Moving on, but still hanging on

[Think About It...]

What I was getting at is your childhood carry over seems to be to care for someone that smacks you upside the head over and over.  And you are blind to it.  'She told me that if I was on fire she'd work up the energy to spit in my general direction."  Really?  This indicates that your momma was somewhat negligent.  Could be wrong.  But when we are healthy, we usually pass on your gf's piss poor attempts to indicate that she cares in the slightest.  She sees you as pawn right now.  If you told her to take a flying leap, she'd probably have a lot more respect.  And there would be a slight glimmer of hope.  Your long discussions to her will read as blah blah blah.  C'mon they are three, short to the point sentences are pretty much all their psyches can take in.  Shape up or ship out.  And she'll say screw you.  You'll say fine.  And then she'll ping you...

It's so dysfunctional.  Do you have a therapist?

I think she was implying she had to go to the hospital for some sort of emergency -- that was the idea I got.

But, if I dig some more about my childhood, my dad did call me a dumbass/pussy/derelict every time I was being used for household labor (even though I was supposedly discovered as a 'gifted' child at about 7 years old), say I had no common sense.  And when I was younger than that, he worked all the time and I never really knew him.  He did hit me a handful of times too (and my older brothers were hit more from what I hear).  I remember each incident pretty vividly.  One time he punched me in my leg when he was working on the plumbing for the bathroom sink for bringing him the wrong tool.  I usually had to stay around and help my dad with projects at the house while my friends were all out playing (after work and on the weekends).  I never considered that it all affected me that much, but maybe it did. 

My mom was not negligent.  I was her precious baby.  If anything, she was smothering.

It was very hard for me to not respond to the ex's "hospital" text that got me worked up a bit wondering "did she get raped/assaulted/in a car accident/overdose/suicide attempt...?"

But my brother pointed out this is what she does over and over.  She NEEDS something from me and contacts me.  She never checks to see how I'm doing.

I have just considered that maybe I am co-dependent, which I think is sort of what you were implying here without saying it directly.  It's a hard thing to look into my own psyche and figure out why I am the way I am.  It almost seems to overwhelming and complicated to even approach.  But I have been reading self-help books, which is something I have never done before.  I want to stop hurting.  Loss of romantic relationships are one of the few things that ever hurt me.  I can lose my job/home/car/etc, and it will be damn stressful, but I will move forward.  With failed relationships, I shut down, withdraw, am an emotional wreck. 

Yes, I am seeing a therapist, but I feel like I need one full time.

[struggli]

What I was getting at is your childhood carry over seems to be to care for someone that smacks you upside the head over and over.  And you are blind to it.  'She told me that if I was on fire she'd work up the energy to spit in my general direction."  Really?  This indicates that your momma was somewhat negligent.  Could be wrong.  But when we are healthy, we usually pass on your gf's piss poor attempts to indicate that she cares in the slightest.  She sees you as pawn right now.  If you told her to take a flying leap, she'd probably have a lot more respect.  And there would be a slight glimmer of hope.  Your long discussions to her will read as blah blah blah.  C'mon they are three, short to the point sentences are pretty much all their psyches can take in.  Shape up or ship out.  And she'll say screw you.  You'll say fine.  And then she'll ping you...

It's so dysfunctional.  Do you have a therapist?

I think she was implying she had to go to the hospital for some sort of emergency -- that was the idea I got.

But, if I dig some more about my childhood, my dad did call me a dumbass/pussy/derelict every time I was being used for household labor (even though I was supposedly discovered as a 'gifted' child at about 7 years old), say I had no common sense.  And when I was younger than that, he worked all the time and I never really knew him.  He did hit me a handful of times too (and my older brothers were hit more from what I hear).  I remember each incident pretty vividly.  One time he punched me in my leg when he was working on the plumbing for the bathroom sink for bringing him the wrong tool.  I usually had to stay around and help my dad with projects at the house while my friends were all out playing (after work and on the weekends).  I never considered that it all affected me that much, but maybe it did. 

