Is it just the nature of the illness?

[Think About It...]

Okay, so i know everywhere I read, both here and in psychology articles, etc., it says that people with BPD are not manipulative.

It also compares their outburts/feelings, etc. to those of a young child.

Here is what I don't comprehend and am asking someone to explain it to me in laymen's terms - HOW is it not manipulative when they do the bad behavior/raging, etc. only to YOU?  

Most of the world thinks my friend wBPD is the most charming, hilarious, upbeat man.  If I ever told them what he'd done they would never believe it.  Isn't it manipulative if they can keep it in check with everyone in their world excpet one or two people?

We have been talking at work and he was being totally mean and someone walks up and he's all, "Hey!  I LOVE that dress!  How are you?"  It's happened with the phone, too.  As soon as they leave, he turns on me again.

When a child is mad, they are MAD.  If they are mad at their mother and someone tries to come along and appease them, they are gonna stay mad until THEY feel like they're done.

So if they are able to keep themselves in check around everyone else in the world, and not to us, how is that not manipulative and/or purposeful?

Is it just the nature of the illness?  Has anyone read any good articles, etc. about this?

Thanks!

[sheepdog]

Okay, so i know everywhere I read, both here and in psychology articles, etc., it says that people with BPD are not manipulative.

It also compares their outburts/feelings, etc. to those of a young child.

Here is what I don't comprehend and am asking someone to explain it to me in laymen's terms - HOW is it not manipulative when they do the bad behavior/raging, etc. only to YOU?  

Most of the world thinks my friend wBPD is the most charming, hilarious, upbeat man.  If I ever told them what he'd done they would never believe it.  Isn't it manipulative if they can keep it in check with everyone in their world excpet one or two people?

We have been talking at work and he was being totally mean and someone walks up and he's all, "Hey!  I LOVE that dress!  How are you?"  It's happened with the phone, too.  As soon as they leave, he turns on me again.

When a child is mad, they are MAD.  If they are mad at their mother and someone tries to come along and appease them, they are gonna stay mad until THEY feel like they're done.

So if they are able to keep themselves in check around everyone else in the world, and not to us, how is that not manipulative and/or purposeful?

Is it just the nature of the illness?  Has anyone read any good articles, etc. about this?

Thanks!

[Steph]

 People with BPD can compartmentalize..meaning they are able to be mean to you and turn around and be nice to someone else. You are in the " Ok to dump all over her" box, and someone else isnt.

Raging tends to take on a life of its own, but not always...meaning sometimes, everyone gets it. Not always, tho..that can be compartmentalized, too.

  Essentially, he is taking his cue off of you, on how he should behave. When you hang out for the meanness, its ok for him to do it. He knows that the others arent ok with it, or it isnt otherwise ok. With you, as long as you allow it, its ok. Even if it isnt ok, for him, its ok if you continue to allow it with your presence and attention. If he knew it wasnt ok, and you truly showed him it wasnt ok, it would stop. Or at the very least, you would walk away for it.

Now, if he is sociopathic, he manipulates everyone and every thing.

[united for now]

The child comparison only goes so far, and never completely fits since we are dealing with adults who still retain childish tendencies...some parts fit, others don't.

And steph is completely correct.
 

we teach people how to treat us by the behavior we accept from them


I'll say it harsher...
we are the only ones who put up with their abuse. Other people walk away


What do you think would happen if you didn't put up with the abuse?

How would he respond?

[Empty]

I think it is manipulation as they are capable of turning the abuse on and off to achieve a goal.

It is an oversimplification to say they are 3 yr olds in adult bodies. They live and learn and find the triggers to achieve a goal. My BPDw is a chameleon in her moods and can turn it on and off to suit the occassion.

Never a truer word spoken in that we are the ones who enable this as we tolerate and accept this behaviour rather than walk away and not tolerate it.

Mythoughts are they try it on and gauge the reaction before letting slip their mask to reveal the demon that lays beneath.

[sheepdog]

Thank you Steph and unitedfor now!  I have learned that lesson somewhere along the way and am happy to say that the raging, yelling, name-calling, etc. is finally over.  Ironically, it's over and now I am considering moving on with my life. 
Even though those extreme and violent behaviors are a thing of the past (I think), he still rages under the surface and likes to play games or play the dumb-act, etc.  Those things are so annoying to me.  I'm trying to figure out how to 'teach' him that those things are not okay either.  Like, little things that should not and would not matter with other people but because he does it with everything, they build up into a zillion little things which equals one big thing.   ;p    
For example, if I sent him a personal text or sent him an email and asked him for a response, he will ignore them.  I have learned not to send him personal texts - not worth it.  I went away for a week recently and he was all like, "I'm gonna really try to answer your two emails this week." And I said, there is no try, there's do or don't do.  And he's like oh you're right, I'm going to do it this week!  Got back - no email response.  Stuff like that and especailly the dumb act drive me nuts! 

