I believe my husband may be to dysregulated to have a relationship

[Think About It...]

After having a violent psychotic break in February and having be hospitalized, he is not in a place where validation, boundaries, and support work. He is continuing to have delusional thoughts and has no insight into the damage that has been done. We have been separated since February.

Basically, he claims that the cat, an animal he adopted and adored for over a year, will give him an eye infection. He has never had health problems related to the cat before, and literally painted he black overnight during that breakdown. He stayed with me a few weeks, and had no problems with the cat..in fact, petting her and feeding. Then, he flips, storms out of the house and does not call for 2 days.

I posit that this has nothing to do with the cat.

He has severe attachment issues, he has trouble communicating with his own family, who is not a bed of roses. Not horrible people, but not validating and pretty critical. He has trouble communicating with his son. He has not seen him in 5 years.

He rages, tries to gaslight, projects, and is terrified of abandonment. He has many good qualities, but frankly, he does not have the skills to be a partner right now. He has been though a lot of trauma, including a murder attempt and a concussion resulting from that, but that was 8 years ago. This is a brilliant man with much to offer the world. We do love each other.

I have firm boundaries. I have validated, listened. But I think he is so deranged from attachment issues and is arrogant, that I am am uncertain that he can come back. He will not seek treatment of any kind.

[Maryiscontrary]

After having a violent psychotic break in February and having be hospitalized, he is not in a place where validation, boundaries, and support work. He is continuing to have delusional thoughts and has no insight into the damage that has been done. We have been separated since February.

Basically, he claims that the cat, an animal he adopted and adored for over a year, will give him an eye infection. He has never had health problems related to the cat before, and literally painted he black overnight during that breakdown. He stayed with me a few weeks, and had no problems with the cat..in fact, petting her and feeding. Then, he flips, storms out of the house and does not call for 2 days.

I posit that this has nothing to do with the cat.

He has severe attachment issues, he has trouble communicating with his own family, who is not a bed of roses. Not horrible people, but not validating and pretty critical. He has trouble communicating with his son. He has not seen him in 5 years.

He rages, tries to gaslight, projects, and is terrified of abandonment. He has many good qualities, but frankly, he does not have the skills to be a partner right now. He has been though a lot of trauma, including a murder attempt and a concussion resulting from that, but that was 8 years ago. This is a brilliant man with much to offer the world. We do love each other.

I have firm boundaries. I have validated, listened. But I think he is so deranged from attachment issues and is arrogant, that I am am uncertain that he can come back. He will not seek treatment of any kind.

[united for now]

What are your plans then?

[Steph]

 That sort of delusion ( the cat) doesnt sound like BPD but other mental illnesses.

 Even so, he isnt getting help and along with UFN, wonder what your plans are?

  Steph

[Maryiscontrary]

I will leave town for a month to visit friends and family for so in a few days. When my lease expires, i will get out of this god awful city. We were planning to move before the psychotic break, but those plans fell through because he got too sick. My family was compassionate and tried to talk to him, but he raged at them in a nonsensical manner as well. His family was not here, but he lied to them, telling them he was victimized and committed involuntarily to the hospital because of the cat. So they do not have the real story, though I think that they have their suspicions.

They wanted to keep him 3 months, but my brother, an attorney, got him out just hours before the hearing. This, I believe, was a mistake, because he has been delusional and unfocused ever since. And periodically dangerous.


 He claims he is getting the a moving truck and moving to be near an estranged brother in Tampa, but he has way too much stuff..hoarding...to fit into even the largest Uhaul truck.
He was never quite this bad before the break. Many redeeming qualities. A principaled man. A tragedy.

He is completely dissociated from his emotions, and flips when I try to ask him how he feels about any upsetting circumstance. I believe that the flip out over the cat was due to a medical bill he got opened a few minutes before.

So he has an upset, but projects it onto something else. So much project will drive any normal person suffering from it crazy. It is tragic, but curious, that an entrenched habit of projecting all emotional upsets will make a person schizophrenic like.

[Steph]

 He sounds like he has schizophrenia or another psychotic disorder. Is he on meds?

Steph

[Maryiscontrary]

Well Steph, there are very strong traits of BPD. He only freaks out with people who are close to him. A casual friend would never know. He is perfectly logical.

There are profound attachment issues...there is no doubt. Absolutely no doubt. He cousin told me years ago about this. There was a lot of severe abuse in his household. He didn't speak to his father for 17 years, but spared no expense for medical care and reunited when he was dying from lung cancer.

There are also asperger traits, as he has trouble communicating effectively with people, and has obsessive interests in boxes, stamps, and engineering tinkering. This is a world class engineer, famous in his field. Like Steve Wozniak.

He could have temporal lobe epilepsy from the concussion...again these symptoms can mimic BPD and schizophrenia.

He has never had issues with schizophenia in the past, running 300 man factory he built himself...this was before we were married. He had excellent executive control at one time.