My mom was not negligent.  I was her precious baby.  If anything, she was smothering.

It was very hard for me to not respond to the ex's "hospital" text that got me worked up a bit wondering "did she get raped/assaulted/in a car accident/overdose/suicide attempt...?"

But my brother pointed out this is what she does over and over.  She NEEDS something from me and contacts me.  She never checks to see how I'm doing.

I have just considered that maybe I am co-dependent, which I think is sort of what you were implying here without saying it directly.  It's a hard thing to look into my own psyche and figure out why I am the way I am.  It almost seems to overwhelming and complicated to even approach.  But I have been reading self-help books, which is something I have never done before.  I want to stop hurting.  Loss of romantic relationships are one of the few things that ever hurt me.  I can lose my job/home/car/etc, and it will be damn stressful, but I will move forward.  With failed relationships, I shut down, withdraw, am an emotional wreck. 

Yes, I am seeing a therapist, but I feel like I need one full time.

[struggli]

If you aren't ready to give up hope... you just aren't ready. This is an emotionally charged relationship and neither one of  you are behaving well right now. Make an adult decision here. If you are ready to break it off... seriously consider NC. It may be the only way you will be able to get your emotions under control. It doesn't have to be forever. Just long enough that you start to see things with your head rather than your heart.

If you aren't ready to do this yet... start posting your story on the staying board so you can learn better ways to protect yourself and communicate with her. This is just extremely dysfunctional right now. Take a step back... make a firm decision... and follow through with it.

Half in and half out is a bad place to be in a relationship with a BPD sufferer. This just makes things more difficult for both of you.

Well, I still love "what she could be" but I can see this isn't working.

I was NC for about 10 days.  I called her "just to make sure" of my doubts.  Was I being the jerk here?  My head was full of confusion and it seemed to be the only way to get clarity.  Plus, I wanted her to come get her stuff that I left outside of my home.

Once she made it clear she didn't want a relationship, I asked her to come get her stuff and promptly said goodbye.  She tried to keep me on the phone.  I said goodbye again.  She said "I'll call you later to let you know when I'm coming to get my stuff."  I said "No need.  Bye" and ended the call.

I haven't seen her for a month because initially she "needed some space" and we've barely communicated within that month.

The sick patterns are more obvious to me now, especially when others help point them out.

I don't think I will post on the staying board.  I don't have what it takes to maintain a relationship like this.

The only problem is my heart still longs for her.  Plus, she doesn't want a relationship anyway, so there's no point. 

She just wants to keep me in the picture for herself.

I guess I'll stay NC even if she says she's on her deathbed.

[Rose Tiger]

Sometimes a cold Dad leaves a lonely Mom looking to get emotional needs met by the kiddos.  There's also a possibility that she is at fault too for not protecting the children.  There could be some enmeshment issues if she was 'smothering'.  Did it ever feel like you had to set aside your needs/feelings because she was upset?  Did you feel it was your job to make sure she was happy?

[struggli]

She never really seemed to need too much emotional support and I also don't know how much she knew about how much of a dick my dad could be at times.  I was mostly too scared to say anything.  I'm not sure about my siblings.

She'd get upset about my lack of motivation for going to church.  I did notice at one point she'd always nag and freak out about us (siblings) not being ready (my dad never went) even though she'd still be getting ready herself and we'd be waiting on her.  I don't know if that counts, but it seems that was when she was most worked up.  I really never wanted to go, but I was obligated to go to church and Sunday school every week.  So, not sure if that's her just trying to be a good mother or what.  There were a few times...only a handful...when I remember seeing her break down into tears.  One time was when my brother and I were challenging the existence of God and she just lost it, like shaking/crying.  I still feel bad about that one.