I think it is manipulation as they are capable of turning the abuse on and off to achieve a goal.

I agree, Empty!  I know we are in the minority but I 100% agree.

[briefcase]

It's not that people with BPD are incapable of manipulation. Like everyone else, they can be, and are, manipulative at times.

The problem is that its easy for us nons to engage in some black and white thinking of our own and start to attribute all of their behaviors to "playing games," "being manipulative," or "being bad people." This thinking implies that our partners are highly organized and malicious in what they do, when that is not usually the case. More often than not, they are reacting to how they see the world and us, not engaging in a master plan of manipulation.

[needbpdhelp]

I think the example you used is more just human nature than the nature of the illness. Most of us try not to 'air our dirty laundry in public'. We are all more apt to lose our composure at home or with people we live with.

As to manipulation, check out Wikipedia's definition:

"Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics."

My take on this is that the rages of someone with BPD are usually just out of control emotions rather than deceptive tactics. Who would plan a tactic  to be nasty and offensive to get their own way?

needBPDhelp

[united for now]

None of your responses explain then, why "you" keep talking to an abusive, manipulative, selfish man...


If that is your belief. Then why stick around?
Why keep coming back for more abuse?
What's in it for you?

[Steph]

None of your responses explain then, why "you" keep talking to an abusive, manipulative, selfish man...


If that is your belief. Then why stick around?
Why keep coming back for more abuse?
What's in it for you?

 Ive wondered about this myself...

You started out really rocky with him.

He does stuff like have affairs with married women and also sexting, etc with coworkers that he admits he doesnt like

He is emotionally and verbally abusive to you.


Why are you still hanging out with him?

You arent married to him, you arent in a romantic relationship with him.

I know you say that he can be super wonderful, but the whole person is a guy who is capable of behaving wonderfully AND being a real jerk and someone you dislike. He  IS the person who is a jerk..it isnt one side of him...the whole package smacks of someone who is truly significantly disordered.

So, I am curious. What is in it for you?

[Steph]

>>For example, if I sent him a personal text or sent him an email and asked him for a response, he will ignore them.  I have learned not to send him personal texts - not worth it.  I went away for a week recently and he was all like, "I'm gonna really try to answer your two emails this week." And I said, there is no try, there's do or don't do.  And he's like oh you're right, I'm going to do it this week!  Got back - no email response.  Stuff like that and especailly the dumb act drive me nuts!  <<


 Con, gamey antisocial behavior is what I am reading. He is yanking your chain because he likes it, it works for him, it entertains him and he, frankly, lacks empathy to your needs and wants. If you told him to PLEASE do NOT text you at a certain time, I will bet that he would.." Oh..ya//you did say that. Im sorry.."

ASPD

[sheepdog]

unitedfornow and Steph - I just really want to say thank you.  You guys really make me think about things. 
I think I'm ready to move on and say this relationship is not healthy.  But for some reason, it's hard.
I think one reason is that me, more than anyone, knows his whole story...all the pain, ugliness, abuse, etc. and I know he has no family to speak of except for a very weird relationship with his mom.
And I think another reason is that, like you said, he has times where he is wonderful.  My grandmother has been very ill recently and he has been there for me.  I myself had a health scare recently and he was there for me.  I volunteer at a non-profit and he will help if I get overloaded.  A coworker passed away this year and I saw how it ripped him apart.  Things like that. 
He cries to me.  A lot.
But I have been questioning everything - is it all an act?
I recently had the convo with him - the one where I sat down (I picked a time when I could gauge it was going to go well) and told him I didn't think he was healthy for me and vice versa and that I was thinking it might be a good time to move on and gave reasons.  I did tell him how though I was happy that the raging was done and that I knew he knew if we ever went back there again, the friendship would be over, but that friends respond to texts and emails and don't play games.  He said I was right.  But that he was scared because he knows he is an as*hole and he knows he does wrong but he has no idea why he does the things he does.  He said he's trying to do better but that he will probably mess up again.  I told him that he had succeeded in making me feel like nothing months ago (he told me he had wanted to do this - to make me feel the way his parents had made him feel) but that I WASN'T nothing.  And, unfortunately I did start to cry.  I don't like to do that in front of people.  He cried as well.
I did talk to him about the affair, other things and asked him how those decisions sit with him.  He said he knows he messes up but is trying to do better.  I found out that he took the sexting girl out on a date and that she is beyond giddy and they kissed.  He did not tell me this.  When I asked him if he had had a good week and had he had any fun, did anything different, he said nope.