[Maryiscontrary]

Steph no...he refuses all treatment. He refused meds in the hospital.

[Maryiscontrary]

Also, like many of the descriptions of others, he splits, self harms, pretends nothing is wrong, has begged me not to divorce him, but then tells me it's over, make snide remarks when I self care, like going in a walk in the park. He claims his life sucks so bad, when he is the envy of his friends and family. All of his friends and family are in deep financial straights, and we are not.

He broods that there is nothing to do here, but when i suggest a nice concert or things to do, more often than not he declines. Not normally a liar, he has lied continuously after the break.
He is extremely unfocused.

I believe that the real issue is that he can't dominate me. He says I am domineering, but objectively, this just isn't the case...in fact I realized how much I enabled by bending too much and trying to walk on eggshell from minor meltdowns before.

I think he is angry that I will not be run over.

[united for now]

You are both planning on moving.
Yet you are posting here, on the staying board... ?

Relationships are based on our interactions. When one person changes their response and behaviors it can leave the other feeling insecure and fearful.

does he understand what led to you changing?

[Maryiscontrary]

Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I do care and love him very, very much. I am frightened that he will kill himself. he would be stealth, as he would want to escape police and hospitals at any cost.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, appears to matter to him.


He has threatened to move to NY, Atlanta and Tampa...huge 1000+miles moves, at least 20 times in the last 3 months. You know what, I get tired of the blackmail.

He used to be quirky, occasional meltdowns...but he was a man that loved my family, loved stability, love my reliability. he had a deep appreciation for these things. But the meltdowns got verbally abusive, and they got worse. And finally, dangerous.

United, he acts as though everything is cheap right now. He is acting like a demanding spoiled child...which was far out of character. Totally and completely self centered. This has been going on for 5 months.

No amount of validation, set statements, dearmans, reflective listening, doing nice things,  is really working.

There is something seriously wrong, and there is not a damn thing I can do about it.

And no, I do not believe he understands me changing, at least consciously,

[united for now]

Sorry for all the questions    I'm trying to understand so I can maybe offer more specific advice.


And this was all divulged and evaluated by a specialist?

Did he follow through with getting T after his discharge?

If he still has some of his psychosis going on, then you are right, normal modes of inter action won't work.

LEAP, by Dr Xavier Amador may be worthwhile to look into. Its a way to communicate and build trust with people who are suffering from psychosis.


 
The threats to leave do get old - I know   ;p
They leave you resentful and hopeless.
Keep posting. You aren't alone any more...

[Maryiscontrary]

United, I appreciate you staying with me through this.

No, he has followed through on nothing from the hospital...absolutely nothing. He absolutely thinks nothing is wrong. He absolutely thinks he is the victim. My family and I tried everything. Again, he is able to pass for normal for short periods.

I am the one with the therapist...and he specializes in dysregulation, and he seems to think there is nothing I can do.

Yes, I told everything to the doctors at the hospital when he was admitted. They emulated him and wanted to keep him...I knew noth ing because he banned me from talking with them. But he told my brother, an attorney, about the extended committal court hearing papers he was served, and my brother goes, without my knowledge, and threatens them, so they let him out.

My brother was ignorant, and did not understand the seriousness of the situation. My brother then tried to talk him into seeing somebody outside the hospital, but to no avail.

I have read everything my Xavier Amador, and watched a number of his video lectures.

No, none Amadors validation technique have worked. This is how I learned about validation.

He absolutely does not acknowledge any thing, and thinks he is a victim.

We have an online based supplier business together. I have dialed it down by 70%, and though he has good days, there are others where he make bad screw ups. This business is is related to his engineering expertise, and as I said elsewhere, he is a top expert in the field...and he make sophomoric mistakes.

I told him that as soon as we can get the mistakes attenuated, I will be happy to bring in more business.

He just thinks I am being mean and victimizing him. He thinks I am just being lazy and vindictive, taking away his fun. He does not realize how many client orders he has screwed up and I had to cover for. actually he does, but he doesn't care. He had world class performance before.

My close friends and family, most of whom have had extreme compassion, as they love the guy, think I need to leave the area, at least for a while.

[LoveNotWar]

You say he used to be quirky with occasional meltdowns, sort of an Aspie thing, but recently things have gotten much worse. You talk about a successful engineer having problems with business suddenly.

I hear you describe MANY behaviors that sound like BPD and some behaviors sound like  other mental health issues.

I am wondering if he's had a thorough physical? There are some medical conditions that cause symptoms/behaviors similar to the ones you are describing.

[Maryiscontrary]

His bloodwork is fine.

The family and I tried to talk him into getting looked at by a neurologist.

He absolutely refused.

[Steph]

 When was the concussion?  Certainly, a brain injury can dramatically change a person, or a tumor, dementias,or?