Also, I was bullied in school (starting in about 6th grade) and I never really received any support on how to deal with it, so I withdrew quite a bit, tried to disappear.  I sought to be as invisible to everyone around me as I could.  In fact, I think that changed me significantly.  Maybe it made me toughen up a bit.  Maybe it made me weaker.  I'm not sure.  It didn't help that my siblings all moved away, all within a couple years of each other, making me an 'only child' who had previously been so used to having them around.

I wrote out this thing a while back that was a sort of "issues of the past" that come to mind when I just think about the harsh things that happened:

Abanonment:

Brother repeatedly letting me down for something he kept promising me
Brother not picking me up from school on time and then getting angry with me (physically harassed/bullied/yelled at) when I walked home.
My brothers all moving out ASAP, leaving me alone with no peers.
Going to middle school with all my friends moved away to other schools.
Grandmother dying while I was in NY.
Pets running away/dying while in the care of others while I'm away.
My cat having renal failure after a trip to Europe. The vet believes he stopped eating/drinking for a couple days when I left, triggering the failure.

First girlfriend cheating on me while on vacation (high school years).
Another ex-gf breaking up with me after every vacation.
Most recent ex saying she needed time alone while actually back with her ex.
Most recent ex acting weird when I went to visit family, calling me by her ex's name and texting him the day before I left.




Self-esteem:

Dad telling me I'm a f--king idiot all the time for not knowing what all tools are called and what they look like, for being a pussy when I got tired holding something, for instance holding a full sheet of plywood above my head at about age 12.  One time my dad grabbed me by my hair and jerked my head back while I was sitting on the floor in my room and told me he was going to beat the sht out of me (I don't remember what I did to evoke that).  I couldn't stop crying.  My brother then told my dad he'd kill him if he ever laid a hand on me again.
Kids at school making fun of me/picked on me for being different, for being academically inclined, for being aloof/quiet, for not having name brand clothes.  I didn't know how to protect myself.  My parents said they'd talk to the teachers.  I told them the teachers are spineless and all they ever do is get the victims more victimized.  My brothers offered to come up there and beat them all up.  I knew that wouldn't work either for 2 reasons:  my brothers couldn't be with me all the time and those kids would always be there, also it was a different generation --if my brothers came up there to fight, they'd end up shot or stabbed.
One time the teacher in 6th grade said in front of the whole class that I was a handsome boy and the girls all said gross or rolled their eyes etc. I know she was trying to pay me a compliment, but it just made me feel like no one liked me or found me attractive for many years because of the reaction of all the girls.
I now have a hard time believing it when someone says I'm smart, sexy, handsome, etc.  I always think they are saying it out of pity, obligation, or a sick joke.  Test scores, grades, etc show I'm book smart I guess.  And I've even had my picture rated online and I got a 9/10 for hotness.  It's just still hard to believe.

Safety/vigilance:

Seeing someone shoot a dog in the head in an alley (about 10 years old)
Getting hit in the head with a brick (knocked unconscious) while playing with other kids, most likely on purpose
Getting electrocuted and nearly dying.
Having some guys about ten years older than me asking if I'd like to go with them and jerk off with them (Years later, I realize they were probably molesting/raping my friend who exhibited strange behavior - severe stuttering, repeating the same phrases over and over in succession)
Having the house/cars of my childhood vandalized several times.  I used to stay up all hours of the night looking at the window waiting for burglars, vandals, etc.
Multiple car accidents where I was a passenger or family members in them.  One was a drunk driver hit and run. 
Multiple concussions as a child.  (I had a catscan as an adult and no anomalies were found)


Death/trauma:

Lots of pets dying.
Grandma multiple bypass surgeries/death scares.
Shooting a deer when I didn't want to because of peer pressure.

One time (I was maybe 7 or 8) I broke a glass over my brother's arm because he said no to something I asked him to do. I gave him a second chance, with promise of consequence included.  He didn't comply, so I broke the glass on his arm.  Then my dad whipped me with the belt 10 or so times.

