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Author Topic: Manipulation with the children  (Read 725 times)
alembic
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« on: April 25, 2013, 05:01:31 AM »

Hi,

My wife, I believe, is undiagnosed BPD.  We have long had a volatile relationship, particularly since our children were born (we have three of them by now).

I love our children very much - they make me smile, and I am very proud of them.  In my view, they are one of the few good things that has come out of our marriage.

I am rapidly getting psychologically to the point where I am prepared to leave this marriage, and move on with my life.  I really cannot take things any more. By now, I find the idea of leaving the marriage behind palatable, but I desperately do not want to leave the children behind too.

However, my wife knows this about me, and is quite prepared to use this 'weakness' against me.  She is perfectly prepared to paint me as whatever type of father the situation demands.  If she is trying to persuade me to stay, she paints me as a great father, who the kids would dearly miss if I were not around.   On the other hand, if she thinks I am likely to try and leave, she paints me as a terrible father, who has been systematically damaging our children, and happily repeats that same picture to authority figures such as doctors, counsellors and so on, in a bid to potentially stop me having access to the children, unless it is by virtue of staying with her.

If I do leave, it is quite possible, even likely, that some of our children may want to come with me, rather than live alone with their mum.  And that prospect seems to really make her afraid, because she would see that as 'proof' that I am right, that the kids prefer my style of looking after them.  So she seems to be prepared to say/do anything to make sure that doesn't happen.

So for example, if the children say anything negative about my parenting style (which naturally sometimes happens) she seizes on it, and makes a huge deal out of it, even if the same criticism equally applies to her.  When you ask the kids themselves, they are generally quite upbeat about the way I parent them, but she just says - 'they would say that... .  to you'.  She has even suggested that the kids have Stockholm Syndrome, that they only like me because I've somehow 'hypnotised' them into liking me, or that children are genetically programmed to like their fathers, so their affection towards me means nothing.

I can certainly always leave the marriage and set up home myself, since I am an autonomous adult. But how can I protect the children from all of this?  In my experience so far, the authorities are only too willing to believe 'a mother's instinct', which is the emotional sort of card she plays, and write me off as an abusive, angry father.  One of the reason's I've stayed in the marriage so far is to try and be around so that the children regularly get a different view on life to my wife's.  If I leave, I may well get much less input, and they will inevitably suffer. They are such fabulous kids.

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SuzyQ33

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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2013, 06:56:08 AM »

This is exactly what I hear from my husband too! I feel your pain... .  Please consider doing the following:  keep a diary of day to day interactions with her and between her and the kids - you will then have 'proof' later on... .  also do some recordings of rants and rages - just don't ever let her see this. Then you need to find someone you can trust in an authoritative position to tell your 'diagnosis' to  like a therapist. All of this will later be useful should you decide to leave. I know it can feel like doing something behind her back,  but she is going to do a lot worse when you do leave. An attorney will appreciate the groundwork you have done and will be in a much better position to help you.  I am in the same situation at present so I know how difficult this is for you.  All my best wishes to you.
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ExtraMom

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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2013, 10:23:01 AM »

Get documentation of the times she is saying you are a great father. Either note the date and time if she says such things in front of any adult witnesses, or, if at all possible, get her to admit it in email or other writings. If she has applauded your parenting skills or anything on Facebook or a blog, perhaps, get a screenshot of this.

Should she make claims about what a terrible father you are, submitting written documentation or witnesses of her saying you are a wonderful father will certainly hurt her credibility.

When my boyfriend's BPDx was busily telling everyone that he was abusive and horrible and that the kids would be better off with her, we had reams of pages printed from her blogs of her talking about what a wonderful father he was and how the kids were better off with him, even admitting that she was too unstable to care for the kids herself and that her therapist said she was not emotionally capable of caring for the kids. Ultimately, this documentation was unnecessary, since she ended up digging her own grave, but it was very nice to know we had it. And it WAS very helpful when she tried filing false reports of abuse after it became evident that she was losing custody of her daughter.
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ExtraMom

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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2013, 10:23:45 AM »

*hurt HER credibility. Sorry... .  

I finally realized how to fix this mistake in my previous post, but can't see how to delete this one, now. Again, sorry.
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alembic
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2013, 12:40:50 PM »

Please consider doing the following:  keep a diary of day to day interactions with her and between her and the kids - you will then have 'proof' later on... .  also do some recordings of rants and rages - just don't ever let her see this. Then you need to find someone you can trust in an authoritative position to tell your 'diagnosis' to  like a therapist.

Hello Suzy, thanks for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it.  Very sorry to hear you're in the much the same situation.  I know how it feels.

I do have something a bit like a diary - it doesn't have exact dates in, but it does list most of the major incidents in the order they occurred.  Of course, it's only my word against hers, though, and whenever I have had occasion to remind her of one of these incidents in the past, she just claims I'm lying, and they didn't happen.

I did try doing some recording of one of my wife's rages once, but she immediately shut up and wouldn't continue once the camera was rolling, which I found very interesting. 

There was another occasion when I successfully recorded one of our daughters having a rage, which are scarily like her mother's, just the juvenile version.  My wife and I recently started going to therapy together, so I showed the video of our daughter to the therapist, to try and demonstrate what we are up against, hoping the therapist might make the connection between our daughter and her mother.  Instead of focusing on our daughter's behaviour, though, the therapist totally obsessed over what might cause me to pick up a camera and record someone having a rage, rather than try and calm them down.  She spend ages essentially trying to convince me that I was the one with the problem for not caring about our daughter's emotional distress, which has left me feeling worse than ever.  The answer why you would do it is obvious - if you're constantly being told things didn't happen, you naturally want something factual, like a video, to prove they did.

