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Author Topic: "I'm depressed"  (Read 799 times)
Chosen
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« on: March 03, 2013, 09:27:21 PM »

I hear that a lot from my uBPDh.  However, it is not really his way of "expressing" himself, or trying to find help. 

Sometimes when I ask him "What do you think is the cause of you feeling depressed?"  He would say it is me.  And then things will go downhill when I ask him why so, he just says it's who I am who makes him depressed.  It is a load of bull but anyway that's what he believes.

So lately I'm "experimenting" with something.  To put it in short, I try to do everything he says without arguing against it, or just make a counter-suggestion once and if he doesn't take it, I go with whatever he said.  He says that if I do that he will be happy.  Okay, so I said to him, I will take my chances and see if that really makes him happy (skeptical but nothing much to lose... .  at least now for once he can't blame me for not listening to him).

And he still says "I'm depressed" every once in a while, but when I ask him why, or what is the cause, he won't say it's me.  He will say "I don't know", or just say something completely unrelated like "My shirt doesn't match my pants and that's why I'm depressed."  Of course I don't argue with his "facts".  Sometimes I will say, "Well if you're depressed then you need to see somebody who can treat you and help you."  Then he will just attribute his depression to the weird things like the shirt/pants thing above. 

So I guess my question is: he tells you he is depressed, I don't know if that's the case (sometimes it seems that way to me), but he isn't going to do anything about it.  He doesn't believe in doctors (as in he won't admit he needs psych help) and he keeps thinking that something will happen that will make it better.  what am I to do? 

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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2013, 10:08:27 PM »

If he is truly depressed then not much you can do about it without the doc, or antidepressents.

Certainly pandering to him in order to take away avenue to blame you wont work, as you realized.

Depression is an internal hopelessness, it is normal for a depressed person to not really know the reason for it, and so if pushed hangs it on the nearest excuse. Lack of resolve to do anything about it is a basic symptom of depression.

Seeing a doc over depression is not really psych visits, and if he states he is depressed them he is already claiming the problem.

Personally if someone was using the depression claim then I would be tempted to say "go see the doctor if you're serious, if not I dont want to hear it". It is a straight forward medical complaint the same as anything else.
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 12:14:23 AM »

Lol, I'm depressed. Although that is pretty obvious. Yes, heavily.
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 04:16:00 AM »

I'm curious why you feel it is your responsibility for his feelings?
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 09:47:48 PM »

United for Now,

If we start taking the "I'm not responsible" route too far we will be just like the pwBPD.

MypwBPD will yell at me and then say to me it's not his responsibility if I get upset as a result of that.

He has the attitude that he can do whatever he wants and I have to suck it up.

Well in my opinion that (his) is bad attitude to have. You have responsibility not to be a jerk, make people cry, or say things to hurt them.

Chosen doesn't have to take all his depression or cure it. He wouldn't do that for her. She already does enough. She deserves a pat on the back.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

But in a healthy, equal relationship, if my partner had depression, I would heed the request for help.

And if I said that to him, he has tried his best in the past. I would not stay with someone that had a "so what" attitude or felt it is not their responsibility. That shows a lack of empathy.

As humans it is our responsibility to an extent to care for one an other.

I have depression so I am biased. I told family and friends years ago when it was just starting.

They didn't take it seriously, just told me to see a doctor, take a pill. Agai lack of empathy. This is your family, don't dismiss them. Ask them what they need, what you can do for help.

And if you tell them to see a doctor, at least offer to drive them or have coffee/lunch after. Make it fun. Get involved.

That didn't help me. What I needed was a hug, love, validation, friendship, support---love & kindness.

You can't replace human interaction (or lack of) with a pill or some stranger you pay a huge amount of money to to stare at you and nod sometimes. I seems like a waste of money.

I don't want therapy, I've had very good therapists, with all their tools and what-not... .  but even as a "non" I can understand why people don't want therapy.

It should never be forced upon them.

I could spend the same amount of money on a bunch of friends going for dinner, connect, laugh, have fun.

That would do me so much better than being looked at like an insect in a jar. Where is the love in that?

That's laziness of society. We shove earplugs in our ears, stare at out smartphones, but don't talk to the person sitting next to us.