   Is he able totake care of himself, such as feed/clothe, turn on heat, turn on a/c, drive, etc? Basic needs?

    If he wont speak to a physician, perhaps you should. You can ask them the best approaches for him to get help. If he is a danger to himself, that is important as well.

[Maryiscontrary]

The concussion, which was a bullet graze across the right temporal lobe region, was 8 years ago.

He is able to do the basics, kinda. He does not bathe much or practice oral health.

However, with something like rotted, festering teeth that can be smelled 2 feet away, he will not get taken care of. He has glaucoma, with many eye surgeries. He will not go for a periodic checkup to check for pressures and retinal health. He eats tons of junk food. He wears the same dirty...really dirty clothes...not just worn... for weeks.

He has gotten a bunch of traffic tickets recently, and he doesn't give a damn...just ignored them.

He has trouble filing tax reports, almost always screwing up the same quarterly report.

Steph, the laws are very strict with civil rights. I can talk to a medical professional until I am blue in the face, but without clear and present evident danger..right then, right in front of my face, there is nothing I can do.

We do not live together right now, but very concerning behavior, unless it is imminent threat of harm, is not considered in a realm that medical professionals can help out with, unless he wants it.

He is very stealth, and scared shtless of being locked up again. delusions, wearing dirty clothes, disappearing for 2 days, profound lack of insight, and emotional blackmail are not enough to have someone come in and force medical help.

He does not want it.

[Aida]

Mary,

You are in good hands here. Because of the support and guidance I receive here, I have had to look at myself very seriously, and how I have enabled SO to be even more sick. I am working on that now. It doesn't sound like you enable, it sounds like your husband is very sick.

It also sounds like you have read and researched everything under the sun. Have you read any of Amen's work about the brain? He takes brain scans in order to see the damaged parts of the brain. He resides in Newport Beach, Ca. The brain injury your husband had eight years ago might explain his increasing psychosis.

I'll keep a good thought for you.

Aida

[Maryiscontrary]

Thanks much.

As with everything else, my family and I have begged him to get a MRI. I have offered to pay for everything out of my savings. He told me he didn't trust me with picking out a neurologist, so I asked him to pick one out.

He absolutely denied it.

[Maryiscontrary]

The original MRI was in Europe, so it is inaccessible.

[Steph]

 Did all of this start with the brain injury?

He does sound like he has schizophrenia or TBI issues ( Psych nurse here) or schizoaffective disorder, or depression with psychotic features. I have a friend who has a schizophrenia diagnosis and it sounds very very similar. What you describe sounds like a person with the thought disorder like schizophrenia.

 I would suggest you call a local mental health hotline and talk to them and see what they offer. With my friend, they were able to bring a social worker to the home and she was able to establish trust with him and while he had resisted services for ages, it happened under her very skilled abilities. He now is in a safe place and doing pretty well, in fact.  As his wife legally, they will listen. He sounds like a vulnerable adult, and as such, needs protection. Paranoia isnt easy or fun for those around him, and its pure hell for the person going thru it.

  This really sounds like a whole lot more than simply BPD.

[Maryiscontrary]

Steph, again, thanks for your support.

Yes, I think this is a combination of severe issues. I think he would freak out if I brought someone in. He is already paranoid from when I had to call the police...who did nothing. He conned them an tried to put the blame on me.

Understand, he does not live with me.


He is already paranoid from the authorities at the hospital...whom he could not con. He would try to con the social worker, and deny any symptoms. There were a number of good people he spoke with at the hospital, but he told them that the problem was me...and nobody could get through to him.

I do not believe he would stick to a regimen of medication. He will rarely take Tylenol, even when he has in great pain. He did not take the risperidol that was perscribed when my brother forced him out of the hospital.

Steph, I do not have any more family support with this. My brother freaked out and refuses to talk to him...I think this is out of guilt of taking him out of the hospital. My father is now a 1000 miles away...and he is recovering from a stroke. He think I should just leave because of the toll it has taken on me.


His family will not speak with me, even though I had been upfront and forthcoming with all of the medical issues, contact numbers, etc. And they never bothered to come anyway.

I am so depleted that I spend much of my time in bed. I am not depressed, I am just exhausted. Having to be the strong one exhausts me. I have had a number of deaths in the family in the recent past, and I just don't know how I can bear any more.

[Dynamic]

Hang in there, Mary. It is hard handling pwBPD let alone a person with all the issues that you mentioned. I will keep you in my prayers.

If nothing else is working, why not just call the hotline as Steph suggested? Maybe they can give some suggestions/insight. It's worth trying. They cannot visit your h without your approval or you giving your h's address, anyways.

[Maryiscontrary]

I will call a little later today, but I do not have much hope.

I feel that I am really missing out on life.
Thanks for your prayers.

[Aida]

Mary,

Your agony is familiar to me. May I make one humble suggestion? Take it one day at a time and see the responses to your posts as a lifeline, until you decide what to do next. This is the one one place I've found where people are going through the same thing.