Money:

An ex from years ago went bankrupt, due to living beyond means, then mooched off me while we were together, coming to bite me in the ass later(with credit card bills I had to pay off). 
Brother took me out for dinner for my b-day.  Then ran up bill with alcohol and asked me to pay.
Brother used to always ask me "how much money do you have?"  I learned to  start saying 'none' because he'd try to weasel it all out of me for his next vacation or his credit card debt.
Feels like current ex has taken advantage of my money as well.

Current ex things that trigger me:

Being deceitful/sneaky about texts/calls/etc - the phone itself or seeing her use it is a trigger
Not reserving touch for me only - seeing her touch people in ways I think would only be appropriate for romance (hugging every guy, touching male customers)
Being flirty. - same as above, but dialogue and gesturing, etc
Making poor decisions/enabling family members, even strangers.- buying alcohol, giving money, no accountability for anyone else's own actions (ie. "it's my sister (14 years old).  I'd rather buy her alcohol than her get it somewhere else.")
Poor communication. - telling me minimal info or failing to convey anything at all (maybe partly to be deceptive or not have to explain anything)
Getting mad at me and instead of trying to talk to me about issues, holding it in and fleeing.  Flight always wins over fight with ex - the more i try to remedy, the more she runs and I don't even know what I did wrong to begin with sometimes.
She once said to me, "I know how to get men to do what I want them to do."
-------

Then there was this part I wrote at the end about my feelings toward her at the time when we were still together:

I want to trust (her name).  Not because I am a blind fool in denial, but because I can truly count on her to respect me and our relationship, to be honest, faithful, trustworthy.  This includes not only being good to me, but not sending improper cues to others.  Boundaries.  They are all flimsy and diluted.

Money and nurturing.  I feel like I am taking care of her completely and she doesn't even reciprocate.  She feels no duty to me.

Sex.  I never wanted to feel like a puppy who sits looking out the window waiting to get laid, but now I do.  She has all the power.

(Name) never assumes any responsibilty in a conflict/problem.


I feel like she has everything she wants, there is no need to try to improve herself or change anything for me.


Secretive

Play innocent and victim, say things are getting better, but what's the improvement?

Won't tell guys she has a boyfriend?

Why so eager to maintain relationships with men that want somehting romantic?  Says "we are friends only" regarding her friends but I don't think they listen and she continues to maintain relationships with them, not asserting my existence.  Why would they believe her that she doesn't want something more with all her actions (spending time with them over me, touching them, hugging them)?

Always sleeps with phone under pillow.  Very secretive about phone.  It's weird.  Is she trying to hide things from me?  It sure seems that way.  I can accept other explanations, but the content of the messages I've sometimes seen makes me believe it's devious.

Is she naive and ignorant to the ways of the world?  or is she a promiscuous slut that has no respect for me, enjoys leading on men, and having me on the side as a good boy?  That's the part that I struggle with the most.

Doesn't have time to text me, but texts the sht out of everyone else?


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Anyway, that's probably a long enough post.

Thanks.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[Rose Tiger]

Wow!  We've been living parallel universe lives.  Except my mom got upset when she heard I didn't believe in santa claus.

Dude, you raised yourself.  YOU raised YOURSELF.  That is so very very very difficult.  It leads to believing the world is a scary place because a child given all the responsibility for figuring out these very hard situations, that is SO much pressure.  And then we try to control the scary people so that we can feel safe.  We have such a lack of self worth, the healthy folks tend to avoid us.  It's hard for us to relate to them, their experiences are so different.  A supportive mom and dad?  Alien world.  The things normal people find really upsetting, we tend to think what is the big deal.  And yeah, now that we've raised ourselves, survived, tried to get our needs met, now we get to revisit childhood and heal our childhood wounds.  Man.  No wonder we're exhausted.    I'm reading a book right now written by a holocaust survivor (people I can relate to) and he was forced into a labor camp at age 14.  They didn't feed them enough and they were starving.  They were dying.  He hated the world, hated the Nazis, just full of hate.  And then one day, a German woman that worked there pointed at a box.  He went by when it was clear and under the box was a cheese sandwich.  That turned him inside out, that a German woman would risk her life to do such a thing.  How could he hate the world when this woman, he didn't know cared enough about him to risk her life?  Everyday she left a sandwich under the box and he credits her with being able to survive that horrible experience.  I wonder where is my cheese sandwich?  There are people out there willing to give cheese sandwiches.     That makes it all worthwhile. 