People need real human connection, and no therapy will ever fill that. If it works for some people let them do it, but don't just wave people off with doctors and pills because we can't handle it.

I also feel strongly about fair-weather friends. We can't just stop talking to people when they are in a bad place and then try to connect with them when we hear along the grape vine they are doing better.

No. Sometimes you gotta be that shoulder to cry on, hold their hand, let them feel loved and cared for.

I think that's why I care so much for my pwBPD. I give him all the time, love, and support that no-one ever gave to me.

(especially family)

I feel people love the way they want to be loved.   Lead by example.

Also people with depression most likely wouldn't be so depressed and needy if they were consistently surrounded in positive environments and people that accept them for who they are.

In times when I had a group of friends that didn't judge if I was teary-eyed I got some relief.

Soon I was laughing along with them---I didn't have to be in denial and slap on a smile-- it happened naturally, not by being forced. Just leave the door open.

It's like when you're a kid and you don't have much work experience and you try to get your first jobs.

They look at your resume and say "you haven't got much experience" and then you try to get your foot in the door with someone that will give you that chance and let you gain that experience.

You are really appreciative of the person that lets you in the door, and from then on jobs are easier and easier to get.

I think people with depression need that foot in the door too.

I don't know so much about BPD depression, its hard as they are raging at the person trying to help them.

It's taxing I know, as I have dealt with my pwBPD and his depression/rage at the same time as my own.

But I still felt like everyone deserves love.  



Hope you enjoyed my two cents.



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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 10:24:13 PM »

Chosen,

Do you think he's depressed or do you think it could be boredom, or the 'empty' feeling that tends to characterize BPD, or something else altogether? I ask because it's distinctly possible that he doesn't know the difference himself, and all of those things would require a different response and/or treatment.

I actually think it was brilliant on your part to play along with his blame game to extricate yourself from that role - well done! At least that's one less thing to contend with in his mind, right? So if it isn't you that's bothering him, then it's something else (hint: it's not the pants/shirt combo)... .  Any ideas on how to get him to explore that? Could you perhaps drop random suggestions, completely not tied to his immediate behaviour, to see what sticks?
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 01:11:54 AM »

United for Now,

If we start taking the "I'm not responsible" route too far we will be just like the pwBPD.

Themis, I completely understand why you feel that way, but the difference is that Chosen, United for Now, you, and me are not persons with BPD.  Empathizing with our partners emotions - and validating them is fine, but once we "take responsibility" or allow a person with BPD to push us into feeling badly ourselves about their emotions, we have taken our empathy "too far". We are then co-dependent, and that truly makes things worse - for us - and for the person with BPD as well.  

You make a very good point and a point that differentiates the situation for us when you say

But in a healthy, equal relationship, if my partner had depression, I would heed the request for help.

Themis, the fact is that we aren't in a healthy equal relationship.  Our partner is mentally ill. We can't do things the same way as we would with a healthy person.

We need to take steps - apply the tools - and make it healthier - one of the first being setting a boundary to not take on our pwBPD's emotions, but still empathizing through validation.

And Arabella, we don't really need to try to figure out where their emotions come from, nor play their game, nor get them to explore anything.  As United for Now brought me to understand - we need to look after "our side of the street." - not reacting in ways that make things worse.  Our speculation about why they are acting as they are often has that effect.  

This stuff is tricky.  Hang in there.  

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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 02:05:10 AM »

You have to be careful when reaching out with a helping hand, they do not always reciprocate by holding it, they have a tendency to hand you their entire baggage.

Support yes, but they have to put their foot forward and consult with the doctors on issues like this. Regular folks would do both but  pwBPD will often bypass the medicos and dump the whole lot on you if you are not careful.

There are a lot of issues with BPD that cant be assisted by medication, but depression is one aspect that can be.

Sometimes boundaries may seem harsh when dealing with pwBPD, these same boundaries are often not needed with other nons. Support being conditional on them consulting a doctor on this issue is not unreasonable. Even if medication cant fix it, it is making personal effort that counts.
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 06:14:07 AM »

Waverider,

I would just feel like a hypocrite if I suggested therapy when I don't even want to do it myself.

