BPD vs. physical disabilities

[Think About It...]

   Hi,

I hope you don't mind my jumping in. I've pondered over that analogy a lot, and it used to anger me a lot. I've just realized why the analogy bothered me so much. To me, it has two fatal flaws that are directly related to the problems with dealing with a person with BPD: (1) Everybody can see that the person is in a wheelchair, and (2) the person in the wheelchair isn't trying to fool everybody that he isn't in a wheelchair. Now that I've read the other posts in the thread, I agree that there is a third flaw with the analogy: the person in the wheelchair isn't trying to beat you to death with it.

This last one tops them all. As others have said, we didn't vow to stay in an abusive marriage. In my view, the abuser has voided the marriage contract.

I also don't think anybody would expect a person to live with a person in a wheelchair who pretends that they aren't in a wheelchair. This sounds like abuse. Agreement breached.


My 2 cents worth.

AnotherPheonix
 

[AnotherPhoenix]

   Hi,

I hope you don't mind my jumping in. I've pondered over that analogy a lot, and it used to anger me a lot. I've just realized why the analogy bothered me so much. To me, it has two fatal flaws that are directly related to the problems with dealing with a person with BPD: (1) Everybody can see that the person is in a wheelchair, and (2) the person in the wheelchair isn't trying to fool everybody that he isn't in a wheelchair. Now that I've read the other posts in the thread, I agree that there is a third flaw with the analogy: the person in the wheelchair isn't trying to beat you to death with it.

This last one tops them all. As others have said, we didn't vow to stay in an abusive marriage. In my view, the abuser has voided the marriage contract.

I also don't think anybody would expect a person to live with a person in a wheelchair who pretends that they aren't in a wheelchair. This sounds like abuse. Agreement breached.


My 2 cents worth.

AnotherPheonix
 

[FriedaB]

If  the  person  in  the  wheelchair  kept  splitting  you  black,  stealing,  lying,  cheating  and  threatening  restraining  orders  when  caught,  yeah  id  dump  them  too...

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for analyzing and making the decision to either continue working on your relationship or to leave it. If you have already please advance to "L3 Leaving" or the "L4 Staying" board. All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[NeedHelpGR]

AnotherPheonix,

I'm glad you jumped in!

 Hi,

(1) Everybody can see that the person is in a wheelchair, and (2) the person in the wheelchair isn't trying to fool everybody that he isn't in a wheelchair.

AnotherPheonix,

I'm glad you jumped in!

Good point with #1, I hadn't thought of that.  My wife has Jekkyl & Hyde behavior.  If were to tell people how she sometimes behaves, they'd never believe me.

Since I'm pretty new to BPD, I have a question about your second point.  Do people who have it intentionally and consciously try to fool others?   

[numenal]

"Since I'm pretty new to BPD, I have a question about your second point.  Do people who have it intentionally and consciously try to fool others? "

It is generally known that people with BPD use control, deceit and manipulation (as well as humiliation) regularly to preserve their sense of being okay. Some people use the word "survival" when referring to a BPs negative/wayward/disturbing behaviors. For example, a BP might try to control others due to feeling out of control, therefore keeping the BP from capsizing in a sea of chaos, shame and self hatred.

I don't fully agree with the survival term with regard to BPs though. As I understand it psychologically, people tend to harm others in areas they have been harmed themselves. To address the question, yes, it is known that many BPs intentionally fool others, hurt others, lie to others, manipulate and control others. For many, though the behaviors are compulsive, they are conscious.

[NeedHelpGR]

Thanks for clarifying numenal.  I didn't know the behaviors of a person with BPD were a conscious decision.  I guess that's another way BPD differs from a physical disability. 

[AnotherPhoenix]

Hello  Hi!,

Numenal, is correct about trying to preserve their sense of being ok. BPDs sense that there there's something going on with them that they don't like and they know that they do crazy things. Bpds also usually have very low self-esteem and usually think of things as "all good" or all bad". These last two characteristics keeps many of them stuck! Many BPDs find it extremely hard to understand with the concept of being ok even though you have flaws (minor ones that are harmless can be tolerated at times)--that doesn't compute for them--a person is good or bad. That's the only two possibilities. But, BPDs do have flaws like everybody else. Because of their low self-esteem, thinking of themselves as "bad" is intolerable. So, they have to think of themselves as good. Which means they have to deny that they have flaws. They have to deny this to themselves because they can't tolerate the thought that they are "bad"--who could? And, they have to deny this to everybody else because of their low self-esteem. Their low self-estem can't allow other people to think they have faults either, because then that person would thing the BPD was "bad". So, they do everything they can to keep everybody else from thinking they have faults.

Now, the BPD really has a problem when he/she makes a poor choice and something undesirable happens because of it. Not the BPD, because then the BPD would be bad! But, somebody had to make that choice, so, the BPD chooses a victim to cast the blame onto and tries to make sure that the victim takes the blame. Once that is done, the BPD is good.