I understand your discouragement with the police, doctors, and the mental health system. Our loved ones may be Ill, but they are smart. I think that sometimes, when it comes to mentall ilness, that is a dangerous combination, especially when they blame us. Steph has made me look at some really hard issues, but I need that. I just hope I don't wear her out. I have felt so alone for so long, and it is here that I found my first glimmer of hope. I am still in crisis over my SO, and I am taking one day at a time.

[Maryiscontrary]

Thanks much Aida.

I am afraid he maybe too lost for help, and that I do not have the reserves to deal with this.

Not being arrogant, but I am a real catch. So many guys have told him how lucky he is. I feel I honestly deserve somebody that will listen and learn how to self care and self regulate. Actually, I do not want any other relationship at all...I just want my peaceful secure household and business operations with or without him. I don't need anybody.

He is a special, special friend. And he came by today for shipments and everything is peaceful and quiet. No talk of cat and disease.

But I know it won't be that way unless he gets some major help. He knows this. He knows he is losing everything. He seems to accept that his life is nothing but suffering and pain, but he won't do anything to fix it. He knows life sucks without a stable family unit.

But he is so dissociated, he honestly does not see what he has done wrong. and if you were a stranger and just casually talking to him, you just might believe him.

[Steph]

It is totally ok to let go of him...No one is making you be responsible for his well being...tho it does seem like people expect it to land on you.

 When I began my career in psych nursing, someone told me " Always remember..you cannot make sense out of crazy" and dealing with an untreated delusional person IS crazy.

 So, if you do let go of him, at least let someone in the mental health system aware. Let them know you cannot handle it any more,and believe he is a danger, at least in that he isnt providing self care. Then..let go, if you need to.

 He is a sick man and he needs help. It will take either him completely becomming psychotic, or the paranoia will lead him to help other ways. You cannot fix what is wrong with him, but if I am correct, medications can. Sadly, it sounds like he is paranoid of the meds, too..and maybe, at some point, he will end up involuntarily committed, or otherwise land in a psych unit, or even jail and get the help he needs. It can happen that way.

Just know that there is nothing that makes you turn your life inside out, as it has...you can let go. You can, if you need and desire to. And its ok.

I love my friend with schizophrenia, but I cannot imagine being married to him..His paranoia and mood swings are miserable to watch and to be around. It is wearing to be around, and has even been scary for us. He stayed with us for awhile and we had to call the police a few times..so, I think I can understand, from a personal level.

   You arent going to fix him. Make the call and let someone know who might be able to get the ball rolling for him..and then, take care of you. I am sorry...this is hard.

Steph

[Maryiscontrary]

I called the crisis hotline for my area.

Basically, the only choice I have is to go before the judge and request to have him involuntarily committed. I asked about the kinder, gentler option about a social worker, but they cannot provide this unless he requests it.

Please advise, friends, because I am having a difficult time.

[Steph]

I called the crisis hotline for my area.

Basically, the only choice I have is to go before the judge and request to have him involuntarily committed. I asked about the kinder, gentler option about a social worker, but they cannot provide this unless he requests it.

Please advise, friends, because I am having a difficult time.

 In my state, the mental health judge is often very kind and will try to find he least restrictive option for the person in need. Did the crisis line feel it was a worthwhile endeavor for you?

I spose you could go to him and tell him you are worried...that you want to see him get help before other more drastic measures are taken. Would he be willing to take some steps for his own welfare so that this wont have to happen?

Steph

[Maryiscontrary]

In my red state, there just aren't a lot of options. I talked to a very close friend a few minutes ago, who is a nurse, and who has to have her own son committed a few years back, and who is familiar with the situation. She knows him well and she knows me.


Her advice was to let him go. If he is going to destroy himself, the mental health system will not stop this in the long run. She has seen what this has done to me...and the extreme efforts that were made to support him. John Nash, the Nobel prize economist, went through this, and his wife said no more, and divorced him. After wandering around Europe insane for 8 years, he comes crawling back to her. He had the same arrogant attitude as my husband. And he cleaned his ass up.

But, even thought the mental health system was more generous back then and stays were longer, dr. Nash was going to do what he was going to do. My husband is going to do what he wants to do. He is that kind of man. Hard to explain.

If I told him that I was worried, and offered a proverbial ultimatum being locked up, he would just bolt.

I have lost my mom, all 3 of my grandparents, and almost my dad in the last couple years. My family is all but wiped out. I need to concentrate on me. He had had more support and opportunity than most men. You can be mentally ill, and you can be a mentally ill asshole.

Believe me, I know stephanie. I recovered from serious mental illness...was written off...and had nowhere near the support that he had. I got my sht together, without pills, without therapy...none of that worked...and I did what it took. I am now one of the more logical, level headed people out there. Definitely someone a person would want on their lifeboat.