(Couples therapy would be different-- never tried and if he agreed to that I'd eat my hat and jump for joy)

As I said, I didn't enjoy the therapy experience. I've tried many different therapists over the years and given them all at least 6 sessions & lots of money. A lot of them got into psychology because they had issues of their own.

I also have strong feelings towards "anitdepressants" have you ever been on them? they have HUGE side-effects, and in some cases can make you feel worse. I've tried a few different types over the years as well.

I had given the one with the least side effects a really good run of years. It did nothing, but I felt obligated to take it.

Once I forgot a dose/was late YOUR HANDS SHAKE like a druggie. It's not a good feeling to be dependant on a heavy chemical.

You can't drink alcohol with friends, you can't mix it with certain medicine. It puts your self-esteem down having to take this pill instead of getting a hug.

After a few months any placebo effect wears off. If you do independant research (not what the doctors are trained to say) you will find that most of the effect is a placebo.

In fact most of the time regardless of type they generally made me feel either apathetic or increased anxiety.

One particularly bad one made it hard for me to think or walk. Another had me break out in a rash.

Standard Prozac can be very bad for some people. For me it made me feel suicidal after commencing the medication.

I also got stomach aches.

It's a drug, it can be called "medicine" but these are serious drugs. Let's not drug people.

Even if it works that is no solution. They need a real solution, not a pill.

What people need is real love, friendship, time, connections, strong family bonds. There is no easy way out.

Sure they are difficult. I currently want to smack my pwBPD in the mouth. I'd love to throw him a pill and make him more co-operative.

But that's not fair. He's a human, and needs something else, I can give him, and a pill can't either.


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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 07:10:05 AM »

I also have strong feelings towards "anitdepressants" have you ever been on them? they have HUGE side-effects, and in some cases can make you feel worse. I've tried a few different types over the years as well.

I had given the one with the least side effects a really good run of years. It did nothing, but I felt obligated to take it.

Once I forgot a dose/was late YOUR HANDS SHAKE like a druggie. It's not a good feeling to be dependant on a heavy chemical.

You can't drink alcohol with friends, you can't mix it with certain medicine. It puts your self-esteem down having to take this pill instead of getting a hug.

After a few months any placebo effect wears off. If you do independant research (not what the doctors are trained to say) you will find that most of the effect is a placebo.

In fact most of the time regardless of type they generally made me feel either apathetic or increased anxiety.

One particularly bad one made it hard for me to think or walk. Another had me break out in a rash.

Standard Prozac can be very bad for some people. For me it made me feel suicidal after commencing the medication.

I also got stomach aches.

Agreed antidepresents aren't always a cure all, and side effects can be severe and need monitoring

What people need is real love, friendship, time, connections, strong family bonds. There is no easy way out.

They need this to

Sure they are difficult. I currently want to smack my pwBPD in the mouth. I'd love to throw him a pill and make him more co-operative.

Agreed there is no pill to address BPD as a complete disorder

But that's not fair. He's a human, and needs something else, I can give him, and a pill can't either.

Hope you are not promoting that people presenting symptoms of depression should be encouraged not to see a doctor and that it is up to those around them alone to address it?

Depression is serious and medical care should be sought, along with the support of those around, to address it. Add in the complication of BPD and the outcome can be life threatening.

Hence the need to "bully" if necessary a pwBPD into seeking professional help and monitoring. Of you cant make anyone do anything, but by your own actions you can enable them to avoid. Enabling them to by pass the doctors is not advisable. Nor is projecting your own bad experiences with anti depressents

I personally would not like my partner to suicide knowing that I did not do everything in my power to encourage them to seek medical help for it, but instead had taken it on myself to soothe them.
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2013, 07:49:15 AM »

Very good thread, all. Coming from a recovering codependent, I echo the sentiment that this empathy we have for those we love must be in balance to what we are able to contribute to the relationship without feeling depressed ourselves, or, even worse, resentful of our pwBPD when our efforts do not seem to be having a positive effect.

  Yes, I care about how my wife is feeling at any given time, and I do what I can to help her achieve happiness, but there are limits to this and I no longer attempt to "own" her happiness. Doing so just drags us both down in a depressed state.

