I think it's time - soooo need advice.

[Think About It...]

Hi everyone,

I have been doing a lot of soul-searching and thinking lately.  A lot a lot.

My pwBPD is my best friend who also works with me.  I have struggled a lot during this very difficult year when he has been so abusive yet I have to see him every day and can't go NC.

In what is probably normal BPD fashion, he has quit his job and is going somewhere else.  I think he knew his mask had slipped to so many people at our job (he missed days and days and weeks of work, our boss had to sit him down and talk to him, some coworkers had been talking, etc.) so even though the majority of people think he is amazing I think he knows that others suspect things aren't adding up.  So, abruptly, he is quitting.

It has filled me with so many emotions:  I have a deep-rooted fear of abandonment and it stirred that up, some anger (I know once he goes to his new job and makes friends he has not raged at been abusive to and still see him as amazing, it is bye-bye sheepdog and his other friends), to sadness (sometimes we drove to work together and it was very fun or would have lunch together, etc.), to relief, relief.

Anyway, I think it may be a good time to end things.  No, he has not raged at me in months but he rages in a million little, patronizing ways.  I don't think he is healthy for me.  He is refusing help.  Because he has not raged he thinks he is 'all better' and 'never been happier in his whole life'.

So my question is:  do I let him know that I think it's healthier for us to kind of stop being friends?  I think he will maybe get upset because in his mind, there is no basis for it.  If there had been an extinction burst or raging abuse as there has been in the past, I think he would be more able to understand why I am ending it.  But there hasn't been.

I'm just very confused right now.  Am I making any sense?

[sheepdog]

Hi everyone,

I have been doing a lot of soul-searching and thinking lately.  A lot a lot.

My pwBPD is my best friend who also works with me.  I have struggled a lot during this very difficult year when he has been so abusive yet I have to see him every day and can't go NC.

In what is probably normal BPD fashion, he has quit his job and is going somewhere else.  I think he knew his mask had slipped to so many people at our job (he missed days and days and weeks of work, our boss had to sit him down and talk to him, some coworkers had been talking, etc.) so even though the majority of people think he is amazing I think he knows that others suspect things aren't adding up.  So, abruptly, he is quitting.

It has filled me with so many emotions:  I have a deep-rooted fear of abandonment and it stirred that up, some anger (I know once he goes to his new job and makes friends he has not raged at been abusive to and still see him as amazing, it is bye-bye sheepdog and his other friends), to sadness (sometimes we drove to work together and it was very fun or would have lunch together, etc.), to relief, relief.

Anyway, I think it may be a good time to end things.  No, he has not raged at me in months but he rages in a million little, patronizing ways.  I don't think he is healthy for me.  He is refusing help.  Because he has not raged he thinks he is 'all better' and 'never been happier in his whole life'.

So my question is:  do I let him know that I think it's healthier for us to kind of stop being friends?  I think he will maybe get upset because in his mind, there is no basis for it.  If there had been an extinction burst or raging abuse as there has been in the past, I think he would be more able to understand why I am ending it.  But there hasn't been.

I'm just very confused right now.  Am I making any sense?

[pallavirajsinghani]

Sheepdog:  Instead of ending it abruptly by talking to him about "The End"  conversation will probably be too traumatic.  The nature of this relationship seems to be such that you can gently just let it drift away...like casually neglecting the phone calls, casually "forgetting" to text back.  Or just saying that you are too busy/tired/a little under the weather for lunch etc.

Just let it go gently.  Disengage your mind and your heart and slowly let the person drift away from your physical life too.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for analyzing and making the decision to either continue working on your relationship or to leave it. If you have already please advance to "L3 Leaving" or the "L4 Staying" board. All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[sheepdog]

But pallavirajsinghani - isn't that kind of dishonest?

Will that make him pull, pull harder?  I think he senses that I have been pulling AWAY lately and he has been pulling TO soooo hard - until last night when he did not get his way and was short and curt.

We will still see each other in several social circles and I wonder what it will look like?  How he will act?  Actually, I am almost positive that he will just drop out of those circles once he finds his new friend replacements.