I have to let go. If he comes back, it was meant to be. If not, it was meant to be. I have no energy to take care of an ill person who doesn't give a damn.

[Steph]

I think that is a really fair place to be. You cant force someone to get well, and at some point, enough is enough.


  What next steps are you going to take?

[Maryiscontrary]

You and everyone else have been wonderful.

I have read many of your posts. It looks like you decided you were not going to take any crap either. From what I read, you became very mindful of your responses and didnt take any ugliness. From what I understood, your husband owes you his life.

I admire you.

[Aida]

Mary,

I agree with your comments about Steph. She is one smart woman. We all look up to her.

What are you going to do today? What are you going to do that is self-caring?

Thinking of you,

Aida

[Steph]

 Well, to be frank, it took this place for me to see my part in the mess.

We had the usual BPD/non marriage and it wasnt good. He raged, attempted suicide, held me hostage to that ( I allowed myself to be..) and I engaged in arguments, fights, and always, always had to be right. He found his way to DBT by a therapist who refused to work with us unless the BPD symptoms were under control and after yet another suicide attempt,  he found his way. To be really honest, I thought he didnt need it, if only he would do a variety of things I had thought would help   

  So, 2 years into DBT, things between us arent good. Still. I see him as someone who still lacks maturity and emotional growth and am withdrawn and having an emotional affair with my job. I deliberately took hours opposite of his and worked long hours and picked up many extra shifts, to avoid him. He kept trying to talk to me, and I kept telling him what he meant and how to think about life. I was still so angry at him, and I didnt know it and I lacked insight into my own behavior. He had yet another suicide attempt after a partaking in. I left the house in an indignant and self rightous state of mind, middle finger in the air and full of codependant martyr thinking.

  I got a call from him that night, barely coherant, and knew he was in trouble. Almost reluctantly, I am ashamed to admit, I called the police to check on him. He had lit a bbq in a sealed off room, taken a bunch of benadryl and alot of alcohol and lit it. The police broke into an upstairs room and got him out in time. They actually had to call me to come home. I was so disconnected at that point, and irritated that my nice evening away from him ended with me having to go to the hospital, etc. This event hurt me terribly, but I was pushed even further away. He left a long note, and it said kind things, but my heart was frozen solid.



  A couple of months later,  I went to Seattle to take care of some family stuff and while I was away, thinking about my miserable life, marriage and this abusive man I was married to. He, on the other hand, had moved out and left me an email to tell me. I was actually relieved and delighted.

   I started divorce proceedings, but was somehow unable to make it happen.  I stumbled onto this board and for the first time, ever, I saw us here. I saw our ugly fights and craziness. The hardest part, however, was, I saw me...in the Nons. I was able to read what others were doing and how they seemed to be making things worse..and then it dawned on me that I was reading my life, my behaviors, my own sickness.

   I got ahold of my husband and told him what I had found. He couldnt imagine that this could help and that I finally got what he was trying to scream at me all of those years..but I did. When I say that this place saved our marriage, I am not kidding..

  From there, I got into therapy, he was still in DBT and we worked out a therapeutic separation with a MC who knows DBT and BPD. We stayed apart for almost a year and have been reconciled almost 4 years ( 4 in August) he fully recovered from BPD by continuing in DBT and I continue to recover from my own issues of codependancy, low self esteem and history of childhood trauma. I suspect I always will be recovering from that. He has had no rages, or anything resembling BPD for all of this time. Emotions are handled appropriately, despite many challenges from life that would have thrown him into the Pit years ago.

  So, ya know? I am not a hero at all...what I learned came hard, painfully and even now, its hard to admit pieces of it. Yet, it was this sort of honesty that got thru to me, and its about helping others in gratitude and love for this board and everyone who finds their way here.

 

  Steph

[Maryiscontrary]

Aida, thanks for your care and support. Thank you to everybody.

I rented a tiny self storage and I moved the absolutely most important items in there this morning. I am an extreme minimalist...so even a 4x5 storage had huge amounts of room.

By the way...this is for me, and me only...I found getting rid of items that had not been used for 2-3 years is an important part of recovery if one has dysregulation herself. I was a hoarder...no more. It  takes huge amounts of stress off. Housing is cheaper, it is so easy to keep clean and organized. It take just a few hours to move, which is an activity everybody despises.

I will leave on a long trip tomorrow with the cat. My husband, who made himself homeless by putting in a 30 day notice last month without thinking, can stay at the apartment, which has just some cheap furniture, while I am gone.

He is trying now to decide if he wants to move to Florida or NY...it was just Florida yesterday. I am uncertain if he can get organized enought to do it, so the apartment is there for him.

He came in yesterday, smelling so bad with his filthy clothes. He had been staying at a motel, and had plenty of clothes and toiletries. This is an incredibly handsome man. He was defeated, and I validated and held his hand. He said that if I could just get rid of the cat, everything would be better, and we could live together. It broke my heart to listen to his dispair.