It has taken me a lot of practice to get here. Much luck to you in this. In my experience, it's worth the effort.
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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2013, 08:19:17 AM »

"There are a lot of issues with BPD that cant be assisted by medication, but depression is one aspect that can be." Right on, waverider!

wr,

thank you for countering themis' comments about medication and therapy for depression.

The psych community knows a ton about depression.  There is a ton of research to indicate that the most superior course of treatment to reduce symptoms of moderate to severe depression is a combination of talk therapy (especially cognative-behavioral) and antidepressant medication.  Adjunct factors like healthy diet, plenty of sleep, exercise, and meditation/relaxation/imagery can also change brain chemistry and reduce depression, but for someone who is severly depressed, medication is a good start to change brain chemistry for most people.  Chronic depression shortens people's life spans and if medication jump starts reduction of symptoms, I don't think it's any different than blood pressure meds or insulin.

I also think Arabella makes a good point about the possibility of boredom or emptiness instead of clinical depression.  In the case of boredom or emptiness, which are more BPD symptoms, the BPD must learn to self-soothe and fill in the emptiness themselves.  We can validate that they are having a hard time doing that, but we can't fix it for them.

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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2013, 11:22:40 AM »

I think you need to be able to tell the difference between the borderline depression mask and real depression, which is not easy.  Sometimes it's really another one of their masks that they hold on to and protect for subconscious reasons.  My husband could talk to me about it, so it was easier for me to get it because it's a weird concept for me.  The way he explained it was he needed to always feel every aspect of his life sucked so he could express these very important emotions of how terrible everything is.  He said he was afraid things might go too well and he wouldn't be able to emote this way.

My understanding is that since they do not know how to take care of their own needs by soothing themselves, they need to create a lot of reasons to get us to soothe them.  Once I was taught what was and wasn't my role in taking care of his needs and got a clear idea of what I should be doing for him and shouldn't and then stopped enabling him, he began to take care of his needs on his own for the first time ever, and he said the feelings that life sucks or that I suck went away.  

But it was hard for me as a codependent to let him go cold turkey.  My therapist had to tell us both a lot, you take care of your needs and he takes care of his.  But I was very glad to find out they can take care of themselves just fine.  It's just that they are so afraid they won't be able to that they won't do it unless you make them, unfortunately.  
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2013, 11:50:59 AM »

I hear that a lot from my uBPDh.  However, it is not really his way of "expressing" himself, or trying to find help.  Sometimes when I ask him "What do you think is the cause of you feeling depressed?"  He would say it is me. 

I have heard the blame game so much that it no longer affects me personally. I just realize that he may not be able to take personal responsibility for his feelings... .  the crux of BPD... .  and just blame us... .  the best thing for us is to NOT take it personally but see it as part of his ILLness. Been thinking of you ((Chosen)), we "talked" a bit when I was on the staying board and have moved to Undecided and then to the LEAVING board. Wishing you well 

And then things will go downhill when I ask him why so, he just says it's who I am who makes him depressed.  It is a load of bull but anyway that's what he believes.

Excerpt
So lately I'm "experimenting" with something.  To put it in short, I try to do everything he says without arguing against it, or just make a counter-suggestion once and if he doesn't take it, I go with whatever he said.  He says that if I do that he will be happy.

 I believe that this could help US not engage so much and not give as many triggers to our pwBPD but overall, I have read (in Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder by Valerie Poor) that our pwBPD "may feel (emotional or mental) pain 9 times greater than we do and only HALF the amount of joy that a NON BPD person may experience". This has stuck with me... .  so even when he says that "he will be happy"... .  it may NOT BE what WE think of as "happy"... .  and it sounds a bit more like "controlling" to me... .  the more they control, the less OUT of control they feel... .  sad.

Excerpt
And he still says "I'm depressed" every once in a while, but when I ask him why, or what is the cause, he won't say it's me. 

I really wonder if they not only DO NOT WANT to see themselves but if through this WICKED illness of BPD that they are not wired to BE ABLE to see themselves and NOT blame others. I wonder. I am sorry that he blames you all the time, try NOT to take it personally.

