Is this part of narcissism at work?

[Think About It...]

I have a question-
Before we got engaged-my then bf had *issues* with me.
He felt I wasn't pretty enough, rich enough...not enough of a trophy gf, basically.
for the record-I look great and I am not ashamed of my body or my looks or my attractiveness.

he even had to do a 4th and  5th step inventory about this with his sponsor..and the jist of it was that He was wanting to *be with somebody BETTER, so that people would think better of HIM*(his words not mine)

Money and appearances meant everything to him-and that wasn't so long ago.
I only found this out AFTER we got married. He used to pick on me about looks-but I thought he was just critical and picky!(and wanted to be dating a super model) he was just as critical about his own looks. In a vain and shallow way.

As time passed he displayed so many unpleasant behaviors around not wanting to admit we were a couple, living together, or engaged.
He has no trouble admitting I am now his wife.(after a year!)

Is this part of narcissism at work?

I am unclear whether his rages are NPD or BPD related...he claims to want counseling, but I don't want to go if I will be blamed for all that's wrong here.

GL

[gina louise]

I have a question-
Before we got engaged-my then bf had *issues* with me.
He felt I wasn't pretty enough, rich enough...not enough of a trophy gf, basically.
for the record-I look great and I am not ashamed of my body or my looks or my attractiveness.

he even had to do a 4th and  5th step inventory about this with his sponsor..and the jist of it was that He was wanting to *be with somebody BETTER, so that people would think better of HIM*(his words not mine)

Money and appearances meant everything to him-and that wasn't so long ago.
I only found this out AFTER we got married. He used to pick on me about looks-but I thought he was just critical and picky!(and wanted to be dating a super model) he was just as critical about his own looks. In a vain and shallow way.

As time passed he displayed so many unpleasant behaviors around not wanting to admit we were a couple, living together, or engaged.
He has no trouble admitting I am now his wife.(after a year!)

Is this part of narcissism at work?

I am unclear whether his rages are NPD or BPD related...he claims to want counseling, but I don't want to go if I will be blamed for all that's wrong here.

GL

[Clearmind]

gina, I am not sure if its BPD or NPD - it does sound controlling though! Borderlines can be controlling and criticise - like you said - it bolsters his failing ego.

I am pleased that you are not taking much notice of what he is saying about you - because its not about you at all.

I am unclear whether his rages are NPD or BPD related...he claims to want counseling, but I don't want to go if I will be blamed for all that's wrong here.

Can you help me understand what you mean?

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for analyzing and making the decision to either continue working on your relationship or to leave it. If you have already please advance to "L3 Leaving" or the "L4 Staying" board. All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[NewPhoenixRising]

Is this part of narcissism at work?

I am unclear whether his rages are NPD or BPD related...he claims to want counseling, but I don't want to go if I will be blamed for all that's wrong here.

I would agree with Clearmind here.  It's difficult to say whether his rejections of your appearance and wealth would be NPD, BPD, or some other PD - and rages can come from most PDs.  What is important is that they are certainly abusive behaviors.  Nobody deserves to be judged that harshly.  

What is it that he wants counseling for ?  How does he address the subject of counseling ?

[gina louise]

Oh- I apologize for being unclear!

He's mentioned marriage counseling-although he claimed it didn't save his first marriage.
he says we are not a *team* and we have communication issues.(ya think?)

Here's a typical recent exchange:

Me: I feel disappointed that we didn't go shopping today and out to lunch as we planned with couple XYZ. I wish you would have told me sooner-before I got all ready to go. I was waiting for you to get ready, and I hadn't realized that the plans changed!

Him:<sarcastically> OH WOW I LET YOU DOWN AGAIN! OH Nooooooo OH BOY. HOW SAD! I AM SOOOOO SORRY. LETS HAVE YOU START MAKING PLANS FOR A CHANGE! HOW DOES THAT SOUND? WHY DON"T YOU DO SOMETHING FOR A CHANGE?
matter of fact... WHAT DO YOU DO AROUND HERE? I DO EVERYTHING!
oh , thanks for cleaning the house, doing the dishes, laundry and making the beds.
BUT HOW ABOUT YOU TAKE OVER, HUH? I WILL WAIT ON YOU TO MAKE ALL THE PLANS FROM NOW ON! 
<cue the sarcastic yelling, mocking...and rage> he went on and on all day-then *secretly* via text invited his 3 kids over for dinner, as a drastic change of plan and did not include me in the planning...of either the old cancelled plans OR the new dinner with kids plan.