I get back, no emails.  Though he did respond to all texts when I was gone.  And he did not pick a fight like he used to when I left town.  Oh, and he sent me texts out of the blue telling me to have fun with my family and that he didn't know what it felt like to have a real family and people that you can be close to.  He said part of the idea terrifies him and then the other half sounds like a dream.  He also texted that one of the reasons he doesn't like to get close to people is so he won't have to feel bad when they leave.

Steph, yes, that absolutely sounds like what he would say.  But isn't part of BPD these crazy games?

I think the last reason is that I was taught not to give up on things/people.  Love will conquer all.  Take the shirt off your back, etc.  I am learning to differentiate that in healthier ways but it's still been with me for decades.

Sorry for the super long response.

And, truly, thank you.

[sheepdog]

Oh and one more thing I forgot to mention above - it *didn't* start out rocky with him.  At all.  He was the best friend a person could have for 2 1/2 years.  And then...all hell broke loose...
I know now that was the idealization stage.  I know it is part of it.  But it is hard to wrap your head around that long of a time that well-behaved.

[spark2]

Oh and one more thing I forgot to mention above - it *didn't* start out rocky with him.  At all.  He was the best friend a person could have for 2 1/2 years.  And then...all hell broke loose...
I know now that was the idealization stage.  I know it is part of it.  But it is hard to wrap your head around that long of a time that well-behaved.

I agree that would be excessive. I only had months of good behavior. Once I moved to be with her it was curtains.

[Steph]

 He sounds like someone with antisocial PD.

He plays games, he says what works with you.

He can behave like a good guy, but you can bet it somehow came to be about him.

 And if he really didnt want to be a jerk, he could go to therapy. He really doesnt want to get better, he doesnt need to get better. He knows he wanted to make you feel like nothing, and he did  it on purpose. Aspd. BPD is about the inability to control your emotions in healthy ways. He not only controls his own emotions, but he is good at controlling yours...and others as well.

He has the background for that, as well.

 
    I am happy to see that you are wondering what it is about him that is keeping you hooked.

  Wouldnt it be awesome to have a friend who could be there for you AND be good for you, at the same time?

[JimNelson89]

Most of the world thinks my friend wBPD is the most charming, hilarious, upbeat man.  If I ever told them what he'd done they would never believe it.  Isn't it manipulative if they can keep it in check with everyone in their world excpet one or two people?

sheepdog

My opinion: it sounds like what you are describing is controlling-not manipulative.  Per Wikitionary:

Adjective

Manipulative (comparative more manipulative, superlative most manipulative)

• Tending to manipulate others.
• (pejorative) Reaching one's goals at the expense of other people by using them.

Someone who is deliberately manipulative will try to manipulate you first (cause you are in your life).  When they fail they will try someone else.  They will repeat this until they find someone.  They will use a host of tools such as charm, wit, lying, conning, guilt, humiliation, etc.  You will see this as a pattern in their life.  You will also see evidence of a logical goal, profit, etc.

So if your Partner (or SO) accuses you of having an affair and their goal appears to make you feel bad, how do they profit from that?  Did they move on to someone else?  If the answer to these questions is no, they are not being manipulative.  Maybe controlling, maybe just bad behavior.

Just my 2 cents

[united for now]

We accomplish and learn from that which we focus on.

If all of your thoughts and worries and fears on focused on "him" and "his issues" and "his behavior" where does that leave any time for you?
What about your life?
What about finding yourself a boy friend?
What about learning a new hobby?
What about growing your mind in a new direction?


None of this is possible if all your time and effort is occupied thinking of him..

[waverider]

Most of the world thinks my friend wBPD is the most charming, hilarious, upbeat man.  If I ever told them what he'd done they would never believe it.  Isn't it manipulative if they can keep it in check with everyone in their world excpet one or two people?

So if your Partner (or SO) accuses you of having an affair and their goal appears to make you feel bad, how do they profit from that?  Did they move on to someone else?  If the answer to these questions is no, they are not being manipulative.  Maybe controlling, maybe just bad behavior.

Just my 2 cents

their goal just may not be logical or obvious. It may simply be to justify their own insecurities, or to give them a subject matter on which to tag their own projections. Ie they feel insecure, it must be someone fault, so you must be responsible and that is their goal to blame you

[sheepdog]

I agree that would be excessive. I only had months of good behavior. Once I moved to be with her it was curtains.

spark2 - you made me realize something!  Like I said, we wnet YEARS without all the rage and anger coming out.  Of course, there were probably flags but they were more of a depressed nature and weren't ever directed AT me...  But once he left his wife, and moved to my side of town, and moved out of his house, that is when he started to change.  Right when he moved away from the home he had shared with her for ten years.  Hmmm...