[ibelieveinus]

distancing yourself will cause your friend to rage. Cutting it off completely will be very hard. The only way to cut yourself off with a BPD person is to go No Contact. There is a tendency of recycling so even with you going no contact all together it will be very hard as they never seem to disengage completely. Many with BPD had abandonment issues of their own so distancing yourself may cause him to chase you. Remember, everything with BPD's is very black and white. One minute hes going to be angry and the next hes going to paint you white to win you back over. The chance that your friend will just drop off the face of the earth for the new crowd is slim to none. They like the chase to much. The relationship seems very unhealthy and without help it will eventually get worse. Can you emotionally afford that? This is not about you punishing him, its about you doing whats best for you.

[sheepdog]

ibelieveinus - thanks for your post.

I have to admit, though, that it was confusing...
Isn't utting it off and NC the same thing?  Or is that what you were saying?

I guess the NC thing to me seems a little unkind.  To just ignore someone and act like they don't exist when that is their biggest fear...
On the other hand, I understand that telling someone, "Look, I don't think this relationship is healthy for either of us and we should probably go our seperate ways" is also hard for someone with abandonment issues.

i hear over and over and over that BPDs come back and come back and recycle.  I guess I thought that if I was straight up with him that that would not happen.

I don't know.  I am confused and appreciate all and any input.

[acknowledgement]

I would also like advise at this stage of the long friendship (that I thought would be a lifetime, even through the tough times, irrationality, manipulations, silencing - I thought long term friends "hung in there" through good and bad, etc.). However, it is my BPD friend that has silenced and is demanding a written account of the wrongdoing she perceives before she will speak with me again...how should I handle this - even with this new awareness, I had hoped I could learn the validation, boundary techniques, etc. and move in a new direction with this long time person...she will not return a phone call and is demanding a text written note of what she sees as the wrong, when in reality it is not true - she is lying! I know if I write that it is not true, it will only be more rage...what to do with her stonewalling? Leave it up to her to call and maybe talk this through...maybe salvage a friendship at a new level of communicating...should I have NC with her on my initiation? Please help this is all so confusing, sudden and prior to this we were making plans to see each other soon!

[losingconfidence]

I can definitely relate to the frustrating you feel when they see no reason for the cut-off. The problem is that we learn how to be good friends from kindergarten teachers. There are "nice" little boys and girls, and "mean" little boys and girls. Nice people indiscriminately play with everyone, mean people don't. Nice kids grow up wondering why the mean kids are so much happier. You have the right to be selective about who occupies your time. If this person is not healthy for you, you are the only one who can determine that and no one has the right to assert otherwise for you. Life is generally better without a manipulative person in it, whether he rages or not.

[sheepdog]

Thanks losingconfidence,
I do still care about him.  I know this is all about ME now but since i care about his well-being I was wondering what was the best way to end it.

Sounds like it's best to just let it fizzle out...

But again, what does that mean?  Not returning texts and calls 9 out of 10 times?  Not getting together?

 ?   ;p

[acknowledgement]

The way to end the relationship is to BEGIN finding yourself...when entangled in the web of a BPD we are generally codependent upon them for some reason - they fill a need for us and we are playing by the rules of the BPD...when we find our true selves, we see the BPD for who they are...it is tough to let go of the person that emerged at times that was fun, laughing, intimate whatever the case was...but GET TO KNOW YOURSELF...it is unlikey they will even chose to be aware of their BPD and less likely they will change...so CHANGE YOURSELF and be treated the way a friend or relationship should be...with a BPD it is not normal!

[sheepdog]

Thank you.  I am changing myself and my thoughts and it has been very enlightening.

My question is what to do now?  How to end it?

[Peterpan]

I am relating to your post Sheepdog,,big time.

I had a very intense relationship with a married co-worker, who had (seeing it clearer now) manipulated and pursued me for so long, that I actually believed we were meant to be together BEFORE IT BACAME PHYSICAL.

I fell for him so hard, I ached inside to be with with him, and he was in my head constantly when I wasn't with him.
Things didn't add up from the beginning really, lots of red flags, if I'm honest, I think as soon as we were intimate for the first time, he backed away, never letting go, still clingy, texting and calling obsessively, but physical contact more or less stopped for a while. Those red flags got worse, and more obvious.

I then found out, with proof, that he was also cheating with another co-worker, right under my nose.
I was absolutely devastated, it made me ill, it also made me despise myself for not listening to my gut instinct.

He, upon my confrontation, flatly denied it, begged, pleaded and stalked me until I gave in, convinced myself I had imagined it all, and  I chose to try to forget it and move on. He somehow managed to talk me into being the one who was paranoid.

