I've seen so much of it in the wider family and then I'd be trapped in the living nightmare my mother is trapped in.

So for me I am sad about it. I do feel the loss and have been greiving over it recently but I daren't take the risk. I don't think I have the mental or physical reserves left to cope with a child if they started displaying symptoms as they got older.

I agree with what neverenoughsaid. It's almost as if people freak out when women say they don't want kids. Why? It's not that unusual for women to not want kids. I know of friends who've had a great upbringing and still don't want them. They get fulfillment in other ways. They volunteer, have great careers, fur kids, hobbies etc.

[CrazyNoMore]

For the record:  I knew I did not want children at the very deepest core of my being when I was about 12.  I'm 43 now, and my body is already telling me that my time is running out (perimenopause symptoms).  And my feelings on having children have not changed at all. 

You know what, your father can ask until the cows come home.  Nothing you say is going to stop him from asking.  But -- You don't have to answer. 
You don't have to say a darn thing about it. 
To anybody.
For any reason. 
Whatsoever.

Him:  "When are you having a baby?"
You:  "Aren't the lilacs beautiful this year?"
Him:  "When are you having a baby?"
You:  "My gardenias aren't doing so hot, but the begonias are spectacular!"
Him:  "Answer me!  You're going to hell for not having children!"
You:  "I have to go feed my pepper plants now.  'Bye Dad."

I know it's not that simple, but this is the most personal decision a person can make and you don't owe an explanation to anybody for your decisions.
 

[Fabala]

Justine,

I'm sorry you keep getting poked and prodded about this by your family. I've made the same decision, and I still get pestered about it too. I try to keep it simple and say, "we don't want kids." But that never seems to make people happy. Short of just being rude (which is probably called for because I think their questions are rude) I don't know how to make them stop.

The questioning is tough though.  And I know that even non-parents do it.  But that doesn't make it better.  When not my parents ask questions about the content of my uterus, I simply stare at them, say I have fur babies and walk away.  When parents ask, I hang up the phone.

And I absolutely despise the attitude of "you'll change your mind someday."  It's so sanctimonious.  Not everyone needs a child to have a fulfilled life.  I don't go around asking people who have kids in the middle of a meltdown in a restaurant if they've changed their mind about having a kid.  The decision to have a child is personal.  And NO ONE should be having a child because their mother is pressuring them to become a grandmother.  That's just making my skin crawl.  It is not your child's job to reproduce FOR YOU, no matter how much you love babies or want the experience.  

Then again, I'm heavily influenced by having a sick family.  It's not just my mother.  Her entire family has problems.  I've had my entire life to watch what happens when people who don't really want kids/shouldn't really have kids breed.  And I can watch how the crazy has reproduced down the line in my extensively long list of cousins.  There is definitely a biological component.

Thank you to everyone who has responded to this post, especially Never Enough. I've never really been able to express this in words, but you did it so well I have to save your post.

My husband and I knew we weren't going to have kids before we got married. I never wanted to have kids. And even if I had, I grew up in a messed up family, and I know I have too many issues about my own parents to be able to work things out in a timeline that is consistent with my physical age.

In the past year or so, my mother started pestering me about having children, and even came up with a grand scheme where she could get a job that would give her hours where she could watch a baby during the day. Queue the Psycho soundtrack! The thought of subjecting another child to my mother makes my skin crawl.

[neverenough]

Justine,

In the past year or so, my mother started pestering me about having children, and even came up with a grand scheme where she could get a job that would give her hours where she could watch a baby during the day. Queue the Psycho soundtrack! The thought of subjecting another child to my mother makes my skin crawl.

Eeep!  That is scary, Fabala.  Bro the Enmeshed and his wife got pregnant right after my mother's latest suicide attempt.  You know, to give her something to live for.  They (apparently) made a big production of it during visiting hours at her inpatient facility.  I can't believe the staff watched that and did nothing.  I hope that's another one of her figments.  (Well, the production part.  I heard directly from Bro the Enmeshed that they got pregnant so she won't kill herself.  He suggested I do the same.)  Anyway, Bro the Enmeshed and SIL are allowing her to watch the baby during the day.  I don't get it.  I wouldn't even ask my parents to watch our dog, let alone a baby!  So what, she's sick.  Man up and protect the innocent baby.  Blech.