She was such a feral stray, eating from our compost pile, when he brought her in in 2010. He trained her to be domesticated...I was fearful, but he calmed her, so she was tame enough to interact. This was his baby. Now painted black.

He spent the night, took a bath, and said nothing about the cat being here.

I will leave in the morning.

[Maryiscontrary]

Thanks so much for sharing this Steph. And I stand by what I say...he owes you his life. He does.

I don't have a lack of self esteem or self respect anymore. I do not have a tv or stereo, so I can meditiate...and I don't mean sitting cross legged, every day. These are exercises of focus, because my family and also genetic constitution gives me a propensity to be unfocused. I am not religious, but the secular buddhist practices are absolutely the superior methods of self soothing...and are the basis of dbt.

I was enabling in ways I was not aware of. When I understood what I was doing was not helping, but was hurting him, I immediately stopped. Whatever he has, there is a definite pull push. These is some strong attachment based dysregulation there, on top of a shtload of other things.

I don't recall getting ugly too many times with disagreements. But like many here, basic rational arguments did not work when he dysregulated. when I understood, I have tried as best as possible to talk to the emotion. I fall off the wagon and I just want to shake him sometimes.

But he is too dysregulated to be a housemate right now. A good friend, yes.

[Aida]

Mary, I just wondered if you made it out the door this morning, with your cat?

If you have time, read my thread: calling the cops on suicide attempt. At the bottom, I wrote about you.

Keeping a good thought...

Aida

[Maryiscontrary]

Aida, thanks much for caring. Really.

Yes, I am leaving in a few minute.

He has changed his mind from moving cross country with no plans set up...to...visiting his mom. Visiting mom is a good thing. Maybe he can clear his head.

I will clear mind.

Thanks so much again.

[Aida]

Mary,

I do care. Travel safely.

I wrote to you on my old thread. I was wondering what you did, specificly, to heal yourself--cherish yourself--to build your self-esteem.

Aida

[Aida]

Mary,

Still wondering...

[Maryiscontrary]

Yes,I am in the middle of nowhere, in west Texas, with the coolest bunch of eclectic long term friends. Always a party, always a place to stay. Nice to be around people that have reasonable control over thought processes.

My spouse is in the pull mode. I find it much easier to validate and reflectively listen when there is a 1000mile distance between us.

Hope you are well. Thanks so much for your thoughts.

[Maryiscontrary]

Oh, and many problems vanish with strict practice of mindfullness...that is, paying attention to sensations without judgement until they dissipate.

[Steph]

Oh, and many problems vanish with strict practice of mindfullness...that is, paying attention to sensations without judgement until they dissipate.

 You got that right! 

[Maryiscontrary]

I wanted to give an update.

I have been away for 9 days to this magical town with many, many good friends.

The expressions of love has been overwhelming. I am so used to sucking up crap from my own family and spouse, that it is indeed shocking to be in a place where I have many friends who support me like family. I have been invited to parties and get togethers every night since I have been here. I have not had to pay one night for a hotel room. I am humbled. This indeed feels like real life.

My better half, after threatening to move cross country at least 20 times, settled on just visiting his family...which he wanted to do for months. I could not get him to actually go until I left town myself.

God, this was such a toxic situation. It is so tragic that he is so damn sick from a multifaceted angle and that he absolutely refuses to get help. He really is a valuable person, with many good qualities, but this self loathing that bleeds into psychosis, blame, projection, and terrible decision making is just too much for me.

I just cannot imagine a bright future for him at all unless he gets some serious help. I have accepted that I could be made a widow.

Forget about us...the tragedy of the hell he has made for himself is heartbreaking. so talented, so much to add to the world.

I have an open heart should he decide to pursue some effective treatment. I am in no hurry.

[Dynamic]

Mary,
I am so glad that you are having such a good time healing yourself.   That took real guts to move yourself from that place & take a trip.   I am sure I would not have the courage to do that if I were in your situation. 

It is some progress that your h is visiting family. Hopefully the change of scene would work wonders. If not, it is still better that he came out & being in company instead of being in solitude & neglecting himself.

Hopefully he will realize the seriousness of the situation & seek help.
Take care.

[Maryiscontrary]

Thanks so much. We love each other very, very much. This is tough love...that is, love that is not enabling. It is very twilight zone like. Until he develops a sense of healthy self love and respect, I cannot be near him. When there is no sense of basic self respect, he cannot receive and express love properly.

The seeds of a healthy bond emerge from self respect.

[Steph]

Thanks so much. We love each other very, very much. This is tough love...that is, love that is not enabling. It is very twilight zone like. Until he develops a sense of healthy self love and respect, I cannot be near him. When there is no sense of basic self respect, he cannot receive and express love properly.