He then abruptly changed jobs.
 During his last few weeks, he gave me the absolute impression that I was the love of his life, things would always be the same between us, he continued all the same contact, and on his last day, begged me not to let this be the end.

Within a week of him moving, everything changed, his contact waned, and everything about his actions told me he was still in contact with that other co-worker. It drove me almost to a breakdown, I couldn't believe that someone could do this to someoen they claimed to love so much.

I was dumfounded, but, not wanting to appear desperate or needy, I just gently asked questions here and there, the more I did, the more he backed away again.

Not only had I been left feeling deeply betrayed, but also doubly manipulated and abandoned as well.

Guess what, I still wanted so badly to believe that he was being honest, and it was me who was over paranoid!

Like yours, Sheepdog, mine left his job abruptly because I had 'found him out' He was scared witless that I would expose him for what he did to me. He aslo had two of us, bith thinking we were the one for him, and I think he was worreid I would speak to her, he even manipulated me into not doing that

The outcome of my story is that now, after almost a year, this man is still in my life, not physically, but he continues to pulll at me, simply because...   
1. He saw me devastated, he saw just how much I loved him, and , just how much he had hurt me, it made him feel good that I loved him enough to stay after his behaviour towards me.

2. He knew I had proof of the other woman and is probably scared I will expose him, even after all this time.

That is the reality of it when I am in a state where I can think rationally.

When I am not, I believe that he pulls at me because he loves me in his own way, and still want to believe he does.

After months of him not asking to see me, always with a ridiculous excuse, I had asked him to call me one night because I really needed to talk, I was really down as my mother was very ill.

 We made a time...I sat waiting for him for 45 minutes, my gut told me he would not call... he din't even tex to say he could not call me... the next night he text saying,I know your mad with me, I would be! and then all about HIS problems! I was polite back to him, but I think I realised that night, that he has no empathy, no concern, no guilt, remorse... and definitely NO LOVE for me.

My mother passed away the next day, and here was I wanting to let him know, this man whom I loved, but I couldn't, I had to wait until HE contacted me!

When he did, I let him know, it took him two hours to reply!

That was when I finally did see him for what he is.

I still love him, I still can't bring myself to just ignore him, like you, and I still can't make myself tell him it's over, because I am STILL , like you, worrying how it will affect him!

I am aslo still trying against all the odds, to understand him, trying to tell myself  that he backs off because of his fears, and yet (understandably) I always do and will think he backs off becasue he has new supply of attention.

I'm sorry my story is a long one Sheepdog... I will say this, I really wish I had stopped all contact with him the day he left... not told him, warned him, anything...Just STOPPED all contact immediately!

beacuse I didn't, he has continued to use me, manipulate and pull at me...simply becasue he can.
I recently couldn't answer his text (I had a very good reason).. his reaction was to not contact me for a week! I had all this as well as the grief of losing my mom, stuck between needing him to talk to, worrying where he was and who with, and it was just another week of devastation.

They are so good in their manipulation that they will use anything they can to keep you there, and none of it will ever make you feel good.
I feel such a fool for letting this go on so long, and now feel it's been too long. I worry that if I end contact with him, he may get angry and accuse me of playing games with him.

Sheepdog... when this guy leaves, tell him calmly that it's time to move on, that he will make new friends in his new job, and that you wish him well, and it's been nice knowing him!

Then, if he contacts you again, politely ignore it for your own health and sanity.

[OnceConfused]

sheepdog:

I can sense that you are not ready yet to leave the man as bad as it may seem. With sudden NC, you are afraid he gets upset but with the slow disengagement you are afraid that this is not honest. Sorry, there is no magic wand of making him disappear and yet making both of you happy. As with any separation, there will be the uneasiness, the discomfort of saying NO or "THIS IS THE END". Like they say in the NIKE ads, "JUST DO IT".

Mrs. Roosevelt said it well, "No one can make you feel inferior without your permission>"

Sheepdog, as hard as it may be to say good bye (as I also struggled with it when I wanted to leave xBPDgf), but your decisive actions - be it a simple face to face to say "Thank you so much, but I think we need to move on", or a don't respond for a while from calls or texts., will make you STRONGER in the end. This will be a test of your characters, Sheepdog. 