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alembic
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2013, 12:49:46 PM »

Get documentation of the times she is saying you are a great father. Either note the date and time if she says such things in front of any adult witnesses, or, if at all possible, get her to admit it in email or other writings. If she has applauded your parenting skills or anything on Facebook or a blog, perhaps, get a screenshot of this.

Hello ExtraMom - thanks also for taking the time to reply.  The Facebook idea is a good one.  She may have let slip something positive about me on Facebook at some point, I will have a look.

She is very tricky about these things, though.  It doesn't help my cause much that she's also highly intelligent. If challenged about the apparent contradiction, should would say something like 'I had to say something positive about my husband on Facebook, because he might have seen the post. I couldn't tell the truth about him because of what he might have done to me, and also the embarrassment I would feel telling my friends and family about how badly I've been treated by him.  But now that the things have come to a head, I feel strong enough to tell the truth about him... .  "

See what I mean?  That would just trip off her tongue, without a second thought.
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mamachelle
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2013, 01:56:49 PM »

Hi traddad,

Welcome

I know you are dealing with a lot of issues right now. It's hard to know where to even begin. I am a Non remarried to a Non. We have kids from previous marriages to BPD ex spouses, raising them Brady Bunch style. Yours, mine and ours. I have 2 DD 13 and 16, 3 SS 8, 10, and 15... .  and 1 son 2 with my H.

I came here 8 years ago splitting with my exBPDH. Whether you end up staying or splitting, there are many things you can and need to do to help yourself with communication and with keeping yourself grounded. It will help your family in the long run.


Can you let us know how old your children are, Sons or Daughters?

You mention marriage counseling... . is that a new thing or have you been doing this for a while?

Is your D that was raging in therapy now?

Let us know a little more so we can point you to the right resources here for parenting with a BPD parent as well as parenting a sometimes emotionally dysregulated child. Funny your T got so upset with you recording, may not be a good sign for her professional ability to deal with BPD either. My SS behavior therapist explicitly asked us to record our SS as he suffers from emotion dysreg. Granted, it was his therapist, but still... .  how is this therapist with understanding the behaviors of your W? If she is now focusing on you as disordered then it might be time to get a new therapist somehow... .  I know it's not easy getting into therapy in the first place but it is concerning.

For the recording of incidents and more help along those lines, I would also recommend posting on our Legal Board. There are many there who can give you some good advice.

mamachelle

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alembic
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2013, 05:54:19 PM »

Hi traddad,

Welcome

Thanks.

Can you let us know how old your children are, Sons or Daughters?

One son, 11, two daughters, 8 and 4.

You mention marriage counseling... . is that a new thing or have you been doing this for a while?

It's fairly new. But not going well.  But I gather from this board that this is quite common. We also tried it a few years back - didn't go well then, either. My wife presents a completely different face to the therapist. Cries all the time in sessions, blames me, makes out I'm a monster. Always comes across as extremely convincing - even to me - and the therapist seems to go with it.  The crying stops immediately when the session ends, though, and she goes back to her normal, rather detached self.

The therapist seems to think I should be consoling my wife in the sessions, because she is so distressed, and essentially thinks I'm heartless, and that this is the source of my wife's problems.  By it's very hard to be consoling, when the incidents she's upset about didn't really happen the way she's describing. I've tried to explain that things weren't like that, but the therapist keeps telling me I'm 'too rational', and I need to engage with the problems at an emotional level. Essentially her argument seems to boil down to the fact that if my wife is this upset, it's up to me, as her husband, to give her whatever she needs not to be upset. But over the years I've discovered that's essentially an impossible task.

I've also realised that by now I have developed something like a 'phobia' about my wife's emotional state, because of all her rages over the years. I kind of 'lock up' inside when she starts to get emotional, anticipating the worst.  But that again just makes me look bad and cold-hearted in front of the therapist.

Is your D that was raging in therapy now?

No. It's the 8 year old.  The therapist saw the video, which is actually quite shocking, but didn't make that much of it.  My daughter's rages aren't that frequent (about once every six months). A lot of the time she is an angel, but sometimes something that seems inconsequential to me just pushes her over the edge. I've tried to convince my wife over the years we should be more pro-active about getting help for her - that has been one of the causes of our arguments, but she has been quite dismissive about the need for it. Presumably because she finds that sort of expression of emotion natural, since she does it herself. 

Our 11 year old son is showing signs of depression, and is finding it difficult living in our household because of all the stress, arguing, and the behaviour of his sister.  He has received some (small) amount of counselling, but because of lack of resources, this is irregular and uncertain whether it will continue.

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mamachelle
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2013, 10:10:02 PM »

Traddad,

Sounds frustrating... .  

You will definitely  find others to help you sort out the therapy issues on the Staying board. I would think no therapy is better than a therapist so inexperienced with BPD and emotional dysregulation in general. Not all therapists are created equal by any means.

2 great books to help with kiddos and your W  are:

Parenting a Child Who Has Intense Emotions: Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills ... .   

by Pat Harvey ACSW LCSW-C (Author), Jeanine Penzo LICSW (Author)

I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better

by: Gary Lundberg, Joy Lundberg (excellent for validation skills)

I think right now, it's about trying to reduce conflict so you can figure out your next moves. The books above will help you improve communication immediately.