Excerpt
Sometimes I will say, "Well if you're depressed then you need to see somebody who can treat you and help you."  Then he will just attribute his depression to the weird things like the shirt/pants thing above. 

I know my upwBPD will NOT admit that "he has an issue"... .  it is all about "something else" and suggesting to find someone "TO HELP YOU" is a BIG trigger... .  He doesn't NEED any help (in his mind), he has a VERY HIGH IQ and he will "figure it out"... .  to him I would like to say "How is that going for you?" (I have moved from the Staying to the Leaving board within a year's time... .  mmm)

Excerpt
So I guess my question is: he tells you he is depressed, I don't know if that's the case (sometimes it seems that way to me), but he isn't going to do anything about it. 

exactly

Excerpt
He doesn't believe in doctors (as in he won't admit he needs psych help) and he keeps thinking that something will happen that will make it better.  what am I to do?

 

NOT expect him to think anything NEW about this.

NOT expect him to agree with you or your thoughts on what he needs.

NOT expect him to change... .  

EXPECT him to continue to complain but NOT be willing to "get help".

EXPECT him to continue to blame you or the color of his shirt/pants, etc... .  

EXPECT him to BE WHO IS RIGHT NOW... .  be radically accepting that you love a person who is MENTALLY ILL and he cannot "emotionally connect" with you... .  not even to help himself.

 Good luck hon. 


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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2013, 01:42:54 PM »

And Arabella, we don't really need to try to figure out where their emotions come from, nor play their game, nor get them to explore anything.  As United for Now brought me to understand - we need to look after "our side of the street." - not reacting in ways that make things worse.  Our speculation about why they are acting as they are often has that effect.  

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Or it could just be semantics? But while I know that figuring out where the emotions of a pwBPD come from are not my responsibility - I DO still have a responsibility to care for my partner. I don't see it as a game - that would require some sort of conscious thought or manipulation. While that may occasionally happen, I think figuring out for ourselves what the nature of the problem is (here, the "depression" allows us to make an informed choice for ourselves. How I respond to my pwBPD will depend on whether it is a "game", as you suggest, or a legitimate medical problem that requires more consideration. I'm not going to set a boundary regarding seeing a doctor if he's just bored, I will ignore that; but if he is seriously depressed then I may insist on a doctor or change my response to reflect my understanding of the situation. I can't decide how to react without knowing what I am reacting to!
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2013, 02:12:49 PM »

Waverider,

If someone is suicidal no DRUG in the world will help them. People kill themselves regardless of being in or out of the mental health system. Heck, people often kill themselves on their own anti-depressants. You can overdose on them. Any effect has been found in double-bind studies to be a placebo. An expensive placebo with huge side-effects.

You would be doing everything you could by not peer-pressuring them into drugs.

Drugs are not the way. It's not just "projecting" my own experiences. (which is better than having no experience with taking drugs and then expecting a partner that we claim to love to take chemicals-IMO that is not a loving action-it is a drug)

It based on myself and many, many others. There are also psychologists that are not into the whole drug thing.

Psychiatry is a business, just like any other business. It does not matter that this is meant to be a caring industry. If you look at it's roots and history, it's not really based on concern for the patient at all. It's also pretty new and only been recently accepted as a proper science in the last 50 years or so.

The drugs are marketed just like any other product. Someone is making money off these things.

I've been to a GP, and while I was there saw the sales-rep for some new anti-depressants come in and give free samples of this or that and talk about deals. It's a product. It makes money. We have been brainwashed about how grand and effective these things are. It's over-rated and over-hyped. We often see them taken off the shelves years later when there are suicides and too many side-effects they can no-longer cover up. So much of the population is on anti-depressants! That's a huge  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) that the bigger picture of modern living is not being addressed and we want easy solutions.

People are becoming isolated and community is breaking down.

I would not risk the person I loved on these dangerous things.

You'll get some therapists that will drag out the sessions, tell the patient they need more and more help. Why?

Because they get $200/hr or more for helping them!

There ARE some excellent psychologists out there--but that's something people find on their own. Forcing them to one is going to create an oppositional dynamic where the pwBPD will view the psychologist ans an adversity or someone to argue with. That's the thing with BPD---they won't view the psychologist in the same way a person seeking help of their own volition will. It could be very distressing for them and trigger more self-harming defenses as an act of defiance.

