Being childfree and the family

[Think About It...]

In fairness to normal people out there, they probably don't mean to be condescending when they say things about you changing your mind. 

LeftyA, one of the things I've learned on my journey to understanding BPD and healing is that sometimes, it doesn't matter whether people "mean" to do.  Sometimes it matters more what they do.  I mean, I'm sure my uBPDm didn't mean to be inappropriate when she told me that she prayed to God I would lose my job so I'd have to move back in with her.  That doesn't negate the fact that it was an extremely inappropriate (and hurtful) thing for her to say.

And, yes, as someone who has had her emotions / feelings / thoughts / actions invalidated her whole life, I am extremely sensitive to having a stranger invalidate my emotions / feelings / thoughts / actions regarding reproduction.  I'm not saying that all people who use the phrase, "You'll change your mind when you're older" are disordered.  I'm just saying that "meaning well" isn't a good enough excuse to dismiss inappropriate behavior.

[irishbear99]

In fairness to normal people out there, they probably don't mean to be condescending when they say things about you changing your mind. 

LeftyA, one of the things I've learned on my journey to understanding BPD and healing is that sometimes, it doesn't matter whether people "mean" to do.  Sometimes it matters more what they do.  I mean, I'm sure my uBPDm didn't mean to be inappropriate when she told me that she prayed to God I would lose my job so I'd have to move back in with her.  That doesn't negate the fact that it was an extremely inappropriate (and hurtful) thing for her to say.

And, yes, as someone who has had her emotions / feelings / thoughts / actions invalidated her whole life, I am extremely sensitive to having a stranger invalidate my emotions / feelings / thoughts / actions regarding reproduction.  I'm not saying that all people who use the phrase, "You'll change your mind when you're older" are disordered.  I'm just saying that "meaning well" isn't a good enough excuse to dismiss inappropriate behavior.

[UKannie]

However, after a few times of people not getting the hint that their comments on the contents of my uterus are out of bounds, they get lumped in the crazy category and treated accordingly.

I agree that it's a total violation of healthy boundaries. It's a   for me if a person starts commenting on that kind of thing: the last thing I need after getting away from my mother are 'friends' who trample all over my boundaries as well.

 Annie

[justine1984]

And, yes, as someone who has had her emotions / feelings / thoughts / actions invalidated her whole life, I am extremely sensitive to having a stranger invalidate my emotions / feelings / thoughts / actions regarding reproduction. 

The same with me. Which is probably why I am at times even a bit aggressive with the people who do that. It's a form of protection.

  It never ceases to amaze me...when I needed help, when I was a child and voiceless, no one was ever there. 

This is precisely what revolts me so much. There was a time that some intrusion could have actually helped, but nobody seemed interested then. Especially my father, who really should have known. I mean, he divorced my mother and ran as fast as he could, saying she is a nut case. But he left me there, with the nut case. He didn't help me even when I ask for help. And now he wants to have a say regarding what I do with my private life and my uterus.

[NewPhoenixRising]

Congrats for making an important decision Justine      Being decisive about things is such an important aspect of life.  Once you make a commitment one way or another about something, it frees you to make other big decisions about where you want your life to go.

[justine1984]

Congrats for making an important decision Justine      Being decisive about things is such an important aspect of life.  Once you make a commitment one way or another about something, it frees you to make other big decisions about where you want your life to go.

Thank you    It does make me feel free. It was actually a huge revelation when I first realized it's not necesary that I have children to be happy. It is the biggest decision I ever made so far, and one of the few that is entirely mine, not influenced by anybody else.

[PinkTeddyBear]

Your choice is your choice and your parents should attempt to honor that choice. However, understand that it would be hard for even an NT parent to accept that their child does not want kids and would still bug the heck out of them to reproduce. I know I will, I want grandbabies!

That being said, I do not know how old you are, but PLEASE do not do anything extremely drastic to your fertility as your opinion on the matter may someday change. You'd be surprised how your attitude about children can change over the course of your life.

Littleln,

With all due respect, it's a little judgmental to imply that Justine is too young to make a decision for her own body.  I would in fact argue that a person in his/her late 20s is TOO YOUNG to have children, especially if the potential parent hasn't (a) traveled; (b) attained a degree and/or held a job for at least five years; (c) really has some life experience, particularly mental/emotional issues.  Some people forget that just because they have/had children doesn't mean others want them.  If anything, 90% of people here are proof of that - most of our parents were not mentally-equipped to have children!  So thinking ahead is always a plus.    From my own POV, I'm not against having children, but I'm not going to rush into it, either.  Too many people fail to consider the little things (possible genetic problems, parenting styles, finances...) and it ends up pretty ugly.  My parents didn't and it created more problems than rewards.  

Justine,

Make the right decision FOR YOU.  Either way is fine so long as it's the right decision for you personally and not one based on a piss-poor role model (your parents).  Others can disagree with it, but if they're worth their salt in integrity, they'll accept your decision as yours.