Here are a few more links along those lines:

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

Hope this helps.

Mamachelle
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alembic
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2013, 05:43:55 AM »

Hello again mamachelle.

Thanks for the links and references. They definitely look useful.

Boundaries are definitely a problem with us.  Even the therapist noticed that.  What's the worst with us, though, is situations where one person defending their boundary actually crosses the other's boundary. We seem to get that a lot.

A great example was when two years ago my elderly father suddenly found out he was terminally ill with advanced cancer. I am an only child, he was already a widower, so there was no-one else but me to help look after him in his last days.  My father was a fabulous father to me, and was also a wonderful grandfather to our children, and it is very much in my 'core values', if you like, to look after the people I care about, and who have contributed in a positive way to my life, so it was essential for me to be able to make his last days as comfortable as possible.

The only practical way that I could see to both take care of my father (who lived 80 miles away, on his own), and also honor my commitments to my own family was to have my father come and live with us for his last days.  I assured my wife that I would do all the 'looking after' him, and there would be no additional burden on her.  I was prepared to take time off work just to be able to do that, and we have more than enough money saved to cope.

My wife, though, was completely against the idea, citing all sorts of (to my mind, spurious) practical reasons why this couldn't happen.   I was prepared to spend any amount of money, and accept any sort of practical arrangement to be able to do this for my father.  I explained how important this was to me, and asked if she could think of any possible way that we could come to some sort of arrangement where I could look after my father in this way.  She said no.

I was forced eventually to say to her that I felt this was a rather heartless position to take, and she immediately flew into a rage, ran upstairs and locked herself in our daughter's bedroom. I sat outside the locked bedroom door for about half an hour simply begging her to calm down.  This was all on the same day I found out that my father had advanced cancer, and was soon going to die.   

In the end, after sleeping on it, I came up with the solution myself. She didn't want my father in the house, so I agreed to build and pay for an extension on our house, to give him a self contained place to live in his last days.  I immediately set about contacting builders, and arranging to get planning permission for the extension.

The irony is that the building work never got started - my father began to deteriorate so quickly that I was forced to go and fetch him for his own safety, and he died before the first brick was laid.

I have no idea how we could have avoided this problem.  It would have broken me, as a person, to have to say to my father 'No, after a lifetime of being a wonderful father, I can't look after you, because it would upset my wife too much'.  That was my immovable boundary, if you like.  But I also crossed my wife's boundary, I suppose, of not having to cope with such problems by having a very ill father in-law foisted on her.


When two people seem to have such different sets of core values, I don't see how they can do anything but come into boundary conflicts with each other.

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mamachelle
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2013, 01:40:38 PM »

I have no idea how we could have avoided this problem.  It would have broken me, as a person, to have to say to my father 'No, after a lifetime of being a wonderful father, I can't look after you, because it would upset my wife too much'.  That was my immovable boundary, if you like.  But I also crossed my wife's boundary, I suppose, of not having to cope with such problems by having a very ill father in-law foisted on her.

When two people seem to have such different sets of core values, I don't see how they can do anything but come into boundary conflicts with each other.

tradad,

What you described above is more than just boundaries and is the type of situation that would strain the best of marriages. I think your solution seemed like a good compromise and I am sorry for your loss. I am also sorry your W seemed to be on a different planet when it came to your Dad but there are so many unknowns with taking care of an ill parent, that I am sure your W was afraid and possibly triggered by her own FOO (family of origin) issues.

By boundaries I really think it is good to start small. Focus on small things.

There will be an "extinction burst" (read about those) and then hopefully things will get a little better. People with BPD and especially kids find boundaries difficult but they do respect them if they are used properly.

It might be something as simple as:

Kids must put all toys away by 8pm or no TV before bed.

Then follow through.

With your W it might be, if you are going to rage at me, then I will hang up the phone.

Then follow through.

Or, something like, if you are going to cry during therapy I will walk out of the room because it makes me feel uncomfortable and I would rather work on setting up positive goals while calmly talking with you.

Then follow through.

Granted, even starting small will be hard, but I think you can start today and try to build on it.

Best,

mamachelle
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alembic
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2013, 06:42:09 PM »

Hello again Mamachelle.

I'm really very grateful that you've taken the time to reply again, and particularly that you grasp the situation so quickly and accurately. I guess there's no substitute for having 'been there' yourself, even though that's not something I would really wish on anyone else.

What you described above is more than just boundaries and is the type of situation that would strain the best of marriages. I think your solution seemed like a good compromise and I am sorry for your loss. I am also sorry your W seemed to be on a different planet when it came to your Dad but there are so many unknowns with taking care of an ill parent, that I am sure your W was afraid and possibly triggered by her own FOO (family of origin) issues.

Yeah, you're absolutely right.  She was afraid, I think, due to FOO issues.

My problem is this 'coming from a different planet' aspect never really goes away in our relationship.  We sometimes go through periods where nothing unusual or unpleasant happens, and you start to think that maybe, just maybe, things might go better this time.  And then, often just as you start to let your guard down, she will do or say something so left field that you just can't believe what she's done.  And she won't bat an eyelid. She'll even claim you're the one with the problem, for finding it at all unusual.  No amount of talking, discussing, negotiating, whatever, ever seems to iron these things out. Because just as you think you've sorted one thing out, another crops up.

It might be something as simple as:

Kids must put all toys away by 8pm or no TV before bed.