It's just irrational and unreasonable. He's a tyrant and a bully..and I tell him so.

GL

[buterfly]

The conversation you just posted literally makes me sick to my stomach as I have heard those exact words come out of my husbands mouth! 

If I can remember right (from what I have read) people can exhibit both BPD and NPD characteristics.  I suppose either way it's a personality disorder. 

However, I will say that my husband also acts as though I should be a trophy wife.  There was a recent post on here about the grass always being greener, and I consider his comments about your looks to be just that type of idealization.  Let me guess, 'he is just trying to help you.'  I remember something you said to me a little while ago, 'they always tell us what's wrong with us, when in fact they are far from perfect themselves.'  This statement helped me remember that I am better than that, and that I can be proud of who I am, but then again, I still struggle with his comments every day. 

[gina louise]

buterfly,
Sorry to affect you-I know how it is.   

I wanted to give OC and NewPhoenix a taste of what I had to sit with this weekend.
that's a very typical exchange. he becomes very sarcastic and attacking. I can barely reply-he's so loud and ranting.

My H does notice his weight, his waistline, his thinning hair, his skin- he said he can literally FEEL it starting to sag and wrinkle! I thought that was just freaky.

I am cute, look very young for my age, wear makeup and keep my hair neat-but I am no supermodel.
And I don't spend gobs of cash on my clothes or accessories-Target/Old Navy is just peachy for me.

While H, on the other hand wants to look like a GQ model. He redoes his wardrobe about twice a year-I mean discards most of his *old* clothes/shoes and replaces them. though they are far from old or used! He will never shop at Target. Too *low rent* for him.

My Ex H used to refuse to buy me anything. I paid ALL my own bills and quite a bit for the house too. His refrain was...don't you already HAVE a T shirt? He would argue over buying me an $8.00 shirt at Target-because I already had something similar. But he shopped at the brand name Outlet stores or Macy's. LOL weirdos!

GL

[NewPhoenixRising]

he claims to want counseling, but I don't want to go if I will be blamed for all that's wrong here.

I think if you decide to go to couples counseling, you're going to have to be very clear on what your boundaries are going in.  And you're going to have to be prepared to clarify to the counselor if you disagree with something.  You should also prepare going in - to review the list of his behaviors that are offensive to you.  It's important the counselor gets a good snapshot of your end of the story.  Because if he does have strong PD characteristics, there's a very good chance he will be trying to make you the one who is the original 'cause' of conflict.

[Randi Kreger]

I have a question-
Before we got engaged-my then bf had *issues* with me.
He felt I wasn't pretty enough, rich enough...not enough of a trophy gf, basically.
for the record-I look great and I am not ashamed of my body or my looks or my attractiveness.

he even had to do a 4th and  5th step inventory about this with his sponsor..and the jist of it was that He was wanting to *be with somebody BETTER, so that people would think better of HIM*(his words not mine)

Money and appearances meant everything to him-and that wasn't so long ago.
I only found this out AFTER we got married. He used to pick on me about looks-but I thought he was just critical and picky!(and wanted to be dating a super model) he was just as critical about his own looks. In a vain and shallow way.

As time passed he displayed so many unpleasant behaviors around not wanting to admit we were a couple, living together, or engaged.
He has no trouble admitting I am now his wife.(after a year!)

Is this part of narcissism at work?

I am unclear whether his rages are NPD or BPD related...he claims to want counseling, but I don't want to go if I will be blamed for all that's wrong here.

GL

As to his rages, NPs rage often as part of criticism that you're not "good enough," while BPs rage at some thought that you abandon them mentally or practically.