The seeds of a healthy bond emerge from self respect.

   We have a close friend who lived with us for about 3 years. He has similar symptoms that you have described from your H. His diagnosis is schizoaffective disorder. He is brilliant..was a child prodigy musician, an artist, and a singer. Played with symphonies until the symptoms took over.

  I wish we had a happy ending to share. He ended up moving from our house when the symptoms became too severe..the paranoia, awake all night, screaming at us in the middle of the night, and us needing to call the police a few times. He is currently in the hospital, after living in a group home this past year, and has been in there almost 6 weeks now.

  Obviously, I dont know if your H has the same stuff, but I sure see similarities and I understand the love. My H and I love our friend, and we remain his friends, see him often and care deeply. Yet, we, too, had to reach a place where it was unhealthy for ALL of us to continue on. I cannot describe..likely dont need to...how challening it was to live with this literal insane stuff, and to be acused of manipulating an implant inside his brain, etc.. and even with treatment, the symptoms recur.

  Our friend managed to have some really good months, and convinced his psychiatrist he didnt need the antopsychotic that was keeping him feeling better..hence, his return to the psych unit this time. Its taking a very long time to get him stable again.

 Anyway, I think I can relate. I know its heartbreaking and very, very hard. I cant imagine being the spouse of our friend ( he doesnt have one, but he could have..his symptoms didnt start to be disabling until he was in his 20s...He is a really nice looking guy and people took an interest. Now, the dirty and smelly clothes, the rarely washed hair, etc...tend to put people off and do show him to be the mentally ill guy he is.)

  SO glad you took this trip and are seeing your way into reality!

Steph

[Maryiscontrary]

This must have been extremely difficult for you. Especially with the added issues you had with your husband. My husbands delusions have to do with police and the cat. There does not seem to be delusions of reference. He is 49, and as far as I know, he did not have these issues when he was younger.

This is what make me think that there is an organic component, like temporal lobe seizures...but also issue due to being an aspie, having violent trauma...murder attempt and extortion, having huge uncontrollable  losses, and of course, BPD type of dysregulation..which could be PTSD. Huge abandonment and object contancey issues. But also issues with memory and florid psychosis. And issues with reading social situations and others intentions properly.


I feel like I have stared into the abyss of madness. I have stared into my own madness years ago and then that of my husbands. I will never the the same again. I am uncertain that I will every want a committed relationship again, should I have to let this one go. I am uncertain that there is really any benefit to this.

[Maryiscontrary]

If you read the history of van gogh...the similarities are disturbing and difficult to think about. Same with john Nash.

[Aida]

Mary,

I think of Van Gogh often. My SO is a brilliant artist and writer, with an IQ of 170, yet she can't earn a cent. She works all night and sleeps in fits and starts. Her diagnosis of bipolar manifests itself in streaks of grandiose ideation where she seems to be on top of the world, but a moment later, she is spiraling down into suicidal despair.

This board has enlightened me about the ways in which I have stoked the fire of her madness, and since then, I have realized that the only way I will survive is to find my own way a part from her. I don't mean I am leaving her. I don't even live with her.  I mean psychologcially and emotionally . She is not presently in the state of psychoisis you have had to come to terms with in your husband. But sometimes I wonder...

She has all the red flags for BPD: sexual abuse from more than one adult as a child, neglect, a NBPD mother, physically abusive husband for 15 years, and huge abandonment issues ( Her  birth mother sent her on a bus to another state when she was three to go live with an abusive adoptive mother; essentially her birth mother--a cocaine addict--sold her).

I have had to take a good look at myself and determine what I am willing to live with and which boundaries are imperative for my own survival, and hers, because we have become so emeshed over the years.

I am still thinking about how you said that you felt this lovely, healthy energy from people who can give and receive love like normanl people, after you packed up your cat and minimal belongings and reached your destination. You sound so decisive. I'm sure a great deal of mental and emotional growth occurred before your came to this place of clarity. You love your husband but you know what you have to do for your own survival and, perhaps, even his.

I'm still learning to be seperate from the madness and realize the insanity of my own mind that has put me here. To say that I have low self-esteem seems so trite. duh! It's so much more complicated than that.

I live with my husband, and I love him. He is my dear friend of 30 years and the father of my daughters, grown with healthy loving relationships of their own. They have advanced degrees and careers they love. I'd like to grow up to be like them.

The woman I speak about on this board with such intensity, she is my van gogh. She is my Starry Night. A moment in her starlight is worth a lifetime of mediocrity. I just unzipped myself. I hope I am safe, here, with my skin inside out.

Mary, what are you going to do next? Where are you going live? What will you do for your life's work? Perhaps thats too personal and way too many questions you don't have to answer. I have been thinking about you ever since your first post. I truly care about this neck of the journey for you. keep in touch.