Have you noticed what happens when you try to tie up a wild horse? Well it bucks and kicks and becomes more wild.

The attention-seeking side of BPD tends to come out during therapy, hospital etc now they have a keen audience that takes their threat seriously. They will get into a similar dynamic with the therapist.

What we have to understand is that in theory "treatment" can seem perfect--but just imagine applying in real-life someone who does not want to get help. This can only backfire.

No pwBPD (like self-harm, yelling, acting in, acting out) etc without and audience, and this can include the therapist. The therapist can become a part of the drama.

"We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." – Albert Einstein

We also have to consider the risk that the stigma will have on them. Their sense of self and self-esteem is poor enough without adding to it.

I'm not saying ONE person has to do this all on their own. There are community mental health teams, group therapy, or hobby/friend making type of support situations which can be useful.

There could be a useful therapist, but how many grown adults will want to talk to a stranger because their spouse/family forced them to?

This would generally feel infantilizing.

They have to choose this for themselves.

We can't pick the compatible person for them. Compatibility is important. It may take a while to find the right person. This is crucial otherwise any "therapy" won't work if there is a genuine dislike/instant dislike of therapist.

We have to understand that a therapist is just a human being, and therefore like shaking the hand of someone new--you can sense you take to them or you don't. You won't open up or get any benefit from talking to someone you don't trust or like enough to share with.

How would we feel? How would you feel if your wife told you to spend lots of money per hour, as you were in distress to a stranger and then take a pill that has a huge possibility of making you sick or altering your personality?

We really have to stop and think about and be honest with ourselves--how this would make us feel?

To our pwBPD we are just as "crazy" as them and the advice would sound just as bad as our interpritation of someone with pwBPD waving their metaphorical arms around telling us to "get help!"

We can encourage them to get help, with a therapist they choose, without drugs, and with a support team.

I agree that one person may not be able to shoulder all the responsibility---especially if they have their own depression or codependance or whatever attracted them to a dramatic situation with someone with BPD.

We also can't underestimate the power of community, friends, and family. There is no magic wand, there is no lazy way. There has to be real desire to love and support fellow humans.

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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2013, 02:21:52 PM »

Depression is depression.  There is no "borderline" depression or "non" depression.  There is a collection of symptoms, meeting them or not, and the severity to which someone meets them.

Depressed people are a drag to be around, and they often seem like they are "wallowing" or "whining" and not "wanting" to get help.  I fight to not become depressed, but there is something comfortable and familiar and safe about isolating with my pain when I feel it coming on.  That is when I increase my antidepressant, tell people close to me how I am feeling, try to spend time in the sun, go out to dinner, watch funny stuff on tv; my tools in my own tool box.  I have developed these tools over several years, am on maintenance dose of antidepressant, had mentally ill parents, this is what I studied in school, it's my career field, I tend to over-regulate my emotions and have a natural inclination to "figure stuff out".  I still fight it.  Think about how hard it is for our SO's.

I think we have a hard time with depressed people b/c they are not very validating.  They have slow responses, flat affects, and they do tend to be stuck.

It reminds of the first time my son smiled at me.  He was about 5 weeks old and before that, he was an expressionless bobbleheaded, poopiing and eating machine.  When he smiled, it was validation that he saw me and loved me.  :)epressed people can't validate other people b/c they are narcissistic self-loathers.
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2013, 02:37:09 PM »

Depression is depression.  There is no "borderline" depression or "non" depression.  There is a collection of symptoms, meeting them or not, and the severity to which someone meets them.

Thank-you for this point rosannadanna. pwBPD are humans, we might feel so frustrated and angry by their actions (my pwBPD is currently being so cruel that I am having physical symptoms from the stress as a result of being so churned up.) that it might even feel satisfying to put them in another category to the rest of humanity altogether.

Their actions are so frustrating, baffling,, and beyond our comprehension. Therefore there might be the attitude that there is non-depression and Borderline depression.

This dehumanizes them and puts them in some kind of alien category.

Again I say right now I truly want to smack my pwBPD in the mouth because he is being so utterly nasty to me.