It is very important to know if you are dealing with a narcissist, a BP or both. They both use different strategies, and sometimes different tools need to be used.

[gina louise]

Randi,
My H's rages mostly erupt over a perceived slight or criticism. from me to him. Other friends or family can say or do anything. Not me.
I can say "too bad we didn't go much out last summer as we were both unemployed" which is a valid historical fact...but all he will hear is me calling him a total failure for NEVER taking me out! Not what I said at all.
Once he senses a trigger he will blow.
Then he fumes, rages, blames, degrades, calls names, curses... when I never intended to provoke him at all. He has triangulated me with other female friends. they are always wonderful and perfect. I am  then negative and a nag.

He has impulsive spending,  past alcohol/substance abuse, reckless, dangerous driving when agitated or upset, he picks and scratches at his skin til he bleeds, he's very self loathing of his own looks and body (yet he's attractive!) he texts and calls me constantly and will often go into panic mode and call repeatedly (ten times in an hour) if I don't pick up. he seems very clingy and dependent at times-but despises me at others... Depending on how he feels I am reacting to him.
His plans flip, then flop.
He's All or Nothing. Either the restaurant is terrific or we are Never eating there again!
Things are either all good or all bad.

He claims he will pay for things for me (hair done, manicure, new clothes) but has invalidated those sorts of promises in the past.
Money and finances are a flash point for him. Yet he projects that onto me. I don't fuss about money at all. I am cautious about saving and spending-and rational about what I can do.
I know my limits and stay within my budget. He can't.

The validation using SET works wonders as long as I catch myself early and do not use JADE.

Since we married I have confronted him on his behavior that makes us seem *not a couple* -his flimsy boundaries with other women as friends, his self centered actions, verbal rages and abuse. He has made efforts to review and address his behavior. He recognizes that nobody deserves to be screamed at and attacked. I never screamed back, always stayed calm.
But every few days or weeks I say or do the *wrong thing.* and it's always something different.
And I feel that I am the one who cannot say what I feel, or say what I *need* to.
it's a lot of effort, to watch every word, every action and reaction I have.
thanks,
GL

[gina louise]

Oh Randi,
I forgot to mention that very often I sense that he is telling me carefully crafted stories of what he feels will calm/placate me. As though I am stupid!
He may not be lying -but he eliminates a lot of what really happened.
He gaslights too.

example: he was flirting in NA with a married woman that I suspect he tried to leave me for at a later date. She invited him to *share* his story at an NA meeting. I was not included.
After the meeting he picked me up from shopping and said  *You won't have to worry about HER anymore, ALL I talked about was how great my life is going with my new GF (me) and how good you are for me ...and on and on* riiiiight.
I didn't buy it, at all.
that's exactly WHY I DO have to worry about her and people like her, with him.

GL

[husband1111]

I agree.  I am the kind of person that doesn't feel comfortable wearing brand name clothes (unless I got them at prices like the $8 target shirt).  

What did happen though was that my wife bought me an entire new wardrobe for christmas, but didn't leave anything left in the family budget for me to buy her any clothes.  Then the other day she got on my case about wearing the same shoes every day when she bought me 10 pairs.  I don't even know what to do with 10 pairs of shoes.  

Another point I want to make is a matter of perspective.  My example here is this:

My perspective:  Our TV broke, I priced out parts to repair it since we don't REALLY have money to buy a new tv right now.  If we decide to go new, I would be happy with a mid level model, essentially whatever is a good value, but we can't really afford the monthly payment, so once I have a little extra cash I will just buy the parts and fix myself or pay someone to do it.  

My Wife's perspective:  Our TV broke, my husband wants the best of everything so I will buy him the best reviewed TV on the market that my credit can buy.  

Neither of us are truly all that upset that she bought the latest and greatest new tv (for now), , but in arguments she will remind me that she bought me this TV that *I* had to have, when I buy her nothing and when I do it is on her credit (I trashed my credit and preserved hers, and am the sole income earner currently).    


So, who has the correct perspective? It seems that it can shift from NPD to BPD depending on who you ask.  