PTB

[Meremom]

I would in fact argue that a person in his/her late 20s is TOO YOUNG to have children,

I haven't responded to this thread because I have children, but the above statement is insulting and more than a little ridiculous.

I had four children by age 30 and I hadn't done A, B or C.  My husband and I have created a happy, healthy, stable family.  (We're in our mid-40s now)

I have scores of friends who had children in their 20s and they all have thriving families decades later.

We members of this forum who have messed-up parents would have had messed-up parents regardless of how old the nutters were when they had us.  No amount of college or traveling would have helped matters.

I agree that the raising of children is a personal decision and no one should feel pressured by outsiders for or against that decision.

[LeftyA]

Sorry guys, I certainly didn't mean to offend (although apparently to some my intent is irrelevant). 

I don't appreciate the intrusion either and was just sharing that, for me, it helps to reframe it mentally without the crazy filter and realize that they don't mean to be and often don't realize they are being intrusive. 

It's certainly up to everyone to find their level of comfort is when it comes to vocalizing discomfort over anyone's comment to them about any subject.  I just know that personally, I'm a lot happier when I realize that most people mean well (aka most people aren't my mother).  It's not their fault that they didn't grow up in a disordered home so I wouldn't expect the person who makes an offhand comment to understand how that might impact me.  I know I often say things trying to be helpful (not usually because I think they need it but because I care about them) and I'm sure that sometimes someone has found a comment of mine (apparently like the ones in this thread) to be intrusive and I would certainly hope that people would cut me some slack as I try to with them.

[UKannie]

I had four children by age 30 and I hadn't done A, B or C.  My husband and I have created a happy, healthy, stable family.  (We're in our mid-40s now)

To be honest, I feel very envious of that. I was only capable of attracting abusive partners until very recently and it can be difficult to create a stable unit when you haven't come from one yourself.

In defence of PTB I think she was probably referring to the goals/aspirations she has set herself and did not intend to offend anyone. Personally I was a needy mess before "A, B & C". For me education gave me ability to get a profession so I could support myself financially, travel enabled me to 'escape' my FOO and helped build my (non-existent) self-esteem, and the process of recovery from several episodes of depression forced me to learn how to look after myself emotionally. So I can see where she is coming from. That isn't everyone's journey but has certainly been mine.

I wish I had met a kind, reliable partner earlier in life and had possessed the ability to build a healthy relationship. I would have gladly traded in some travel and career opportunities to get more personal happiness when I was younger, but life doesn't work like that.

Cue for me to call on the Serenity Prayer 

 Annie

[irishbear99]

Sorry guys, I certainly didn't mean to offend (although apparently to some my intent is irrelevant). 

LeftyA,
I apologzie.  I went back and re-read my comment, and it reads to me a little more defensive than I intended.  I can only speak for myself, but I was not offended by your post, just interested in providing an alternate view.  Also, with the child-bearing issues I'm dealing with at the moment (I have another thread on this), I think I'm probably extra-touchy on the subject.

[LeftyA]

Sorry guys, I certainly didn't mean to offend (although apparently to some my intent is irrelevant). 

LeftyA,
I apologzie.  I went back and re-read my comment, and it reads to me a little more defensive than I intended.  I can only speak for myself, but I was not offended by your post, just interested in providing an alternate view.  Also, with the child-bearing issues I'm dealing with at the moment (I have another thread on this), I think I'm probably extra-touchy on the subject.

It's no problem IB.  I was just trying to provide an alternate view as well because I know sometimes I hear everything through the crazy mom filter and have come to realize that that's my issue, not the people who are saying the things. 

I'm sorry you're going through stuff related to child bearing (I haven't seen your other thread yet so I'm not sure what that stuff is) but I hope whatever it is works out and you find some peace.

We all have stuff that we get touchy about.  <hugs>

[justine1984]

[  Some people forget that just because they have/had children doesn't mean others want them.  If anything, 90% of people here are proof of that - most of our parents were not mentally-equipped to have children!  

And nor am I equipped to raise happy healthy children. You would think people will admire not bringing another life into the world and then making it miserable. But they really don't. What is it about maternity that everyone applauds it so loud? Why applaud it even when it's a complete failure? I don't mean to offend anyone who is a parent - some parents are great and if you are one of those, I wish I was born into your family. But I really think it's a great thing when a future terrible parent realizes he would make a terrible parent, and decides not to become one. Many times I wished my mother would have had this kind of insight.

I know this is a very flamable topic, but I'm sure you all understand what I mean, because you were raised in families just like my own and many of you perhaps thought to yourself on several occasions, "it would have been best if I was never born".

[PinkTeddyBear]

I would in fact argue that a person in his/her late 20s is TOO YOUNG to have children,

I haven't responded to this thread because I have children, but the above statement is insulting and more than a little ridiculous.

I had four children by age 30 and I hadn't done A, B or C.  My husband and I have created a happy, healthy, stable family.  (We're in our mid-40s now)

I have scores of friends who had children in their 20s and they all have thriving families decades later.