[justine1984]

Thanks all for your answers and especially by the validations. People around me think so differently. When they don't say "you'll change your mind", you can still see it in their eyes, looking at you with a condescendent look. Also there's a particular answer that I dislike very much: once you'll have it, you'll adore it. Maybe it is this way for most people, but ... what if it's not ? Having a baby is not something you can take back

[LeftyA]

I've been married for 5.5 years and my mother started bugging me about kids pretty much since day one.  I kept telling her she could bug me when I'm 30.  I turn 30 next month.  Has that stopped her?  Nope.  In fact we had a nice, long conversation about why I should have them and soon because, "I'm not getting any younger." 

And they have to be my biological children.  She's adamantly against adopting because she knows a few people who adopted and their kids are messed up.  I haven't had the heart to tell her that in at least one case it sounds like more of an operator problem than a problem with the kids.

I thought once my brother had kids (his fiance is due in August) maybe it would take some of the pressure off me (he's 5 yrs older, btw) but if anything it's intensified it.

Now I went through a brief period where I thought maybe I didn't want kids at all but generally felt that I wanted them, just not at that point in time.  I've come around to the idea of having one and feeling like maybe I'm ready in the last 6 months or so and we're considering pulling the goalie in the fall.  But I don't dare tell mother that.

I also can't tell her that she's the main objection in my head right now.  She's the main thing stopping me from going for it now.  I can't stand the thought of dealing with her during a pregnancy because I'm sure I'll do it all wrong.  I can't stand the thought of her giving me helpful parenting tips.  And I have no idea how I'll deal with her being around my child.  How I'll prevent her from harming my child or at the very least bugging the crap out of me and DH with what will surely be constant boundary breaking, rule breaking, and disregarding our parenting wishes.

Justine, it's possible you might change your mind one day, it's also probable that you won't.  And that's your right and bravo for being self-aware enough to stand up to societal pressure and do what's right for you and any hypothetical children.

[irishbear99]

we're considering pulling the goalie in the fall. 

First, I have to say that I LMAO when I read this. ^^^  I love it!  I think I'ma steal it one of these days.   

Justine, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.  It is SUCH an awful intrusion - completely inappropriate!  My DH and I have been married almost 15 years and do not have children.  I went through the pressure from my uBPDm after we first got married.  Finally I got so fed up with her and her nagging about when I was going to "give her a grandchild" (   ).  I told her if she ever asked me again, she'd never see a grandchild from me.  That was almost 10 years ago, and she hasn't asked since.   

And I absolutely despise the attitude of "you'll change your mind someday."  It's so sanctimonious.   

Thank you for saying this, Neverenough.  It's not only sanctimonious, but it's presumptuous, condescending and rude as well.  It takes extra-large uuevos to tell someone that you know what they might want or feel in the future better than they do.

Thanks all for your answers and especially by the validations. People around me think so differently. When they don't say "you'll change your mind", you can still see it in their eyes, looking at you with a condescendent look.

Honestly, Justine, you don't even need to have that conversation with other people if you don't want to.  I've had random acquaintances ask me before, and my response is always to shut the conversation down.  If I'm feeling nice, I'll say, "That's a private topic between my husband and me."  If I'm not feeling nice, I've said, "I'm sorry; I don't think we know each other well enough for my sex life to be an appropriate subject for conversation."

[LeftyA]

In fairness to normal people out there, they probably don't mean to be condescending when they say things about you changing your mind.  It's not uncommon for people's feelings to change, particularly about children as you age and your life changes.  It's still kinda rude, but they probably don't actually mean anything by it.  It's kinda like how people often become more conservative as they get older.

I always try to remind myself when I feel put out by someone's comment that I need to check and make sure the crazy filter isn't on.  I get so used to hearing things the way mother means it that I sometimes forget to turn it off and get offended when talking to normal people.  Most people are just trying to help, albeit sometimes in a misguided way.