It would be really nice to have things like this in our life.  Theoretically, we have rules like this in our household.  But they are never enforced.  At least when my wife is notionally 'in charge'.  If I query it, she says things like 'Why is it my responsibility to enforce this?'

Or, something like, if you are going to cry during therapy I will walk out of the room because it makes me feel uncomfortable and I would rather work on setting up positive goals while calmly talking with you.

That would be great too. But I can't see it happening.  The problem is the therapist seems firmly on her side. During one of the sessions, I gave the therapist the ideal opportunity to comment to that effect, by saying something like 'how can we hope to make progress, with my wife crying all the time', and the therapist's response was something like 'they're just feelings, what's the problem?'

I've decided to quit therapy, at least for the time being. It's costing a lot of money, and by my assessment, the therapist is heavily biased towards my wife, and to be honest, I haven't the faintest idea why.  To give you some idea of how one-sided it is, the therapist asked us both to talk for 10 minutes about our childhood. At first my wife refused. Then she claimed I would only use the information against her, which is ridiculous, because I know everything already. Then she gave a much abbreviated account of her rather painful childhood, glossing over the worst bits, but still leaving in enough for the therapist to really get her teeth into.  Whereas I spent my 10 minutes explaining how happy I was as a child, to have two loving, attentive parents.  And guess what? The therapist completely ignored all the stuff my wife talked about, and instead spent the rest of the session trying to persuade me that my childhood hadn't been as happy as I claimed!  Every session is simply reinforcing the impression my wife already had that she is fine, and that I'm the one with the problem.  The therapist couldn't even see what my problem was with how we handled my Dad dying.

When the ideas of the therapist and mine seem so out of alignment, I can't see it ending well, so I think it's better to quit before we get much further.
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SuzyQ33

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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2013, 06:23:42 AM »

Hi Traddad, I was not "connected" to the internet for the past couple of days and could not respond... .  all the replies to your post is so helpful to me too, and I experienced exactly the same during therapy... .  My NBPDh even sometimes went so far as to suggest counselling for my "emotionally unstable state" but obviously did not mean it because he refused to go later... .  

On "recording" I would like to just say the following:  your cell phone voice recorder works best, it can be invisible, and you only need the audio actually to make your point later on.  Also save sms's to your phone.

I (unfortunately, as it makes my exit so much harder) work for my (soon to be ex-)NBPDh who is a lawyer... .  (ha ha for me) and can thus say from personal experience how attorneys appreciate the "groundwork".  You also need to seriously consider a different T as your present one will not be a good "legal" witness in your favor, maybe if you consider someone else, you need to see the T first - or explain over the phone first - what you suspect so that the T is not so biased, and can see "through" your wife's crying and other tactics ... .  unfortunately she will then discredit the T immediately, so make sure it is a new T SHE suggests, if that is at all possible.

All my best wishes to you... .  and peace
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alembic
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« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2013, 11:28:30 AM »

On "recording" I would like to just say the following:  your cell phone voice recorder works best, it can be invisible, and you only need the audio actually to make your point later on. 

[\quote]

That's a really great idea, Suzy.  I hadn't thought of that at all.  That could come in very, very useful. Thank you.

need to seriously consider a different T as your present one will not be a good "legal" witness in your favor, maybe if you consider someone else, you need to see the T first - or explain over the phone first - what you suspect so that the T is not so biased, and can see "through" your wife's crying and other tactics ... .  unfortunately she will then discredit the T immediately, so make sure it is a new T SHE suggests, if that is at all possible.

[\quote]

I've told the T that I am not going to come to therapy any more.  The response I got back was very interesting.  I didn't really explain the reason why I didn't want to continue, but she correctly guessed that I probably thought she was biased towards my wife in sessions.  She essentially confessed that she was biased towards my wife, on the grounds of her previous mental health history, because she didn't want to provoke another breakdown.  She essentially said she was being much harsher to me, because she thought I could "take it".  And she even wrote all of this down, in an e-mail!

I can't see how you can ever hope to conduct effective couple therapy if the two people are treated so differently by the therapist.  The impression it gives the more 'vulnerable' partner is that the therapist is siding with them, which just makes the conflict between the couple even worse.  It also reinforces the idea that highly emotional states, like crying all the time in sessions, are an effective way to 'deflect the heat' to the partner who isn't so unstable.  I'm really very disappointed with the T that she thought this was a reasonable way to proceed.

I would have thought that if someone is so fragile that they cannot go through a session without crying, they are better off in individual therapy, until such point as the can take part in couple therapy in a constructive fashion.

As a point in fact, I'm pretty sure my wife turned on the waterworks particularly last week, because she had done something rather unpleasant to our son, which she knew I would want to talk about at the session, and this (successfully) deflected attention from it.

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mamachelle
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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2013, 02:17:29 PM »

traddad,

I would suggest posting a new topic on our legal board soon dealing with the audio recording, and journaling... . as well as  how to handle biased therapists. Our senior members on the Legal Board can help you out.

I would really hate for you to proceed in this without getting good legal counsel from an attorney... . as well to learn what others have done and are doing here.

Best,

mamachelle
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alembic
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« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2013, 04:32:29 PM »

traddad,

I would really hate for you to proceed in this without getting good legal counsel from an attorney... . as well to learn what others have done and are doing here.

OK, will do.

Thanks again mamachelle.
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momtara
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2013, 02:11:27 PM »

keep in mind that the kids may feel bad for her, even if they prefer your parenting style.  so be prepared for that, too.
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2013, 08:48:24 PM »

Divorced a Bline with kids.