But even at this point where I don't feel the love, he is human, and not in some other category of human with "BPD depression".

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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 04:55:39 PM »

Forcing them to one is going to create an oppositional dynamic where the pwBPD will view the psychologist ans an adversity or someone to argue with. That's the thing with BPD---they won't view the psychologist in the same way a person seeking help of their own volition will. It could be very distressing for them and trigger more self-harming defenses as an act of defiance.

Have you noticed what happens when you try to tie up a wild horse? Well it bucks and kicks and becomes more wild.

The attention-seeking side of BPD tends to come out during therapy, hospital etc now they have a keen audience that takes their threat seriously. They will get into a similar dynamic with the therapist.

What we have to understand is that in theory "treatment" can seem perfect--but just imagine applying in real-life someone who does not want to get help. This can only backfire.

No pwBPD (like self-harm, yelling, acting in, acting out) etc without and audience, and this can include the therapist. The therapist can become a part of the drama.

"We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." – Albert Einstein

We also have to consider the risk that the stigma will have on them. Their sense of self and self-esteem is poor enough without adding to it.

I'm not saying ONE person has to do this all on their own. There are community mental health teams, group therapy, or hobby/friend making type of support situations which can be useful.

There could be a useful therapist, but how many grown adults will want to talk to a stranger because their spouse/family forced them to?

This would generally feel infantilizing.

They have to choose this for themselves.

We can't pick the compatible person for them. Compatibility is important. It may take a while to find the right person. This is crucial otherwise any "therapy" won't work if there is a genuine dislike/instant dislike of therapist.

We have to understand that a therapist is just a human being, and therefore like shaking the hand of someone new--you can sense you take to them or you don't. You won't open up or get any benefit from talking to someone you don't trust or like enough to share with.

Totally agree with this point point therapy is of no use if it is not desire by the patient. Even then it takes effort on both the pwBPD and the T to get to an effective level.

The specialized nature of BPD means an experienced T in the field, not just any T is required. The difficulties with a pwBPD natural tenancies to deny and deflect responsibility also make it difficult. There needs to be the correct dynamics between patient and T for any chance of success, and yes even then success is not guaranteed.

My partner has been on and off various depressants much like yourself with all kinds of side effects. But I have no doubt without them she would have slit her wrists years ago.
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 05:20:34 PM »

Depression is depression.  There is no "borderline" depression or "non" depression.  There is a collection of symptoms, meeting them or not, and the severity to which someone meets them.

Agreed but with pwBPD there are complications. Firstly a pwBPD will often use whatever means necessary to get validation and neediness met, so it is not uncommon to use the term "depression" to express something that wouldn't fall under clinical depression.

It is also common to fake it as another tool to get you to bend to neediness

These are some of the reason you need it subjectively assessed

Secondly the consequences of depression being co-morbid with BPD can be severe. You can say a gun is a gun, but to put it in the hands of a mentally unstable person who thinks the world is responsible for all their woes would be irresponsible. Chronic clinical depression within a pwBPD can equally be fatal. Attempting home remedies alone to handle it is irresponsible.

Going back to my initial point you cant "make" anyone do anything, but by your own actions you can choose either to create an environment whereby they choose to seek appropriate, and often difficult for them, means to address their issues, or you can choose to enable them to bypass appropriate means, cling to you and drag you both further down into that black hole of neediness with no outside support to provide a healthy check.

That is in essence what a Boundary is.

That black hole is there waiting for you to step right on in
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2013, 08:09:13 PM »

Wow I'm surprised my little post sparked off such lively discussion.

I agree that if a person is unwilling to get help, then he/ she cannot really be helped because the first step to the cure is seeing the problem.

I don't know whether H is truly depressed or is just feeling "empty" or not wanting to have any flaw in his life.  In either case, it is not possible to truly know, and it is not something I can solve.  By asking him the reason I'm trying to help him think about the reason.  Sometimes when he kind of discoveres there is nothing he can blame he "stops" being "depressed"... .  so who knows, maybe he's saying it to get attention because a lot of those times he doesn't seem depressed to me.  But of course, I can't fully tell.