[Randi Kreger]

Randi,
My H's rages mostly erupt over a perceived slight or criticism. from me to him. Other friends or family can say or do anything. Not me.
I can say "too bad we didn't go much out last summer as we were both unemployed" which is a valid historical fact...but all he will hear is me calling him a total failure for NEVER taking me out! Not what I said at all.
Once he senses a trigger he will blow.
Then he fumes, rages, blames, degrades, calls names, curses... when I never intended to provoke him at all. He has triangulated me with other female friends. they are always wonderful and perfect. I am  then negative and a nag.

He has impulsive spending,  past alcohol/substance abuse, reckless, dangerous driving when agitated or upset, he picks and scratches at his skin til he bleeds, he's very self loathing of his own looks and body (yet he's attractive!) he texts and calls me constantly and will often go into panic mode and call repeatedly (ten times in an hour) if I don't pick up. he seems very clingy and dependent at times-but despises me at others... Depending on how he feels I am reacting to him.
His plans flip, then flop.
He's All or Nothing. Either the restaurant is terrific or we are Never eating there again!
Things are either all good or all bad.

He claims he will pay for things for me (hair done, manicure, new clothes) but has invalidated those sorts of promises in the past.
Money and finances are a flash point for him. Yet he projects that onto me. I don't fuss about money at all. I am cautious about saving and spending-and rational about what I can do.
I know my limits and stay within my budget. He can't.

The validation using SET works wonders as long as I catch myself early and do not use JADE.

Since we married I have confronted him on his behavior that makes us seem *not a couple* -his flimsy boundaries with other women as friends, his self centered actions, verbal rages and abuse. He has made efforts to review and address his behavior. He recognizes that nobody deserves to be screamed at and attacked. I never screamed back, always stayed calm.
But every few days or weeks I say or do the *wrong thing.* and it's always something different.
And I feel that I am the one who cannot say what I feel, or say what I *need* to.
it's a lot of effort, to watch every word, every action and reaction I have.
thanks,
GL

According to the latest statistics from Grant and Stinson, about 35-40 percent of people with BPD have NPD and the reverse. When someone has both, they can have both behaviors. So that's why you may be getting confused.

My latest book is for partners and it has to do with that combination.

What is JADE?

[gina louise]

Randi
thank you very much-I have been looking at both BPD and npd.

what gives me hope is that he's aware of how his anger is destructive and harmful to our marriage.
he  knows it's hurtful to me personally as well.(though he rationalizes that I *provoke* him)
he is concerned enough to admit that his anger is beyond normal, and that he only acts this way with me,  usually in private.

I can create a boundary for myself or give him an awareness that his behaviors are harmful.
for example: if you begin to scream at me, I will leave. (the room, the area, the house...)
OR
please do not create or pursue *special friendships* with females in NA or AA as this is disrespectful to me and to OUR r/s...
OR
I would like to be included in your activities and not excluded when possible.(this was a sore point for a long time, even when we lived together before marriage he wanted to pretend he was still kinda single...that Npd part needs backup supply)

We are currently *working* on the behavior that he dismisses or changes plans at the last minute, no warning, no explanation. That habit-or whatever it is- has ruined so many fun activities, meals out and weekends. He never realized that when he challenged me to make plans he found something wrong with everything I chose, suggested or decided on. I lost no matter how I played it.
BUT, in general...
He's been prompt to examine his actions and our interactions, he's made significant changes that now include and value ME, as a person, as his wife. (introducing me to his close friends and insisting I be included in all activities, taking me to NA meetings and introducing me, being a gracious host to my kids when they visit ...) Supportive of my likes, activities and hobbies.
He easily says he loves me and shows it in a sincere way.

I still worry that he's having/creating those emotional affair type female friendships...and not telling me the truth. But I can't control that.

He's less likely to stay in a dysregulated state now, for more than a few hours or a day or two.
And I don't take his crazy yelling as personally. I have never yelled back.

JADE= Justify, Accuse, Defend...and Explain.   Using those (justifying, accusing, defending or explaining) Towards a person who is starting to become emotionally dysregulated makes things so much worse!  and it's SO difficult NOT to! but it really works.