[struggli]

I thought my ex was giving the cheese sandwiches to me but She started giving me moldy ones, or just none at all.

Maybe you are right about nothing phasing me.  That is definitely true to some degree.  People don't understand how I'm so calm in some situations.  Even now people in person think I'm ok without my ex.  On the outside I must look calm and unaffected, but I'm really gutted on the inside.

I don't think my past was terrible.  If my ex's is true, mine is nothing compared to hers, and of course still others had it worse.

So, I guess I could relate to her.  When she told me her parents were crooks, I didn't care.  When she told me she was raped, I told her it'd be ok.  I thought she is who she's showing me.  She's sweet and determined to make a better life.  She is not trapped by this part.  And maybe that's where I faltered, believing that it'd all be fine.  Honestly, the part of me hanging on still thinks it Will be.

[Rose Tiger]

Sweetie, your past was hell on earth.  It's the wall you've built around your heart, it's reaching out to unhealthy people that prevents you from focusing on it.  It's the road less travelled, to realize that your parents did the best they could but their best was very abusive.      This is the first step, they did the best they could but it was very dysfunctional.  You can still love them, and appreciate what they were able to do.  This pain, it's some her but most is that brave, scared, alone little boy just wanting to be unconditionally loved.

[OTH]

The only problem is my heart still longs for her.  Plus, she doesn't want a relationship anyway, so there's no point.

She just wants to keep me in the picture for herself.

I guess I'll stay NC even if she says she's on her deathbed.

NC is for you. It is not for her. It is because your heart still longs for her and your head knows the relationship is unhealthy for you. It is your head putting your heart in the back seat until it gets stronger. It is putting your needs first for a change so you can take a hard look at yourself.

I think it is important to not isolate yourself. Force yourself to socialize a bit. When we are trapped in drama we lose focus on our healthier relationships. I mention this again because I know it helped me during this time to focus my attention on healthier relationships.

To clarify what I meant by not healthy. You have been around and around and around this circle. If you are ready for it to end. Step off the merry go round. You are a grown man. You can help responding

The contact has continued with ex.  I couldn't help responding.

She said:   sad you don't care to even know what happened that I could possibly need help at 6 in the morning? Sad.

I said:  You do not want to be my girlfriend, you've made that very clear.  And being friends is not want I want.  You aren't available for my struggles, and I'm not available for yours.  We are no longer a team working together to help each other.  So, I am moving on.   I can no longer invest my energy in anyone who does not reciprocate. I wish you the best in whatever issues you have to deal with.  I care about you, but I am no longer involved to any degree.  If you were my woman, it'd be a different story, but that's not the case.  Take care of yourself.

[struggli]

I keep telling myself I'm the problem.  I must be difficult to get along with but she must really love me to keep coming back and trying again, hoping I won't be jealous or any other of my bad traits she's pointed out.

It's hard for me to believe I had a hellish past.  I've heard much worse.

I don't know what is normal or right or healthy or anything anymore.  Right now I'm thinking I've lost someone pretty special and I Just didn't do a good job showing her what she meant to me or treating her right.

All I know is I don't have what was most precious to me.

I am socializing a bit.  My job requires it. 

[Rose Tiger]

They have issues, we have issues, we aren't perfect.  I see you doing everything you can to make this relationship work.  Like 100%.  I see her doing nothing to improve things.  You keep jumping through hoops.  She keeps making more hoops.