I once asked my BPD wife raged at me when she did something that frustrated her. Her response was because there wasn't anybody else around  .

A funnier example that might really show my wife's inability to accept that she's doing something wrong. My wife and I were playing nintendo. I would win a couple of games in a row and she would start complaining about her control not working. Mine was working fine. After a couple more games, I got tired of her complaining and switched controls with her. I had no problem with the remote she was using. I win a few more games.  Now the remote that was working fine for me isn't working for her. After a few more games I got tired of her complaining again, and I switch remotes with her so we each had our original remote. I win a couple more games. Now her original remote, which worked fine for me isn't working correctly again! It couldn't be her that was wrong.

AnotherPheonix
 

AnotherPheonix

 

[NeedHelpGR]

Hey AnotherPhoenix,   Hi!

Good stories.  I'm about 3/4 through reading Walking On Eggshells, and what you shared ties in perfectly.  I just wasn't aware that BPD's makes conscious decisions about their behavior.  I thought it was more like being in a wheelchair -- the person doesn't have a choice.

Before I knew about BPD, I got tired of my wife pointing out all my faults one day.  I asked her if she thought she was perfect.  To her credit, she said, "no, I'm not perfect".  I now realize how hard that must have been for her to admit.

[Mauser]

I think the whole "making conscious decisions" is a bit of a grey area, and there is a whole range. One one end, there is cold, calculating, plotting and manipulative... on the other is to disassociating and not having clue one what they are doing.  A lot falls in between. This is where "feelings = facts" come in, the twisting of history, etc.

pwBPD might break up with you and kick you to the curb... but if he (today) hates you and always has (in his mind), why should he stick around?

Another thought is, there is only so much we (all of us, not just pwBPD) can consciously control before our instincts take over. For example, I hate spiders. I scream and wig out. But I try to change my behavior because that's what people expect- they say "get over it" or "what's a little spider going to do?"  I personally am just fine running out of the room like a sissy- but it isn't what others are comfortable with.  So to put up a good front, I try to tame my inner emotions and fears and act calm. Getting close enough to calmly squash the spider with a shoe takes incredible control on my part.  But I can only push myself and face my fears so far before flight or fight takes hold and I run away screaming.

[nomom4me]

Hi, I am usually over on the family board because the special BPD in my life is my mom, but as a disabled person I'd like to chime in on this. My mom claims memory problems with things like my physical limitations and topics people don't like to discuss, and I have told her to see a Dr. about her memory.

I spend about 25% of my time sick, and another 25% dealing with my healthcare.  When my mother is that attentive to her disease, she can be excused for her "memory problems".  She refuses to seek care and is dismissive of my health issues, so I treat her like the threat to my health and sanity she is.

[NeedHelpGR]

nomom4me,

Your screen name made me sad. 

What a tough situation it sounds like you're in.  I can't imagine a mother who would be dismissive of the health issues of her own child.  But I can't imagine having BPD and being a parent, either.

I wish you lots of strength!   Hi!     

[NeedHelpGR]

I think the whole "making conscious decisions" is a bit of a grey area, and there is a whole range.

I think you're right, Mauser.  It sometimes seems like my uBPD/NPDw is being manipulative and knows exactly what she's doing.  For example, if she and I and our S10 are sitting in the same room she'll direct all of her conversation to him.  "S10, what do you think we should do this weekend?" or "S10, what would you like for dinner?".  It's like I'm not even in the room, or invisible.  That's a conscious decision.

At other times, I think W loses all control.  Particularly during rages.  I can look into her eyes, and see a person I don't even recognize.  Anything she says or does from that point on appears to be beyond her control.  

[numenal]

A lot of the quotes from BPs in Randi Kreger's book have the BP saying they know they are behaving badly, even during a rage, but that their emotions start going out of control. That's what I mean by compulsive but conscious.

Mixed in with the planned manipulation or verbal/emotional abuse, minus the decision to seek treatment, and you have a r/s or marriage no one should be expected to put up with.

[nomom4me]

A lot of the quotes from BPs in Randi Kreger's book have the BP saying they know they are behaving badly, even during a rage, but that their emotions start going out of control. That's what I mean by compulsive but conscious.

Mixed in with the planned manipulation or verbal/emotional abuse, minus the decision to seek treatment, and you have a r/s or marriage no one should be expected to put up with.

Well put, Numenal it's the planned manipulation that makes it hard for me to say "oh, she didn't mean it - thats he illness talking" did the the illness sit up all night writing a 3 page email?  Did her illness plan a party and not invite me?  As someone who drags myself to therapy and acupuncture weekly, even when I don't feel like going - on top of regular monthly Dr's visits, I find it hard to believe that someone who is suffering that much does not want treatment. 

Needhelp, thanks for the comments. My mom has dealt with some of the same health issues I have, and most of my medical issues have been present since childhood.  It's the lack of empathy that made me put up walls.