[acknowledgement]

My BPD best friend (or so I thought) of 30 plus years...just texted "WE are not working for me anymore so I will call you to wish you well instead of in a text"  (as I had been asking for a return phone call to talk things over for months instead of the insulting texts she was sendng.. IS THIS NORMAL OR RATIONAL IN A REGULAR RELATIONSHIP? I lovwe this friend and would never have abandoned her  just accepted her with all of her faults, decisions, etc. for who she was and who I thought we were? Do I juist let it go and never contact her again?

[sheepdog]

Peterpan - wow!  I almost don't know what to say!
First, I am so very, very, very sorry about your mom.   
And i am so sorry that he put all of his drama and mess onto you when you were going through such a traumatic experience.

Your story and his - it is similar to mine and my friend wBPD.  Not exact, but so much similarity.

This sentence in your post has given me a lot of pause:  1. He saw me devastated, he saw just how much I loved him, and , just how much he had hurt me, it made him feel good that I loved him enough to stay after his behaviour towards me.
I think you hit the nail on the head, there.  Mine went so far as to send me an email that said, "I know you will never leave me and I know you love me more than you love yourself." 

Where are you now with him?

sheepdog:

I can sense that you are not ready yet to leave the man as bad as it may seem. With sudden NC, you are afraid he gets upset but with the slow disengagement you are afraid that this is not honest. Sorry, there is no magic wand of making him disappear and yet making both of you happy. As with any separation, there will be the uneasiness, the discomfort of saying NO or "THIS IS THE END". Like they say in the NIKE ads, "JUST DO IT".

Mrs. Roosevelt said it well, "No one can make you feel inferior without your permission>"

Sheepdog, as hard as it may be to say good bye (as I also struggled with it when I wanted to leave xBPDgf), but your decisive actions - be it a simple face to face to say "Thank you so much, but I think we need to move on", or a don't respond for a while from calls or texts., will make you STRONGER in the end. This will be a test of your characters, Sheepdog. 

Thank you, OnceConfused.  May I ask you two questions:
(If the first is too private, I understand.)
1.  Which way did you choose to disengage with yours?
2.  How can you sense I may not be ready?  Is it what you wrote after that sentence?

My BPD best friend (or so I thought) of 30 plus years...just texted "WE are not working for me anymore so I will call you to wish you well instead of in a text"  (as I had been asking for a return phone call to talk things over for months instead of the insulting texts she was sendng.. IS THIS NORMAL OR RATIONAL IN A REGULAR RELATIONSHIP? I lovwe this friend and would never have abandoned her  just accepted her with all of her faults, decisions, etc. for who she was and who I thought we were? Do I juist let it go and never contact her again?

Ugh acknowledgement!  What did you do?

[Peterpan]

Sheepdog...

right now I am in the same situation, I can't contact him,,at all, he is married (in a bad marriage to a nagging woman...yeah right  )

when I do recieve contact it leaves me paranoid nearly every time,, there are things in his texts which don't refer to me at all, I can't explain it, words which dont fit the sentence, but always refer to the other woman. It's almost like he does it on purpose to wind me up!

The few times we have been together have always been in a place where nothing but talking could happen.
He has an excuse every time I ask why he can't see me.
He has been in 'back off' mode for three months, not even asking to speak to me on the phone (this tells me it is someone else's turn rather than mine) A lot of things point back to the other woman (the same one) and I mean a lot of thiings.

He is denying it, flatly, saying there is only me, and will only ever be me.

Only yesterday he text saying, I will talk to you later my darling... he didn't even text me again, and again, I sat there waiting and hoping while he made a fool of me again.

He recently said he could use his family visits as an excuse to see me... then he texts me saying he couldn't text me for a couple of days because he has been been busy on a family visit!
(using that excuse to see someone else?)

I can't believe I'm actually writing all this, reading it back and seeing CLEARLY what he is dong to me, but I am still allowing it all to happen.

I have asked him just for consistency, and if he doesn't see anything with me in the future, to just tell me so that I can move on. He says he does, and is being honest with me!

I just can't come to terms that someone would do this to another human being, I'm beginning to think he has sociopathic traits and is enjoying being cruel to me.

Where am I now with him? exactly the same place I was  months ago, confused, frustrated, waiting and hoping for some thing which,, deep down, I don't think is going to happen, but LIke you, I just can't bring myself to move on from him.

No contact today and wondering why, and of course he says  it's me who confuses him!