You need to keep your journal in chronolg.  order. By day and date.

That is... .  

Tues 3/22/2013.

Then make observations, cut and paste emails to the date and time.  Cut and paste (take a photo) of text messages.

You need to record everything in chronolg. order.

You will be surprised how situations and things fall into a pattern.

Just writing a journal is a one sided story.

Blines are masters at lying.  And are masters at convincing people.

You don't have a chance if it's just a "he said, she said"  situation.

Over time, steer as much communication with your Bline using email and text messages... .  or don't answer the phone and have the Bline leave a message. 

Especially if the Bline is in a rage.

It's tricky... .  but you need factual backfill to your journal.

Depending on what state you are in... .  you can record things without their permission.

At any rate, you need to document things by date and sometimes by time.

Blines can say one thing in the morning... .  via a text message... .  and the opposite in the afternoon.

Also, when using email when bantering back and forth... .  communicate  one issue per email or text messasge.

One topic, one issue per email.

YOu can't address 2 or 3 things in one email or text... .  and expect a Bline to answer each one back. Logically.

They will just pick out one thing in the email... .  one sentence... .  one word... .  and rant about that... .  to keep the focus off the main topic.

If going to court... .  it's easier to address an issue... .  if you have started out with 1 issue.

... .  

The reason why your Bline didn't want your father in the house... .  is that Blines want to isolate you from everyone around you. I bet that before you got married, you had lots of friends.  By now... .  you are problably down to 1 or 2... .  that the Bline approves of. 

Too, a Bline has no emotion. No empathy.  They can fake it pretty well, but as you probably already have surmized... .  they are empty inside.  Also, a Bline does not want you to spend one second of your time attending to an ailing father.   That would take away from you devoting 100% of your time on the needs of the Bline.

Before filing papers... .  have your documentation in order.


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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2013, 09:15:58 PM »

Hi,

I have been separated for six years and have four girls. My BPD wife has the kids during the week and I get them on weekends. I had a similar situation to yours. My experience has been that you can't separate and have it not affect the kids. When the non BPD leaves, the kids, if they are young, are almost defenceless against the BPD parent, and it is a huge problem. If I had a choice, I would have stayed and suffered for the sake of the kids. They want to move out and are now at the mercy of my wife's rages. They want to move in with me, but that will never get past a court system that favours the wife every time. It is seriously affecting my kids. The point I would make is that even though it is almost unbearable to live with a wife with serious BPD, it is harder on the kids if you leave. It is a terrible position to be in. I understand.
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2013, 03:34:49 AM »

The reason why your Bline didn't want your father in the house... .  is that Blines want to isolate you from everyone around you. I bet that before you got married, you had lots of friends.  By now... .  you are problably down to 1 or 2... .   

Hello DivDad, thanks for replying to the thread, and sorry with the delayed reply - been rather busy dealing with the problems in real life.

Yes, your quote above is spot on. I had a lot of friends before we got married, but now I have virtually none.  It didn't happen immediately after marriage - the biggest loss of friends was when our first child was born, which was a couple of years later.  If I tried to go out and see my friends, my wife said I was being unreasonable because she was left at home to look after the baby, and couldn't go out and see her friends.  Ironic, really, because she really didn't have very many friends to go and see, but I decided that it was easier just to stay at home and avoid the arguments.  Hence I ended up in the position I am now. My wife, though, later blamed me for this loss of friends, and said that I had treated my friends badly, and that's why they didn't want to see me any more, and I should use this example to take more time to consider how I interact with other people, like her.

YOu can't address 2 or 3 things in one email or text... .  and expect a Bline to answer each one back. Logically.

They will just pick out one thing in the email... .  one sentence... .  one word... .  and rant about that... .  to keep the focus off the main topic.

So true.  This picking out on thing or one word - yeah, I've seen that at lot.  My wife also talks a lot about my 'tone'.  If I pick all my words very carefully so no-one could possibly take offense to them, she then objects to the 'tone' in which I said them, claiming that it was insulting or upsetting.  It's rather hard to prove it wasn't, of course, so she successfully manages to steer the discussion away from rationality and back to emotions.



Blines are masters at lying.  And are masters at convincing people.

My wife is extremely convincing and extremely intelligent. That's what has made getting a correct diagnosis for her so difficult. So far, everyone who has ever heard her speak about our marital problems has been entirely convinced by her.  My wife believes that everything is my fault.  She breaks down in tears at the drop of a hat, and gives a genuinely moving account of the hell she has endured at my hands over the years. Within a few sentences, most people seem to be entirely convinced that she is married to a complete jerk, and that she has been a living saint to put up with me all these years.  What's even more amazing is that she usually does it without having to outright lie, or state untrue facts.  It's the sheer emotion of her 'performance' that seems to take people in, not really the facts of the situation.  She packs so much emotional punch into what she says, that people seem to visibly see that she has suffered, and she then doesn't need to give many facts to support her case. In fact, it seems cruel to question someone who has visibly suffered so much. She leaves things unsaid at the end of sentences, and implies things in what she says, but stops short of stating them outright, because doing that might constitute an untrue fact, which could theoretically be checked and falsified. But it still gives the listener the impression she wanted, without having to say it explicitly.