It doesn't have to be this hard.  She is not a good match for you.  You are going to drive yourself crazy trying to make her happy.  Hear this, she will never be satisfied.  Never.  EVER.  You might go a few more recycles to convince yourself that you did absolutely everything you could.  We've all been there and we've learned to stop beating ourselves up about it.  We were following a pattern set up during our youth.  It might take a while before you get to this point.  Hang in there and do something nice for YOU today.   

[struggli]

They have issues, we have issues, we aren't perfect.  I see you doing everything you can to make this relationship work.  Like 100%.  I see her doing nothing to improve things.  You keep jumping through hoops.  She keeps making more hoops.

It doesn't have to be this hard.  She is not a good match for you.  You are going to drive yourself crazy trying to make her happy.  Hear this, she will never be satisfied.  Never.  EVER.  You might go a few more recycles to convince yourself that you did absolutely everything you could.  We've all been there and we've learned to stop beating ourselves up about it.  We were following a pattern set up during our youth.  It might take a while before you get to this point.  Hang in there and do something nice for YOU today.  

Thanks.  Between your responses and everyone else's, I feel a little bit better today.  I also talked about parents today in therapy since posting on here brought it to the surface.  I had a tear come out of my eye for the first time in a long while.  It felt kind of good.

The therapist said my childhood sounded kind of bad.  I said it was nothing compared to ex's.  T said ex's was "harrowing" and it didn't mean that it was any less important for me to work on mine.

I still miss the ex.  I think one of the things that bonded us was I could relate to her pain in a lot of ways.  Maybe I just realized that today.

I still love her and still have the fantasy reconciliation (in which all is right and happy and forever...) floating through my mind, but I have been staying busy with my own things which has helped keep it from being an obsession.

I'm guessing this thread will be cut off soon due to it being four pages.  I'll probably have to start a new one soon.

[Rose Tiger]

Yay on the tear!    It is so very difficult to connect to those feelings, it does take time and we'll do about anything to avoid it but it is the only way to heal ourselves and our childhood wounds.  Be nice to you, tell that critical voice in your head to be quiet and find some good affirmations to tell yourself. 

[OTH]

Great post. It is a honest post. You are confused. You need a break to focus on yourself. This post says it all. Take a break. Your emotions need an even period so you can gain perspective.    

I keep telling myself I'm the problem.  I must be difficult to get along with but she must really love me to keep coming back and trying again, hoping I won't be jealous or any other of my bad traits she's pointed out.

It's hard for me to believe I had a hellish past.  I've heard much worse.

I don't know what is normal or right or healthy or anything anymore.  Right now I'm thinking I've lost someone pretty special and I Just didn't do a good job showing her what she meant to me or treating her right.

All I know is I don't have what was most precious to me.

I am socializing a bit.  My job requires it.  

[struggli]

Yesterday, she sent me a picture text of an inside joke we came up with on a road trip about a year ago.

I didn't respond.  It threw me off track for a little while, not knowing what to think/feel about it.

Not a word since.  I'm not sure if I'm seeing more clearly yet.  Maybe a tad bit.

[Rose Tiger]

Can you block her number?  Contact usually sets us back, it can give us false hope and then can make us really sad.  If you can block those texts, you can protect yourself from further pain. 

[struggli]

Well, I have her calls blocked to go straight to voicemail.  But the texts just go into a different folder without any notification.  However, I still peek in there every once in a while.

I still miss her quite a bit.  I think I'm in denial that my future will be without her.  I'm not ready to accept it.  I thought I had finally found the mate of my dreams and that we would die old together.  It's hard to let go.

[Rose Tiger]

I know Sweetie, I know.  There is someone out there that will love and support you.  It's hard making that first plunge and it hurts, then it gets better.   

[struggli]

thanks.  It's hard to see that it will all be ok right now.

I also saw her drive past me today and I've been tense ever since.  She didn't see me, but all I can do since then is wonder where she's going, who she's meeting, how this used to be the day we'd hang out, how I was erased because my love wasn't enough.

[GreenMango]

We've reached our 4 page limit so I'm going to lock this one up.  Thanks for starting it Struggli and the other members for participating.