[sheepdog]

Peterpan,

Why are you so drawn to this man?

[Clearmind]

isn't that kind of dishonest?

SD, correct if I am wrong! Are you more concerned with the fear of letting him go or the guilt you may feel in doing so? Or do you feel obligated to hang onto the friendship until he either backs away, in which case you don't have to make a decision (Phew!) or are you willing to wait until he finds another 'buddy' thereby allowing you to be off the hook --- and hopefully not painted black?

With a relationship that is dying a slow death --- it is painful! Is it painful SD? Are you concerned about being painted black?

What is it that you truly fear?

[acknowledgement]

YOU WILL STAY CONFUSED WITH A BPD...they will keep you dancing and in control...you will never do anything right you will always be wrong they will always be the victim...read the article on what healthy relationships look like...get away from your BPD now before he further destroys you and keeps you from a real relationship...examine what he gives you that you need (lonely child?)...read that article, too - it is so enlightening on the lonely child and the abandoned child (the BPD)...good luck - there are so many of us who have danced with them for so long - too long - they do a favor when they release you - go NO CONTACT it's the only way with them (unless they are in sincere therapy and you are in a committed marriage/situation with them and want to do the work on yourself and they are truly committed to YEARS of therapy to rewire their brain)...unlikely...

[sheepdog]

isn't that kind of dishonest?

SD, correct if I am wrong! Are you more concerned with the fear of letting him go or the guilt you may feel in doing so? Or do you feel obligated to hang onto the friendship until he either backs away, in which case you don't have to make a decision (Phew!) or are you willing to wait until he finds another 'buddy' thereby allowing you to be off the hook --- and hopefully not painted black?

With a relationship that is dying a slow death --- it is painful! Is it painful SD? Are you concerned about being painted black?

What is it that you truly fear?

I guess I have a fear of abandonment but it is a bit more complicated.  I truly, rarely let people IN, and especially not around my family.  It is very much a cultural thing in our family.  But, I let him meet my family, stay with my family, made him feel he was part of my family.  And I wonder, why...how/why did I do that?  I was really snowed! 
I do feel a slight level of guilt.  I'm not *worried* about him painting me black...if he does, he does.  I think it would bother me though that if he did, he'd think what a terrible person I am, and how can he think thatt?  Oh, right...cause he's mentally ill...
I would much rather be the one that ends it then have him find another bff and end it.  So that is not a concern.  I'd rather leave him...would make me feel like I was saving face or something...
So, I don't know the answer.  I'm working on it...

[123Phoebe]

Hi sheepdog,

I realize that this all very confusing when we're really attached to someone, be it a friendship or romantic relationship.  That being said, you don't HAVE to do anything.  Sometimes feeling like we have to act and DO something, throws us off course.  Listen to your body and follow its cues...  If he calls and you're not in the mood to talk to him, don't answer right then.  Call him back at your convenience or don't.  Same goes for texts.  You don't have to be 100% available to anybody ever.  You have a life.   

I don't see the need to break off and go NC with this person, dramatic style.  There doesn't have to be a big hoopla surrounding it; a 'talk' or conversation.  People come into our lives and people fade away as circumstances change. 

He's quitting his job:

I have a deep-rooted fear of abandonment and it stirred that up, some anger (I know once he goes to his new job and makes friends he has not raged at been abusive to and still see him as amazing, it is bye-bye sheepdog and his other friends), to sadness (sometimes we drove to work together and it was very fun or would have lunch together, etc.), to relief, relief.

People quit their jobs everyday and the people they used to work with kinda fade away; it's very common. 

Can you wish him well in your heart, knowing that you'll miss certain aspects of your friendship?
 
What struck me is this quote:

I would much rather be the one that ends it then have him find another bff and end it.  So that is not a concern.  I'd rather leave him...would make me feel like I was saving face or something...

Why do you have a strong urge to save face in a friendship-relationship?

My advice is to let nature take its course and follow the lessons from this forum.  Take a step backward and put other things that don't involve him at all on the front burner.  Don't make him or any issues involving him a top priority.  Just do your thing and get busy living your life, not worrying about him or what he's doing, who he's doing it with, ya know?  Once you detach it's amazing how clearly things come into focus and the need to DO something dissipates.  The pressure will be off from any outcome and you'll feel freer to just be... be yourself!

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