In a sense I ask him also because I want to show him that I'm not ignoring his feelings.  Of course, I will ask him how he thinks his depression can go away, and if he just drops the topic I drop it too.  Just giving him some outlet to express himself I guess.
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2013, 11:18:47 PM »

Have you considered the meds are a big part of the problem?

I stopped having suicidal feelings, apathy etc after stopping my meds three years ago. Now I have depression from situational things, and have real feelings that aren't masked into apathy.

I actually have more of an ability to be happy. They might take away the lows in some people (or increase them) but they kill off the happier feelings too.

There was improvement 2 weeks after stopping those things. They are bad news.

Any reaction to stopping medication is not due to it being effective---it's due to withdrawal symptoms.

It's hard to do because once you give them to someone you put them dependent on a drug just like a druggie.

Encouraging drugs is just as bad as home remedies.

I'd say encourage therapy/support but avoid meds like the plague. It might be the thing making everything worse.
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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2013, 12:21:46 AM »

Staff only

The discussion of pharmaceutical recommendations is a very serious matter.  As with each person, the decision to take or not take medication, is personal.  The effects, side effects, and contraindications will vary.  This is a discussion best addressed with the sufferer, the clinician, and the partner (if deemed appropriate).  All medications should be supervised with a clinician.  

BPD can be a very serious mental illness with a variety of co-morbid factors, including depression.  People with BPD are at higher risk for suicide and medication tinkering/recommendations by partners or other non-medically trained people can be dangerous.  We need to be very careful in our recommendations to others in this area.

Here are a couple of threads on the more clinical issues regarding medication and treatment:

   

BPD: Treatments, Cures, and Recovery


Topic: What Medications are used for BPD and what their side effects?


Here are the guidelines regarding mental health content:

Excerpt
1.4 Unconventional Mental Health Content: While it is anticipated that most members have little or no formal training in mental health, members are expected to read and have some reasonable foundation before giving advice to others. Members shall post only personal experiences or the experience of a very close relative or friend and well grounded conventional mental health concepts. Please provide a reference or link for third party information. Collectively the membership is here to learn and grow as a group and it is important that we not recycle or reinforce incorrect or unhealthy ideas. With the advent of the Internet and self-publishing, just about anyone can make authoritative looking material. This puts an increased responsibility on members to check out resources carefully. Members may not use the message board to promote unconventional science/medicine. More information here.

If you have any questions or comments about this moderating post please direct them here: https://bpdfamily.com/resolve
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2013, 07:26:46 AM »



(oops, just cross posted with GreenMango - deleted)
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2013, 10:32:53 AM »

does cymbalta or antidepressants help less some of the symptoms of BPD?
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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2013, 03:27:21 PM »

Depression is depression.  There is no "borderline" depression or "non" depression.  There is a collection of symptoms, meeting them or not, and the severity to which someone meets them.

Going back to my initial point you cant "make" anyone do anything, but by your own actions you can choose either to create an environment whereby they choose to seek appropriate, and often difficult for them, means to address their issues, or you can choose to enable them to bypass appropriate means, cling to you and drag you both further down into that black hole of neediness with no outside support to provide a healthy check.

That is in essence what a Boundary is.

That black hole is there waiting for you to step right on in

I never realized how easy it is to get sucked into that black hole. Like previous posts, I agree that empathy should be shown. But how much is too much? I have a hard time figuring that one out with my husband. I know finances seems to big his biggest trigger for depression, but I can't just let everything go for the sake of his feelings when bills need to be paid, credit is at risk, and these things affect not just him, but us as a family. (sorry for all the commas!) My husband screams 'depressed' quite often. And while I do believe he is, he seems to refuse to do things that will help. And i'm not talking about meds or therapy, but just simple things to help alleviate stress. I appreciate this thread.

And sorry, i have a tendency to ramble because I don't talk to anyone else about this.
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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2013, 07:07:21 PM »

fakename - without getting into a debate over the relative merits of various pharmaceuticals (see Green Mango's post, above), I can tell you that in the particular case of my dBPDh medication has made a positive difference. I think medications just work better for some individuals than others, with various factors weighing in - i.e. biology, symptoms, comorbid disorders, lifestyle, etc.
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