We members of this forum who have messed-up parents would have had messed-up parents regardless of how old the nutters were when they had us.  No amount of college or traveling would have helped matters.

I agree that the raising of children is a personal decision and no one should feel pressured by outsiders for or against that decision.

Meremom,

This was precisely my point.  I can make a statement about my personal beliefs, but those beliefs do not need to apply to others.  Just as it is unacceptable for me to enforce my personal beliefs upon those who have children, those who have children should refrain from doing so to those who do not or who choose not to have kids.  Just as you became offended at someone making a remark about how you should live, i.e., as a mother, people shouldn't do the same to Justine.

PTB 

[justine1984]

I need to ask something, just maybe I can get to better understand my father. My question is adressed to parents with adult children, and what I need to know is: do you want grandchildren from them? And if you do, why is that? As someone who doesn't want children, I find it even harder to understand why someone wants grandchildren. This is not meant to be offensive in any way to anybody, I simply want to better understand my own parents.

[Meremom]

I am SO looking forward to grandchildren!              

I have six children (the eldest is in college) so I suspect that I'll have at least a few.  Since they talk about wanting big families I may have scores.

My reasons for looking forward to grandchildren are probably way different than a disordered person's, though, so this might not be helpful in your particular case.

In general, I like people.  People are interesting and amazing and enrich our lives.  I have a special fondness for children because they are funny and inquisitive and charming.  The love I have for my own children is indescribable.  My greatest joy in life is watching them learn about the world and experience its wonders.

Grandchildren will be a continuation of our family.  It brings great peace to think that when my husband and I are gone our family will continue on throughout the ages.  But before then, I look forward to having more babies and children in the family.  I'm going to love watching them grow up and become their own persons.  It will be amazing to see my own children get to experience the joys and sacrifices of parenthood.

And... probably like the disordered... I look forward to my golden years being surrounded by loved ones.  I'll never be alone because there are just so many of us!  The difference between a mentally healthy grandparent and a disordered one is that I don't intend to guilt anyone into visiting.  I'm trying to raise them in such a way that they want to spend time with me.   

[justine1984]

@meremom, I like very much the way you think. I'm sure you will be very much loved by your grandchildren. I wish my dad would want gradchildren for your reasons, that would be different. But my father never liked kids. He said me and my brother are the only children he ever liked and enjoyed being around. The reason he wants me to have kids is simply because he thinks that will bring some sort of stability for me (but I only see it as limitation, I don't want this kind of stability) and because this is simply what people do. And most important, he believes that not having children is a sin - in fact his religious views are another part of the problem between us, as he is trying to impose them on me. He is a christian fundamentalist.

Thanks a lot for your answer. I am looking forward to other answers as well

[NonBPD Solo]

Thanks for posting this topic.

After growing up in a dysfunctional household with a unBPD mother, my last thought when I finally got out on my own was to have kids. While I didn't necessarily have any problem with kids, the mix of being raised by a very emotionally unstable, controlling mom and not being around babies and children practically my entire life puts me in this mindset (for lack of a better term) of not wanting to have kids.

Because of my upbringing, I had many situations where my parents knew I was in therapy b/c of my severe anxiety/depression. 

So at the time I was getting married, I would have panic attacks about the notion of having children. And... weirdly enough, we would talk about this.  And they were quite rational about it.  They were in no way pressuring me to have kids b/c even though I knew their underlying wish was to have grandchildren.  But what they do not (and will not) recognize is from where this anxiety is rooted.  That's the disconnect here.  That was 8 years ago.

Every time I think of having kids, my anxiety level goes up and I start thinking about how my relationship with my mother would go from infrequent contact and her having very little control or influence in my life now to her pushing her way in to 'help' with the baby. 

Now I know how this story plays out, as I've learned how to read her and her mood swings.  She would move her way in to my life more b/c of the baby despite my efforts to keep the boundaries.  IF I were to defend myself and exercise my separateness from her even in any mild way, she would go from being all involved and enthusiastic to being angry, hurt, feeling rejected and ultimately verbally vicious - very black and white thinking and acting).  Then this leaves me on my own to take care of a child with all of my psychological baggage and huge fear of becoming as dysfunctional as her.

So I'm sure most of you would say, 'OK, so don't have kids - case closed', but of course I can't make it that easy for myself.  I have to give myself a huge guilt trip b/c my faith is becoming a bigger part of my life (Catholic guilt). I love re-discovering my faith, however, this rediscovering has brought up whole other bevvy of issues for me to get upset about.  Uggh! 

[baconninja]

One more for the never reproducing camp. I decided this at the ripe old age of 3 years old. It was one of my earliest memories deciding not to put anyone else through this.

There are so many people ALREADY HERE that no one gives a CRAP about. Why make more? Why not help someone who is already alive? You probably wont understand this sentiment unless you've BEEN one of those people that no one gives a crap about.