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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2013, 03:55:42 AM »

Hi,

I have been separated for six years and have four girls. My BPD wife has the kids during the week and I get them on weekends. I had a similar situation to yours. My experience has been that you can't separate and have it not affect the kids. When the non BPD leaves, the kids, if they are young, are almost defenceless against the BPD parent, and it is a huge problem. If I had a choice, I would have stayed and suffered for the sake of the kids. They want to move out and are now at the mercy of my wife's rages. They want to move in with me, but that will never get past a court system that favours the wife every time. It is seriously affecting my kids. The point I would make is that even though it is almost unbearable to live with a wife with serious BPD, it is harder on the kids if you leave. It is a terrible position to be in. I understand.

Hello sailing4help, thanks for getting back to me with your observations and experience. I'm very sorry that you've been there too, and that the resolution of the situation is having such a bad effect on your children.


I'm in a tricky and very delicate situation at the moment, hence the lack of recent posts, so sorry for the delayed reply.  I've just got a new job in another town, which is not commutable distance from where we live, so I'm going to have to live there, at least during the week.  My wife and I are still 'discussing' how we are going to manage this situation.

She has a part-time job, which she likes very much, but is very much tied to our current town, so she does not want to leave.   This may give me the opportunity to be away during the week, and only be home at weekends, which would be a big improvement, because it was severely restrict the opportunities for incidents between us.

What might be even better is that I am currently also negotiating to take at least one or two of the children with me.  Our eldest son would like to come with me, and possibly our middle daughter too.  If I manage to negotiate this, then I will probably pay for someone to look after them after school hours, a nanny or something similar.

My wife really does not like the idea of the children going with me, but she also knows that our son, particularly, is very attached to me, and would get very upset if he's away from me for any duration of time.  So it's looking like she may concede this, in order to try and keep the family together at weekends. I'm hoping that this solution might be a half-way house which will prevent us having to go through the court system, because as you say, it seems often that they are highly biased in favour of women.

If I can pull this off, I might be able to 'rescue' at least 1 or 2 of the kids, and try and give them a more stable environment in which to grow up, at least for the moment.

I'll try and keep you posted as things develop.

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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2013, 04:00:14 AM »

keep in mind that the kids may feel bad for her, even if they prefer your parenting style.  so be prepared for that, too.

Hello Momtara,

Yes, you're right. When our son first told his Mum that he wanted to go with me, she dissolved into floods of tears, and he felt terrible, and nearly changed his mind there and then. He said that he didn't have any idea that his Mum would be so upset, because she never seems that bothered about him normally... .  

I've tried to stress to the kids that it's their decision, and that they should try and make it from the heart.  I hope my wife will allow them the space to make that decision for themselves.

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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2013, 11:29:00 AM »

Hi,

I have been separated for six years and have four girls. My BPD wife has the kids during the week and I get them on weekends. I had a similar situation to yours. My experience has been that you can't separate and have it not affect the kids. When the non BPD leaves, the kids, if they are young, are almost defenceless against the BPD parent, and it is a huge problem. If I had a choice, I would have stayed and suffered for the sake of the kids. They want to move out and are now at the mercy of my wife's rages. They want to move in with me, but that will never get past a court system that favours the wife every time. It is seriously affecting my kids. The point I would make is that even though it is almost unbearable to live with a wife with serious BPD, it is harder on the kids if you leave. It is a terrible position to be in. I understand.

sailing4help,

Welcome

I think it is very good that you have a safe place for the kids to go away from her on weekends. Do not discount the importance of having a haven from the raging. Surely if you were there she would just be raging more at you ... .  and subjecting the kids to parental conflict is not good in any one's book. The kids will learn and have already learned coping strategies. As they get older it will be easier for them hopefully as they move out into the world and are less dependent on her.

We are here for you for support. Please check in when you can.

mamachelle
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2013, 11:33:27 AM »

What might be even better is that I am currently also negotiating to take at least one or two of the children with me.  Our eldest son would like to come with me, and possibly our middle daughter too.  If I manage to negotiate this, then I will probably pay for someone to look after them after school hours, a nanny or something similar.

My wife really does not like the idea of the children going with me, but she also knows that our son, particularly, is very attached to me, and would get very upset if he's away from me for any duration of time.  So it's looking like she may concede this, in order to try and keep the family together at weekends. I'm hoping that this solution might be a half-way house which will prevent us having to go through the court system, because as you say, it seems often that they are highly biased in favour of women.

If I can pull this off, I might be able to 'rescue' at least 1 or 2 of the kids, and try and give them a more stable environment in which to grow up, at least for the moment.

I'll try and keep you posted as things develop.

Tradad,

Please do keep us posted. This sounds like a positive development. Reducing stress all around I would hope. I often think the reason my marriage lasted as long as it did with BPDH (9 years) was the fact that he travelled for most of the years of our marriage and was not around much. It was when he quit travelling and took a job nearby that things fell apart.

Take care,

mamachelle

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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2013, 08:35:23 PM »

Hi Tradad,

Good luck with your situation. One problem I had in the separation is that we sat down and worked out a temporary arrangement with lawyers. It was a short term temporary agreement that expired and was designed to keep the status quo for a short time until a formal agreement could be drafted. She kept the temporary agreement for less than a week and has broken every single clause in it and has refused further discussion on it or an agreement. Every interaction is therefore a test of wills and she is always trying to improve her position. The point is that we had a clear agreement on the kids and that was abrogated. She will unilaterally take them during a time they are supposed to be with me and inform me after the fact. She made changes in the schooling, withheld report cards, etc. etc. so you might want to keep that in mind.  I think the only solution in my case will be a full court hearing with lawyers and psychiatrists, but I just do not have the energy at present to do that. So, try to play devil`s advocate and think of everything your wife can change and how it will affect your kids. That might modify your actions.
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alembic
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« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2013, 10:03:52 AM »

Hello again sailing4help

I am very sorry to hear about the terrible things appear to be happening to you, from what you are describing.