When I can say to myself..OK-I don't need to win, make him understand or agree with me. I just need to validate HIS emotional state right now before we implode here.
If I get to his rational brain first...with SET. (I think that's Support, Empathy and Truth) by saying something even as simple as *I would FEEL that way too if that's what I heard! you have every right to feel XYZ after what I said/did. I didn't mean to upset you* it's like a light switch for his upset emotional state. Flips it right off.
He usually says THANK YOU, and I love you b/c YOU get me! so we both feel better.   

thanks,
GL

[krista8521]

Hi Gina,

I have experinced so much of what you have posted.
I think he has a very low self esteem.

They start to believe that they are not responsible for anything, and when things go wrong on any level "it's all your fault"

Then they get this bitter attitude like you ruined their life and they reflect it in critisms and attacks.

I noticed he did the old divert game, when you stated the disappointment over plan changes.
He raged, yelled over you and then went on to a subject about house work, what he was saying is, yeah, I screwed up the plans, but you do this, so who are you to judge me.
Its total emotional imaturity.
Let me give you a value piece of advice and save you years of agony.
Its real simple:
When he starts that raging at you, yelling, simply get up and walk off.
If he is a follower, grab your purse and walk out, get in your car and drive off.
Lock the doors when you get in and dont pay attention to him if he is outside the car raging.
Simply drive off.
I took years of that, someone told me to do this and after 2-3 times the yelling stopped.
Learn, learn, and learn about this disorder and get yourself in a good emotional position to not be abused any more.

[UnknownBPD]

I hear everything you are saying!  Although undiagnosed (he will never go to therapy or admit he has any kind of problem) I am certain my H has both narcissistic and borderline traits. Sometimes he seems so normal but just when I get comfortable one or both rear their ugly heads.

And I think I am finally understanding the true meaning of gas lighting.  I have questioned my memory about things for a long time.  It's not the best, but that said, a whole lot of my memory is shaped by his recounting and I often doubt myself that I perceived things incorrectly.  But, recently he has totally mischarecterized a huge part of a personal relationship (family) that I am VERY clear on and is adamant that the status of this relationship is exactly how he says.  It's not true, but he won't hear it.  Now, I am left to either let him believe what he wants or take the brunt of his rage for telling him he's not correct.  It's my relationship. I know.

I am so slow because this has been the case with other relationships (these were romantic/semi romantic r/s).  It wasn't until years later that I understood that he thought they were so much more serious and meaningful than they were.  I don't know if he always thought this and just didn't say or if over time they just "grew" in his head or if he just figured it was a good way to "control" me.  But now it doesn't matter because it is what he believes and is a source of a great deal of anger.  He's actually told me that he's woken up from a dream and believed it was real and just been pi**ed off at me.  I think even these things become reality to him.  Anyone heard of that?

Also, I am really struggling with the validating.  I can say I hear what he's saying and that I understand why he would feel this way.  But he takes this as I'm agreeing with him.  While it is often over things I wouldn't even register as any big deal, it just seems to snowball into such a big deal to him.  If I give an inch he takes fifty miles.  How do I deal with that?

And I hear you on the JADE.  My H freaks if he thinks you try to justify anything.  Even if you get a different kind of milk.  When someone asks you why, for goodness sake don't you try to just answer?  They were out of it.  Why didn't you go somewhere else?  I didn't have time.  Why don't you budget your time better?  What were you doing all day?  Then you explain your day and hear that your inability to get the "right" milk goes right to the core of everything that is wrong with you. Huh?  What just happened?  Right down the line, JADE fuels the fire with my H.  What to do?

Finally, I have left when I can when he just flips, but I have kids so I can't always and I can't always just leave the house.  What do I do then?

I guess I am slowly wrapping my head around all that I need to do to get out b/c my hope of dealing with this is slowly fading.

Sorry if I high jacked your post.  My commiseration led to more questions.  Sorry again.