 
    I am happy to see that you are wondering what it is about him that is keeping you hooked.

  Wouldnt it be awesome to have a friend who could be there for you AND be good for you, at the same time?

Thanks, Steph.  As always appreciate your questions and support.  And yes, it would.  Yesterday, we went to a 4th party and had the best time.  It's those days that make you think, ah, maybe I can handle this.  But you're right - the nice side AND the jerk side are all him...

We accomplish and learn from that which we focus on.

If all of your thoughts and worries and fears on focused on "him" and "his issues" and "his behavior" where does that leave any time for you?
What about your life?
What about finding yourself a boy friend?
What about learning a new hobby?
What about growing your mind in a new direction?


None of this is possible if all your time and effort is occupied thinking of him..

unitedfor now - I feel I have given you the wrong impression.  I am not completely focused on him.  I have quite a nice life with many friends, I do have a SO, I do go to classes and have hobbies., and I do grow my mind in many directions.  That was always true all my life until the proverbial s**t hit the fan in November and I lost myself for a while.  But it is all true again. 

Yes, when I come to these boards, it probably looks as though I am fixated, ruminating...and that is because I AM...on these boards.  He is still in my life.  But my eyes are wide-open now.  This is my safe place to ask questions and try to figure all of this (and myself) out.
This past year has been a hard one.  Very hard.  Like I said, sheepdog was MIA for a while.  But now, now that I am out of that horrible FOG, I am really turning the mirror on ME.  I had a part in this.  I, who never allowed behavior like this from anyone, allowed it from my bff.  My bff!  How messed up is that?  I am discovering a lot about myself - I am so freakin codependent it is ridiculous.  My SO bought me Melody Beattie's book and we're workin on it together.  I've never had someone in my life commit suicide but I now know it's a way for him to have kept me under his thumb.  And then, even my sentence above...well, I have read here and other places that you can't say when you are in a relationship with a BPD that "I've never been treated so badly in my life" because chances are, you have.  So i am digging deep.  Trying to figure out how *i* (not him) made me get so far off the beaten path.  Just yesterday, I stumbled across a thread about 'lonely children' and it blew my whole mind.  It fit me to a 't'.  Things like that...  I come here to learn.  I fixate on here because it comforts me when I read thread after thread after thread to know that I am dealing with something truly sick and awful and that others here have fallen for the same things.  And we're not all stupid.

I understand that he is not my spouse, he is not my boyfriend, he is not my family member and that it comes across to many people on this board as strange then that I can't just drop him.  And maybe they are right.  But he and I have had a longer friendship then many of the people on here that were only with their pwBPD for 6 months to a year.  I would not say that because of the shorter amount of time, that their experiences are *less* than mine - just as it bothers me when some people then say because he is not my SO that MY experiences are less than theirs.  I have larned here about FOO - and part of mine is 'turn the other cheek', 'take the shirt off your back', 'love will conquer all', etc.  But also part of my FOO is 'trust no one but the family.'  And I did.  I even let him HANG with my family.  And - pow!
I know you're probably not saying that, UFN.  I, too, am trying to get off the merry - go - round and I do know where your questions are coming from.  The thing is, I *am* off the merry-go-round in the sense that I am standing next to it now, watching him go round and round and feeling the wind and leaves and wind blowing around me and seeing the ghost of myself hanging on for dear life on one of the horses and wondering how the hell it happened to begin with. 

And waverider and JimNelson 89 - thank you for the food for thought.  He can definitely be controlling but I do feel he is also manipulative at times because he DOES do things for personal gain/satisfaction sometimes.

[united for now]

Sometimes we need those dark days to prod us into recognizing areas of opportunity.

Yes, from what you write here it is easy to assume the wrong thing. That you are stuck and ruminating in some unhealthy ways. I'm glad to hear that isn't so

[sheepdog]

Well, it could very well be so.   

But, the only way out is through for me and that's the way it has always been.

I'm not the kind that can say, 'He hurt me.  I had a part in it.  Time to walk."

I feel a need to know why, and how it happened, and why I allowed it to happen.

So I'm sure there is ruminating involved in that.  But I'm not at home listening to the same CD over and over and not eating.   

It's safe to say that I have invested quite a bit of energy into this this year but maybe that is part of the process.  And also, I had to work with him.  Now, I will just have to see him socially. 

He told me when he took the other job, "I think this will be the best thing for our friendship."  He started last week.  We have had a great week and a half.

Who knows with BPD?

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