We haven't got to the lawyer stage yet, thankfully. In fact, my wife is generally quite reluctant to involve lawyers in our life because of the costs involved, because she is generally very careful, shall we say, with money.  At least with her own.

I would have thought in a strange way, though, that the fact your wife has broken every clause in your formal agreement is sort of good news for you (as long as you can prove that) because it should stand you in good stead for any later legal stuff that goes on.  But I take your warning very seriously.  I live in fear of extreme actions by my wife too.

Take this morning, for example.  I spotted this morning that my wife had told quite a big lie, which is unusual for her, because she is normally so good at covering things up, and it upset her greatly had I had caught her out.

My wife is German, and comes from a wealthy background.  She maintains several bank accounts, some in Germany, some in England, but she always pleads poverty, and claims she needs my financial support because she doesn't earn enough in her part-time job to support herself.

When we were on holiday in Germany two summers ago, our car broke down, and we had to get it repaired by a German garage.  The repairs were quite expensive, but my father-in-law, who had driven to our location to help get us mobile again, offered to pay for the repairs.  That was obviously quite generous of him, but I was quite surprised when he asked my wife to pay initially, and said he would reimburse her later.  My wife handed over her German bank card without even pausing to think about whether she had enough money in the account to pay the bill, which I thought was quite surprising, given that she is always pleading poverty.

When we got back to England, I asked her about it, and she claimed that I was just being distrustful and suspicious, and that there wasn't really very much money in the German account, in fact only just enough to cover the garage bill. She urged me to trust her, and tried to make me feel guilty for being so suspicious.

Yesterday after a telephone conversation with her father discussing her finances, she let slip that there was a substantial amount of money in the German bank account.  This morning, I queried this with her, and she realised her mistake, and tried to claim that the money had all been transferred into the account after the holiday two years ago, but again made another mistake, and accidentally admitted that there were already tens of thousands in the account two years ago - there is much more now.

I pointed out this morning that she had lied to me about the amount in her German account.  I didn't do it an angry or frustrated manner, I just stated the fact as neutrally as I could.   She didn't display any remorse at all at having lied, and having pleaded poverty for years, getting me to pay for as much as possible in our partnership. She instead just became very angry at having been caught out.

I've noticed this pattern with my wife.  Whenever someone else has absolute proof of her poor behaviour, she never confesses, or apologies, and seems sorry, she just gets more and more angry, and lashes out at the other person.  More often that not she threatens extreme behaviour, in the hope that you will back down first, like some sort of emotional game of 'chicken'.  If you don't respond positively to her overwrought and angry state, she ups the ante, and leads you to believe that she will behave like that in front of work colleagues or school staff in order to 'expose' the conditions under which she is expected to live.  She is extremely convincing, and seems to have no moral qualms at distorting whatever facts are necessary to gain sympathy and somehow 'win' in this power struggle.

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« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2013, 04:38:25 PM »

Hi,

I have been separated for six years and have four girls. My BPD wife has the kids during the week and I get them on weekends. I had a similar situation to yours. My experience has been that you can't separate and have it not affect the kids. When the non BPD leaves, the kids, if they are young, are almost defenceless against the BPD parent, and it is a huge problem. If I had a choice, I would have stayed and suffered for the sake of the kids. They want to move out and are now at the mercy of my wife's rages. They want to move in with me, but that will never get past a court system that favours the wife every time. It is seriously affecting my kids. The point I would make is that even though it is almost unbearable to live with a wife with serious BPD, it is harder on the kids if you leave. It is a terrible position to be in. I understand.

Hi Mamachelle,

Thanks for the kind words. I am very glad I found this site. It has a lot of good information and is positive. I am learning a lot and understand my real situation much better.

sailing4help,

Welcome

I think it is very good that you have a safe place for the kids to go away from her on weekends. Do not discount the importance of having a haven from the raging. Surely if you were there she would just be raging more at you ... .  and subjecting the kids to parental conflict is not good in any one's book. The kids will learn and have already learned coping strategies. As they get older it will be easier for them hopefully as they move out into the world and are less dependent on her.

We are here for you for support. Please check in when you can.

mamachelle

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sailing4help

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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 05:27:22 PM »

Hello again sailing4help

I am very sorry to hear about the terrible things appear to be happening to you, from what you are describing.

We haven't got to the lawyer stage yet, thankfully. In fact, my wife is generally quite reluctant to involve lawyers in our life because of the costs involved, because she is generally very careful, shall we say, with money.  At least with her own.

I would have thought in a strange way, though, that the fact your wife has broken every clause in your formal agreement is sort of good news for you (as long as you can prove that) because it should stand you in good stead for any later legal stuff that goes on.  But I take your warning very seriously.  I live in fear of extreme actions by my wife too.

Take this morning, for example.  I spotted this morning that my wife had told quite a big lie, which is unusual for her, because she is normally so good at covering things up, and it upset her greatly had I had caught her out.

My wife is German, and comes from a wealthy background.  She maintains several bank accounts, some in Germany, some in England, but she always pleads poverty, and claims she needs my financial support because she doesn't earn enough in her part-time job to support herself.

