The "Are you mad at me" game

[sunshine40]

 My uBPDh and I have the "are you mad at me"  recurring conflict. This is typical behavior for him and I know I need to respond "differently", but I do not know how.

He'll ask, "Are you mad at me?"

I'll say, "no". (not angry in the least bit)

Sometimes hours go by, sometimes minutes , and this time it was actually a couple days before he repeated his inquiry. (putting it as "have you been mad at me these last couple days? I've been good." FYI, I've had the flu for the past two days, so I as pretty much out of comission, but never angry... .and he was good.

I responded "yes you've been very good and helped out in the kitchen. Thank you."

He also poinetd out a time when he "could have" argued with me about something, hinting that he still can ( or wants to), but chose not to.

I said, "Thank you, I appreciate that."

These statements were peppered with "are you mad at me" and my "no" responses.

Then he got frustrated at something and raised his voice (I think he wanted to be intimate and argument #1 came into play... that's about initiating... and he can never do it... .another story entirey too long for this post, but we have had that argument so many times that I jst call it argument #1)... oh ya, it was the 8 year old getting out of bed to go to the bathroom. So he yelled at me for that and I know he was frustrated because he wanted to have sex, and thought it would never happen (he always thinks it will never happen... eventhough it is at least once a week... even if I am sick) so he yelled at me. I do not even remember what he yelled. But I said "you don't need to yell at me" and  was sucked into the Are you mad at me game... "See? You ARE mad at me! I knew it!"

Well at this point, am I mad at him? duh! But I said no, I said she's not alseep yet... .wake me up in an hour or two.

I may be calm when I say it. I just hate that game... and no I did not want intimacy with him after that. I never do, but I know it progresses worse if I refuse him... so he always gets it... but after he falls asleep I sob for hours. what can I say to change the game and how can I possibly feel good about myself when his idea of initiating is usually yelling at me?

=Sunshine40

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[briefcase]

Two thoughts about this.  First, search your feelings and make sure you really aren't angry with him.  People with BPD can be very perceptive and he may be picking up on feelings that you yourself are not completely aware of.  I know in my case, answering this type of question with a short "no" became reflexive, even if I really was feeling a little angry.  Not saying you are doing this, I just want to flag the possibility for your consideration.    

Second, when you really aren't angry, simply answering "no" is not really validating his feelings that you are angry.  Maybe try asking a question instead.  "Have I been acting angry?"  "Is there a reason you think I should be angry?"  No challenging tone, more curious/surprised tone from you. See what he says. 

He may say something like, "well you aren't talking to me" or "you keep avoiding me" or some such thing that he's reading a lot into.  That gives you some meat you can validate.  "Oh, I hadn't realized that, no wonder you thought I was angry" (said with a smile and good eye contact).  You can offer an explanation after you validate . . . "I'm still not feeling well is all" or "I'm just exhausted" or whatever the real reason is.  But, don't invalidate.  Let him know you see his point. 

[CodependentHusband]

I think that's a good point, but I would also add that this may well setup a segway to J.A.D.E. when you explain why you are exhibiting whatever behavior he seems to be noticing and associating with your being mad at him. I'm by no means saying not to try asking the probing questions, but be ready to disengage quickly if you see that your explanation seems to be causing him to get triggered.


The point about someone with BPD knowing how we feel before we do is also something I found in my case as well. I've gotten better about noticing how I really feel at any given moment and I sometimes take actions based on that to help avoid making things worse.

[sunshine40]

Okay, So I have thought about it, and I do answer no when I really am not angry, sometimes with a "I am just tired"... if I AM tired... .  and 90% of the time I can say that I am tired and it would be a true statement. Sometimes I do ask a probing question, and I have to tread carefully. And he does typically say something like "you aren't saying anything." And sometimes it is becasue I am tired, and sometimes it is because I am thinking about things that I do not want to talk with him about, because they may be hot button issues for him, and sometimes it is because I am a  little angry at his recent behavior (usually it is griping, complaining, yelling at the kids for being present, or blaming others for his anxieties)... and I know if I answer yes it will start a "well you do "this" and you can't get mad at me." argument... .  I am just so worn out by those, so I just say no.

But you made me realize that I am so scared to say anything that I do not even attempt to validate... .  first of all, I don't really know how. And sometimes I am not sure I should "validate" what he is saying. (because it is not really reality, but i can't even point that out). So again, don't know how... .  I did just get two books to help. I don't have to hde "The High Conflcit Couple", but I do have to hide "Stop Walking On Eggshells".  But I hope to learn something to help from both books.

[yeeter]

Its super easy to JADE, and come off as non-validating to his feelings.

He is asking for a reason - see if you can ask a probing question to learn more?

Are you mad at me?

Why, does it FEEL like I am mad at you?


Then listen.  Dont even try to explain why you were behaving the way you were (even if you were tired or distracted or whatever).  Listen and try to learn how your behavior impacts his feelings - how he processes things (they wont be rational, but that doesnt matter)

[recoil]

When I asked my GF to move out, it was after a "I think you are mad at me" game she played combined with the silent treatment and what I thought were belittling comments.

Had I known about some of the tools back then, I would have handled it better.

It went like this:

Her:  I think you're mad at me.

Me:  Huh?  I'm not mad (wasn't).

[Silence]

Hours later, I go to her.  Hun, I'm not mad (with complementing neck message); really (I wasn't).

[Silence]

Next morning

[Silence]

Now I start getting irritated because I'm not used to games like this.

I wondered after I asked her to leave if she was manipulating me to kick her out (looking back, I highly doubt it, but I felt like I was being cornered at the time).

Looking back:

Her:  I think you're mad at me.

Me:  That must be upsetting.  What am I doing?

Her:  --- hopefully something other than the silent treatment---

[sunshine40]

Sometimes I think he is mad at me when he asks me if I am mad at him.

Sometimes I'll say, "no, are you mad at me?"

and sometimes his answer will be "I don't want to be" and then I will be vomited on with what I did, did not do, am not doing, did "wrong", or something he really does not want to argue about but just cannot let go.

Someimes that shuts him up.

But I will try next time to ask better questions and say "that must be upsetting"... .  when I really think why he is angry with me is usually ridiculous. I hope he does not take it as patronizing.

-Sunshine40

[yeeter]

when I really think why he is angry with me is usually ridiculous. I hope he does not take it as patronizing.

!

Think about this statement for a minute.

Its exactly why validation is so hard.  We try to make a statement like - wow, that must feel really rotten to think that.  But what we are really thinking is... .  'are you kidding me?'

Turns out what we are really thinking comes through pretty clearly.  Hence it comes off as patronizing.  (because it absolutely IS! - we arent genuine or sincere in our inquiry, we have already closed our mind off to what they might be feeling)

At best we can make a very deliberate and mechanical response.  But again it doesnt sound that sincere.

Validation works best when we can clear our own objectives and genuinely listen, and genuinely want to understand.

[briefcase]

Asking him if he is mad at you is basically an invitation for him to say "Yeah . . . ."  Your goal in asking questions is not to "talk it out" with him, or even lead to a discussion that gets to the bottom of anything.  Your goal is simply validating him.  

There are many ways to validate, and asking a validating question is one way.

Alan E. Fruzzetti, Ph.D. is a master at explaining this . . . here is a new Youtube video of him laying it out www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDSIYTQX_dk