[husband1111]

I hear everything you are saying!  Although undiagnosed (he will never go to therapy or admit he has any kind of problem) I am certain my H has both narcissistic and borderline traits. Sometimes he seems so normal but just when I get comfortable one or both rear their ugly heads.

And I think I am finally understanding the true meaning of gas lighting.  I have questioned my memory about things for a long time.  It's not the best, but that said, a whole lot of my memory is shaped by his recounting and I often doubt myself that I perceived things incorrectly.  But, recently he has totally mischarecterized a huge part of a personal relationship (family) that I am VERY clear on and is adamant that the status of this relationship is exactly how he says.  It's not true, but he won't hear it.  Now, I am left to either let him believe what he wants or take the brunt of his rage for telling him he's not correct.  It's my relationship. I know.

I am so slow because this has been the case with other relationships (these were romantic/semi romantic r/s).  It wasn't until years later that I understood that he thought they were so much more serious and meaningful than they were.  I don't know if he always thought this and just didn't say or if over time they just "grew" in his head or if he just figured it was a good way to "control" me.  But now it doesn't matter because it is what he believes and is a source of a great deal of anger.  He's actually told me that he's woken up from a dream and believed it was real and just been pi**ed off at me.  I think even these things become reality to him.  Anyone heard of that?

Also, I am really struggling with the validating.  I can say I hear what he's saying and that I understand why he would feel this way.  But he takes this as I'm agreeing with him.  While it is often over things I wouldn't even register as any big deal, it just seems to snowball into such a big deal to him.  If I give an inch he takes fifty miles.  How do I deal with that?

And I hear you on the JADE.  My H freaks if he thinks you try to justify anything.  Even if you get a different kind of milk.  When someone asks you why, for goodness sake don't you try to just answer?  They were out of it.  Why didn't you go somewhere else?  I didn't have time.  Why don't you budget your time better?  What were you doing all day?  Then you explain your day and hear that your inability to get the "right" milk goes right to the core of everything that is wrong with you. Huh?  What just happened?  Right down the line, JADE fuels the fire with my H.  What to do?

Finally, I have left when I can when he just flips, but I have kids so I can't always and I can't always just leave the house.  What do I do then?

I guess I am slowly wrapping my head around all that I need to do to get out b/c my hope of dealing with this is slowly fading.

Sorry if I high jacked your post.  My commiseration led to more questions.  Sorry again.

Unknown,

I completely relate to how you are feeling.   I am going through the same thing myself.  This seems more BPD than NPD but I could be wrong because I see both traits in my wife, except that my wife plays down my past relationships  even more so than I do.

The gas lighting part, It is hard to remember things as they were when your spouse convinces you that it happened differently.  Unless I am away from my spouse, I can only remember what I did that she perceived as negative.  I lose sight of the good things or the things I did that completely prove my love to her, even when she denies it to be true.  And some things you just simply can't bring up without creating a snowball effect, I can't bring up the fact that I carried her near lifeless body to the car to rush her to the hospital after she OD'ed on sleeping pills.  Her BPD mother and I fought the hospital at the time from Baker Acting her, something I was reluctant to do at the time but after learning about BPD later realized that was the best choice to make at the time.  To this day she claims she just wanted to get some sleep and gets highly defensive if I bring it up. 

[gina louise]

Unknown-No problem! you didn't hijack anything.   

My H will gaslight about his past (inappropriate) r/s with women-He stated to me early on that he HAD indeed had intimate contact with his married *crush* in NA...before we met. But not actual sex.
I believe they carried on during the time he and I dated and then lived together before we got married, too.

When I brought it up months later-because their r/s was affecting OUR r/s and I strongly objected to that-he insisted that the make out session he had spoken of was WITH HER BEST FRIEND...and I had totally gotten it wrong! Nope. No, I did not.

I believe it's the idealizing of a partner who is *unavailable* and might need *rescuing*that was fuel to the fire. I never believed all that *just friends* crap.

He cannot stand that I or others might see him as less than noble, considerate and honest. but often he is anything but that!
He even takes credit for things I have purchased-it makes him look generous!

GL