[Human]

...I absolutely despise the attitude of "you'll change your mind someday."  It's so sanctimonious.  Not everyone needs a child to have a fulfilled life.  I don't go around asking people who have kids in the middle of a meltdown in a restaurant if they've changed their mind about having a kid.  

Amen to that.

Blah blah blah people probably do "mean" well. But I choose not to bother figuring out what their sanctimonious comments "mean." To those of us who have decided we don't want to raise families, their impertinent intrusion into our very personal decision is CONSTANT and baffling. It's like "nature abhors a vacuum," and "society abhors the vacuum that is an intentionally empty uterus."

Whether from our own parents or from some random woman at our husband's office Christmas party, I don't have to smile and be polite and listen to one more word from people who think it's their mission to correct my allegedly inferior and mistaken opinion on childbearing, compared to their correct and enlightened one.

Condescending is exactly the word for it. People who barely know me think they know better than I do what I actually want in my uterus, my home, and my life.

The next time someone reassures me that I'll "change my mind" (I'm almost middle-aged now, and my mind ain't changing) I might try this:

Condescending person: Oh, you'll change your mind. You'll see.
Human: ...It must be so hard for you.
Condescending person: What? To have children?
Human: No. It must be so hard to have the gift of clairvoyance, yet only be able to use it on other people's lives.

And then walk away, shaking my head in pity.

It's actually easier hearing the Have Kids drumbeat from uBPDmom, since as a survival mechanism I no longer care about her opinion on anything, whether it's about grandchildren or breakfast cereal. Several years ago, she did announce in front of the rest of the family: "I no longer care if you get married. Just get pregnant." Yuck!

[neverenough]

In fairness to normal people out there, they probably don't mean to be condescending when they say things about you changing your mind.  It's not uncommon for people's feelings to change, particularly about children as you age and your life changes.  It's still kinda rude, but they probably don't actually mean anything by it.  It's kinda like how people often become more conservative as they get older.

I always try to remind myself when I feel put out by someone's comment that I need to check and make sure the crazy filter isn't on.  I get so used to hearing things the way mother means it that I sometimes forget to turn it off and get offended when talking to normal people.  Most people are just trying to help, albeit sometimes in a misguided way.

I'm sorry LeftA, but I don't NEED help in deciding what is in my uterus.  It isn't a communal decision here.  Other people, no matter how misguided, or rude, or "helpful" don't get a vote on this one.  I am also not open to discussing the positions my husband and I like to use or our favorite room in the house to have adult fun.  Again, not looking for "help."  It never ceases to amaze me...when I needed help, when I was a child and voiceless, no one was ever there.  My uterus?  Even the cleaning woman in our office thinks she has some input.

There really is nothing more personal than such a question about my body.  It is MY body.  It is not up for debate, or comment, or group brainstorming.  Honestly, this one isn't all about the crazy filter.  This is one of those boundaries that for some reason "society" has decided is ok to breach.  And it's not ok, crazy people or not.  Now, non-crazy people, I just try and change the subject and hope they will realize how rude they are being.  Because I'm a nice person.  However, after a few times of people not getting the hint that their comments on the contents of my uterus are out of bounds, they get lumped in the crazy category and treated accordingly.

Sure, someone could change their mind.  That's kind of a given, isn't it?  I mean, I wanted to grow up to be a pony when I was 3.  I did change my mind about that.  And sure, maybe some people say it because they realize they stepped in it when I say no plans to procreate.  Those are the people who quickly change the topic on their own and never bring it up again.  The sanctimonious, condescending, "You'll change your mind" crap that a good portion of people utter is just that.  The people who argue or point out that their second cousin twice removed never thought she would want kids and now has 4..blahblahblah.  That's awesome for your second cousin twice removed.  How people who don't even know my last name think they somehow know or can help with my life planning decisions is beyond me. 

I wish someone had told my mother she could be a complete, loved, and whole person without children.  I wish someone had told her she didn't need children to fill the bottomless pit of need she has within herself.  Then again, I also wish there was a test so whackadoodles couldn't breed.  None of these options are likely. 

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