When we were on holiday in Germany two summers ago, our car broke down, and we had to get it repaired by a German garage.  The repairs were quite expensive, but my father-in-law, who had driven to our location to help get us mobile again, offered to pay for the repairs.  That was obviously quite generous of him, but I was quite surprised when he asked my wife to pay initially, and said he would reimburse her later.  My wife handed over her German bank card without even pausing to think about whether she had enough money in the account to pay the bill, which I thought was quite surprising, given that she is always pleading poverty.

When we got back to England, I asked her about it, and she claimed that I was just being distrustful and suspicious, and that there wasn't really very much money in the German account, in fact only just enough to cover the garage bill. She urged me to trust her, and tried to make me feel guilty for being so suspicious.

Yesterday after a telephone conversation with her father discussing her finances, she let slip that there was a substantial amount of money in the German bank account.  This morning, I queried this with her, and she realised her mistake, and tried to claim that the money had all been transferred into the account after the holiday two years ago, but again made another mistake, and accidentally admitted that there were already tens of thousands in the account two years ago - there is much more now.

I pointed out this morning that she had lied to me about the amount in her German account.  I didn't do it an angry or frustrated manner, I just stated the fact as neutrally as I could.   She didn't display any remorse at all at having lied, and having pleaded poverty for years, getting me to pay for as much as possible in our partnership. She instead just became very angry at having been caught out.

I've noticed this pattern with my wife.  Whenever someone else has absolute proof of her poor behaviour, she never confesses, or apologies, and seems sorry, she just gets more and more angry, and lashes out at the other person.  More often that not she threatens extreme behaviour, in the hope that you will back down first, like some sort of emotional game of 'chicken'.  If you don't respond positively to her overwrought and angry state, she ups the ante, and leads you to believe that she will behave like that in front of work colleagues or school staff in order to 'expose' the conditions under which she is expected to live.  She is extremely convincing, and seems to have no moral qualms at distorting whatever facts are necessary to gain sympathy and somehow 'win' in this power struggle.

Hi Tradad.

I think you are in a very good position relative to where you could be. Let me explain. I went through the exact same thing. The criticisms where everything was my fault, followed by the marriage counseling which didn't work followed by the slowly escalating tensions and criticism, the complete lack of trust and communication, then the distortions (lies), etc.  I didn't catch the reason for any of it until way after we were separated. You are still together, although it is tense, and you have a new job in another city.  If you pull the plug now, you will have real trouble getting to see your kids because you are in a different city, and she will get a lot more aggressive quickly when it is "over". Please believe me. It is like day and night. With a job in a different city, you have a de-facto trial separation for a valid reason and you can take your time with the decision making. I know you want an end to the pain now, we all do, but it is possible it could get worse when a major announcement on separation is made so you should think about that. I am focused on the kids, and had small kids like you have. They have been hurt by the separation, and I am wondering about your kids, 11, 8 and 4 and am particularly thinking of the 4 year old. I think you should go slowly and try different approaches to see if there is any hope of stabilizing the relationship for the 4 year old in particular. Your BPD wife is simply not equipped to react emotionally, so discussion is not in the cards. You will have to look at the literature on this site about Sympathy, Empathy, Truth and the other methods and try them. At least with your new job it gets you out of the conflict zone for a while and you can really think about how to plan the rest of your life, which is what we all have to do. I would think carefully about reacting too quickly, no matter how vicious and unfair the attacks get. In a way this is just your wife's way of crying for help as well. If you take your time making a decision, you might save a lot of grief down the road.
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« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2013, 11:24:49 PM »

Sorry for the delayed response.

I urge you to keep a chronological log of emails and voice message.

Blines are afraid of the courts.  It's the only thing they cannot control.

They will go up to the 11th hour... . and cave it.

You need to start thinking of filing contempt charges.   Get your ducks in order.

Look into a Guardian Ad Litem.   A court appointed GAL.

When going to court, you will have your attorney... . the Bline will have hers/his... . but the GAL represents the kids.

In most states, they have broad powers to interview neighbors, friends, etc.  They visit each household and read all your emails, texts from the Bline.

They hold lots of weight with a judge.

Make sure you get a GAL who is an attorney.  Not a social worker.  Most states and cities have GAL listings.

You need a GAL... . but get your ducks in order first.

Don't be afriad to file contempt motions.  Blines will scare you into thinking that you will lose... . but they are afraid of the courts. 

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« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2013, 11:41:15 PM »

I forgot to mention... .

Don't be afraid of filing contempt motions for parent alienation. PA

Blines will try and convince you that you will lose.

But if you file PA motions... . most courts will appoint a Parent Coordinator.  You want your attorney to

file a motion to have both you and the Bline evaluated... .   Psy. evaluation.

Blines do not like "outsiders" coming into their world.  It doesn't matter if you win or lose on the PA motion.

The end game is to flush out via a Phsy examination... . that your Bline is Borderline.

Blines will fight it tooth and nail. They want to keep you inside their world of lies, distortions and deceit.  They don't want outsiders coming into their world.

You need to convince yourself that you (and the courts) are the normal ones.

Get court appt GALS, psy exams and anyone to peer inside inside your Bline world.  It's a world of abnormalities.

Do it for your kids.  You can read all the literature you want... . but Blines will just delay and try and convince you that it will get better.  It will not.  They manipulate everyone around them.   The kids are just pawns.   They will always be pawn for the Bline until they turn 18... . and beyond.

Always remember... . Blines  cannot be changed.  They have no emotions... .

Move toward going to court.  You have nothing to lose.

The ultimate goal is to get supervised visitation rights when the Bline sees the kids.

Go for it.     
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