Lovingly,
Aida

[Maryiscontrary]

I very much appreciate your thoughts and feelings. I do appreciate everybody's support here. I thank all of you.

My husband and I have a successful Internet business together. I had to vastly decrease the activity, because he was making so many mistakes. We can do the low level activity while apart. Of course, he feels persecuted that I had to do this, and not because I saved the damn business. He thinks I am just being mean.  I had to do this to keep the damn thing from crashing.

This vortex I am in in west Texas is a very unusual place. I am not sure why, but there is a huge presence of object contancey here. A lot of people...usually intellectual and corporate burnouts...who flee to this place see the same thing, so this isn't just a personal musing.

Over and over, there are long running offbeat pranks and jokes the close friends pull on each other for a period of years or decades. For instance, I have two friends that I have known each other for 50 years. I made a birthday cake 5years ago for one of them, and the other one, just to get the others goat, ate most of this birthday cake.

Well, these was this humorous fake incredulous ness that the so called offended friend beings u p every time he sees the so called offended friend. Nonstop ribbing over 5years.

Object constancy. So I am settling this so called "dispute" by making 5 cakes. This is just like a Seinfeld episode. So 10 years from now, I will be remembered for settling this very humorous dispute.

There are too many example to bring up. But it is pervasive and very noticeable. It is like a funky version of the Last Picture Show...but with oddballs and eccentrics.

So these people welcome me home, literally dozens of them. I haven't lived here in 5 years...but these people greet me at the door like a beloved pet after an absence.

This is a very, very wealthy part of the country, but since it is based on oil and gas, it has gone though some devastating booms and busts. So you may be having coffee with a country boy or gal...and they may be worth 100 million, but you would never know, since they drive 1987 Chevy pickups. So you have what looks like redneck country people discussing economics, politics and religion, and also local gossip.

These people know the type of person I am, and they have welcomed me. I have not had to get a hotel, since they want me to stay at their homes. Nonstop parties every night at someone's ranch or house.

I guess the thing is that I am around empathetic people with a very strong since of object contancey. My own family and husband do not have these qualities, and I really felt my energies going into a black hole. My friends here are very protective and very validating. And I didn't realize how exhausted I was being around my dysregulated family...my father, brother, husband, mother, grandmother...etc. and the deaths in very recent times and the massive losses really make these people really disfunctional.

[Dynamic]

Mary,
Your getaway place sounds fun & serving the purpose well. Wish I had a place like that.

Loved reading about the pranks. It must be like going back to high school days after all these years. Was it your offended friend or h that brings up the prank constantly for 5 years? I could not understand that from your post.

Hope you have more fun during your refreshing, much needed break. 

[Maryiscontrary]

Dear dynamic...these were between two old friends that I knew before I met my husband. This is a very different culture here.


 I feel very blessed for this opportunity to do introspection. I very much thank the very generous folks here for the support.

I feel like I am in the twilight zone. My husbands mood seems to be good, which makes me happy...though I am uncertain of his mental status. He quality of work with the business has been decent, which is much better than it was.

I have been very fortunate to be around a very special group of smart friends here that are very empathetic. That is, they have a very well developed sense of empathy and emotional maturity. They seemed to see that I was in worse shape than I thought I was, and do not want me to leave. They are very concerned for my safety and health, as they know I have been working extremely hard and have has multiple losses in recent times.

I am not used to having people care for me. I am used to having to be the big man with a stiff upper lip around people who are dysregulating and not emotionally healthy. I am not used to my needs being met by people who actually care.

I speak to my father in another state, who has had severe empathy issues, but is trying to actually grow after nearly dying from septic MRSA superbug infection last year, and I feel like I am speaking to an emotional cripple. He cannot hold together a solid relationship after my mother has died, and he is truly hurt and mystified. He doesn't realize how poor his interations skills are regarding emotional topics, despite being highly articulate. He is trying, and I am slowing teaching him my new ways of no confrontational communicating...many of the tools as outlined on this board. However, I just don't feel comfortable spending long times with him, because he is manipulative, a narcissist with attachment issues...and he tends to revert. But he is trying.

I use these non violent communication tools with everyone. Friends, customers, my family, my husband.

I have noticed that my empathetically talented friends very much respond to these tools, and I can get my thoughts across and my needs met. I can meet their needs by listening closely and reflectively. I get more sales with customers. 

I think using these communication technique with my husband may have possibly prevented suicide, or become a disconcerted homeless guy who blew through his savings, and prevented the destruction of our business. I think that these non confrontational techniques made a really tragic situation less tragic. But still not without tragedy.


Life is so rich when you can perceive and give empathy and object constancy. It is really something for people here to think about. To really contemplate the implications of being able to utilize these qualities. If you live in a personal world without these, you feel like nothing...empty, and you feel your world is unstable.

To be able to generate a mental set of another's emotional state, and to hold these emotional expressions in memory over time...this is what gives life subjective purpose and stability.